Parry Balance Discussion

Seth

Cookie said:

@ PlayerSkillFTW - You can always tell the players who don't play a mage, they give it all the theory craft, and talk a good game. Go and play a pure mage on Atlantic in 10v10 battles, and tell me how it goes for you.

Then tell me how easy that mana vamp was (circle 7 spell, anything above circle 4 is pretty hard to cast in pvp with dexxers all over you), and how feared you were due to you using it. I can tell you from real ingame experience, it does very little.

Go and hit your little teleport key when you are splintered, bleeding, stunned, dismounted with 10 players dumping on you and you're stuck on foot again because your the mage without parry.

Current mounted dismount puts the dexxer at no disadvantage at all, they have macros that work the speed of light, off and on in the blink of an eye, meaning they were never at a disadvantage.

@ The_Higgs_1 - You have just not seen the entire issue I'm afraid. "All these players have parry, parry must be the problem..." Is just a gross oversimplication, to the point of not even seeing the real issue.

Thing is, I don't even use parry. Nerfing parry will have zero effect on me. But I do know what it will do. It will convert the last few parry users in the game to weapon users/dexxers. Or the ones like me who have so far refused to use parry, will have to quit, we already cannot compete, and facing even more dexxers/weapon users than the current avalanche will be an impossibility.            

it's very expensive to equip and use a good mage dexxer. That is why I like my noob pure mage with parry and 720 skills only. It's cheaper although I do spend quite a bit to get the full specs with 80 DeX, but way cheaper because I dont need uber weapon.

Still don't get why anyone would nerf a template that is basically outdated, defensive and only 720 skill points. Is this really a top priority requiring a sticky discussion. 

....
What else is the next nerf guys, so I dont have to waste time and money only to be made redundant overnight.

Bokuto splintering nerve strike with magery  and bushido evasion, is it OP? Mystic with bushido and magery? Archer Mystic Ninja warrior?

Seth

CovenantX said:

Bilbo said:

So if they NERF ParryMages what will become the new OP PvPer

    Mages - any variant, would still be the best. 

I wouldn't say they'd be OP at that point though.  Let's just say they won't be the best by the same margin that they are right now.

 

Right now parry mage is OP? Against who, pure dexxers?

Alright, nerf the parry and make it drop when a mage holds up a shield.

My Sampire would be finally be 100% effective against a mage, using my bokuto with splintering 20, Hit lightning 50%, HLD 50% and adding nerve strike. Force walking, bleed and para. Don't let me land a hit, or it will be OOoooOOO.. Try to cast a spell when I swing at 1.25s with the fastest sword. And I can evade spells and Confidence with Bushido.

We just ruled out mages for good in PVP when PVM Sampires can now cut them up like Tofu also.

Sorry add Chivalry to the list. My Sampire I can still swap out 4/6 jewels in PVP and cast heal and remove curse.

goldberg

this is 100% the worst idea ive ever seen for a change and if you take faster casting away from parry mages it fully ruins the template and the funny part is you have 3 different shields with faster casting on it to promote mages using it. these changes are design to make dexers overpowered in pvp and if a mage takes parry he is using skill points that could be use for more damage so that's a choice he makes to do less damage for more defence if you want to nurf anything nurf the anatomy and parry together with healing instead of using wrestling but don't nurf parry you will ruin every char that's been built that way and me personally I will quit this game for good. I might only have 2 accounts and maybe it don't hurt you guys to lose 2 more accounts but I am sure I am not only one that feels this way plenty of free shards I can play that actually vaule are time and the characters we have built to play how we wanna play

Aeyko

@Bleak

This is by far one of the worst changes that I have seen recommended. If you take FC away from mages with parry, you give dexers the entirety of pvp. If you devuff parry too much, you also give dexers the entirety of pvp. I'd like you to try to fight a group of dexers with mages with no parry, mages will get demolished. In a 1v1 scenario, a dexer can walk through a mage without parry. 

