Undress/Dress Macro Addition to Classic Client

Tim

False Equivalence casting spells is not equivalent to getting dressed. Casting spells clearly affect game play the other is what we are debating.(Long rant probably edited out by moderator so I won't bother)

Once again I ask 

How does my being able to instant dress adversely affect the game or another player?
Why make a already complicated game more complicated for existing and new players?

The only argument I've seen here for the change is "they can do it and we can't" To me thats not good enough.

PS I've been an active player since 2000

cobb

Tim said:

The only argument I've seen here for the change is "they can do it and we can't" To me thats not good enough.

Actually that is a big deal. Maybe the game being fair and equal for all is not something that is important to you. But for many others, fair gameplay is very important and likely to chase away players without it.

cobb

Pawain said:

Mervyn said:

This doesn't really help anyone or change anything. You can still insta suit switch in pvp from a non medible suit to a medable suit, (obtain mana) and switch back again. You can also still just switch to a luck suit to do the last hit on a creature. There's just a small delay on being able to switch back.. which won't be an issue as the creature will then be dead.

Sounds like it is working as intended.  Like I said why add any delay?

According to Bleak, the initial suit swap takes 2 seconds. So no, it is not working as intended

cobb

For some reason on TC it is instant.  According to the devs flow chart which states it will take 1 second to undress and 1 seconds to dress, it should take a minimum of 2 seconds to swap suits the very first time.

Tim

cobb said:

Tim said:

The only argument I've seen here for the change is "they can do it and we can't" To me thats not good enough.

Actually that is a big deal. Maybe the game being fair and equal for all is not something that is important to you. But for many others, fair gameplay is very important and likely to chase away players without it.

It is fair and equal. You can chose to use CC or EC each has advantages and disadvantages YOUR choice. I'm not advocating that circle of transparency in CC be reduced to EC levels or they introduce "Ghost Mods" or.... sorry can't think of another advantage to CC 

Once again I politely and sincerely ask how does someone in EC doing an instant change affect you?

cobb

Personally I am of the opinion that 2 seconds is too short for the initial swap. That is barely any setback at all and probably barely noticeable. I would recommend doubling the initial delay

NamelessJourney

I have not really walked around with 2 full sets of gear (or more) ever, I carry other weapons, spell books, even totems with like necro and such to get back into wraith form easier after an untimely floor munching session, and other stuff.. but this thread if NOTHING else, has inspired me to walk around with various full suits in my bag. Hope whatever is getting debated comes to a satisfying resolution for all parties involved. Hope we can get more smiles and happy thoughts flowing.

JollyJade

jaytin said:

Honestly why do they still listen to this guy, he is making everyone's life miserable and the Dev team are allowing it! Every time a minority decreases the enjoyment of the majority you are going to start losing subs, please don't do this, it's a trend that has become all too apparent in the last couple of years and it has to stop. I don't want to be forced to play Mervyn Online.

I second this.

This change will only make my gameplay more tedious. But it's hardly worth getting upset about it. @Bleak @Kyronix just love to make the game more and more tedious for no reasons

There is already a huge disadvantage to swapping suits: For a moment you are loosing all your bonus stats from gear and have to regen it back.

Try swapping a +8 stam peice by another +8 stam piece. Your wont keep those +8 stam. You will have to regen it back.

Swapping full suits in PvP is a myth. It does not work in practice, no matter how bitter Mervin is about this feature used in PvM.

Someone please come up with a video of swapping full suits mid combat and proof me wrong!

It also is a fairly good gold sink when people carry more than only one insured suit.

That delay will fix nothing but only make the game more tedious. It worked perfect for many years now, until Mervin decided to go on a crusade. And the developers even listen. I am having a hrad time renewing my accounts when everytime the game only gets more and more tedious. Great job @Kyronix and @Bleak

JollyJade

A better idea to go forward: 

Add suit switching to the CC as it is in the EC. Simple. The delay does not solve any problem.

Uriah_Heep

Yeah, quite a commotion here.  Have Not seen this much talking and pointing since I was undressing at the...well, never mind.  

Mervyn

I think people are under the impression that I have some sort of vested interest or alterior motive.( I don’t care if someone switches suit, means I get more insurance from them when they die as they’re carrying 2.)

