Parry Balance Discussion

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  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 474
    edited January 2019
    Cookie said:

    I guess I've been misjudging players all this time then, they've all been playing dexxers for the "challenge".

    And players have been taking up the passive parry skill that's wastes Dex, loses Int and skillpoints on their mages just for fun, (because there aren't actually any dexxers out there they need to use parry against).

    @ CovenantX - pure mages do get tore up by dexxers, I know, because I play one every day, in every pvp scenario going.

    I'll leave it here, but basically myself , and many many good pvpers I know, would completely disagree with your stance. I've said everything that can be said now

      
        No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage.

      players take up parry (and bushido) to evade spells.... dexers are a non-issue since wrestle/anat+parry... you don't need "evasion' to fight a dexer.... parry does it all by itself.   you're grasping at every tiny little thing you possibly can.... Surely it's becoming embarrassing by now.

      I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point.

      if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)

      I'll just leave this here: (taken from Stratics)
    Cookie said:
    I'm not sure a dexxer should be able to kill a parry mage easily, or at all 1v1?
    But to be fair, a parry mage cannot also kill a dexxer unless you've trapped it - due to the sacrifices made, and the healing and running ability of dexxers.
    I personally, gave up playing a parry mage, because I can't cast enough, I like to cast fields and larger spells non stop in group fights, I like my DPS.
    It means I cannot fight at Yew gate without being mincemeat.
    I'm a group fight player, I fight in large groups, over objectives.
    A few of my friends play parry mages or dexxers, and they basically protect me, keep me alive, and I do the annoying support stuff.
    Reaper, energy fields, paralyse fields, thunderstorm, essence of wind, a few heals, meteor swarm, flamestrikes etc.
       Anything else?
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • DrowyDrowy Posts: 108
    Well I PvP on a small shard, but would provide my idea.

    I would lower the SDI for characters using parry at least by 10. If you want to play defensive, you lose some offense. But together with this, I would also cut the swing speed for Non-Pure-Archers or Non-Pure-Melees at 1.5 sec. So if you have Melee +  a Mage school or Archery + a Mage school or Melee + Archery, you cant have max swing. There would still some more tweaks/nerfs needed like remove curse, maybe the mana specials use, maybe dismount, etc..
    But in my eyes this looks like a good idea. :)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 913
    edited January 2019
    CovenantX said:
    Cookie said:

    I guess I've been misjudging players all this time then, they've all been playing dexxers for the "challenge".

    And players have been taking up the passive parry skill that's wastes Dex, loses Int and skillpoints on their mages just for fun, (because there aren't actually any dexxers out there they need to use parry against).

    @ CovenantX - pure mages do get tore up by dexxers, I know, because I play one every day, in every pvp scenario going.

    I'll leave it here, but basically myself , and many many good pvpers I know, would completely disagree with your stance. I've said everything that can be said now

      
        No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage.

      players take up parry (and bushido) to evade spells.... dexers are a non-issue since wrestle/anat+parry... you don't need "evasion' to fight a dexer.... parry does it all by itself.   you're grasping at every tiny little thing you possibly can.... Surely it's becoming embarrassing by now.

      I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point.

      if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)

      I'll just leave this here: (taken from Stratics)
    Cookie said:
    I'm not sure a dexxer should be able to kill a parry mage easily, or at all 1v1?
    But to be fair, a parry mage cannot also kill a dexxer unless you've trapped it - due to the sacrifices made, and the healing and running ability of dexxers.
    I personally, gave up playing a parry mage, because I can't cast enough, I like to cast fields and larger spells non stop in group fights, I like my DPS.
    It means I cannot fight at Yew gate without being mincemeat.
    I'm a group fight player, I fight in large groups, over objectives.
    A few of my friends play parry mages or dexxers, and they basically protect me, keep me alive, and I do the annoying support stuff.
    Reaper, energy fields, paralyse fields, thunderstorm, essence of wind, a few heals, meteor swarm, flamestrikes etc.
       Anything else?

    Don't see anything that contradicts @Covenantx?

    In fact, it all 100% backs up my current position.

    I'm saying parry mage is a super defensive template, that is not great to play as a mage. So super defensive, it should at least be hard to kill. I can agree there may need to be some sort of adjustment re PvP, but the issue is not down to parry, as I've said 100 times now, it's due to the dexxers being OP in the first place.