If you make either of these changes mentioned, you ruin pvp and balance. 

Kirsten

All the options sound bad. Need to just leave parry alone.

Bilbo

CovenantX said:

Bilbo said:

So if they NERF ParryMages what will become the new OP PvPer

    Mages - any variant, would still be the best. 

I wouldn't say they'd be OP at that point though.  Let's just say they won't be the best by the same margin that they are right now.

 

TY for your reply.  It just seems everytime one play style is nerfed then there is another one that gets whined about until it is nerfed.  Wonders what would happen if UO stripped out all the past nerfs 

The_Higgs_1

Suggestion:

• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points. Determine how much wiggle room for skill points above 720.
• Set a hard modified skill cap and leave the Parry skill alone.

I would go with the first of these suggestions an use like 750-760 as the break point.  The second one seems like it would effect more then pvp.   Id just like to see it go from 35% down to 25% for parry chance for everything without it affecting other stuff.  Then just see how it goes for a few weeks live and adjust it if it needs it.   

There is no way that dexxers will take over UO no matter what happens to parry, mage will always be king of pvp.   Right now dexxers are completely useless, with a little adjustment to parry they might be able to login in again and try.

Cookie

The_Higgs_1 said:

There is no way that dexxers will take over UO no matter what happens to parry, mage will always be king of pvp.   Right now dexxers are completely useless, with a little adjustment to parry they might be able to login in again and try.

Lol, do we even play the same game?

Are we in some alternate reality or something.

Sampires (pvm domination), Mounted Dexxer Deathstrikers (pvp), Dismount Stealthers (pvp), Weaponised Hybrids (pvp), Parry style Casters +90 Dexterity (pvp), Lethal Poison Nox Dexxers (pvp), Pure Dexxers with +80 mana for specials(pvp), all these are Dexxers of some style. Dexxer in UO is quite a broad definition, and Dominates.

What servers, playstyles, guild are you in, what's your playstyle?

Where do you see Pure Mages fitting in, in any of this, or even beginning to compete, let alone being the King?

As you see, I would happily have Parry nerfed (it fits my definition of Dexxer - too much Dex to be useful for a Mage - Mages shouldn't need Parry or Dexterity - I agree you can debate this), but Parry cannot be nerfed at the cost of destroying Pure Mages even further, and turning everything into one of the Dexxer styles I have listed above. Basically, the Parry Caster styles, are hanging on to the last vestiges of being a Mage that they can.

I myself have rejected Parry, having Dex, and using a Weapon, someone has to stick up for the principles here. I would like Pure Mages buffed, so Mages have another option, and can be Mages again. Suggestions = Buff DCI, Resist Spells, Meditation, Wrestle, Inscription, give us Off-Hand Globes/Crystal Balls for Graphics (Craftable with Tinkering/Inscription) that have Stats but do not use Parry. All of these options, would help strengthen Casting Classes enough to drop Parry, without a Nerf being required.

cobb

lmao. this is turning out to be real ugly. But that is to be expected when you decide to nerf a skill that really should not be nerfed

Seth

The_Higgs_1 said:

Suggestion:

• The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points. Determine how much wiggle room for skill points above 720.
• Set a hard modified skill cap and leave the Parry skill alone.

I would go with the first of these suggestions an use like 750-760 as the break point.  The second one seems like it would effect more then pvp.   Id just like to see it go from 35% down to 25% for parry chance for everything without it affecting other stuff.  Then just see how it goes for a few weeks live and adjust it if it needs it.   

There is no way that dexxers will take over UO no matter what happens to parry, mage will always be king of pvp.   Right now dexxers are completely useless, with a little adjustment to parry they might be able to login in again and try.

Let me add numbers for easy reference:

1) The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points. Determine how much wiggle room for skill points above 720.

2) Set a hard modified skill cap and leave the Parry skill alone.

