ORE AND WOOD

Deraj

Kyronix, thanks for the quality response.

I tend to agree with you, however, from the perspective of rewards from other activities resources play a vital role.  It's easy to "throw in some resources" as rewards for content without having to worry about powercreep, balance, rares etc etc.  That being said I think in some respects it makes sense to get resources from non-harvesting activities as plundering trade routes or resources caches enhances the simulation and the immersion.  I'd of much rather seen rare resources or specialty resources available from non-harvesting activities, but alas we are at the stage we are and going backwards is always tricky.  That said, it may be worth a balance pass and further discussion.

Just to clarify, I think it is fine that resources can come from other sources, I only think it becomes a problem if sources other than harvesting become the go-to for certain kinds of resources (ore & wood). The trade ships may not be the best example - I don't really have any numbers to support a point, but I have abused the gold elementals in Blackthorn's Dungeon quite a bit, and see the ore yield from that to be detrimental to any kind of economic balance.

I think fire beetles (the de-facto portable forge) enhanced the user experience for the better overall.  While using a herd of pack animals to transport large weights of resources, or dropping/dragging may have been more realistic to the simulation, I think it presented a huge UX downfall.  I do, however, like the idea of mining/lumber camps and the thought of how to implement them is something I often think about.  Providing a bonus to refined resources would be a good way to promote their use.

I do see your point about the UX, and I can see that that is the most pressing concern to address when taking out the dreaded nerf stick. My inspiration for this line of thinking draws a lot from EVE Online, where mining the ore is only half the equation; the other half is the logistical problem of getting it back to a station. The walk between the mountain and the forge is a part of what gives ore its value - not unlike the trade quests, where walking the full distance yields higher rewards. Obviously, we wouldn't want that walk to be too far each and every time, but I think that part of the problem that fire beetles pose is that increase the yield by several factors from being able to smelt-on-the-go, rather than having to break from mining to address your weight capacity being reached. Here's a secondary idea: what if fire beetles themselves had a limited smelting capacity? In other words they could smelt only so much before running out of "heat", which regenerates at a certain rate. Or what if there was some item cost to using the fire beetle, such as having to feed it coal or something like that?

I think you touch on a larger issue that plagues any resource gathering operation, not just as it relates to UO.  Most of the time, it is inherently un-fun.  We try to "fancy" it up by adding random events, rare item recovery etc. Anything to trigger the reward center in an otherwise mundane loop.  That's not to say some don't enjoy the relaxation of harvesting, but for the vast majority I don't think it appeals.  The solution then, from the end-user's perspective, is to automate the process.  This results in some NPC driven resource gathering system (meh) or resource-scripting.  We can take steps to deter the latter while not punishing those legitimately harvesting, but I think at its core the process needs to evolve to something more meaty and less mundane.

I do agree with what you are saying. To clarify I hope no one thinks I am suggesting that runebook mining is illegitimate; it is legitimate insofar as the game mechanics and rules allow for it. I can see how my position on this might be viewed as an idea to punish the honest player to limit the scripter, but I don't see it as a punishment so much as a challenge or cost that gives the game value. Ideally we'd like monotony to go down while challenge and reward go up. The reward is the value of the ore. The challenge could be the threats, monsters, and logistical problems you meet along the way. Go even further: if there is a way to incorporate meaningful group play in what has traditionally been a solo activity, you will achieve a gold standard fun experience. I probably should have mentioned group play in my first post, because even with sometimes monotonous tasks, working together with other players to achieve a goal is another level of fun entirely. A task that is monotonous when done solo can be fun when done with others.

Could you elaborate, what's wrong with BODs in your opionion?  The other suggestions you make and the core point of a lack of need definitely are valid as well.  You still need resources to craft,. but I agree expanding their need would help to revitalize an otherwise lost profession.