    I've also stated there, I don't like playing parry mages, I did for awhile a few years ago, they just don't have enough spell casting ability for me. Doesn't affect me in the slightest if parry mages are nerfed - BUT it does turn the game into Dexxer Online, more so than it is even now.

    I've also stated pures get destroyed, in an open environment like Yew Gate by the dexxer armies. If I'm in a team battle, I have to hide right at the back quite often to stay alive.

    I have also stated previously, players like you, need to state what the issue is clearly. Is your issue parry, or is it evasion? Is your issue a parry mage, or a bushido/chiv parry mage? You seem out to nerf the entire mage class. I play a pure mage - and I have no issue with evasion... I have no issue with mages that have parry - because they have used skillpoints, to achieve very little from my perspective. So what is the issue exactly?

    And to add, as a player who actually pvp's, in a team with other players, I don't need to make anything up, especially to justify myself to a forum warrior like yourself. And I'll say the same to Higgs as well - the two of you, have fallen back into default mode of tackling the player and suggesting I'm a bad pvper, as you are both losing your arguments.

    We can leave it there, it's a perfect summary.


  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    edited January 2019
    Cookie said:
    CovenantX said:

        No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage.

      players take up parry (and bushido) to evade spells.... dexers are a non-issue since wrestle/anat+parry... you don't need "evasion' to fight a dexer.... parry does it all by itself.   you're grasping at every tiny little thing you possibly can.... Surely it's becoming embarrassing by now.

      I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point.

      if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)

      I'll just leave this here: (taken from Stratics)
    Cookie said:
    I'm not sure a dexxer should be able to kill a parry mage easily, or at all 1v1?
    But to be fair, a parry mage cannot also kill a dexxer unless you've trapped it - due to the sacrifices made, and the healing and running ability of dexxers.
    I personally, gave up playing a parry mage, because I can't cast enough, I like to cast fields and larger spells non stop in group fights, I like my DPS.
    It means I cannot fight at Yew gate without being mincemeat.
    I'm a group fight player, I fight in large groups, over objectives.
    A few of my friends play parry mages or dexxers, and they basically protect me, keep me alive, and I do the annoying support stuff.
    Reaper, energy fields, paralyse fields, thunderstorm, essence of wind, a few heals, meteor swarm, flamestrikes etc.
       Anything else?

    Don't see anything that contradicts @ Covenantx?

    In fact, it all 100% backs up my current position.

    I'm saying parry mage is a super defensive template, that is not great to play as a mage. So super defensive, it should at least be hard to kill. I can agree there may need to be some sort of adjustment re PvP, but the issue is not down to parry, as I've said 100 times now, it's due to the dexxers being OP in the first place.

    I've also stated there, I don't like playing parry mages, I did for awhile a few years ago, they just don't have enough spell casting ability for me. Doesn't affect me in the slightest if parry mages are nerfed - BUT it does turn the game into Dexxer Online, more so than it is even now.

    I've also stated pures get destroyed, in an open environment like Yew Gate by the dexxer armies. If I'm in a team battle, I have to hide right at the back quite often to stay alive.

    I have also stated previously, players like you, need to state what the issue is clearly. Is your issue parry, or is it evasion? Is your issue a parry mage, or a bushido/chiv parry mage? You seem out to nerf the entire mage class. I play a pure mage - and I have no issue with evasion... I have no issue with mages that have parry - because they have used skillpoints, to achieve very little from my perspective. So what is the issue exactly?

    And to add, as a player who actually pvp's, in a team with other players, I don't need to make anything up, especially to justify myself to a forum warrior like yourself. And I'll say the same to Higgs as well - the two of you, have fallen back into default mode of tackling the player and suggesting I'm a bad pvper, as you are both losing your arguments.

    We can leave it there, it's a perfect summary.


    Well said!

    'Only the inexperienced will say this:
    "   No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage."

    >> Sorry the good PVPers don't play pure mages, they play Hybrid mages.
    Warrior Dexxer Mages, Archer Mages, Mystic Mages, Parry Mage is just on one of the defensive options and its NOT the Striker of the team. Ofcourse there are many other template options.

