Treasure maps, why does their loot suck so much?

gaygay Posts: 186
edited July 31 in General Discussions
So out of pure boredom I threw together a tmapper, slapped a 2600 luck suit and +5 glasses on to it so my group could have a chance at luck procs, then set out and dug up 30 Eodon maps and 10 Ilshenar Troves of varied types. I used a three man group of my own characters, the mapper, a bard, and a sampire.

Roughly 80% of the loot was cursed, and probably 95% of the overall loot (not counting SoT/SoA, refinements, the dumb shrine gems, and bags ofc) was just completely unusable garbage.

Why even revamp a system of treasure hunting when you're going to water it down with the world's worst loot generating system in existence? Out of the 40 maps I did, I kept two (2) things, that weren't even that great to begin with. These are supposed to be the highest level maps in game, the hardest and most lucrative ones, the pinnacle of treasure maps. And fourty of them generated pure garbage, no usable splintering weapons, no even half decent jewels, the armor itself was an absolute train wreck to look through.


This part is for you guys, if you're not going to police the afk bots farming the following zones 24/7 across almost every Asian shard, Oceania, and most NA Servers, then the least you can do is re-design the system for treasure hunting in a way that isn't a complete waste of time for players who legitimately use it to generate loot, and have to deal with with the absolute cancer of mob selection that spawns from it. Without night shift GMs being able to respond to pages, or even being active to check these easily checked locations, the only people your current system is benefiting are the AFK farmers who go unchecked.
  • Painted Caves, Grobu & Lurg (felucca)
  • Sanctuary, Szavetra (felucca)
  • Fan Dancer Dojo, Fan Dancers (Tokuno)
  • Tsuki Wolves (Tokuno)
  • Yomotsu Mines, Yomotsu Elder (Tokuno)
  • Shame, Air Elementals (felucca)
«13

Comments

  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,526
    That high luck gives you more chance of high intensities which happen to be Cursed or Antique. 

    You proved luck works.
  • gaygay Posts: 186
    Except the cursed and antique items that were generated were largely Greater Magical items. Which are not high intensity at all.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,510
    luck should not make for worse loot 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • SkettSkett Posts: 568
    Try SoS that loot is all trash as well to be honest it’s like it’s much of a fight though 
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,510
    Eodon maps the worst 3 allosaurus 3 both hoard and trove maps 3 allosaurus the loot crap did i mention how ridiculous 3 allosaurus is 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • gaygay Posts: 186
    I haven't found a single positive thing about Eodon, aside from the large monkey.
    The AI of it's native NPCs is clunky, the unfinished landmass littered with NODRAW tiles, 30% of it being lazily blocked off by invisible walls which sure is okay for the outer edges maybe... but through the MIDDLE OF THE MAP? I was hyped about the allosaurus initially because I mean cmon who hasn't read https://www.amazon.com/Wet-Allosaurus-Summer-Lola-Faust-ebook/dp/B08K4XHRQW ? But meh. Flop after flop.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,510
    gay said:
    I haven't found a single positive thing about Eodon, aside from the large monkey.
    The AI of it's native NPCs is clunky, the unfinished landmass littered with NODRAW tiles, 30% of it being lazily blocked off by invisible walls which sure is okay for the outer edges maybe... but through the MIDDLE OF THE MAP? I was hyped about the allosaurus initially because I mean cmon who hasn't read https://www.amazon.com/Wet-Allosaurus-Summer-Lola-Faust-ebook/dp/B08K4XHRQW ? But meh. Flop after flop.
    Not to mention it and tel muir are somehow considered dungeons 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 835
    edited July 31
    Do a lot of chests without that much luck on my suit.  Most chests cache and above have one or two really good pieces in them and occasionally a legendary piece. Generally on my shard there is not much of a market for any of these things so even though they are really good they don’t generate any income.

    Hoard and trove chests have soa and sot scrolls which can have some value and are usually the only salable items in the chest.  Felucca chests have up to 110 power scrolls that as a rule have less value than the other scrolls in the chest.  If you are into these lower end scrolls, generally I get better power scrolls from cache chests than I do from hoard and trove.

