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Comments
Randomized spawns in the recall-enabled facets, but fixed spawns in Ilshenar and Eodon? Stuff gets better the further from a moongate you are. Break it up a lot too, so you're on the move a lot.
When I say old system its that static system which I remember it was supposed to work like that but looks like it never did.
As for scripters a anti cheat system would help curb most, not to mention why isn't there a system in place already that looks for players doing just resource gathering 24/7.
There's no-one I know that mines all day saying it's the greatest feeling ever...
Careful, you'll bring out the "I mine all day and night sometimes because it's relaxing, just like fishing, and I never cheat never ever ever" people.
Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it. Some of us have been waiting a long time for this simple addition.
While I’m sure it would take some good research and coding, it would solve every issue brought up in this thread.
Wood: 50%
Other woods 50%, divided in 21 increments.
I'm dead set against taking wood back to fixed locations as it was 99% impossible to get some woods on my LOW POPULATION shard from the recall LJs back then. The chopping sounds from a Frostwood tree (that only gave maybe 10 chops) that was near my alliance's player town north of the mountains above Luna only went quiet when the tree was empty. Getting a swing in on the tree in before it was empty was more luck than skill.
And that was 10-12 years ago, when real players actually had a PRAYER against scripters, because they were mostly competing against a local guy (even if the local guy was that guy whose houses all burned - he at least SOLD on most of the shards), not people scripting for easy transfer and sale on Atlantic.
As for Ore, I'd love to see ALL ore elementals get natural spawns, DC elementals get upgraded to 25 large like the others, and DC elementals spawn from Gargoyle Pickaxes. Most of my gold comes from the Blackthorn spawn, as does most of my agapite (via transformation cauldrons).
The ONLY smelting talisman that isn't a waste of Blacksmith points is the gold one, and ONLY because of that dungeon spawn. A combat-capable miner can use up a talisman in 60-90 minutes. The maps are a joke, currently. Making the timer on a talisman a WEEK, instead of a day, might help, but that's treating a symptom, NOT the disorder.
Increase the map yields; increase mining yields in general - 1 ore currently produces 0-2 ingots (depending on fails), compared to a SINGLE chop producing 10-11 logs. 2 ore weighs more than 11 logs or 22 boards. Reduce the weights and allow more ore per dig.
High-output spots remain high-output regardless of the ore color. High-color percentage spots remain that percentage level, even if a different color (or even, if it goes to iron and gets raised back to DC or Shadow with tools). You don't need fixed ore sites as much if you can get what you need from enough random spots (Especially using the GPA and PT) or maps that are worth using.
I would like to suggest an alternative. The maps should not be BOD rewards, but these should spawn like other treasure maps, and require a cartographer to decode. Mining already pairs with cartography so it's not a huge leap. The real bonus though is that you're not spending a ton of ingots to earn the map, thus nullifying the majority of the yield you receive from it, meaning you'll get more yield simply by removing the cost of acquiring the map through BODs.
Beyond that though I don't understand why you want to increase overall ore yields so drastically. Perhaps you could elaborate, because in my mind increasing yields only makes the mining playstyle less viable as the reward for going to a rock and hitting it with a shovel becomes less worth the monotony one has to suffer to achieve it. I'd rather yields go down so that ore value goes up, so more players are motivated to mine.
-----
And here's a general question for everyone, regarding fire beetles. Can someone explain to me what is the gameplay value of smelting at all in our current situation? What's the point? Why even have smelting and fire beetles at all? Why not skip all the pretense and have miners pluck ready-made ingots straight from the dirt? This is not an actual suggestion - what I am trying to point out is that once upon a time there was a natural barrier, where consciously designed or not, that was an important factor in the value of ingots. Later this entire barrier was almost completely nullified, yet we all go on thinking that smelting and fire beetles are a necessity. They contradict each other. Smelting had meaning because you had to take the ore back to a forge. Fire beetles remove that requirement, and thus neither should even exist if we are going to go the "neuter the game" route.
Lumberjacking is similar, but even worse. Why bother having logs at all, if you can convert them into boards with the very tool used to harvest the logs and with no skill or cost requirement. Why not just skip the nonsense and remove logs altogether rather than harbor some illusion of "realism" that doesn't actually provide an economic contribution?
I feel Deraj has made many good points, and elevated the conversation beyond a mere "Randomized bad, don't like, want easier" to one of merit, so a shoutout to him/her.
Keep in mind, I am one of those strange people who DO like to harvest/craft just for the sake of it. I've never sold a piece of equipment, or an ingot, or a BOD. I like to collect crafting materials and make things. That's it. I'm not a really big fan of PvE or PvP. I'd love to play the entire game as nothing but a merchant again, harvesting and crafting for guildmates or other players. Not for profit, but to fill that societal role. (We won't get into player denisty.. I know Catskills is basically a dead shard, but it's home.)