It is true that crafting does need resources, but I'm not sure that the need is as strong as before in certain respects. Dragon barding's are awesome resource hogs - maybe some more versions of that, like for horses, ostards, etc would provide more resource consumption (although I realize there are other challenges involved in developing those). Unlike in the ancient days though, where one could expect to go through multiple suits on a regular basis, nowadays you make a suit that can last for years. That is why I mentioned repairs as being a possible target for resource consumption. I mean consider, armor can last for years. Even brittle/imbued armor will last a considerably long time. The concept of weapons and armor breaking completely is so remote that in my opinion it may as well not exist. So what if we reversed our thinking - instead of armor/weapons breaking/deleting when hitting 0/0 durability, or harboring the notion that brittle objects will one day die, we applied resource consumption and priced players out of their own gear? The more an object is repaired the more resources will be needed to repair it the next time (perhaps a maximum cost can be applied so it doesn't get too crazy). The property weight could also affect repair cost. Again more rambling ideas, but hopefully my underlying point is conveyed.

Deraj

Regarding BODs, this may get a little verbose. I will need another number list for this.
1. First problem is that the old point structure that is being applied to the reward list does not properly measure the resource value of a BOD. For example, Quantity 10 adds 10 points, and Quantity 20 adds 50 points. So doubling the resource cost only increases the points by 40, while Exceptional, which is not a consistent factor for resource consumption, adds 200. The resources themselves are a whole other ball game. I'm not sure if we know the definitive relative values resources such as ores for example have to each other, but the points being added definitely do not take anything like that into account. Here are some examples to illustrate:

10/exc/valorite/plate gorget = 100 valorite ingots to fill, worth 760 points.
20/exc/valorite/plate gorget = 200 valorite ingots to fill, worth 800 points.

20/exc/bronze/plate gorget = 200 bronze ingots to fill, worth 600 points
20/exc/bronze/plate tunic = 500 bronze ingots to fill, worth 600 points

Large/10/norm/gold/chain = 710 points, ingot cost 480 gold ingots
Large/10/norm/agapite/ring = 660 points, ingot cost 580 agapite ingots
(note in this one, the LBOD with a lower value resource cost actually yields more points)

2. Banking points. I know that you have said before that it is not ideal for crafters to get the high level rewards by grinding low level BODs, but if the relative resource costs are balanced and taken into consideration, would that be a problem? Consider: if it takes X amount of time to mine 1000 iron, and X amount of time to mine 50 valorite ingots, and assuming no other factors went into their value (which I will concede there are other factors); as long as the relative values are being taken into account, would it be unbalanced to get the higher rewards with low level BODs? As it stands now it is possible with banked points, but my problem with the bank rate, just as in point 1, is the resource values are not being taken into account and the result is that rewards cost 5x - 20x more than if you were to claim at turn-in. It doesn't seem useful.

3. Large BODs require small BODs. This is a problem because there is too much variety and randomness in BOD generation and bribing. Bribing at least makes doing LBODs possible, but it's still unnecessarily difficult with bribing because the property you need does not always raise (and usually doesn't). Bribing can get you a top tier BOD easily, but getting mid-range BODs, or properties in the mid-range is too unreliable. Mid-tier LBODs may as well not even exist. In a roleplay sense it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A vendor gives me an order, but I have to get smaller orders to complete his large order? The small BOD requirement is only getting in the way of doing BODs. The cost to the experience is high and the reward questionable.

Those are the three big obstructions in the BOD world. My ideal BOD situation is that a crafter can pick up a BOD, complete it, turn it in, and keep going until they run out of resources regardless of BOD size, and assured that the proper value of their resources is being taken into account. BOD storage would be minimal and only necessary for when there are insufficient resources or to stock up for the holiday event. If there was a way to incorporate group play or tie BODs to cities (sort of like trade quests) all the better.

Tim

One idea I haven't seen here is put the coloured ingots/wood on npc vendors at a high price as a gold sink.

If the prices were high enough it may bring more player vendors back to the market and make it worth wile for them to go out gathering.

As well it would relieve crafters who don't want to gather of having to do so.

