Undress/Dress Macro Addition to Classic Client

Mervyn

I’ll be interested to see how the CC dress macro handles morph earrings. As currently on UOA I have to set 2 dress macros, one to dress morph earrings and human gear, the other to dress elven gear or else UOA all but crashes as the macro unsuccessfully tries to equip elven items before the morph earrings get equipped.

Rorschach

I have removed many irrelevant postings. The topic is in the title.

jaytin

Please leave PvM alone and please leave the EC alone.

Mervyn

When you say “leave PvM Alone” can you please expand and explain how you’re currently using the dress macro in PvM and how the changes will impact you.

Petra_Fyde

I'm a bit lost as to what all the fuss is about.  This will add functionality to the classic client, while having minimal impact on the enhanced. It won't affect me at all. It's an undress macro, not an unequip one. Does anyone really swap an entire suit 3 times in as many seconds? 

Cinderella

the first time I used EC, I said to myself we need this Dress macro for CC. I mainly got on EC to check the numbers on potted plants. I love that choice on EC but I can't play it for very long. And I don't know why but I can't download Pinco's. So hearing that this could/would be available for CC, it makes my tamer happy. Cause I could fully suit up without having to touch my body, therefore I could actually be able to pre-cast an invis & run up to grab my body. Now I have to wait for it to be clear before I can make a run for it, after I have already dragged all my clothes on.

Sliss

Dress undress functionality in PvM is a fun, engaging mechanic that gives players something extra to do inside and outside of combat. Apart from letting players kill mobs a little faster (oh no - less grind!) it has no downsides. Nerfing it in EC to please a couple of vocal players will accomplish nothing but decrease player engagement.

Captain_Lucky

Either both clients can do it or neither. Either way is fair.

Pawain

Mervyn said:

When you say “leave PvM Alone” can you please expand and explain how you’re currently using the dress macro in PvM and how the changes will impact you.

You admit the changes will no affect the Tram gameplay but you still want it in Tram. Can you explain why?  I would love @Kyronix to hear why he needs to modify the code in tram.  Other than Mervyn wants it that way.

cobb

Sliss said:

Dress undress functionality in PvM is a fun, engaging mechanic that gives players something extra to do inside and outside of combat. Apart from letting players kill mobs a little faster (oh no - less grind!) it has no downsides. Nerfing it in EC to please a couple of vocal players will accomplish nothing but decrease player engagement.

Well according to Pawain, these changes will have zero impact on pvm in tram, so I don't think you have anything to worry about

Pawain

cobb said:

Sliss said:

Dress undress functionality in PvM is a fun, engaging mechanic that gives players something extra to do inside and outside of combat. Apart from letting players kill mobs a little faster (oh no - less grind!) it has no downsides. Nerfing it in EC to please a couple of vocal players will accomplish nothing but decrease player engagement.

Well according to Pawain, these changes will have zero impact on pvm in tram, so I don't think you have anything to worry about

THEN WHY DO IT?!!   Keep it in Fel.

And YOU can not come up with a reason it needs to be done in Tram. 

A total waste of Developers time.  We would rather have a mannequin that shows the stats of the armor.

Everyone here that is not a developer knows that this is a game troll by Mervyn.  He wants a fel only shard so bad that he thinks running players out of tram will get him what he wants.

I will give him this opportunity to deny this.  The only thing this change will do is cause annoyance, that is his goal.

cobb

Pawain said:

cobb said:

Sliss said:

Dress undress functionality in PvM is a fun, engaging mechanic that gives players something extra to do inside and outside of combat. Apart from letting players kill mobs a little faster (oh no - less grind!) it has no downsides. Nerfing it in EC to please a couple of vocal players will accomplish nothing but decrease player engagement.

Well according to Pawain, these changes will have zero impact on pvm in tram, so I don't think you have anything to worry about

THEN WHY DO IT?!!   Keep it in Fel.

And YOU can not come up with a reason it needs to be done in Tram. 

A total waste of Developers time.  We would rather have a mannequin that shows the stats of the armor.

Everyone here that is not a developer knows that this is a game troll by Mervyn.  He wants a fel only shard so bad that he thinks running players out of tram will get him what he wants.

I will give him this opportunity to deny this.  The only thing this change will do is cause annoyance, that is his goal.

if it doesn't affect your gameplay at all, why even complain?

also please stay topical sir

Pawain

This is the topic.  Mervyn is the one who wrote hundreds of emails to the developers to put a delay on the EC dress/undress macro so he would win more battles in Fel.

You want players not to be able to switch to a Luck suit before a Mob dies. This change does not fix that.

Why waste coding time to fix nothing?

cobb

no the topic is dress/undress. this thread is not about mervyn. 

can the mods do something about this rampant derailing of this thread?

Pawain

Asking you 2 to tell us why this change is needed in Tram is not derailing the thread.  Just because neither of you can come up with a reason is not derailing a thread.


