ORE AND WOOD

Deraj

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

@ Deraj
Let me see if I have this right
Recall to mine spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie
 Packie full select next packie ( I am sure a script writer could add this part)
Recall to next spot
 Auto Mine
 Auto fill Packie  so on and so on until all packies full
Recall home and auto smelt.

IMHO this sounds like a Scripters dream because you have almost automated everything for them.

I've already addressed this in my initial post in this thread. I want to kill runebook/recall mining.

You can not kill it for scripters without yet again punishing the honest player.  There is only one way to fix this and EA/BS/UO will never do it or they would have done it many, many years ago.

So if I make suggestions that make it easier for players you accuse me of helping the scripters, if I make suggestions that limit scripters you accuse me of punishing players.

The aforementioned ideas are mentioned to show that a lot of the excessive clicking that makes up the monotony of mining can be massively reduced. Since a lot of users here are having trouble imagining what a world without fire beetles could be like, I attempted to show them. Scripters will always power through the clicking, it doesn't matter to them if it's one click or a thousand clicks. The devastating efficiency of script mining is made possibly first and foremost by runebook mining, and to a lesser degree by fire beetles.

Sure, even in my preferred scenario, scripters could still find a way by setting up miners to walk along pre-programmed routes. Yet at the same time, this method is fraught with greater risks, and their efficiency and their impact is severely diminished. You and other users were telling me earlier that scripters don't use fire beetles because of the risk of losing them. Now imagine how much riskier it would be for them if they had to have a pack animal in tow and couldn't readily recall away with it. How much less efficient would that be for a bot?

But this isn't merely about killing scripting. It's about increasing the value of the reward while making the process a little less efficient from a logistical point of view, that reduces the impact of scripters and at the same time provides better depth and meaning to the long-dead miner playstyle.

Bilbo

Last Object Last target macro is your friend, where do you get all this massive clicking and from what I understand the EC has it even easier.  Scripters are already using rails.  Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers or UO needs to publish programs that do this for honest players to put us on a even playing field, problem solved.

Deraj

So, don't make it less monotonous for players, but make it even easier for everyone to flood the market with useless resources. Got it.

Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers

That's not going to happen. Get real.

Mariah

Keep it civil please.

Bilbo

Deraj said:

So, don't make it less monotonous for players, but make it even easier for everyone to flood the market with useless resources. Got it.

Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers

That's not going to happen. Get real.

So last object, last target macro is to monotonous.  You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.  Everytime a method is introduced to stop scripting the scripters just rewrite their scripts and the honest player is even further punished and your suggestions are no different.  Scripters will recall to a cave and use a rail script to strip mine until packie is full recall home empty packie recall to cave rinse and repeat.  So how is this going to help the honest player?  Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Deraj

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

So, don't make it less monotonous for players, but make it even easier for everyone to flood the market with useless resources. Got it.

Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers

That's not going to happen. Get real.

So last object, last target macro is to monotonous.  You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.  Everytime a method is introduced to stop scripting the scripters just rewrite their scripts and the honest player is even further punished and your suggestions are no different.  Scripters will recall to a cave and use a rail script to strip mine until packie is full recall home empty packie recall to cave rinse and repeat.  So how is this going to help the honest player?  Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Yes, hitting a key for each and every strike of the pickaxe is monotonous, and not having to do that it a considerable boost to the UX. Scripters are already auto-mining, so I don't see what your issue is. By itself it doesn't have a meaningful impact on yield.

You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.

I am not trying to be condescending when I say this, but there is a concept here that you don't have fully worked out yet. We've all been buzzing around a certain principle, that when you make it harder for the scripter, you make it harder for the players, and when you make it easier for the player, you make it easier for the scripter. But the edge that scripters will always have over the non-scripters is their ability to power through clicking. If you turn a 1-click process into a 1000-click process, it's the non-scripter that has to endure the mounting dreariness of each and every click; the scripter on the other hand couldn't care less, because, like you correctly said, they will readjust their script and move on. My message to you is that by taking certain steps to reduce the # of clicks in a process, we're evening the playing field between the scripters and non-scripters, but at the same time, paving the way for new logistical challenges that make it harder to script efficiently. This is a key point: my goal here isn't to end scripting. because I believe that is impossible; my goal as far as scripting is concerned is to reduce its efficiency. Recall-mining and fire beetles are far bigger threats to efficiency than a simple auto-mine function.