    Really think treasure hunters should have a chance of getting something of real value out of hoard and trove chests.  After all they are treasure chests.  Maybe a chance of a 115 scroll out of a hoard and a 120 out of a trove.  Maybe a hawkwind robe, hooks shield or an upscale spellbook.  As is have to agree with gay above, these chests incorporate the worlds worst loot generating system.  Don’t agree that everything generated is useless junk, although to be honest that term does describe most of what’s in there.  But really you will be better off financially doing two cache chests which will take you about half the time it takes to do a hoard.  Really would like to look forward to having a chance of really getting something of value from a treasure chest.

    Note don’t do Endon chests based on what I have read the rate of return on those does not justify the effort it would take to kill off the spawn.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 1,743
    “Is it possible to get trove maps for fel? (better loot)”
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    gay said:
    So out of pure boredom I threw together a tmapper, slapped a 2600 luck suit and +5 glasses on to it so my group could have a chance at luck procs, then set out and dug up 30 Eodon maps and 10 Ilshenar Troves of varied types. I used a three man group of my own characters, the mapper, a bard, and a sampire.

    Roughly 80% of the loot was cursed, and probably 95% of the overall loot (not counting SoT/SoA, refinements, the dumb shrine gems, and bags ofc) was just completely unusable garbage.

    Why even revamp a system of treasure hunting when you're going to water it down with the world's worst loot generating system in existence? Out of the 40 maps I did, I kept two (2) things, that weren't even that great to begin with. These are supposed to be the highest level maps in game, the hardest and most lucrative ones, the pinnacle of treasure maps. And fourty of them generated pure garbage, no usable splintering weapons, no even half decent jewels, the armor itself was an absolute train wreck to look through.

    @ Mesanna @ Bleak @ Kyronix

    This part is for you guys, if you're not going to police the afk bots farming the following zones 24/7 across almost every Asian shard, Oceania, and most NA Servers, then the least you can do is re-design the system for treasure hunting in a way that isn't a complete waste of time for players who legitimately use it to generate loot, and have to deal with with the absolute cancer of mob selection that spawns from it. Without night shift GMs being able to respond to pages, or even being active to check these easily checked locations, the only people your current system is benefiting are the AFK farmers who go unchecked.
    • Painted Caves, Grobu & Lurg (felucca)
    • Sanctuary, Szavetra (felucca)
    • Fan Dancer Dojo, Fan Dancers (Tokuno)
    • Tsuki Wolves (Tokuno)
    • Yomotsu Mines, Yomotsu Elder (Tokuno)
    • Shame, Air Elementals (felucca)
    Not to mention that, if you did Eodon Maps, the Guardians spawning there are particularly time consuming to tackle thus, making the effort to complete a Map even more time consuming....

    So much time invested, to get so little in return.....

    Indeed, to many players, Treasure Maps are not worth the effort and the time they take....
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    Yoshi said:
    “Is it possible to get trove maps for fel? (better loot)”
    Not on the corpse of Monsters, that I know of...

    Yet, since Hoard Treasure Chests can contain a Trove Map, technically, I assume that it could be possible, albeit rarely, to get a Felucca Trove Map from time to time....
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    edited July 31
    • Sanctuary, Szavetra (felucca)
    • Shame, Air Elementals (felucca)

     @gay

    Out of curiosity, what is there that makes it worth to AFK farm Szavetra in Felucca or Shame Air Elementals in Felucca ?
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    Pawain said:
    That high luck gives you more chance of high intensities which happen to be Cursed or Antique. 

    You proved luck works.
    The OP also mentioned using +5 Cartography glasses so, that was also another boost which "should " have resulted in a loot quality boost.... it "should " have....
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,114
    I think in this, as in the other thread https://forum.uo.com/discussion/10950/25-years/p3 , Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or something like that.
    I dig treasure maps because I find them fun to do.  I've had enough pieces that work for my characters to fit into their suits, complementing the occasional named artifact piece my characters have gotten through other activities. 

    And yes, trove maps for Fel exist, I've dug many of them.

    My primary income from maps is the SoAs and SoTs, with occasionally a nice, bound, power scroll.  But I don't need to think about 'how much is this worth' when I look at the magic items in a chest, I don't play to be the richest player in game, I only play to enjoy my playing time. If the high end items in a chest don't make sense as part of a suit, they do nicely for relic fragments.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    I think in this, as in the other thread https://forum.uo.com/discussion/10950/25-years/p3 , Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or something like that.
    I dig treasure maps because I find them fun to do.  I've had enough pieces that work for my characters to fit into their suits, complementing the occasional named artifact piece my characters have gotten through other activities. 