---

#1:

- If this is the approach, first I would say allow up to 40 points.

However, this is the reason why my Parry Mage is now on Atlantic, to buy equipment and gears for an upgrade.

Based on on my recent fit-out, the mage would lose something else (Dex, HP, Strength) if there are too many skills. I also use wrestling for disarm and I would go for +SSI, HCI 45 and DCI 45-60 so as to nullify the attacker's HLD.

If you have skills up to say 760 or 800, something else will give. Not forgetting, we still want to have HPR, MR for the best template. Currently mine is at 730 skill points (extra 10 focus is useless) with all max regen, HCI etc. It is already very hard to make a pure Parry Mage.

So assuming that I can find jewels and gear to go 840, adding say Poison (so its a Parry Poison Mage) or Alchemy. There will be some weakness elsewhere, e.g. wrestling will not have SSI and swing slower, HPR may not be +18, Dex may just be 80 for parry (would not save me from Curse!).

The secret in PVP is, enemies doesn't know our weakness. This is the fog of war, and makes the fight less predictable and more fun.

So the conclusion is, setting the nerf at 760 skill points is pointless. The current template max limit would automatically nerf the overall effectiveness naturally.

Granted that some players may find some Legendary loots that are super uber, they are all antique and cost millions. If they can afford, so be it.

In real life, we don't try to "nerf" and "balance" the top 5% of cream of the crop? Players want to have a target/objective, the best PVPers want to be above the "norm". They are masters of the game.

If you do this, I am quite sure there will be many upset players who have just spent 75 million GP last night to buy a +60 skill jewel. Enjoy reading their complaint on this forum soon, as it would not be the few of us here when this happen.

#2:

Setting a hard modified skill cap - please start a new thread for this and leave parry alone.

It is not because parry is the only issue that require a skill cap. The Parry mage is defensive and there are better and more powerful attacking template. This modified skill cap will open the flood gate for all other templates to be nerfed in future.

This is very serious. I recommend to stop all vendor operations now as we are cheating every player who are still looking to buy +Skill Jewels. Some may even use real life money to buy stuff and sell them in game to get gold, which is in turn used to purchase such high priced jewels.

The topic should be "Skill Cap Nerf".

CovenantX

Seth said:

Right now parry mage is OP? Against who, pure dexxers?

Alright, nerf the parry and make it drop when a mage holds up a shield.

My Sampire would be finally be 100% effective against a mage, using my bokuto with splintering 20, Hit lightning 50%, HLD 50% and adding nerve strike. Force walking, bleed and para. Don't let me land a hit, or it will be OOoooOOO.. Try to cast a spell when I swing at 1.25s with the fastest sword. And I can evade spells and Confidence with Bushido.

    What are you talking about?   they could do both of Bleak's suggested changes, and dexers still wouldn't be above mages.   they'd simply be competitive again that's all.

  your sampire would be 100% effective against a mage if parry were nerfed?  That would mean your sampire would be at least 90% effective right now while parry is on almost 100% of casters in pvp lol.    but you know it's not true because if it were, this conversation wouldn't even be taking place.

Seth said:

We just ruled out mages for good in PVP when PVM Sampires can now cut them up like Tofu also.

Sorry add Chivalry to the list. My Sampire I can still swap out 4/6 jewels in PVP and cast heal and remove curse.

  You're a funny guy..   so it's ok for parry-mages to "rule out" dexers.  gotcha, cause that's what has been happening for the last 3-4 years or so.   

Could you imagine how garbage mages would be if 'Resisting Spells' had a Passive 35% chance to completely negate each spell's damage?     ...as long as Parry does that against dexers, It's ok though right?

  What's stopping you from going 4/6 chivalry right now on your sampire?    I don't have a problem pvping with my sampire, I just don't enjoy spending 20+ minutes chasing a guy that's only likely to be hit by 1/3-4 attacks  when I'm expected to hit 4-5 times without them healing to kill them.    It's much faster for me to just switch clients to a mage and take em out in a few minutes.  