    People who don't PVP in a team won't understand this.

    He keep talking about "Dexxer"  without referring a specific PVP templates, whereas I have showed him mine. And he said it is outdated!

    Yet he keep wanting to nerf the parry.

    Yes this is very contradicting!

    "  I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point."

    >> Maybe he should play more parry mage to understand its not the king pin in any PVP field fight. Oh maybe he is an expert in Parry Mage, then we should ask for a Demo Video to show case all his theories in this thread.

    There are none so far!

    "  if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)"

    >> You doubt!? Thanks for admitting you are just a theory person with not much pvp experience. Everything the opposition disagrees here are all tried and tested. Again, you are free to showcase your finest in Parry Mage that it should be nerfed. Ofcourse, you need to find worthy opponents in viable PVP Hybrid templates and Not Pure Templates.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    edited January 2019
    Aeyko said:
    @ Bleak

    This is by far one of the worst changes that I have seen recommended. If you take FC away from mages with parry, you give dexers the entirety of pvp. If you devuff parry too much, you also give dexers the entirety of pvp. I'd like you to try to fight a group of dexers with mages with no parry, mages will get demolished. In a 1v1 scenario, a dexer can walk through a mage without parry. 

    If you make either of these changes mentioned, you ruin pvp and balance. 
    Well said! We are confused by what they are trying to achieve with this, and to benefit who the most. They want the super clear Dexxer (not even a magic warrior hybrid) to be mage killers in PVP.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 474
    edited January 2019
    Seth said:
    Cookie said:
    CovenantX said:

        No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage.

      players take up parry (and bushido) to evade spells.... dexers are a non-issue since wrestle/anat+parry... you don't need "evasion' to fight a dexer.... parry does it all by itself.   you're grasping at every tiny little thing you possibly can.... Surely it's becoming embarrassing by now.

      I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point.

      if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)

      I'll just leave this here: (taken from Stratics)
    Cookie said:
    I'm not sure a dexxer should be able to kill a parry mage easily, or at all 1v1?
    But to be fair, a parry mage cannot also kill a dexxer unless you've trapped it - due to the sacrifices made, and the healing and running ability of dexxers.

    Don't see anything that contradicts @ Covenantx?

    In fact, it all 100% backs up my current position.

    Well said!

    'Only the inexperienced will say this:
    "   No, that's why people play mages.    except dexers aren't part of the 'challenge' anymore, they're weak & super easy to survive, especially if you add parry to the mage."

    >> Sorry the good PVPers don't play pure mages, they play Hybrid mages.
    Warrior Dexxer Mages, Archer Mages, Mystic Mages, Parry Mage is just on one of the defensive options and its NOT the Striker of the team. Ofcourse there are many other template options.

    People who don't PVP in a team won't understand this.

    He keep talking about "Dexxer"  without referring a specific PVP templates, whereas I have showed him mine. And he said it is outdated!

    Yet he keep wanting to nerf the parry.

    Yes this is very contradicting!

    "  I've been playing non-parry mages, they get tore up if they're bad at pvp..... but guess what, parry is so good, it doesn't matter if you're bad at pvp or not.    That's the point."

    >> Maybe he should play more parry mage to understand its not the king pin in any PVP field fight. Oh maybe he is an expert in Parry Mage, then we should ask for a Demo Video to show case all his theories in this thread.

    There are none so far!

    "  if these 'good' pvpers' pvp like you describe your pvp, I wouldn't doubt they'd disagree with me. (though I think you're just making it up, tbh)"

    >> You doubt!? Thanks for admitting you are just a theory person with not much pvp experience. Everything the opposition disagrees here are all tried and tested. Again, you are free to showcase your finest in Parry Mage that it should be nerfed. Ofcourse, you need to find worthy opponents in viable PVP Hybrid templates and Not Pure Templates.

     
    Bold = contradiction.   If you understood, you would have known that already... stop embarrassing yourself.

      # 1)  "good mages play hybrids"   No,  good mages can play any mage and still win the majority of their fights.       Good dexers were at this stage before parry was easy for mages to get again... shocker, I know.

       -  In case you haven't noticed. I'm not referring to Team Fights.    one vs one, every single template you mentioned would beat a dexer more often than not.  in a team, it's even more difficult for dexer(s) to compete against it.      everyone knows it, except you apparently.