    And yes, trove maps for Fel exist, I've dug many of them.

    My primary income from maps is the SoAs and SoTs, with occasionally a nice, bound, power scroll.  But I don't need to think about 'how much is this worth' when I look at the magic items in a chest, I don't play to be the richest player in game, I only play to enjoy my playing time. If the high end items in a chest don't make sense as part of a suit, they do nicely for relic fragments.
    I can understand your "fun" argument but, really, I hope that you can agree that EODON Treasure Maps are way too time consuming with the type of spawn that they generate and the quality of loot that they provide to even be able to see them as fun.....
  • gaygay Posts: 186
    popps said:
    • Sanctuary, Szavetra (felucca)
    • Shame, Air Elementals (felucca)

     @ gay

    Out of curiosity, what is there that makes it worth to AFK farm Szavetra in Felucca or Shame Air Elementals in Felucca ?

    Splintering weapons.

    With the rare 7-8 mod jewel and legendary/high major armor piece.
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,114
    I am willing to admit, and not for the first time, that Eodon maps are disproportionately difficult and have only done one Eodon Hoard map, with friends, for a giggle. Not expecting anything useful out of it.  That doesn't stop me enjoying maps on the rest of the facets, and if I don't feel like digging a high end Eodon map, well it's still worth 500 clean up points.
  • gaygay Posts: 186
    I think everyone should do what they enjoy, and if doing whatever is available to be done is what someone enjoys doing then they should do it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that thing isn't overdue for being looked into and changed.

    I feel that with the amount of loot a treasure map can generate, more of it should be useful than what the current system provides. And for that to happen means further re-development of how the loot system generates items, which is a good thing. Non-static loot generation systems should constantly be refined, and balanced, especially in a game like UO.

    I shouldn't be able to log into 20 different servers and see 5-30 EJ/Young characters in basic luck suits standing in one tile at the same spots on every dead server farming the same mobs. That is not only indicative of a policing system derelict of police, but of a loot table in need of an overhaul.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,352
    I have also found treasure map loot to be unusable for the most part. One of the biggest issues is definitely the maximum intensity that seems to be generated.

    I'm not saying every chest should have godly pieces; it could be 1:10 or 1:20 but as it currently stands I have yet to see a single piece (out of 400+ chests) be something that has 8 properties with mods that are all max (or close to max). 

    To your point gay, there is much more consistently better loot coming from other easier mobs which seems like shouldn't be the case given that T maps had an "overhaul" to address the loot issues.

    popps said:
    Pawain said:
    That high luck gives you more chance of high intensities which happen to be Cursed or Antique. 

    You proved luck works.
    The OP also mentioned using +5 Cartography glasses so, that was also another boost which "should " have resulted in a loot quality boost.... it "should " have....
    +5 Carto glasses doesn't do anything more than impact the quality of chest, not loot - per se. The higher your carto; the more of a chance you pull a gold chest over a metal or rusty chest. My results are inconclusive on whether or not a gold chest gives better loot because it wasn't consistent at all (I'd sometimes get better items in a metal chest than gold).
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,510
    keven2002 said:
    I have also found treasure map loot to be unusable for the most part. One of the biggest issues is definitely the maximum intensity that seems to be generated.

    I'm not saying every chest should have godly pieces; it could be 1:10 or 1:20 but as it currently stands I have yet to see a single piece (out of 400+ chests) be something that has 8 properties with mods that are all max (or close to max). 

    To your point gay, there is much more consistently better loot coming from other easier mobs which seems like shouldn't be the case given that T maps had an "overhaul" to address the loot issues.

    popps said:
    Pawain said:
    That high luck gives you more chance of high intensities which happen to be Cursed or Antique. 