Im waiting on WHY is this change needed in Tram? 

These two questions should be answered in a positive way before changes are made to the code:

How will this make the game better.
Will this bring new or returning players to the game?

How about YOU answer those two question about the topic of Dress/undress?

Cookie

Pawain said:

Asking you 2 to tell us why this change is needed in Tram is not derailing the thread.  Just because neither of you can come up with a reason is not derailing a thread.


Im waiting on WHY is this change needed in Tram? 

These two questions should be answered in a positive way before changes are made to the code:

How will this make the game better.
Will this bring new or returning players to the game?

How about YOU answer those two question about the topic of Dress/undress?

I think we should delete Trammel to fix this.

It will get rid of the whining entitled players such as yourself, and bring back all the great players who left because of whining tossers.

I notice how when you whine about castles and tamers and suchlike all day, it's all ok, we leave you to it, but you can't give the same respect and courtesy with an actual game balance fix that is required, and you sense it isn't all about you?

Get out of this thread, you should be banned for trolling.

Mervyn

Pawain I’ll answer your question, the issue is not facet specific. Almost every game mechanic can be bypassed using insta dress swap. Just because it is used against mobs, doesn’t make it okay. No the mobs don’t care, they don’t complain but it makes the game less challenging. People may not realise it but when they’re not challenged, they got bored. 

It was never intended for people to be able to insta swap to a luck suit for the last hit on a mob to achieve the best loot, it negates the whole value of the property.

Having 2 different game mechanics for 2 facets is a) more complicated, b) unnecessary c) probably more difficult to do.

Even if it were easier to just add the delay in fel, it would not be in keeping with all other intended game mechanics to allow insta suit swapping in tram. You’re not supposed to get the benefit of 55 LMC AND be able to meditate after, that is why the armour is NON MEDIBLE etc etc etc for all the other 100 game mechanics that get bypassed.

Also, neither yourself, @jaytin, nor @Parnoc have bothered to describe despite being asked politely how you’re currently using insta suit swap in trammel and how the change will affect you. 

Also, I have never emailed any party nor had private discussion with any developer on this particular issue and have voiced my opinions openly via the forums using logic and reason, I suggest you do the same.

Cookie

Mervyn said:

It was never intended for people to be able to insta swap to a luck suit for the last hit on a mob to achieve the best loot, it negates the whole value of the property.

... it would not be in keeping with all other intended game mechanics to allow insta suit swapping in tram. You’re not supposed to get the benefit of 55 LMC AND be able to meditate after, that is why the armour is NON MEDIBLE etc etc etc for all the other 100 game mechanics that get bypassed.

Cookie said:

Balance, is also important.

Some questions that have to be asked, and answered, are how do you envision the game be played? Is multiple suit swapping a thing, is it considered part of the gameplay, or an exploit? How does it feel to play the game in this style ? Skett's question was valid, is the real answer to fix the Suits and Armour, so this is not a gameplay requirement? Sometimes - I'd like to know a bit more about the Vision of the Developers behind their logic - how they see or feel the game should be played, and what they are trying to achieve.

Mervyn - your point here, I completely agree with.

It's why I asked the question I asked in my post.

The Developers have gone to great care to design certain styles of suits, and now it can now all be negated almost instantly. So back to my question, before we even go any further re Balancing the two clients out, what is the Vision for the game itself? Is this in fact an Exploit?

Do the suits themselves need fixing? Does one of the clients in fact need fixing?

Is making both clients exactly the same, actually the answer?

I really doubt when they made EC, they expected this result in terms of gameplay - to negate their entire concept of suit design? Or are they ok with this? Is this now an acceptable style of play?

Xare

Pawain said:

THEN WHY DO IT?!!   Keep it in Fel.

And YOU can not come up with a reason it needs to be done in Tram. 

A total waste of Developers time.  We would rather have a mannequin that shows the stats of the armor.

Everyone here that is not a developer knows that this is a game troll by Mervyn.  He wants a fel only shard so bad that he thinks running players out of tram will get him what he wants.

I will give him this opportunity to deny this.  The only thing this change will do is cause annoyance, that is his goal.

On topic, it could actually be an increase in developer time to make it facet specific.  Can I ask why you are so adamant against changing it?  What do you use it for that you need it to be this big a deal?

Mervyn

Cookie, I don’t think the suits need fixing at all, yes I think it was an exploit, you design a suit with certain mods you want, you wear the suit. You wanna swap suits fine, first take off your current suit, is that really so unreasonable and crazy?

they put in an undress macro into the EC for a reason but this bug made it obsolete. This would be a total total non issue if they fixed it on the first ever EC client release hot fix but people have been abusing it for so long, the change has become an issue for a couple of people. 

I don’t want to go off topic but much like insta pet logging, we didn’t used to have this, but then it was introduced and everyone has gotten used to abusing it for so long and if they changed it the designated safe space would be completely booked out. 