You are completely wrong in your statement above. Perhaps you are thinking that it if ore went straight into the pack horse, it is easier to script. Yes, that is one or two extra lines of code the scripter does not need in their script. But in a situation where pack horses are a necessity, the scripter does not care if 10 clicks are involved in moving the ore from backpack to horse, or if 0 clicks are involved. If anything, a self-interested scripter would want mining to be boring and have as many clicks as possible in order to discourage competition from non-scripters (to be clear, I'm not accusing you of being a self-interested scripter).

Again, you are failing to take into account that in my preferred scenario, recall-mining would not be a thing, and that a lot of my points rests on this assumption. A miner would have to walk to the mountain and then walk back to the forge. Yes, even this is possible to script, but a) it's less efficient and b) fraught with greater risk. If you are going to respond to me again, kindly acknowledge this point - you don't have to agree with it, just acknowledge it, so we don't have to spend any more time clarifying it.

The pack horse, just like the fire beetle, is in danger of being killed - this is the exact point that you and other who disagree with me have been making. This does reduce the efficiency of script mining.

Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Seriously listen to yourself. You're talking about killing mining for everyone to get rid of people taking advantage of flawed, monotonous gameplay. Even if it was no longer profitable to script mine and the scripters "went away", they'll be back the moment it becomes profitable again.

Bilbo

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

So, don't make it less monotonous for players, but make it even easier for everyone to flood the market with useless resources. Got it.

Ban all Scripters/Multiboxers

That's not going to happen. Get real.

So last object, last target macro is to monotonous.  You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.  Everytime a method is introduced to stop scripting the scripters just rewrite their scripts and the honest player is even further punished and your suggestions are no different.  Scripters will recall to a cave and use a rail script to strip mine until packie is full recall home empty packie recall to cave rinse and repeat.  So how is this going to help the honest player?  Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Yes, hitting a key for each and every strike of the pickaxe is monotonous, and not having to do that it a considerable boost to the UX. Scripters are already auto-mining, so I don't see what your issue is. By itself it doesn't have a meaningful impact on yield.

You do understand that your auto mine/put in packies benefits scripters way more than the honest player.

I am not trying to be condescending when I say this, but there is a concept here that you don't have fully worked out yet. We've all been buzzing around a certain principle, that when you make it harder for the scripter, you make it harder for the players, and when you make it easier for the player, you make it easier for the scripter. But the edge that scripters will always have over the non-scripters is their ability to power through clicking. If you turn a 1-click process into a 1000-click process, it's the non-scripter that has to endure the mounting dreariness of each and every click; the scripter on the other hand couldn't care less, because, like you correctly said, they will readjust their script and move on. My message to you is that by taking certain steps to reduce the # of clicks in a process, we're evening the playing field between the scripters and non-scripters, but at the same time, paving the way for new logistical challenges that make it harder to script efficiently. This is a key point: my goal here isn't to end scripting. because I believe that is impossible; my goal as far as scripting is concerned is to reduce its efficiency. Recall-mining and fire beetles are far bigger threats to efficiency than a simple auto-mine function.

You are completely wrong in your statement above. Perhaps you are thinking that it if ore went straight into the pack horse, it is easier to script. Yes, that is one or two extra lines of code the scripter does not need in their script. But in a situation where pack horses are a necessity, the scripter does not care if 10 clicks are involved in moving the ore from backpack to horse, or if 0 clicks are involved. If anything, a self-interested scripter would want mining to be boring and have as many clicks as possible in order to discourage competition from non-scripters (to be clear, I'm not accusing you of being a self-interested scripter).

Again, you are failing to take into account that in my preferred scenario, recall-mining would not be a thing, and that a lot of my points rests on this assumption. A miner would have to walk to the mountain and then walk back to the forge. Yes, even this is possible to script, but a) it's less efficient and b) fraught with greater risk. If you are going to respond to me again, kindly acknowledge this point - you don't have to agree with it, just acknowledge it, so we don't have to spend any more time clarifying it.

The pack horse, just like the fire beetle, is in danger of being killed - this is the exact point that you and other who disagree with me have been making. This does reduce the efficiency of script mining.

Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Seriously listen to yourself. You're talking about killing mining for everyone to get rid of people taking advantage of flawed, monotonous gameplay. Even if it was no longer profitable to script mine and the scripters "went away", they'll be back the moment it becomes profitable again.

You do know that if you hold down a key it repeats, LOL.  You do not understand Scriptsf esp if you have no clue what a rail is.

Deraj

You really do have nothing to say, do you? Let's go back to your must stunning point though:

Also maybe the market needs to be flooded so the scripters lose their control of the market and go away.

Tell me honestly, if you don't care if the market is flooded and mining is killed, why are you so fixated on scripting? Think about it. They're not preventing you from mining. They're not getting in your way or even interacting with you on the off-chance you happen to spot one. So if you're not concerned with the one thing that they do that hurts all miners, which is over-saturating the market with resources, then how exactly are they affecting you? How are they ruining your personal single player adventure?

Bilbo

Please learn about scripting and the fact that your keyboard has a repeat function and also how to make MACROS with the CC or EC which ever client you use.  Everything you have tried to do a scripter can work around so alls you are doing is making it harder for honest players.  There are 2 ways to get rid of a scripter #1 ban them and we all know UO will not do that or #2 make it were it is no longer profitable for them to script.  Nothing UO has done has stopped scripting and nothing you have proposed will do it either because they will just rewrite their scripts.  GOOD BYE I AM DONE.

Lady_Storm

Who wants to kill being able to recall into my mining caves and doing my usual 60 minute mining ??   Back off jr.  Stop trying to ruin the last fun thing I got to do!!!

I happen to like mining.. chopping wood is for getting my mind off what's going on around me, fishing is my go to if I want a little surprise pop up...

Look..   the pirate ships are fine.. yes I think that is where more of the 60k deeds are from that are showing up.   Ore elemental's are fine, I do wish for a way to get the Taint and the rest of those regs outside of idoc's! I never liked those hunts...1 time was enough.

I am not thrilled when I go in a huge cave/passage in malas and get 90% iron ore and barely find anything above gold. Unless I use a tool and or a gar pick... Even the big gems are slow to get..

I am super tired of ask for 1 small boon and have to give up 10x that in things you have or do in return... This has been the UO motto after the first creator dev  was kicked off.  For once id love to just get a small adjustment in the higher end ore to stick around longer.. if I find a verite or val spot  and only get 10 pieces and loose 1/2 of it due to my 105* miner not making it. This would peve off the Pope too.... and he don't play UO.

Bilbo

Lady_Storm said:

Who wants to kill being able to recall into my mining caves and doing my usual 60 minute mining ??   Back off jr.  Stop trying to ruin the last fun thing I got to do!!!

I happen to like mining.. chopping wood is for getting my mind off what's going on around me, fishing is my go to if I want a little surprise pop up...

Look..   the pirate ships are fine.. yes I think that is where more of the 60k deeds are from that are showing up.   Ore elemental's are fine, I do wish for a way to get the Taint and the rest of those regs outside of idoc's! I never liked those hunts...1 time was enough.

I am not thrilled when I go in a huge cave/passage in malas and get 90% iron ore and barely find anything above gold. Unless I use a tool and or a gar pick... Even the big gems are slow to get..

I am super tired of ask for 1 small boon and have to give up 10x that in things you have or do in return... This has been the UO motto after the first creator dev  was kicked off.  For once id love to just get a small adjustment in the higher end ore to stick around longer.. if I find a verite or val spot  and only get 10 pieces and loose 1/2 of it due to my 105* miner not making it. This would peve off the Pope too.... and he don't play UO.

  

Butcher

Deraj has some excellent thoughts. Reading his last list of suggestions I caught myself thinking wow if only mining really was like this I’d be mining this evening. My problem with it right now is that while it was ok in 2003, it’s insanely boring and time consuming and involves too many unnecessary moves right now. Streamline the process, make it as painless as possible and that might change something. Also I agree that some folks do not grasp that a bot doesn’t care about the amount of clicks, drags and so on, but a real player like me does. I played on a lot of unofficial servers including ones where AFK resource gathering is allowed. I had my miner bot working for me all night every night and I know that making mining easier for real players changes NOTHING to someone doing that. It’s plus or minus a couple of lines of code. It doesn’t help scripted all, they don’t care. But it’s an entirely different deal for real miners. Please devs at least consider what Deraj is writing about, this is some of the best stuff I ever read on this topic.