In the end this is a game we all do for enjoyment we should be very careful about making a player do something they don't want to just so they can do something they want to. 
I'm not saying we shouldn't suffer some pain for the joy but we should think about it very carefully 

MissE

Get rid of my fire beetle and that will be the final nail in the coffin for my miner.  Sorry, that is the ONLY thing that still keeps me mining manually.  Take it out and the scripters who DON'T use fire beetles just get another leg up over the rest of us.  No doubt of all the above that will be the ONE things the devs do.  I seriously believe they are only interested in assisting their scripter mates generate $$ from this game. I cannot believe the changes made over the years supposedly to assist players but that have totally aided the script economy.   Sorry, just the way I see it.

Drowy

Kyronix said:

I think you are joined by the majority of players in resource gathering mechanics in any game.  Resources by their very nature are always a means to an end.  A lot of times we set arbitrary goals for ourselves which help define a firm objective, and that can help break the monotony...I'm going to mine 20k ingots so that I can do X.

One of the downsides of static locations is that while yes, you could go out and be sure to find valorite in the same spots every day, the very same people who are script-mining now can easily monopolize that resource so that by the time you get there...there is no valorite to be had.  I not-so-fondly remember this being the case when I finally got enough mining to get some valorite only to find those spots monopolized by other miners who had beaten me to the vein.  Yes, we could share it once the resource egg respawned, but waiting around for a respawn wasn't exactly my idea of a good time either.

Regardless, I think the core of what you are saying is you want to be able to go out and get the resources you desire without having to spend a ton of time doing something boring before you get to do whatever it is you really want to do with your resources...whether it be crafting, donating, etc, etc.

The scripter already got the monopol on resources. With static resources the active players may break into this monopol. We can block the recall spots, go to felucca and if they are there, kill them. We can use Gargoyle Pick axes and Prospectors tools at lower ore spots. So please give us back static resources and let us handle the scripters.

Deraj

MissE said:

Get rid of my fire beetle and that will be the final nail in the coffin for my miner.  Sorry, that is the ONLY thing that still keeps me mining manually.  Take it out and the scripters who DON'T use fire beetles just get another leg up over the rest of us.  No doubt of all the above that will be the ONE things the devs do.  I seriously believe they are only interested in assisting their scripter mates generate $$ from this game. I cannot believe the changes made over the years supposedly to assist players but that have totally aided the script economy.   Sorry, just the way I see it.

I totally understand your apprehension about the idea of fire beetles being nerfed, but what is the cost of their convenience? All boosts and nerfs to mining serve to either increase or decrease your overall yield. The fire beetle is a boost, but a very large one.. perhaps too large. Removing the time it takes to return to a forge increases the yield by several factors - this inflation of resources if unchecked hurts all of us, including you. If too many resources are being harvested and not enough consumed, their value goes down. When the value goes down, the viability of mining as a meaningful playstyle diminishes. We're in a situation where resource harvesting has exploded while consumption has, arguably, diminished, or at least not risen in proportion.

I hope I can sufficiently emphasize that, among the various points in my long-winded rambling there is no one point that can be picked out and applied like a bandaid to solve the problem of script mining. A comprehensive approach and overhaul is needed to create a balanced virtual ecosystem - right now the crafting/harvesting ecosystem is pretty flat and deflated by my estimation, because of these numerous problems that have run wild for years and have become harder and harder to address without stepping on some toes.

Bilbo

MissE said:

Get rid of my fire beetle and that will be the final nail in the coffin for my miner.  Sorry, that is the ONLY thing that still keeps me mining manually.  Take it out and the scripters who DON'T use fire beetles just get another leg up over the rest of us.  No doubt of all the above that will be the ONE things the devs do.  I seriously believe they are only interested in assisting their scripter mates generate $$ from this game. I cannot believe the changes made over the years supposedly to assist players but that have totally aided the script economy.   Sorry, just the way I see it.

AMEN

Bilbo

Deraj said:

MissE said:

Get rid of my fire beetle and that will be the final nail in the coffin for my miner.  Sorry, that is the ONLY thing that still keeps me mining manually.  Take it out and the scripters who DON'T use fire beetles just get another leg up over the rest of us.  No doubt of all the above that will be the ONE things the devs do.  I seriously believe they are only interested in assisting their scripter mates generate $$ from this game. I cannot believe the changes made over the years supposedly to assist players but that have totally aided the script economy.   Sorry, just the way I see it.