Sliss

Cookie said:

I think we should delete Trammel to fix this.

It will get rid of the whining entitled players such as yourself, and bring back all the great players who left because of whining tossers.

I notice how when you whine about castles and tamers and suchlike all day, it's all ok, we leave you to it, but you can't give the same respect and courtesy with an actual game balance fix that is required, and you sense it isn't all about you?

Oh right, the great mistake of Trammel. Watch the recent postmortem where the original devs called open world PvP one of their greatest mistakes that lost UO tons of players, and one they tried to fix 7 times.

As far as "whining" about castles and such - there is a tiny difference. PvP "whines" inevitably end up negatively affecting PvM. Given rejection of @Pawain's suggestion to limit this "balancing" to Fel, it seems that negative effect on PvM is very much the goal.

Mervyn

Sliss said:

 it seems that negative effect on PvM is very much the goal.

*positive impact

Pawain

Xare said:

Pawain said:

THEN WHY DO IT?!!   Keep it in Fel.

And YOU can not come up with a reason it needs to be done in Tram. 

A total waste of Developers time.  We would rather have a mannequin that shows the stats of the armor.

Everyone here that is not a developer knows that this is a game troll by Mervyn.  He wants a fel only shard so bad that he thinks running players out of tram will get him what he wants.

I will give him this opportunity to deny this.  The only thing this change will do is cause annoyance, that is his goal.

On topic, it could actually be an increase in developer time to make it facet specific.  Can I ask why you are so adamant against changing it?  What do you use it for that you need it to be this big a deal?

Will it bring players to Ultima Online or make players play longer?

It has worked the way it works for years. It clearly is not an issue in Tram.

I am for things that make the game grow and more fun. This will do neither. Response?

Mervyn

One individual bug fix is unlikely to bring any returning players, the same is true for any bug fix, however It'#s a step in the right direction, it depends on whether or not you actually need to disarm before re-arm.

I know a lot of people who just don't like to use the EC and feel forced onto it to compete with a warrior thanks to the insta weapon swap ability without having to disarm. Balancing the clients is always a good thing, they're still not balanced as there are casting and running speed differences.

cobb

of course it will help bring players back and make players play longer.  That is what happens when you promote fair gameplay. 

Bilbo

Mervyn said:

It was never intended for people to be able to insta swap to a luck suit for the last hit on a mob to achieve the best loot, it negates the whole value of the property.

You are so wrong, I remember reading a thread about luck and it was asked when luck was applied and @Kyronix said it was at the time of the kill and even said that you could swap into a luck suit just prior to the kill and it would still count.  So back then they knew it.  You sir are just whining because the spawners are doing this when you try to attack them and steal the spawn.  You come up with all this LA LA LA bs when if you just told the truth you might get a better reaction.  This was all about suit swapping at champ spawns and PvP. 

CovenantX

Some people just like to complain about anything that has the slightest effect on even the most meaningless of things.

If what Bleak said is true, -The delay only kicks in after you switch from one suit to another, and attempt to switch again..  Nobody should have a problem with that.

CC users will be happy, they'd no longer need a third-party program to dress/undress...it won't stop people from using them though...

@Bleak ; @Kyronix

Are the any plans to allow macroes to be set for consumable items (potions/apples etc) through the default CC?

Mervyn

I too will be interested to know if the delay still occurs with third party programs, I imagine and hope it would. 

Bilbo trust me, I have no personal interest other than the improvement of the game. Killing spawners has never been difficult, in fact I once made a thread saying that PvM damage caps should be the same as PvP damage caps so the spawner’s PvM suits will be the same as a PvP suit to give them more of a chance to defend themselves against people like me, however the idea was shot down by people like you. 

Xare

Pawain said:

Will it bring players to Ultima Online or make players play longer?

It has worked the way it works for years. It clearly is not an issue in Tram.

I am for things that make the game grow and more fun. This will do neither. Response?

I'm sorry, but you didn't answer the question.

1) I don't think anything this simple would increase the player base.

2) Counter-point - This game has been buggy as all hell for years, and that's still a problem.  Just because something has been that way for years doesn't make it right.

3) Fun is relative.  Growth, well, to be honest, ditching the CC and focusing on the EC to bring it on-par with most modern MMOs would be the best way to do that.  Not gonna happen though.

Now, you want to answer my question or are you going to keep evading?

Mariah

This thread is getting way too personal. Please leave personalities out of it.

If you have a serous objection to the proposal as described by Bleak, please give pertinent details. Bear in mind that the delay of one second per item occurs not in switching from main suit to secondary, but in switching back to the main suit.

In blaming this proposed change on a particular player you give too much importance to the player and too little credit to the developers who give consideration to the merits and downsides of ANY player suggestions as to how they will affect the game before reaching a decision whether to implement them or not.

Stop the blame game and start giving actual reasons and examples of how this would adversely affect your gameplay.