Here is my take on mining, and to a lesser extent, lumberjacking.
- The Fire Beetle - Unfortunately, I cannot live without this, as there is no remedy for the UX issue it resolves - Drag and drop.
- BOD's - I am also in complete agreement that the bank rate is way, way, WAAAY to low. The BOD should never have been banked for so little. 2% is ludicrous.
- Resource Randomization - I have no problem with random resources, I really don't. But again, I think the rates at which you get those higher tier resources are a bit.. Lackluster.
- Harvesting -
I won't get into things like Runics and Recipies, which are a whole other ball of wax, but I hope something comes of this discussion.I never had a problem doing this in my younger years, mining a mountain and dragging the ore pile back to a forge to be smelted, but quite frankly, my wrist doth protest much if I try to do it these days. And back then, there was only Iron, so only 1 pile to drag. Now, it could be several piles of different types, at varying distances. This is, quite literally, painful to do.
While I concede that it is a bit of an overwhelming advantage, the alternative can be worse. My solution? Allow crafters (Tinkering/Carpentry/Blacksmithing maybe) to make Portable Forges with so many charges that can be placed anywhere in the world for a duration and smelt either a limited amount of ore, or only work for a certain amount of time. Scripters won't use it, it nullifies the need for the fire beetle (Which at face value, I don't like being required to have a mount of a certain type just to be able to mine - God forbid it dies as I have no tamer or pet rez potions), and gives crafters more prominence.
I think the higher the rarity of BOD, the higher the bank rank would be. This would make logical sense - The scarcer the resource, the more it's worth. As Deraj pointed out, I don't see an issue with banking lower level BOD's to get access to higher level items at a more reasonable rate.
I would suggest decreasing the points required for lower tier rewards (And lowering the corresponding BOD value as a whole, for things Bronze or lower, for example), and increasing the bank rate on a scale. Maybe small iron armors are worth 10%, and large BOD's 15%, but as you increase the BOD material rarity, that bank value can go up as high as 75-100% of their original value (For things like Valorite BODs).
Now the scarcity of the resource affects the scale. If by some other means, higher tier resources become more common, drop the scaled value. Halve the scarcity, halve the percentage. But certainly more than 2% for smalls. 20% for large, OK for IRON, but not for Apagite and higher.
Having said that, I do appreciate that there are ways you can mitigate that in small ways, with Gargoyle Pickaxes, Prospectors tools, Resource Maps, and Cauldrons of Transmutation. These are wonderful ideas, but not implemented with crafters in mind. Just look at how you get them, or how they're used.
Prospectors Tools - Through BOD's (See point #2). A better alternative to spending valuable BOD bank points would be to make them craftable, maybe with lower tier resources and gems. Lumberjakcks need an equivalent of this, as wood is even more infuriating to find.
Gargoyle Pickaxe - Through BODS (See point #2). The bigger problem with THESE is, i will likely have to fight an elemental. I love playing my crafting mule, just as a crafter and nothing else. I don't want to have a combat skill to be able to dig a hole in a mountain.
Resource Maps - Covetous Void Pool or BODS (See point #2). Again, I don't want to have to do combat to be able to harvest, and the bank rate is too low for BODs to be worth it.
Cauldrons of Transmutation - Covetous Void Pool or BODS.. See the same for Resource Maps, and the fact that these are from Alchemy BOD's, which I'm not sure are any better or worse. Plus, the ratio of 3-to-1 really doesn't make them worth it to begin with.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make autoharvest until depleted. And smelting too, if possible. This would make my need for UOAssist or EC macros go away, and I couldn't want anything more.
That's my 2 gp. Thanks for listening.
I don't get enough gold ingots from mining, so I go to blackthorn to get more gold ingots when I need them. The reason that I need so much gold is tied to the BOD system. I need to make lots of PoF for crafting. The bribery system to get the right BoD is random, so if it doesn't bribe up to exceptional, 20 gold BoDs are the first non-exceptional BoDs that will make PoF. I have filled all my non-gold PoF BoDs, but have a bunch of gold ones sitting around waiting for me to farm Blackthorns. I will never get enough gold ingots from actual mining to fill them.
Things I find fun when mining:
Using garg axes to scare up elementals.
Getting lots of ore from one spot.
Returning 3 or more times to a high end ore spot and having it give me more of the same.
Getting the big gems
My fire beetle.
My fire beetle's cute buzzing sound.
When my fire beetle doesn't get riled up by a rat on that it senses through cave walls.
Getting enough ingots I can actually fill a BoD, without it taking forever.