Deraj

Lady_Storm said:

Who wants to kill being able to recall into my mining caves and doing my usual 60 minute mining ??   Back off jr.  Stop trying to ruin the last fun thing I got to do!!!

Respectfully, Lady Storm, this isn't just about you. I have a fire beetle. I have runebooks with mining spots. I have abused the gold elementals in Blackthorn's Dungeon and I have benefited a great deal from all of these things. Now I am advocating that they be nerfed. If the True and Honest™ players are actually being honest with themselves, then they should be able to see past their own personal self-interest and realize that sometimes a playstyle, while perfectly legitimate, can still exist contrary to other playstyles or even to the integrity of the gameplay itself. I do not see anyone here shedding tears for the playstyles of old upon whose bones our own playstyles now stand. Since no playstyle is therefore sacred, instead let us look to the gameplay itself and ask: is it fair? Is it challenging? Is it rewarding? Does it contribute to a multiplayer/community dynamic? My answer to all of these questions is "no".

Butcher said:

Deraj has some excellent thoughts. Reading his last list of suggestions I caught myself thinking wow if only mining really was like this I’d be mining this evening. My problem with it right now is that while it was ok in 2003, it’s insanely boring and time consuming and involves too many unnecessary moves right now. Streamline the process, make it as painless as possible and that might change something. Also I agree that some folks do not grasp that a bot doesn’t care about the amount of clicks, drags and so on, but a real player like me does. I played on a lot of unofficial servers including ones where AFK resource gathering is allowed. I had my miner bot working for me all night every night and I know that making mining easier for real players changes NOTHING to someone doing that. It’s plus or minus a couple of lines of code. It doesn’t help scripted all, they don’t care. But it’s an entirely different deal for real miners. Please devs at least consider what Deraj is writing about, this is some of the best stuff I ever read on this topic.

I feel similar about mining back in ye old day. In 2000 I was trying to mine out of the Minoc Mines, sometimes without a pack horse. The risk of losing ore from dragging it to the forge was prevalent because of how many players were running around. It was fun in its own way, though it's not the exact situation I would want to see come back. Aside from a few easy buttons tossed our way over the years, the fundamentals of mining have never been looked at or optimized. This is why I have a hard time seeing the fire beetle as a proper UX improvement and not as a game-breaker that nullifies the entire point of smelting altogether.

I think it's important to emphasize though that the main problem with scripting is that they oversaturate the market with resources. The more resources we have floating around without a stronger economic demand to consume those resources, the less valuable they are and the less viable/meaningful mining is as a playstyle altogether. My point with a lot of the suggestions I put forward is that, we can decrease the efficiency of scripting, and at the same time streamlining the manual mining process. Instead, mining has become more efficient in all the wrong ways.

Lady_Storm

Your focused on scripting...  While I go mining the old fashioned way.. packies and fire bug in tow.

While you think your ideas will curb the scripters it will not...even back in the days before all the new fangled equipment and all  scripters were in full swing.  They stood there mined another player/character came in (usually a red) picked up their load and off they went. 

It wont work.   They will figure a way to exploit it and we honest mining people will be hurt because your aimed to get them when it would be way better to make the market for it poof...

Think about it.   When it is hard to get the price goes up and more desireable to the scripters to get. But if it was all too easy to get and the price hit the floor the value for them would be worthless and they would go to a more lucrative venue

Deraj

Your focused on scripting...  While I go mining the old fashioned way.. packies and fire bug in tow.

The attention I give to scripting in this topic is focused on what scripting reveals to us about mining. There is no dark magic in scripting. All scripting does is take the actions players must perform to accomplish a task and do it 10x more efficiently. The real benefit of scripting is that it is showing us, screaming at us in fact, the problems inherent in the design. Yet these are ignored and scripting treated as the root problem, nothing gets solved and everything gradually gets worse.

While you think your ideas will curb the scripters it will not...even back in the days before all the new fangled equipment and all  scripters were in full swing.  They stood there mined another player/character came in (usually a red) picked up their load and off they went.