      Btw, what part of 'weapon being your only source of damage' do you not understand?

      # 2) I don't need to play parry-mages anymore than I have to know a Mage without Parry > a Dexer .  Obviously a mage with parry will be much better than a dexer...

      You however, lose to sampires as a parry-mage (you said it, not me) because you're Inexperienced, which would cause you to lose regardless of the template going against you..  again, stop embarrassing yourself.

     # 3)  Context escapes you yet again, an unfortunate pattern with you... it's unbelievable.


    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,114Moderator
    This thread is getting way too personal. Leave out the criticism of each other's play/playstyle and stick to the topic please.
  • PaithanPaithan Posts: 117
    If you do not have parry- dexers are way overpowered.  Parry is needed to compete.  Dexers do just fine STILL vs people with parry.  I do think 35% at 120 might be a bit much- mainly due to how badly they nerfed archers.  The only nerf that really makes sense is global nerf of 5-10%.  

    The people that theory talk about dexers not being overpowered- how about you go to Atlantic and fight the medium to high end dexers with no parry on your mage and let's see what happens.  I already know the result.  

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    CovenantX said:

     

      # 1)  "good mages play hybrids"   No,  good mages can play any mage and still win the majority of their fights.       Good dexers were at this stage before parry was easy for mages to get again... shocker, I know.

       -  In case you haven't noticed. I'm not referring to Team Fights.    one vs one, every single template you mentioned would beat a dexer more often than not.  in a team, it's even more difficult for dexer(s) to compete against it.      everyone knows it, except you apparently.

      Btw, what part of 'weapon being your only source of damage' do you not understand?

      # 2) I don't need to play parry-mages anymore than I have to know a Mage without Parry > a Dexer .  Obviously a mage with parry will be much better than a dexer...

      You however, lose to sampires as a parry-mage (you said it, not me) because you're Inexperienced, which would cause you to lose regardless of the template going against you..  again, stop embarrassing yourself.

     # 3)  Context escapes you yet again, an unfortunate pattern with you... it's unbelievable.


    Since you have started down this track of attacking personal style, I could have reciprocated but no, I would not stoop so low at your level. Sticks and stones can break my bones but words are nothing.

    By the way, back to the topic

    Thanks for confirming again, in summary:
    1) You don't play parry mages
    2) You confirmed that parry mages are outdated templates
    3) You are not referring to team fights, only 1V1 perhaps in a boxed up sparring environment. Isolated scenario.
    4) Apparently, you arguments are gearing towards supporting Pure Dexxer template since your ruled out all hybrids.

    This is why it draw so many other opposition and even suggestions to buff the pure mage. Everyone understands this and it is evident that they are bringing up buffing the pure mage.

    And it is evident that you are the only who is lost in your own argument.

    If you counter any of the above points, you are contradicting yourself, complicating and confusing us even further
    .
    And if you can't defend any of the above, you have lost more than 80% of the argument.

    So in summary, you have already lost and there is no point "quarreling" here and attacking others.

    Since this is talking about PVP, talk in the fields.. oh sorry, you only meant 1v1 maybe playful fights around Luna in a guild setting. LOL Oh ok we got this.

    I agreed this thread can be closed like 100 posts ago.


    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    edited January 2019
    Paithan said:
    If you do not have parry- dexers are way overpowered.  Parry is needed to compete.  Dexers do just fine STILL vs people with parry.  I do think 35% at 120 might be a bit much- mainly due to how badly they nerfed archers.  The only nerf that really makes sense is global nerf of 5-10%.  

    The people that theory talk about dexers not being overpowered- how about you go to Atlantic and fight the medium to high end dexers with no parry on your mage and let's see what happens.  I already know the result.  

    Agreed, I have done this many times in real battle scenarios as well,
    1) Yew gate fights (or anywhere in the fields)
    2) VVV in cities
    3) Champ spawns raids and fights between 2 opposing guilds
    4) Mass war

    No. 1 worry: Dismount
    No. 1 best defense: Run! (Not even parry)

    Now we know why there are so many posts, they are referring to 1v1 fights only, probably not even in arena and they are talking about helping the 100% pure dexxer. So we are right to bring back the pure mage too, and remove previous nerfs.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 342
    edited January 2019
    Cookie said:

    @ PlayerSkillFTW - You can always tell the players who don't play a mage, they give it all the theory craft, and talk a good game. Go and play a pure mage on Atlantic in 10v10 battles, and tell me how it goes for you.