Adding ore elementals doesn't have to be a continuous spawn of all types. Heck, people have been suggesting an elemental-based champion spawn for ages, given that all the other super slayers are represented (Repond, Arachnid, Reptile, Undead, Demon, and Fey). You could even tie it into the lore of past events (where we had the ore elemental invasions around the time alacrity scrolls were introduced, and then blackrock elementals). You could have (difficulties mixed up to provide more complementary pairings, and you could make the elementals tougher than the mined-up versions) DC & Gold eles (since both already have natural spawn) for the first wave, Shadow and Agapite for wave 2, Copper and Verite for Wave 3, Bronze and Valorite for Wave 4, with the boss being a blackrock elemental. With the fast decay at champs, combined with the special abilities of the elementals, it would actually have not that much ore looted (Shadow and Valorite are immune to pets and most spells, copper and valorite have damage reflect, bronze and valorite have a ranged attack, and verite and valorite BREAK non-blessed/insured gear). Partially, because how many people are going to have a mixed party of weapon, magic and pet users with mining? The only way fire beetles would survive there is if trained up (requiring high taming), and they would be ineffective against much of the later spawn as an attack pet (what's the tamer gonna do - beat the valorite eles to death with a staff of the magi while the beetle tanks, all while taking 50% damage back plus the eles' attacks?).
BTW, my T-Hunters ALREADY have gone back to doing maps without mining, as there was little effect if you know what to do and have access to a Davies Locker (maybe an extra minute looking). Once you get the degrees of the location from the DL, you got at worst a 15x15 step grid to search - and some T-hunters using EC can find the exact spot just using the in-game maps and lining them up. Trying to link ore maps to carto is just trying to justify the horrible decision to make mining more important to T-Hunting again (that didn't actually work in practice). And, I'm saying that as a THB Guildmaster on my shard with 2 T-hunters.
This is not nostalgia speaking. It is an observation of the design of the game, how we act and why we do what we do. When I look at the situation as it is now, and observe all of these players spending their time on a monotonous activity in their own little single player bubble worlds feverishly mining resources with values that have been severely depreciated not merely by scripters which are a symptom of a problem, but the root problem itself of the easy mode buttons that have been implemented without thought to any kind of economic balance, to be used primarily in yet another closed single player system of BODs and mule-crafting and contributes very little to any kind of functional economy, I see that as a problem. I won't argue that the way it worked in ye old days had its tedium and monotony (most of which comes from the old way, somewhat contrary to your point). But one thing old UO had that new UO doesn't, is a functional economy that supported the viability of mining and crafting as a *primary* playstyle.
No, I do not wish to merely return to the ancient past and leave it at that. I too wish to address the monotony and UX of mining. I only think that solving that problem by increasing the amount of ore we can harvest is a hamfisted, short sighted, unimaginative, and ultimately destructive path. I look at the current situation and see an utter travesty. If your solution is just "more ore!" then I don't really know what to tell you other than have fun with your multiple 60k piles of useless metal and no one to trade it with.
Thank you for the clarification on this, and while I personally have mixed feelings about ore elementals in a champ spawn, I can accept that the nature of the spawn itself could possibly be made not to provide unbalanced ore yields. My problem with ore elementals is what the post before yours wrote:
This should tell us all we need to know about the danger of naturally spawning ore elementals. What is the point of mining when you can get far more ore yield from combat? It's a game-breaking precedent.1) If you were able to get ore maps in the wild like treasure maps, you'd have a lot more ore maps than if you were getting them only from BODs.
2) Without the ingot cost of acquiring the map through BODs, you are effectively increasing the yield of the map without actually increasing the amount of ore in the vein.
3) Anything involving maps should belong in the domain of the cartographer, on principle. Mining pairs with cartography; just because you yourself can get by without it does not invalidate the pairing. Here we have an obvious opportunity to strengthen a skill dynamic and foster more skill diversity but instead let's just press the easy button again and neuter the game some more.
Hmm....
Back in the day (97).. the world of UO and the crafter were at war... You had dangers of collecting your precious cargo... no forge to smelt it down to a carry size was a major issue. Till a few GM's took pity and placed forges at key sites of miners.. Remember we didn't have the precious golden ore smelting buggies.. We did have Pks who loved to hunt us down and steal away hours of work.
This was also the case with lumbejacks... but they did have it a tad bit easer they could reduce the logs to boards and cut the weight in half. Packies were not boneded so you went through them like water.. and they didn't quite follow you when you recalled..
The one thing I could count on was the set spots to dig or chop...
I do not know who's big idea it was to shuffle the ore and wood types but if I find out he is getting such a nuggie!
Look The dev made many ways to get the ore / ingots /logs /wood type even now in the new bods are ways to get maps and tools to use. Prospector tools, Gar picks, ... even reward items.. Stumps, and Ore Carts. Merchant and Pirate ships... Don't even get me started on ore ele's
The big issue is the higher end ore and wood. The chance of finding a Frostwood tree is harder then winning the lotto! Btw that rock hammer we get from bods...sux big time...