You say that, though you either cannot or will not respond directly to my points. Scripters can adapt, yes we are agreed on this. I have also said that in my ideal scenario it would still be possible to script. However the efficiency of scripting would be severely limited by my proposals and no one can honestly deny this. If a pile of ore has to be walked to a forge and cannot be recalled, it will absolutely harm the efficiency of scripting. Still possible to script, again yes, but bots excel at repetitive tasks, not tasks that require more complex decision making. So my proposals get rid of the little repetitive stuff and add challenges that humans are better equipped to solve.

It wont work.   They will figure a way to exploit it and we honest mining people will be hurt because your aimed to get them when it would be way better to make the market for it poof...

Think about it.   When it is hard to get the price goes up and more desireable to the scripters to get. But if it was all too easy to get and the price hit the floor the value for them would be worthless and they would go to a more lucrative venue

It genuinely kills me to see you say this. Do you really not see that what you are saying here completely undermines your entire argument?

Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?

Does anyone remember what the problem with script mining is at all? Or have we hated it for so long we don't remember why we hate it anymore? Script mining over saturates the market with ores, it lowers the values of the ores, it makes the mining playstyle less viable for your True and Honest™ players. So if you are going to propose that the value of ores be annihilated, you are directly attacking the viability of mining for the True and Honest™ players. But worse than that, you seem not to see that if that were to happen, the scripters would indeed come back if ores ever did gain value again. If you don't care about ore values then why do you care about scripting?

My suggestions increase the challenge to players in a way that decreases the efficiency of scripting, while increasing the efficiency of certain parts of the mining process that scripters already power through anyway. Your suggestion is to kill mining so the scripters go away. What you are saying is extremely unreasonable.

Bilbo

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

Bilbo

Lady_Storm said:

Your focused on scripting...  While I go mining the old fashioned way.. packies and fire bug in tow.

While you think your ideas will curb the scripters it will not...even back in the days before all the new fangled equipment and all  scripters were in full swing.  They stood there mined another player/character came in (usually a red) picked up their load and off they went. 

It wont work.   They will figure a way to exploit it and we honest mining people will be hurt because your aimed to get them when it would be way better to make the market for it poof...

Think about it.   When it is hard to get the price goes up and more desireable to the scripters to get. But if it was all too easy to get and the price hit the floor the value for them would be worthless and they would go to a more lucrative venue

You dear LADY are 1000% correct, keep up the good fight and GOD forbid the DEVs do anything with this SCRIPTERS DREAM of a fix, make me wounder why it is being pushed so hard.

Deraj

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

If your only resort is "cuz its against the rules" then you have no argument. This is a discussion about game design, not the legality of scripting. You are not participating in good faith by making false/baseless assumptions about me and refusing to respond to my points.

Once again, I have never claimed that scripting wouldn't be possible with my suggestions, and have even noted it. I am talking about reducing the efficiency of scripting by changing the gameplay, which is definitely possible, and my suggestions go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

Bilbo

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

If your only resort is "cuz its against the rules" then you have no argument. This is a discussion about game design, not the legality of scripting. You are not participating in good faith by making false/baseless assumptions about me and refusing to respond to my points.

Once again, I have never claimed that scripting wouldn't be possible with my suggestions, and have even noted it. I am talking about reducing the efficiency of scripting by changing the gameplay, which is definitely possible, and my suggestions go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?  I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?  You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.  Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.  This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".  Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

Faeryl

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

If your only resort is "cuz its against the rules" then you have no argument. This is a discussion about game design, not the legality of scripting. You are not participating in good faith by making false/baseless assumptions about me and refusing to respond to my points.

Once again, I have never claimed that scripting wouldn't be possible with my suggestions, and have even noted it. I am talking about reducing the efficiency of scripting by changing the gameplay, which is definitely possible, and my suggestions go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?  I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?  You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.  Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.  This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".  Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

Again... You really do need to quit with your narrow viewpoint and learn to read and actually comprehend what other people are saying.

Deraj has never once claimed that his ideas would stop scripters. And frankly, his ideas aren't making things easier for them, they're already bypassing all the clicking anyways. Making it less painful for those of us actually sitting at the computer isn't helping them. They're not there, and they don't care. It's a few lines of script for them.

And frankly, I find it rather inappropritate that you're taking a simple discussion and twisting it into some type of subtle accusation that he's a scripter and uses illegal macros, which is not the case at all.

Bilbo

Faeryl said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:
Answer me this, because no one else has been bold enough to answer. Why are you concerned with scripting at all? Why does it bother you? How are the scripters harming you? How are they obstructing you from mining? They're not bothering you, right? So what's your beef with them?.