    Then tell me how easy that mana vamp was (circle 7 spell, anything above circle 4 is pretty hard to cast in pvp with dexxers all over you), and how feared you were due to you using it. I can tell you from real ingame experience, it does very little.

    Go and hit your little teleport key when you are splintered, bleeding, stunned, dismounted with 10 players dumping on you and you're stuck on foot again because your the mage without parry.

    Current mounted dismount puts the dexxer at no disadvantage at all, they have macros that work the speed of light, off and on in the blink of an eye, meaning they were never at a disadvantage.

    If you have 10 people on you, it doesn't matter what template you have. You can have a multi Plat 840+ Skillpoint char, and will still die to 10 people. When 10 people are focusing on a kill target, that person is going to die, no matter what. If you could survive 10 people focus targeting you as a Parry Mage, then that'd be a good reason to nerf it.

    You do realize that as soon as a dexxer performs a Dismount attack, it puts a cooldown on how long before he himself can re-mount, right? Even Riding Swipe has that restriction. If he has a live mount, Poison it. The only "mounted dismount" left in the game, is the Lance dismount, which requires the other player to be wielding a Lance as well for it to work anymore (turning it into RP Jousting).
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    Parry mage surviving 10 vs 1 focus targeting?

    Please show proof with a video and what are the 10 templates.

    If there is an exploit that needs to adjusted, so be it. But I have not seen and experienced the same. 
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 474
    edited January 2019

    Seth said:

    Thanks for confirming again, in summary:
    1) You don't play parry mages
    2) You confirmed that parry mages are outdated templates
    3) You are not referring to team fights, only 1V1 perhaps in a boxed up sparring environment. Isolated scenario.
    4) Apparently, you arguments are gearing towards supporting Pure Dexxer template since your ruled out all hybrids.

    This is why it draw so many other opposition and even suggestions to buff the pure mage. Everyone understands this and it is evident that they are bringing up buffing the pure mage.

    And it is evident that you are the only who is lost in your own argument.

    If you counter any of the above points, you are contradicting yourself, complicating and confusing us even further
    .
    And if you can't defend any of the above, you have lost more than 80% of the argument.
       1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages.    .   but this guy wants to be able to pvp with 230 latency, loses to a sampire (pure dexer) like parry is going to help with that, and claims parry is fine?     Yeah, let's listen to this guy.... not.
      
      2)  Where did I say Parry-mages are outdated?   I said meditation is outdated (referring to your template because it has Med (useless skill in todays pvp)).... despite it being specified in the very post about it, you somehow failed to notice.

      3) I guess it takes a genius to notice I'm referring to one vs one?    hmm.. it seemed clear to everyone else no?  shocker, I know.  (that pattern tho?)

     4) Parry doesn't affect anything else to the same extent.... What else is new? lol
     
    --
      What opposition?    You?   hehe...  most 'good parry-mages' aren't not even defending parry from being nerfed. They're defending Parry from the two proposed nerfs in the OP.  

     So far the consensus is a global -10%  parry chance reduction (this means you won't block as much).   I'd said 10-15%  (preferring -15%) but 10% is better than nothing.. but any nerf is better than nothing... lol

       It's evident I lost my argument?   My argument is to nerf parry for mages...  the original post suggests nerfs are coming (finally)   The current 'fixes' affects more skills than necessary (imo) but, magery is one of them.   -Judging by that, my argument is already won. 

    Where did you get the idea that I lost my argument again?   -I've got an idea about that, but I don't think I should say it.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    CovenantX said:

    Seth said:

    Thanks for confirming again, in summary:
    1) You don't play parry mages
    2) You confirmed that parry mages are outdated templates
    3) You are not referring to team fights, only 1V1 perhaps in a boxed up sparring environment. Isolated scenario.
    4) Apparently, you arguments are gearing towards supporting Pure Dexxer template since your ruled out all hybrids.