    You proved luck works.
    The OP also mentioned using +5 Cartography glasses so, that was also another boost which "should " have resulted in a loot quality boost.... it "should " have....
    +5 Carto glasses doesn't do anything more than impact the quality of chest, not loot - per se. The higher your carto; the more of a chance you pull a gold chest over a metal or rusty chest. My results are inconclusive on whether or not a gold chest gives better loot because it wasn't consistent at all (I'd sometimes get better items in a metal chest than gold).
    So even at gm cartography using the +5 glasses gives the boost???so the cap isn't really the cap 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,352
    Correct. At 100 carto wearing the glasses will still give a bump. They work like mining gloves.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    gay said:
    I think everyone should do what they enjoy, and if doing whatever is available to be done is what someone enjoys doing then they should do it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that thing isn't overdue for being looked into and changed.

    I feel that with the amount of loot a treasure map can generate, more of it should be useful than what the current system provides. And for that to happen means further re-development of how the loot system generates items, which is a good thing. Non-static loot generation systems should constantly be refined, and balanced, especially in a game like UO.

    I shouldn't be able to log into 20 different servers and see 5-30 EJ/Young characters in basic luck suits standing in one tile at the same spots on every dead server farming the same mobs. That is not only indicative of a policing system derelict of police, but of a loot table in need of an overhaul.
    I feel that with the amount of loot a treasure map can generate, more of it should be useful than what the current system provides.

    I think that of the problems may reside, in the fact that, if I remember correctly, at the latest modification of Treasure Maps, publish 105, Spring 2019, when they changed the Maps from the 7 that they were, into the 5 that they are now, Stash, Supply, Cache, Hoard and Trove, the number of items spawning in Treasure Chests were reduced.... as well as other items, other then weapons or armor or jewellery, were added thus further reducing the actual number of weapons, armor and jewels as compared to the many that were spawning with the previous system.

    This, perhaps, resulted that, with a considerably lower number of items, the odds to get good ones with the new system were greatly dimished thus resulting in the feeling of players of a general much reduced quality of loot in Treasure Chests....

    Perhaps, to compensate the reduction in the number of weapons, armor and jewels spawning in Treasure Chests, the odds and chances of Legendary ones that are not Cursed to be spawned should be upped ?
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    keven2002 said:

    popps said:
    Pawain said:
    That high luck gives you more chance of high intensities which happen to be Cursed or Antique. 

    You proved luck works.
    The OP also mentioned using +5 Cartography glasses so, that was also another boost which "should " have resulted in a loot quality boost.... it "should " have....
    +5 Carto glasses doesn't do anything more than impact the quality of chest, not loot - per se. The higher your carto; the more of a chance you pull a gold chest over a metal or rusty chest. My results are inconclusive on whether or not a gold chest gives better loot because it wasn't consistent at all (I'd sometimes get better items in a metal chest than gold).
    According to the uo wiki https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/treasure-maps/

    There are also three qualities of chest, rusty, the familiar normal metal or gold. Chest Quality is determined at dig time based on the digger’s modified cartography skill the first time the chest is successfully dug up.

    And also
    There are 4 factors that influence what items end up in a chest if successful random rolls are made, Map Level, Profession Package, Chest Quality, and Facet.
    Chest quality can impact chest loot in a variety of ways including the quantity of a specific loot item, the range of bonuses, the type of crafting materials, and the intensity of randomly generated magic equipment.

    So, to my understanding, the OP, with 2600 luck suit and +5 glasses on, should have had some really serious chances at getting Legendaries that were "keepers"....

    Yet, as the OP laments, this did not happen and, mind you, over some 40 Trove Maps....

    To me, this shows that something is working quite wrong in the Quality of Loot Generation from Treasure Maps....

  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,510
    Honestly cartography should only effect decoding the map not treasure at all
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 367
    edited July 31
    And Warrior Malas T-Maps remain the only way to acquire Legendary Dragon Armor pieces, which is a shame. The odds of finding a Dragon Armor piece in the first place is low, the odds of it being a Legendary Artifact is lower, and the odds of it having useful stats is even lower. I think i've seen a grand total of 1 Legendary Artifact Dragon Armor piece in the entire game, and the mods sucked.

    It's seriously a massive series of RNG to get non-crafted Dragon Armor pieces. First, you have to roll the RNG to get a Map generated on mob. If it's a Named Mob (Miasma) or Paragon, then you also have to roll the RNG to be a Malas Map in the Paragon Chest. Then you have to roll the RNG again for that Treasure Map to be Warrior Map. Then you have to roll the RNG to get a Dragon Armor piece generated in the treasure chest. Then you have to roll the RNG to try to get it Legendary Artifact. What a joke.