I totally understand your apprehension about the idea of fire beetles being nerfed, but what is the cost of their convenience? All boosts and nerfs to mining serve to either increase or decrease your overall yield. The fire beetle is a boost, but a very large one.. perhaps too large. Removing the time it takes to return to a forge increases the yield by several factors - this inflation of resources if unchecked hurts all of us, including you. If too many resources are being harvested and not enough consumed, their value goes down. When the value goes down, the viability of mining as a meaningful playstyle diminishes. We're in a situation where resource harvesting has exploded while consumption has, arguably, diminished, or at least not risen in proportion.

I hope I can sufficiently emphasize that, among the various points in my long-winded rambling there is no one point that can be picked out and applied like a bandaid to solve the problem of script mining. A comprehensive approach and overhaul is needed to create a balanced virtual ecosystem - right now the crafting/harvesting ecosystem is pretty flat and deflated by my estimation, because of these numerous problems that have run wild for years and have become harder and harder to address without stepping on some toes.

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.  

MissE

Should make it that you HAVE to have a fire beetle and you cannot recall or gate with ore on you rather than killing off my beetle.  As I said, take that out the game and I will just quit mining. I play siege and if I am in the bottom of a dungeon mining I do not want to be walking out multi levels with 50-60 ore, the max I can carry without a packy etc on me.  Talk about kiling it for anyone but the scripters, worst idea I have ever heard.   At the most I can carry about 1400 ingot by the time I am full anyways. Fire Beetles were the ONE thing that made mining bearable.

Deraj

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

Bilbo

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

The_Higgs_1

I think the bigger problem is that is no use for the high end ore anymore compared to global loot other then maybe turning the bod in for the points to get rewards.  That being said it why not have a middle ground.  What I mean by that is being static and random kinda.  Make resources stay the same for two to three weeks in locations then change it up for next two to three weeks.  Then the scripters would have to at least remark all their runes in order to keep up, thus giving the advantage back to the honest players.

MissE

Prior to randomisation I mined plenty of the upper end ores and chopped plenty of upper end woods, you just worked around the scripters, sheesh was one who used to mine in cove on my shard and all you needed to do was get in front of him so he ended up mining your leavings.  Since randomisation I get bugger all to NO frostwood, and I get more valorite from merchant ships than mining. All randomising did was make it impossible for the legit miners/lumberjacks and gave it all to the scripters. Sorry Kyronix, but I can work around the scripters if I know where the ore/wood is, I can't work around em when it is random.  The excuse that we can't compete with the scripters is rubbish.  ON prodo shard where you knew where a tree or ore vein was in fel you just needed to go kill the scripter and then mine/chop, now you have no idea where to wait and finding resources is like finding half a needle in a 10 hectare paddock let alone a flipping haystack. Would rather it was just changed back so we could take our chances with the scripters. 

Tyrath

 What legit miners are good for now days........ Mining Saltpeter , Smelting while blacksmithing, mining granite, and mining iron with a over abundance of copper ore mixed in.   Mining is something you liked doing or did not before randomization.  Mining is something no one enjoyed after randomization as witnessed by the legit miners disappearing pretty much overnight.  Same with lumberjacks.  Very often the simplest solution is the best solution and reverting back to static ore and wood is the simple and best solution, not making it more complex and nerfing fire beetles.  NO ONE that chose to be a miner as their main playstyle asked for, wanted or liked the change.  ALL we have asked for since mining and LJ was broken was that it be returned to how it was, not made more complicated and even less enjoyable.   If you remember Bags of sending were also nerfed back then and were soon reverted back to their original function.  But here we are all of these years later and mining and LJ is still broken and simple flip of code switch would make us happy and make mining and LJ a legit profession again.  Sorry but saying static resources would allow the scripters to monopolize is one of the more ridiculous things I have heard, since it was changed random and allowed the scripters to monopolize the wood and ore market.