    This is why it draw so many other opposition and even suggestions to buff the pure mage. Everyone understands this and it is evident that they are bringing up buffing the pure mage.

    And it is evident that you are the only who is lost in your own argument.

    If you counter any of the above points, you are contradicting yourself, complicating and confusing us even further
    .
    And if you can't defend any of the above, you have lost more than 80% of the argument.
       1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages.    .   but this guy wants to be able to pvp with 230 latency, loses to a sampire (pure dexer) like parry is going to help with that, and claims parry is fine?     Yeah, let's listen to this guy.... not.
      
      2)  Where did I say Parry-mages are outdated?   I said meditation is outdated (referring to your template because it has Med (useless skill in todays pvp)).... despite it being specified in the very post about it, you somehow failed to notice.

      3) I guess it takes a genius to notice I'm referring to one vs one?    hmm.. it seemed clear to everyone else no?  shocker, I know.  (that pattern tho?)

     4) Parry doesn't affect anything else to the same extent.... What else is new? lol
     
    --
      What opposition?    You?   hehe...  most 'good parry-mages' aren't not even defending parry from being nerfed. They're defending Parry from the two proposed nerfs in the OP.  

     So far the consensus is a global -10%  parry chance reduction (this means you won't block as much).   I'd said 10-15%  (preferring -15%) but 10% is better than nothing.. but any nerf is better than nothing... lol

       It's evident I lost my argument?   My argument is to nerf parry for mages...  the original post suggests nerfs are coming (finally)   The current 'fixes' affects more skills than necessary (imo) but, magery is one of them.   -Judging by that, my argument is already won. 

    Where did you get the idea that I lost my argument again?   -I've got an idea about that, but I don't think I should say it.
    1)  Ofcourse I know dexxers don't tear up parry mages, this is what everyone is talking about.
    The fact that you want to remove parry means it will end up dexxers tearing up mages.

    Exactly why we should not be listening to you because you didn't get it.

    What I wrote was if my parry mage is so OP, at 230 latency you also can't kill it. But that is not the case. Check back my post, no problems.

    Sampire? Sure, nerf the parry and a PVM like sampire can also kill the mage easily.

    Did I twist and change what I said, no. You tried to frame me up.

    2) Yes you did. On Post 159, you wrote:
    " 2) your template is outdated."

    3) If you read the feedback I don't think everyone knows you are dedicating a whole thread nerfing a skill based on 1v1 pvp, which is only a small subset of the entire pvp. And main part of the equation is a pure dexxer just holding a weapon swinging mindlessly.

    I thought I had to worry about Hybrid dexxer mages, the next would be pure dexxers. I would support buffing up the pure mage template if possible then.

    4) No comments on this.

    Ok, I think we both have said our piece and I am not interested to keep going arguing wit you. You may have your point and I have mine. Let's see what the others have to say and let Bleak call the shot.

    Yes I do use Parry mage as my main pvp now but I am looking at other options frankly because this is overly defensive and lacks the bite.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 474
    Seth said:
    1)  Ofcourse I know dexxers don't tear up parry mages, this is what everyone is talking about.

    CovenantX said:

       1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages. 
       Does anyone that knows how to read want to debate about parry?
      


       
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • PaithanPaithan Posts: 117
    edited January 2019
    CovenantX said:
    Seth said:
    1)  Ofcourse I know dexxers don't tear up parry mages, this is what everyone is talking about.

    CovenantX said:

       1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages. 
       Does anyone that knows how to read want to debate about parry?
      


       
    Didn't you say you don't even really play and when you do it's on a dead LS shard?

    If so- then you don't know how it is fighting actual good dexers on mages without parry.  I do.  Parry is needed if you want to ever get a spell off.  The more I read your comments on dexers not being overpowered- the less i can take you seriously.  The only dexers that aren't overpowered are archers.
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 43
    edited January 2019
    Well, here we go again.  Same argument on another forum, convoluted by nothing but contradicting theoretical nonsense.  Refer to stratics for pages of myself disproving every statement made by players who don't even participate in pvp suggesting parry is overpowered.