    They should just add a Turn-In system for completed T-Maps. Turn in completed T-Maps for points, and you get your choice of a "Legendary" quality T-Map (you can choose the Facet and Package), which is guaranteed to contain nothing but Legendary Artifacts and maybe some new, unique items (deco or gear). That would at least keep T-Hunters cranking out regular maps, so they know they can build up to a guaranteed good map.
    Higher level T-Maps would contribute more points than lower level T-Maps, further modified by the Facet (facets with harder spawn would give more points, with Eodon offering the most points for that level of T-Map).
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 835
    edited July 31
    Regarding Fel trove maps, they spawn in Fed hoard chests at about or at the same rate as trove maps in other hoard chests.  Don’t do a lot of Fed chests but spawn rates for trove maps appears to be about the same as for others.

    To be honest if Fed chests had better loot than the others would do more of them.  But with the power scrolls you get from them being worth less or about the same as the scrolls from chests dug in safe areas the reward just does not justify the risk.  Agree with others loot from these chests should be better. It is, as far as I can see, except for the lower ranked power scrolls identical to what I get from similar level chests anywhere else.

    By the way what’s the deal with Fed Artisan maps?  Fed artisan maps DO NOT SPAWN power scrolls.  Any reason a player should buy those on vendor search?
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 835
    edited July 31
    By the way if you have a character learning imbuing, chests are a good way to get stuff to imbue and make fairly good gold while you are doing it.  Just bag it or send the character out pick it up after you empty the chest.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    edited July 31
    Arnold7 said:
    Regarding Fel trove maps, they spawn in Fed hoard chests at about or at the same rate as trove maps in other hoard chests.  Don’t do a lot of Fed chests but spawn rates for trove maps appears to be about the same as for others.

    To be honest if Fed chests had better loot than the others would do more of them.  But with the power scrolls you get from them being worth less or about the same as the scrolls from chests dug in safe areas the reward just does not justify the risk.  Agree with others loot from these chests should be better. It is, as far as I can see, except for the lower ranked power scrolls identical to what I get from similar level chests anywhere else.

    By the way what’s the deal with Fed Artisan maps?  Fed artisan maps DO NOT SPAWN power scrolls.  Any reason a player should buy those on vendor search?
    But with the power scrolls you get from them being worth less......

    I totally agree about the worthlessness of Powerscrolls in Treasure Chests being them only 105s and 110s.

    That is why, when the Publish 109 was being worked on, I insisted that Powerscrolls spawning in Treasure Chests were permitted to be spawned also as 115s...

    It takes just way too many Treasure Chests to make a 120 out of 110s...

    I mean, 12 x 110s to make 1 x 115 and then 10 x 115s to make a 120.

    That comes out as 120 x 110s "same kind" Powerscrolls needed to make a 120 which it then means, because of the RNG, a ridicolous amount of proper kind Treasure Maps to be found and Treasure chests to be digged up.

    Bottom line is, forget to try making a 120 Powerscroll out of Treasure chests...

    Different it would be, and more realistically feasible, if also 115s were permitted to spawn in Treasure chests.... THEN, it would still take time and effort to get 120s out of Treasure chests but, at least, it would now be more realistically feasible....
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,194
    Arnold7 said:
    By the way if you have a character learning imbuing, chests are a good way to get stuff to imbue and make fairly good gold while you are doing it.  Just bag it or send the character out pick it up after you empty the chest.
    Much less time consuming to just get a Pack Horse and go to Scalis hunts which are quite frequent and at the end of it, grab all of the junk which players leave behind on Scalis corpse and unravel that..... much less time consuming as compared to doing Treasure Maps....
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 835
    Have to agree it would take years for a player that plays solo to get enough scrolls from treasure chests to make a 120 scroll.  Just getting enough of the right kind chests that have a reasonable probability of generating the kinds of scrolls you need would be an almost insurmountable task.  Not saying it could not be done.  Might be practical for some of the players that have been playing nonstop since 1997 having dozens of books filled with power scrolls.  But in general agree with Popps on this one.
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