Victim_Of_Siege

This is a simple concept, the harder you make it for the scripters the harder you make it for legitimate players. Resource gathering then becomes something we don't want to do and we are then forced to consider buying spripted resources. Please do not nerf the fire beetle and consider putting the resources back to some semblance of static.

Garth_Grey

High end ore/wood/resources should absolutely stay on Merchant and Dread Pirate ships. It makes total sense that the most sought after items would either be on trade ships bound for other ports, or on the very Dread Pirate ships that we are constantly warned about at the sea market. "We were attacked and scuttled by Iron Grip Billy and barely escaped with out lives, he also looted our......50.......melons ??" I think other items of value should also be added to the loot found on these ships. 

EricBloodaxe

My neighbor in Malas thinks his group of 10 identically named resource bots that drop resources into the pouches hidden in the front left hedge of his house is super stealthy. He'd run more but each requires a recall tile so he's out of room. I guess I'm not supposed to notice that he's been running then nearly around the clock for 4+ years now?

My neighbor in Fel is worse. Not only does he have closer to 20 doing this he has his chests on the side of his house over a bamboo floor next to a missing wall piece. He recalls to the side of his house where he thinks he's hidden. That puts these non-stop recalling bots 1 tile from my house which also makes me hear them no matter where in my own house I am.

Lets just say that random vs non-random is not going to change what they actually do. In fact it risks increasing how much they do it. So long as NPCs buy iron ingots for 20gp each and cleanup chests give points for colored materials it's just not going to stop.

SirAJ

I am for leaving all as it is now (especially fire beetles) but to increase the time to a month before switching ore colors.

Bilbo

Tyrath said:

 What legit miners are good for now days........ Mining Saltpeter , Smelting while blacksmithing, mining granite, and mining iron with a over abundance of copper ore mixed in.   Mining is something you liked doing or did not before randomization.  Mining is something no one enjoyed after randomization as witnessed by the legit miners disappearing pretty much overnight.  Same with lumberjacks.  Very often the simplest solution is the best solution and reverting back to static ore and wood is the simple and best solution, not making it more complex and nerfing fire beetles.  NO ONE that chose to be a miner as their main playstyle asked for, wanted or liked the change.  ALL we have asked for since mining and LJ was broken was that it be returned to how it was, not made more complicated and even less enjoyable.   If you remember Bags of sending were also nerfed back then and were soon reverted back to their original function.  But here we are all of these years later and mining and LJ is still broken and simple flip of code switch would make us happy and make mining and LJ a legit profession again.  Sorry but saying static resources would allow the scripters to monopolize is one of the more ridiculous things I have heard, since it was changed random and allowed the scripters to monopolize the wood and ore market.

AMEN 

Margrette

SirAJ said:

I am for leaving all as it is now (especially fire beetles) but to increase the time to a month before switching ore colors.

I've noticed when playing on some of the "dead" shards that ore spots I marked runes for several years ago are still the same ore today.  (Also have noticed the same for lumberjacking.) So I suspect that what triggers an ore change is the quantity of the non-iron ore pulled out of the location, or the number of pick/shovel strikes, rather than the length of time the spot has had non-iron ore as a possibility. I think what would need to be programmed instead of what you suggest is to increase the amount of non-iron ore that a location will spawn or the number of pick/shovel strikes it can have before the ore changes to something else. 

In any event, I agree that letting a location yield 5 or 10 or even 20 times as much of a non-iron ore (or something other than plain wood, for lumberjacking) as it does now before changing would be a good change to make, while leaving everything else as is.  

Deraj

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I've seen multiple script miners using fire beetles over the course of years. Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are the one pretending to be a miner.

Pawain

Kyronix said:

Could you elaborate, what's wrong with BODs in your opionion?  

You really do not know that many BODs do not work as intended and never have???


Carpentry: 

Weapons Large:
Works

Wood Furniture Large:
The Large and all four smalls cant go past normal wood.

Cabinet Large:
The large and the two smalls cant be bribed past 20 exceptional wood.

SE Armoire Large:
The large and the four smalls cant be bribed past 20 exceptional wood.