    The only change to parry that wouldn't absolutely ruin this game is a slight reduction in parry chance.  Evasion is the real issue with the state of pvp.  I've posted videos of low tier dexxers slaughtering the best parry and non parry mages left in this game.  The response was "quit posting evidence that only supports your side of the argument."  Incredible response.

    Have been playing an archer mage recently, obviously without parry or refinements.  No evasion means I am target 90% of the time in group fights.  Had a sweet 2v2 a few days ago against an archer and an AI/LP mage.  In five minutes I think I managed to get a magic arrow off between being splintered half the fight and the archer hitting successful 50+ damage double shots on nearly every swing.  I tell ya, nothing as fun as being hit so much that the mage you're fighting doesn't even cast spells because he hits so often with a weapon.  

    What Paith has offered has been offered many times before.  I'd enjoy seeing anyone arguing against parry to fight someone like Gen, Leet, etc without parry.  These "theory arguments" of oh ya a parry mage will beat a dexxer 100% of the time are stupid.  Sure, lock them into a 10x10 box and maybe you're right.  Take it into the context of the actual game we play (which is not your perfect vision of everyone stays on the same screen and dies with honor!) then you ruin this game considering how many stupid mods have been introduced to dexxers.  IE. splinters, max damage with max swing, double hit spells, endless mana pools, etc.  
  • CetricCetric Posts: 152
    @Bleakat this point i don't much care what is changed, but if anything is based on "if player has refinements" then a method of removing refinements and/or re-adding mage armor to armor should be implemented in tandem
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 43
    edited January 2019
    Cetric said:
    @ Bleakat this point i don't much care what is changed, but if anything is based on "if player has refinements" then a method of removing refinements and/or re-adding mage armor to armor should be implemented in tandem 


    100%
  • LOLOLOL, its still astounds me that 7 pages into this thread people still say they cant pvp today without parry on a mage (cause apparently dexxers are too strong).   I have literally played a mage for over ten years without parry and never once had a issue fighting dexxer.   Sure I get ganked sometimes by multiple dexxers and die, but you cant use that as a reason to say dexxers are OP.  Any template that ganks you will kill except for maybe a tailor carpenter, LOL.   Splintering has had its nerf already which pushes them further behind the 8 ball in pvp.  Now its time for parry to get its nerf, its been long overdue since global loot came out.   Lastly if you need parry and/or evasion to survive on a mage in pvp then I suggest you go back to training on liches to get better. :p
  • PaithanPaithan Posts: 117
    edited January 2019
    LOLOLOL, its still astounds me that 7 pages into this thread people still say they cant pvp today without parry on a mage (cause apparently dexxers are too strong).   I have literally played a mage for over ten years without parry and never once had a issue fighting dexxer.   Sure I get ganked sometimes by multiple dexxers and die, but you cant use that as a reason to say dexxers are OP.  Any template that ganks you will kill except for maybe a tailor carpenter, LOL.   Splintering has had its nerf already which pushes them further behind the 8 ball in pvp.  Now its time for parry to get its nerf, its been long overdue since global loot came out.   Lastly if you need parry and/or evasion to survive on a mage in pvp then I suggest you go back to training on liches to get better. :p
    Another person that it is hard to take seriously.  Someone that does't play because he cannot compete.  

    You personally can't beat any decent dexer on Atlantic 1v1 on a mage without parry.   That is just a fact.  When I'd flag you on ATL you would either die in 30 seconds or run into your house and gen chat warrior.  Taking advice from you is very counterproductive.

    What they did to splinter is pretty hard to call that a nerf, btw.  The powerful part of dexers swinging at max speed and still slowing you down was kept in.  

    Devs:  Please don't use crazy theory for this update.  Listen to the people that know what they are talking about.  Go test fighting dexers on ATL vs mages with no parry BEFORE anything so you can see how bad it is.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    edited January 2019
    Paithan said:
    CovenantX said:
    Seth said:
    1)  Ofcourse I know dexxers don't tear up parry mages, this is what everyone is talking about.

    CovenantX said:

       1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages. 
       Does anyone that knows how to read want to debate about parry?
      


       

    CovenantX said:

       1)  That's how I know dexers don't "tear up" mages without Parry I play without Parry on Mages. 

    >>
    Obviously this isn't true which is why we a defending the parry mages.