Up the chance of a spot changing to a higher ore or log...
Yes they did and made it way more complicated than anyone wanted. Changes to mining should have ended with Prospector tools, Garg Picks and mined up ore elementals then they would not have had to add all this other nonsense to make ore and wood obtainable. And in the case of the maps and tools stuff that almost no one uses. I just want to be a miner/LJ/Crafter again and head out to the whatever spots and mine up what I want or need that day. I don't want to deal with bod reward tools and maps, wonder where the ore or wood is, or as much as I like high seas be merch ship pirate. I don't want a house full of 100+ mining carts and tree stumps. I just want to go back to what was not broken to start with instead of making the system more stupid than it already is.
I don't have rose colored glasses in this matter. I had zero problems back in the day finding ore spots and later rare wood trees that were not being scripted to death. The scripters pretty much rotated off the same 3 runebooks worth of locations, that were low risk and easy. I found more than a few high yielding locations that had some spawn that made it scripter unfriendly but no problem for a mule with 75 macing and tactics that could heal. Fel scripters I loved it was like free ore and wood when you whacked them and yes I would roam fel looking for where they farmed and would whack them.
Come with me on a journey a moment, let's explore the possibilities. I do not pose these as Deraj's Official Suggestions™ but as examples to illustrate the underlying principles of what I am talking about. Okay, so *just as an example* let's pretend the fire beetle was removed entirely. Instead of assuming the worst let's consider what streamlined mining could look like.
1. I've already suggested an auto-mine function that would let a player auto-mine a spot until it depletes. This alone will save the common miner a massive number of unnecessary clicks.
2. Suppose now, we removed all the different ore piles except the big pile, and for simplicity sake, we said one ore pile = 1 ingot, and adjusted its weight to 6 stones (whereas currently it is 12) so we're looking at approximately the same yield roughly. No more having to combine piles of ore to save space. Yet another huge pointless time sink cut out.
3. Suppose now, there was an additional function added on to the aforementioned auto-mine function, where you could have the ore go directly into the pack horse. Doesn't even hit your own backpack. Imagine how many clicks this would save. Auto-mine and it goes directly into the packhorse. EZ.
4. When you find yourself back at the forge after a hard day's mining, imagine being able to open up a smelt menu that will show you your potential yields / waste, lets your smelt each pile one by one or smelt everything you and your pack horse are carrying at once. No need to d-click the ore piles one by one. Not having to re-smelt an ore pile when the smelt fails (and no having to lose half the ore when it fails). EZ.
5. Now imagine a possible new dimension to pack animals. Instead of buying a pack horse from a stablemaster you can buy a regular horse and attach a craftable pack to turn it into a packhorse. Different types and qualities of packs could add some depth to this, and the horses could be trained with taming with abilities that improve their hauling capacity / speed. Lot of possibilities here.
Again, these are just random "ideas". My point is to show that even in a world without fire beetles, there are many different ways that old cruel monotony of mining can be improved upon if we just use our imagination a little bit. You can add challenge and complexity to the game that makes it harder or perhaps even impossible for a bot to operate as well as improving the value of the ore, while at the same time reducing the monotony and the frustrating click-fest that mining has always been. Having to walk back to the forge truly is not the worst thing in the world.
Let me see if I have this right
Recall to mine spot
Auto Mine
Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
Auto Mine
Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
Auto Mine
Auto fill Packie
Recall to next spot
Auto Mine
Auto fill Packie
Packie full select next packie ( I am sure a script writer could add this part)
Recall to next spot
Auto Mine
Auto fill Packie so on and so on until all packies full
Recall home and auto smelt.
IMHO this sounds like a Scripters dream because you have almost automated everything for them.
Too much text for a macro you I can see have never written code..
Yes I would love to just have them revert back to the old way... but all of that data is gone.. outside our mining books that is.
Because the mining has rotated all the many mining spots to new ore types, a lot of it common iron. It would be best to do a full reset of all mining and do what we did when the shards were new... Will it happen? No Its a nice dream but the can of worms it would start is not a pretty picture.
We could always remark new rune books
This is what needs to be fixed. I shouldn't have to go to round about ways, by doing bods to get mining maps etc or covetous to get 'rewards' to let me find stuff.
They stuffed the whole thing they need to fix it. My idea above of upping the spawn rate for the high end stuff into non recall areas, ilshenar, eodon, stygian abyss, etc etc solves a lot of the current problem.
In no other game can a main skill be usurped by any other character skill. It is like making a lumberjack be able to do magery better than a flipping mage. Sorry, just fix it.
Cheers MissE
For recall miners, what do you find fun about recall mining?
Would you still like mining if you did it a different way?
Do you find recall mining rewarding?