I post about bugs and issues that people complain to me about. And I do so for the benefit of the game. 

Rorschach

More clean up on this thread. If your post was removed, it was not topical or it was not within the bounds of the Terms of Service.

Tim

My problem with this change is that other than "they can do it but we can't" nobody has come up with a valid reason for doing it. The reasons that have been put forward don't stand up. If someone still thinks they are valid please post a list and I will answer them item by item. 

The only one I've seen with any validity at all is the luck suit change. That is a minor advantage that doesn't adversely effect anyone else and to my mind way to much work for little return (Just carry a 10th anniversary sculpture).

The following is not intended as an attack but trying to save the moderators from having to keep rapping knuckles.
   
If "you post about bugs and issues that people complain" to you about you are saying that you have thought about it and looked into it and agree with them. If you are not endorsing their complaint simply tell them how to go about doing it themselves. Other wise we end up with "its a problem that need to be fixed but I'm not sure why"

Tim

Opps last post slightly off topic I'm of course referring to the change to the EC client. At this time I have no comment on additions to CC as I don't use it and don't see how any change would affect me.

The_Higgs_1

I have seen this used in pvp on atlantic.  Not full suit changes but people swapping headgear and jewelry to go from melee bush parry to archer in a instant.  Swapping captn john hat and jewels to hunters headdress and jewels.  It makes a big difference when you can get +45-+60 skills per jewel.

Mervyn

Tim, yes I do indeed endorse the fix, while it impacts me negatively as I will receive less gold from insurance from killing other players. I too pvm and would find it handy to be able to insta switch to a luck suit on my tamer, however I do understand that it is better for the game to have this issue fixed. I’m always willing to take one for the team. I don’t care about myself. 

Pawain

What a Saint!

Uriah_Heep

*rigs for silent running to stay outta trouble*

cobb

The_Higgs_1 said:

I have seen this used in pvp on atlantic.  Not full suit changes but people swapping headgear and jewelry to go from melee bush parry to archer in a instant.  Swapping captn john hat and jewels to hunters headdress and jewels.  It makes a big difference when you can get +45-+60 skills per jewel.

This makes me think the proposed delay is too short. Not the initial swap (which definitely should not be instant) but swapping suits the 2nd time. 

By switching only 3 pieces they can do this. There is 1 sec delay per item, so the "big" delay would be only 3 seconds. Every 3 seconds they can go from being a bush parry melee to an archer.

Drowy

I dont see why a 1 sec undress makes the game better than an instant armor swap. Exchanging armor parts with others without undressing is a common thing in modern games. People wont buy luck parts, craft them or hunt for them because of the 1 sec undress. Most people have luck suits and wont change them if you have to undress or not. So i dont see why we need the undress. The 1 sec delay per item for redressing is useless anyways.

In PvP there is probably only a small minorty using instant swap in combat. But for me the problem isnt the the instant suit swapping but being able to have so many extra skill points. But if someone has build such a character and suits and can manage everything in battle, I call him smart. I dont see this being a big factor in pvp.

You the instant swap an issue. I dont even see an issue, I call it a feature.

You also stated that you have been complained about the instant swap from day 1. I havent seen anyone complaining about it until you came up with it. There was even a longer thread on stratics in 2016, where someone asked for the feature for the classic client. And noone complained about the feature at all.

So my vote is for instant suit switch without any delay. And as we are at evening CC with EC, my next wish would be instant switching weapons in CC other than the 2 last equiped ones.

NamelessJourney

I was actually kind of glad UO didn't have armor swapping for whatever reason, because in modern games say Final Fantasy XI (not real modern but it's been trying to adapt) gear blinking is like how the game is played, you have a weapon skill set (or pieces), tp set (whatever you'd probably walk around in normally), and bizarre circumstance set (I call it that, but let's say you want to get the most out of a job specific ability you'd toss on some Flee +15 flippers or whatever). You're constantly instantly switching gear pieces around, and until recent times there was no way to keep people from blinking in and out of existence while they drew aggro and died repeatedly because healers could not heal them. Now there is a "Fixed appearance" thing, you put on your bikini or whatever and turn that feature on and can put your other armor on and still walk around in your pixelated underwear but have the advantage uber stats. To me, I don't like gear flapping constantly, it's banal, and just pushes my imagination to the extremes, because 1 you're in a heated battle.. totally not making sense to pull off a plate mail tunic and slide into a leather one while decapitating a dragon simultaneously to get a little more mana regen or whatever. 2. I'm pretty sure the designers of the game didn't set out initially with the idea that gear flipping would be a staple of their mmo, regardless of how the players migrated to this ideology or not, they did begin to develop for this behavior instead of just making, well, good well rounded gear. 3. I think if I have to go to a dungeon or whatever and bring 2-3 suits to "compete" I'll just not bother and find something else to do, part of the reason I'll never bother with FFXI again.