    Sorry I repeat again with addendum:
    Ofcourse I know dexxers don't tear up parry mages, this is what everyone is talking about.
    - Everyone except those proposing to nerf parry

    If Dexer don't tear up mages without parry, I would rather have poison or other skills on, why waste a parry skill if it isn't effective. 
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    edited January 2019
    Paithan said:
    LOLOLOL, its still astounds me that 7 pages into this thread people still say they cant pvp today without parry on a mage (cause apparently dexxers are too strong).   I have literally played a mage for over ten years without parry and never once had a issue fighting dexxer.   Sure I get ganked sometimes by multiple dexxers and die, but you cant use that as a reason to say dexxers are OP.  Any template that ganks you will kill except for maybe a tailor carpenter, LOL.   Splintering has had its nerf already which pushes them further behind the 8 ball in pvp.  Now its time for parry to get its nerf, its been long overdue since global loot came out.   Lastly if you need parry and/or evasion to survive on a mage in pvp then I suggest you go back to training on liches to get better. :p
    Another person that it is hard to take seriously.  Someone that does't play because he cannot compete.  

    You personally can't beat any decent dexer on Atlantic 1v1 on a mage without parry.   That is just a fact.  When I'd flag you on ATL you would either die in 30 seconds or run into your house and gen chat warrior.  Taking advice from you is very counterproductive.

    What they did to splinter is pretty hard to call that a nerf, btw.  The powerful part of dexers swinging at max speed and still slowing you down was kept in.  

    Devs:  Please don't use crazy theory for this update.  Listen to the people that know what they are talking about.  Go test fighting dexers on ATL vs mages with no parry BEFORE anything so you can see how bad it is.
    Agreed, its hard to take them seriously. Anyone with experience in pvp war knows gank means death and unless managed to run away in time - for Any template. Another confused post by the proposition, one of them narrowed to 1v1 and now another flipping to ganking...
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,305
    Cetric said:
    @ Bleakat this point i don't much care what is changed, but if anything is based on "if player has refinements" then a method of removing refinements and/or re-adding mage armor to armor should be implemented in tandem 
    That is right, they should stop nerfing and close this thread. A new thread about proper balance (tandem) actions, e.g. for the refinement and mage armor, etc is good.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 474
    LOLOLOL, its still astounds me that 7 pages into this thread people still say they cant pvp today without parry on a mage (cause apparently dexxers are too strong).   I have literally played a mage for over ten years without parry and never once had a issue fighting dexxer.  
        yea, but when everyone plays nothing but parry-mages, they wouldn't know how bad dexers are until  they're forced to adapt to them, at least a little. 
    LearnMe said:

    These "theory arguments" of oh ya a parry mage will beat a dexxer 100% of the time are stupid.  Sure, lock them into a 10x10 box and maybe you're right.  Take it into the context of the actual game we play (which is not your perfect vision of everyone stays on the same screen and dies with honor!) then you ruin this game considering how many stupid mods have been introduced to dexxers.  IE. splinters, max damage with max swing, double hit spells, endless mana pools, etc.  
       Why would you mention That?    you're admitting a parry-mage would beat a dexer 100% of the time in a 10x10 box.  (obviously implying it's because the dexer can't run from the parry-mage based on the following statement)
      
      Why is it that you guys act like mages can't run from dexers?   most mages now have Bushido, so they have a solid method of healing while moving -Confidence, only interruptible by taking damage... and chances are, it won't be if they're using Bushido Mastery.

     You basically just reinforced the point that Parry is broken.   

     Also,  if a parry-mage beats a dexer even close to ~100% of the time in a 10x10 box.  a non-parry mage would beat a dexer about 65% of the time...     I'm not going to lie, it's pretty accurate based on my experience.  but then again, I'm used to playing without parry.  -I purposefully wouldn't let myself get too used to something so blatantly broken.  it usually pays off in the long run anyway.


    -15% passive block chance (which is generous to let it remain so high, imo), is what I'm sticking with, preferably for any template with both Parry & Magery or Parry & Chivalry... but a global reduction wouldn't be too bad either, global fixes have a bad history in UO, that make lesser combinations even worse than they were. 

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • RorschachRorschach Posts: 377Moderator
    This thread is closed. Thank you for all of the feedback.
This discussion has been closed.