Instruments:
The large cant be bribed past 20 normal wood.
The smalls cant be bribed past 20 exceptional wood.

Large SE chests:
The large and the five smalls cant be bribed past 20 exceptional wood.

Eleven weapons:
Work but need high level gems

Tinkering: 

Jewelry:
Larges and smalls of gemmed jewelry BODs cant go past 20 normal iron. Gemmed jewelry cant be made exceptional. I have not received a large non gemmed BOD. 

Key Ring: Works

Tools: Large BOD cant be bribed to exceptional. Smalls work.

Dining Set: Works


If you fix these issues than we could bring up things about the stupid ones like Gold Dust and Nexxus Cores. etc

As for the random locations of iron and wood:

Were the locations randomized because the spots were constantly camped?  Nope.  They were changed because of scripting and now scripters are the ones who get the most.As shown by Tyraths pictures.

JollyJade

Tyrath said:

Larisa  Jagex tried those interruptions way back and they were universally hated, don't know how it turned out I left and went back to UO.   As it is now the scripter just fills a runebook with random spot and presses play on the recall script and runs for 23 hours.

The problem with this is simple: You have accounts doing only mining, 23 hours a day, but apparently its too hard to flag and jail those.

Adding interruptions will only add more pain for legit players and not hinder script a bit.

The problem is that Broadsword has given up on punishing paid script accounts. Good luck finding a game mechanic that is fun for a human and hard for a bot. Good. Luck.

It's all already in the TOS. There is no technical solution here.

SwordofExcalibur

Other MMO’s struggle with resource scripting.  It’s part of the nature of gaming.

Final Fantasy tried numerous times to address scripting by making resource gathering a mini-game that requires precise input.  

However, scripters found a way around it.

So, SE’s response was to have a zero-tolerance policy for scripting and botting.  If you were caught, your account was perma-banned.  This helped some, and when populations were high, the ban-hammer came down more, but scripting was still present because buying a new account was not a chore for real-world money sites (and added to SE sales.)

However, as FF11 got older, less people played, there was no more hard edged policing of bots and less ban-hammer.

My best input is to make resource gathering a timed event through diminishing returns.

For instance, what is a fair length of time that a casual player may want to farm?  2-3 hours?  Resource gathering like mining is inherently monotonous in real life.  But a person can only work at most 16 hours a day if they are a superhero and at best 8 without going insane.

Reasonably, how long will casual gamers play?  And how long will hardcore?  It’s obvious that obsessive people and bots would go 23+.

Resouce gathering should have a limit up to every real world hour.  It’s already monotonous, why farm more than an hour at a time?

As you continuously farm, you get less and less resources.  You should break every hour, like a cooldown, until resources can be farmed in full-mode again.

That would limit what a bot could do.  What is now 23 hours of farming is 11.5 but the casual player still gets their 3-6 in if they wanted.

Make it is so what a casual player can get done in a short amount of time, an obsessive player should get dinged for spending so much time on, and get diminishing returns on farming.   

Then, if you spend your 3-6, go raid a ship or trade route for more resources and get your resource fix that way too, yet, put diminishing returns on that.

How long is a typical raid?  1-2 hours?  3-4?

If people want to consume resources all hours of the day in a game, put in diminishing returns so the casual or hardcore players can enjoy their time and the obsessive botters can get frustrated they aren’t getting more bang for their buck lol.

Give the bang for your buck to the casual player.

Bilbo

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I've seen multiple script miners using fire beetles over the course of years. Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are the one pretending to be a miner.

Yea right, you are full of poo and you know it.  Just keep supporting cheaters and to heck with the honest players.

Zed

        About this I want to say : ore beginning with bronze should spawning in dungeons,scripters will find it more difficult to extract it,it is necessary to change the chances of spawning valorite ore,for a player who digs it by hand it's absolutely pointless to do this , the chances of her spawn are now very small ! Further it is necessary to make so that during the extraction of valorite ore appeared there was a monster,not very strong,that colossus could kill him.It was not bad to reconsider the chances of the appearance of all types of ore. This is a very monotonous and boring work,in 2018, few will like this entertainment,now is not 1998.If you guys are developers,will fight with scripting and multibox accounts,and revise the extraction of resources,then everything will be just super )) 

Tyrath

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I've seen multiple script miners using fire beetles over the course of years. Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are the one pretending to be a miner.