 That being said, I'm inspired to carry a luck get up to get the last couple of strikes on things because of this thread. Also, I submit the idea for a blacksmith/tinkering item called a tinfoil hat. I'll totally macro that into whatever my luck suit turns out like.

Mervyn

I have also witnessed insta suit swap in pvp even on a low pvp skill level shard of Europa. I’ve seen a couple of dexxers using elemental damage weapons and insta switching jewels and talisman to have +magery/eval to curse. 

ohgr

I've been a big fan of one key suit changes once I switched to EC. I don't pvp much these days so I can't speak to that aspect. However, I tend to solo champ spawns, peerless and other high level monsters and have built multiple templates based on suits. For example, I run a discord, tamer, mage, spellweaver.  Typically, I start a long fight with a musician suit, that includes a specialized fishing pole, jewelry and arms to max the applicable skills. Once discorded, I switch to my battle suit which evolves around maintaining a pet in battle with applicable skills. Also, during the fight I'm using mana suits and other spell damage increase suits. At the end of the fight, I'll end with a luck suit and high spell damage increase for maximum Word Of Death. This seems complicated, it is; and, my insurance is through the roof.  I am constantly switching in some cases; and, fights often take an hour. Honestly, timing is everything when soloing high level fights and I hope that these changes do not occur because it will retard my already cumbersome play.

Of course this is one iteration of my suit switching macros. There are many other examples were changing the instant suit switch will lesson my positive game play experience. 12 seconds seems a bit heavy handed. I feel there are other solutions that will address the problems in which you are trying reconcile. As a 20 year veteran of UO, this doesn't seem like a good change, more like a giant step backwards.

The_Higgs_1

By the way the person I saw do the swap was using CC and a 3rd party program to do the insta swap, which means even if they put this through people already have a work around to insta swap anyway.

Tim

Hopefully I'm just flogging a dead horse but I did say I would respond. Most of the examples would not trigger the second change rule so would only be 2 seconds or would not affect another player. ohgr's case being the second type, if thats how he wants to play more power to him. 
The PVP armor swap for skill gains is more problematic but would still not trigger the second change rule unless there is a very long cool down and should be handled by a different fix. 

I had assumed that when they changed vampiric embrace to stop working when the casters skills dropped below the minimum they did the same for all spells, if they haven't they really should. Every time a spell affects the game it should check to see the caster has the required skill not just when cast.

For fighting skills I think a better fix would be to treat equip like a spell. In combat and only in combat the change will take X amount of time like a spell and be disruptable like a spell. Provided that if disrupted no gear is added or removed. This change would make the jump out of the bush and sucker punch crowd happy and give me another reason to stay off Fel.

And once again when I tell a macro to put something into an equipment slot only an ______ would not know I want what is in the slot now to be removed. To me unequip should only mean remove something and leave the slot empty. Don't make me rewrite all my macros and make them much more complicated just assume the unequip command is there. (May have already been dealt with haven't checked TS been too busy designing keeps)

Mervyn

There’s nothing to test on TC, you can currently still insta switch suits, contrary to what was said by the developers, presumably because they didn’t realise that the equip/dress macro works on EC without having to unequip/undress.

Pawain

Looks like they decided and will put it Live:

In addition to the Publish 103 content being released to TC 1, the following is being released with the latest client patch and will be live on all servers beginning with Japan this evening,

Dress Macro Update

• The action timer after the use of the Dress macro has been increase from 1 second to 1 second per item equipped.

Please translate @Mervyn.  Thanks.

Kyronix

Thank you everyone who participated and provided feedback.