Because they are cheating plain and simple and EA doesn't give a damn so we live with it.  You CAN NOT stop a scripter, FACT, they are way smarter than you, another FACT.  The only player you are hurting is the honest player with you ideas, FACT.  I that BOLD enough for you.

If your only resort is "cuz its against the rules" then you have no argument. This is a discussion about game design, not the legality of scripting. You are not participating in good faith by making false/baseless assumptions about me and refusing to respond to my points.

Once again, I have never claimed that scripting wouldn't be possible with my suggestions, and have even noted it. I am talking about reducing the efficiency of scripting by changing the gameplay, which is definitely possible, and my suggestions go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?  I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?  You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.  Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.  This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".  Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

Again... You really do need to quit with your narrow viewpoint and learn to read and actually comprehend what other people are saying.

Deraj has never once claimed that his ideas would stop scripters. And frankly, his ideas aren't making things easier for them, they're already bypassing all the clicking anyways. Making it less painful for those of us actually sitting at the computer isn't helping them. They're not there, and they don't care. It's a few lines of script for them.

And frankly, I find it rather inappropritate that you're taking a simple discussion and twisting it into some type of subtle accusation that he's a scripter and uses illegal macros, which is not the case at all.

His whole idea is to make it harder for scripters.  How many times has UO tried this and totally failed, scripter always found a way around anything UO did and all they did was hurt the honest player.  Now we have someone that "CLAIMS" he has a fix
AUTO MINE helps both
AUTO FILL PACKIE helps both, scripters will now use packies
doing away with fire beetle hurts honest player, scriptors do not use
doing away with recall hurts honest player, scripters will just rewrite their scripts

He thinks that mining requires a lot of key strokes where in fact with the cc and a small macro requires very few strokes and I am told that the EC can basically do his AUTOMINE function so please tell me he know anything about mining.  Does he know what a recall script is which most scripters use and yes miners recall to their fav mining spots too.  Does he know what a rail is.  there are some really complex scripts out there and he will do nothing to stop them all he will do is hurt the honest player and make it easier for the scripter to make more money.  He says that people will not address his points and there have been many address his points, he just doesn't want to hear it.  But yet he will not answer basic questions when it comes to resource gathering or even how to do the basic things but yet he say he knows how to "FIX" UO.

There are only 2 ways to fix this problem
#1 ban all scripters/multiboxers and we all know that will never happen, EA depends to much on their money.
#2 Allow all players to use scripts and make the playing field equal and again we all know that will not happen, see #1.

And we could also throw in the SHUT DOWN RMT SITES and we all know that will never ha[ppen for the same reason as stated above.

If knowing how things really work is considered being narrow minded then I guess I am narrow minded.

Deraj

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?

I haven't designed any. And I don't need to in order to participate in a discussion about game design among other players.

I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?

Congratulations on your 20 year run. To answer your question, I can stop him from recall-mining with my suggestions, which I bolded in your quote. I cannot stop him from programming a route, which the scripter you observed would have to do if he wished to continue scripting. This brings up many possible risks such as running into monsters. His pack horse is exposed. The complexity of the decision making logic he has to include in his script increases considerably as now he has to deal with such issues as how to get back to the forge when the packhorse is full at any given point in his route. His overall yield is undeniably diminished from having to walk rather than recall and if fire beetle smelting is removed from the equation, the yield is diminished even more. To reiterate, bots excel when it comes to repetitive tasks. But walking around a mountain, filling up a packhorse, and walking back to a forge is not as simple as recalling around with a fire beetle. Is it impossible to script? Doubtful. But the situation I described is far more complex from a decision-making angle than our present situation.

You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.

You seem to be having a lot of trouble with this concept. Auto-mine and auto-fill are less clicks for the player. This is undeniable. You're telling me now that it's easier for the scripter. Yes, it is 2-3 less lines of code in their script, I acknowledged this in an earlier post. Except, there is barely any impact on yield. Both the scripter and the True and Honest™ player are benefiting from this, except this wouldn't change the scripter's reality of having to now transport that ore back to the forge. Streamlining this part of the process will not have a significant impact on yield for either of them. The difference is now the the player's life is a little easier, and the scripter continues to be indifferent because they never cared about the number of repetitive clicks their bot had to do while they slept anyways.

Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.

Absolutely I am. But at the same time, I also want there to be more demand for sources. I want players to be able to jump on their miner, pound some rocks and hack at some trees and make a tidy profit for their time. The scripters will still be off doing their thing, but their yields won't be the same. They will not be able to over-saturate the market with resources and as a result there will be a greater demand and greater rewards for the True and Honest™. I want trade, a better economic ecosystem, scarcity of resources, and player interaction. What I don't want is all of us living in our little single player bubble worlds filling up our houses with piles of 60k ingots so we can literally throw them in the garbage for clean up points. This is a sign that things are messed up.

This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".

Not really, this is more like dismissing all of my finer points and pretending that it's addressing my "whole" point, which doesn't make sense because you are unable to dismantle anything I've said. This isn't just about prices, this is about trade and economy. Restoring the value of ore is a part of that. If you cannot give me a reason why scripters are detrimental to the gameplay, you have no place in this conversation.

Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

I could offer a snarky reply to your snarky question, but in all seriousness, yes. I am very familiar with macros. I play the CC with no real interest in the EC. Auto-mine, no matter how you want to spin it, is a superior and no-brainer way to improve the UX over "holding my finger on a key" as you suggested. Scripters are already auto-mining, so what's your beef.

Bilbo

Deraj said:

What games have you designed that makes you think you have a fix for uO?

I haven't designed any. And I don't need to in order to participate in a discussion about game design among other players.

I have been here for 20 years and have seen some very long scripts where a scripter recalled in a walked a cave dropping all iron and when full recalled out.  I watched him do it ever half hour for a week and you think you can stop that?

Congratulations on your 20 year run. To answer your question, I can stop him from recall-mining with my suggestions, which I bolded in your quote. I cannot stop him from programming a route, which the scripter you observed would have to do if he wished to continue scripting. This brings up many possible risks such as running into monsters. His pack horse is exposed. The complexity of the decision making logic he has to include in his script increases considerably as now he has to deal with such issues as how to get back to the forge when the packhorse is full at any given point in his route. His overall yield is undeniably diminished from having to walk rather than recall and if fire beetle smelting is removed from the equation, the yield is diminished even more. To reiterate, bots excel when it comes to repetitive tasks. But walking around a mountain, filling up a packhorse, and walking back to a forge is not as simple as recalling around with a fire beetle. Is it impossible to script? Doubtful. But the situation I described is far more complex from a decision-making angle than our present situation.

You want to make it even easier with your auto mine and auto fill packie, WOW  There is a point about the game design that you are clueless about, is that no matter what you do a scripter will ALWAYS be more efficient than the honest player so by making it in your words harder for a scripter than you make it 10 times harder for the honest player.

You seem to be having a lot of trouble with this concept. Auto-mine and auto-fill are less clicks for the player. This is undeniable. You're telling me now that it's easier for the scripter. Yes, it is 2-3 less lines of code in their script, I acknowledged this in an earlier post. Except, there is barely any impact on yield. Both the scripter and the True and Honest™ player are benefiting from this, except this wouldn't change the scripter's reality of having to now transport that ore back to the forge. Streamlining this part of the process will not have a significant impact on yield for either of them. The difference is now the the player's life is a little easier, and the scripter continues to be indifferent because they never cared about the number of repetitive clicks their bot had to do while they slept anyways.

Are you trying to drive up the prices of resources and the next question would be why are you so intent on doing it, do you have a reason.

Absolutely I am. But at the same time, I also want there to be more demand for sources. I want players to be able to jump on their miner, pound some rocks and hack at some trees and make a tidy profit for their time. The scripters will still be off doing their thing, but their yields won't be the same. They will not be able to over-saturate the market with resources and as a result there will be a greater demand and greater rewards for the True and Honest™. I want trade, a better economic ecosystem, scarcity of resources, and player interaction. What I don't want is all of us living in our little single player bubble worlds filling up our houses with piles of 60k ingots so we can literally throw them in the garbage for clean up points. This is a sign that things are messed up.

This address you whole point, you are making it easier to bring back even more scripter by driving up prices with your "FIX".