I have not seen a script beetle miner or a rail miner in years on prodo. Still see and kill railers with beetles on Siege and even back when I did see one they were rare.  What I did and still do see are recall miners and LJs that bounce from resource to that house in the middle of nowhere with a 1 million+ stone box on the edge of it.   If scripting with a fire beetle was effective every script miner would be using it.... and the simple fact is no script miner is using a beetle.

MissE

Deraj said:

Bilbo said:

Deraj said:

I am sorry but you do not mine.  Fire beatles are the one advantage that HONEST players have and you want to get rid of them.

A needless assumption that does not address any of my points.

All buffs and nerfs to mining result in one of two effects: increased yield, decreased yield. Every buff that increases yield will be utilized by scripters x100. The convenience (and "convenience" is putting it mildly, I call it game-breaking) that beetles bring means scripters can flood the market even worse - this is detrimental to the honest players.

Why are you bothered by scripters, exactly? What are they doing that disrupts your gameplay? If it's not the fact that they are flooding the market with huge quantities of ingots and thus diminishing resource values and the viability of honest miners everywhere, then why worry? But if it is, don't you think that striking at the root of the problem and creating elegant game design would be far more effective than some hamfisted approach of trying to play whack-a-scripter? (and especially considering that if the scripter is at their keyboard they won't be penalized anyways).

It was because of scripters is the reason that UO gave us for random resources and you want to NERF the HONEST players, WOW.  Scripters DO NOT use beatles they use recall scripts thank you very much.  Just more proof you do not mine/lumberjack

I've seen multiple script miners using fire beetles over the course of years. Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are the one pretending to be a miner.

MissE

@Kyronix How about we put all the rare resources into Ilshenar/Valley of Eodon and dungeons in Felucca.  If they can't recall in lets see how it goes.

Make Trammel and Fel overland forest only have wood and oak.  Make all forests in Ilshenar/VoE have a much higher % of rare woods from Ash up to Frostwood.

Likewise, overland mining spots just iron and pershaps dull copper.  Dungeons in Tram the same unless there is no in or recall out, shadow and above ores everywhere in Ilshenar, Valley of Eodon, and in all Fel dungeons and at higher % than currently exists.

Most people already only gather in Felucca anyways on prodo shards, those training can do that just as well in Ilshenar/VoE as in Trammel/Fel.

That is one solution to even up the availability and keeping it random if you don't wanna just put it back to how it was.

It would stop everyone recalling in but you can recall out of Ilsh on prodo, as for siege, where I play it would be a bit more of a pain to get out but I can live with that if the rates were upped so that you had a decent chance of getting the rarer resources. 

I would be happy with this solution.

Bilbo

MissE said:

@ Kyronix How about we put all the rare resources into Ilshenar/Valley of Eodon and dungeons in Felucca.  If they can't recall in lets see how it goes.

Make Trammel and Fel overland forest only have wood and oak.  Make all forests in Ilshenar/VoE have a much higher % of rare woods from Ash up to Frostwood.

Likewise, overland mining spots just iron and pershaps dull copper.  Dungeons in Tram the same unless there is no in or recall out, shadow and above ores everywhere in Ilshenar, Valley of Eodon, and in all Fel dungeons and at higher % than currently exists.

Most people already only gather in Felucca anyways on prodo shards, those training can do that just as well in Ilshenar/VoE as in Trammel/Fel.

That is one solution to even up the availability and keeping it random if you don't wanna just put it back to how it was.

It would stop everyone recalling in but you can recall out of Ilsh on prodo, as for siege, where I play it would be a bit more of a pain to get out but I can live with that if the rates were upped so that you had a decent chance of getting the rarer resources. 

I would be happy with this solution.

REALLY  You want all the high end stuff Fel only, why not move everything over so I can shut down all my accounts and be done with it.