Not really, this is more like dismissing all of my finer points and pretending that it's addressing my "whole" point, which doesn't make sense because you are unable to dismantle anything I've said. This isn't just about prices, this is about trade and economy. Restoring the value of ore is a part of that. If you cannot give me a reason why scripters are detrimental to the gameplay, you have no place in this conversation.

Do you even know how to make a legal macro in CC or EC

I could offer a snarky reply to your snarky question, but in all seriousness, yes. I am very familiar with macros. I play the CC with no real interest in the EC. Auto-mine, no matter how you want to spin it, is a superior and no-brainer way to improve the UX over "holding my finger on a key" as you suggested. Scripters are already auto-mining, so what's your beef.

You win.  This and EJ should just about do in UO.  Please DEVs do everything this player wants and make it even harder for the HONEST PLAYER to play your game and more profitable for the scripters to even make more script accounts to get more profit and watch even more UO players leave because of the unstopped cheaters.

Deraj

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

Bilbo

Deraj said:

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

I already gave you an answer and you just dismissed it, so to me that says you approve of cheating and that breaking the rules is ok.  Good for you that tells me all I need to know about you.

Deraj

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

I already gave you an answer and you just dismissed it, so to me that says you approve of cheating and that breaking the rules is ok.  Good for you that tells me all I need to know about you.

You are dodging the question. I am not denying that scripting is against the rules, and I acknowledge that it is. I am asking you to explain to me why it's bad for UO's gameplay and how it is ruining your playstyle.

Bilbo

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

I already gave you an answer and you just dismissed it, so to me that says you approve of cheating and that breaking the rules is ok.  Good for you that tells me all I need to know about you.

You are dodging the question. I am not denying that scripting is against the rules, and I acknowledge that it is. I am asking you to explain to me why it's bad for UO's gameplay and how it is ruining your playstyle.

OMG I am not dodging a thing I already told you I am against cheating and anything that helps cheaters, do you UNDERSTAND and you dismissed it.  IMHO YOU APPROVE OF CHEATING
Maybe you should go back and reread.  WOULD you please use your brain do you really not know why cheating is bad in a game are you serious?  How old are you?  Seriously, how old are you that you would even ask that.

Butcher

Bilbo I think you fail to understand that Deraj’s suggestions don’t really make life difficult for real players. I’m 100% on board with what he is saying and I feel that if mining was improved like that I would actually enjoy the process. For me all the supply and demand stuff makes sense but I can think of a million better ways to farm gold. It’s the journey that I want to be fun and comfortable as it should be 20 years later after the game was released. And I also think his suggestions would actually hurt bots a lot. I remember how risky it was to incorporate any walking into a script because the chance for something to go wrong goes through the roof. A lag, a monster, a wandering healer, another player happening to be standing on a tile on your way and your entire script could be derailed. Because every step of the route is preprogrammed and your bot is not equipped with the ability to walk around something and get back on track. That’s how it used to be a few years ago. I doubt that much has changed since then.

Deraj

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

Can you answer this question for me:

How is script mining harmful to UO's gameplay and your experience?

I already gave you an answer and you just dismissed it, so to me that says you approve of cheating and that breaking the rules is ok.  Good for you that tells me all I need to know about you.

You are dodging the question. I am not denying that scripting is against the rules, and I acknowledge that it is. I am asking you to explain to me why it's bad for UO's gameplay and how it is ruining your playstyle.

OMG I am not dodging a thing I already told you I am against cheating and anything that helps cheaters, do you UNDERSTAND and you dismissed it.  IMHO YOU APPROVE OF CHEATING
Maybe you should go back and reread.  WOULD you please use your brain do you really not know why cheating is bad in a game are you serious?  How old are you?  Seriously, how old are you that you would even ask that.

Bilbo, I have already explained why I think scripting mining is bad for UO, and I'll even say it again: it oversaturates the market with resources, lowers their value and makes mining as a profession less viable for everyone. Now I am asking you to explain why you think it's bad, so let's make this super easy. Fill in the blank:

"Cheating is detrimental to UO because ______________"

AQHF

Being required to use pack animals and walk sloooowly over long distances to get to and from mining would bore the heck out of me and make mining unfun. I am fine for it being an option for other people if they d find it fun, but I also tried the pack animal thing in my early days of mining and I really disliked it. I ended up stabling my two pack horses and getting a riding horse and galloping between my mining spot and forge. Having to walk at such an excruciating slow pace is so... excruciating.