Honestly, most of the time it was faster to use a mage even before parry-mages were possible again. just not every time like it is now.

Seth

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

Right now parry mage is OP? Against who, pure dexxers?

Alright, nerf the parry and make it drop when a mage holds up a shield.

My Sampire would be finally be 100% effective against a mage, using my bokuto with splintering 20, Hit lightning 50%, HLD 50% and adding nerve strike. Force walking, bleed and para. Don't let me land a hit, or it will be OOoooOOO.. Try to cast a spell when I swing at 1.25s with the fastest sword. And I can evade spells and Confidence with Bushido.

    What are you talking about?   they could do both of Bleak's suggested changes, and dexers still wouldn't be above mages.   they'd simply be competitive again that's all.

  your sampire would be 100% effective against a mage if parry were nerfed?  That would mean your sampire would be at least 90% effective right now while parry is on almost 100% of casters in pvp lol.    but you know it's not true because if it were, this conversation wouldn't even be taking place.

Seth said:

We just ruled out mages for good in PVP when PVM Sampires can now cut them up like Tofu also.

Sorry add Chivalry to the list. My Sampire I can still swap out 4/6 jewels in PVP and cast heal and remove curse.

  You're a funny guy..   so it's ok for parry-mages to "rule out" dexers.  gotcha, cause that's what has been happening for the last 3-4 years or so.   

Could you imagine how garbage mages would be if 'Resisting Spells' had a Passive 35% chance to completely negate each spell's damage?     ...as long as Parry does that against dexers, It's ok though right?

  What's stopping you from going 4/6 chivalry right now on your sampire?    I don't have a problem pvping with my sampire, I just don't enjoy spending 20+ minutes chasing a guy that's only likely to be hit by 1/3-4 attacks  when I'm expected to hit 4-5 times without them healing to kill them.    It's much faster for me to just switch clients to a mage and take em out in a few minutes.  

Honestly, most of the time it was faster to use a mage even before parry-mages were possible again. just not every time like it is now.

I would have a lesser issue if the nerf is targeting the skill cap rather than the skill itself. This is another ball game. The topic has become Parry Mage + another skill, whatever that maybe or who it may affect, I am not sure.

I will argue the rest of your statements for the sake in case Bleak back track to the original plan.

"so it's ok for parry-mages to "rule out" dexers.  gotcha, cause that's what has been happening for the last 3-4 years or so.  "

> What is wrong when a PVP Parry Mage Template is effective against a PVM Warrior Dexxer Template. 

What you are proposing is going to make every PVM Warrior template effective against a PVP mage in PVP. They just need to pop on the right weapon and swing mindlessly. (1 action nullifies 64 spells)

Your are the one that is funny.

CovenantX

Seth said:

I would have a lesser issue if the nerf is targeting the skill cap rather than the skill itself. This is another ball game. The topic has become Parry Mage + another skill, whatever that maybe or who it may affect, I am not sure.

I will argue the rest of your statements for the sake in case Bleak back track to the original plan.

"so it's ok for parry-mages to "rule out" dexers.  gotcha, cause that's what has been happening for the last 3-4 years or so.  "

   the skill cap isn't the main culprit.   It's bonus stats more than anything.  you could have every single skill at 120.0 if you have less than 80 dex Parry will block less than 5% of the time. 

    Instead of reducing the stats on new existing gear (cause there's so much of it now, and all it'll do is cause people to quit) the only thing to do is reduce the parry chances.

  the topic became Parry+Magery because no other template with parry has anywhere near as powerful an offense as that.   If you read and understood most of what this thread has been talking about you'd know this.

   Pvp templates are and always have been effective against pvm templates regardless of parry or not... you throw out all this nonsense like it helps your argument somehow but all it does is tell everyone you have no idea what you're talking about.  -Thanks for posting this btw  "ruling out" the trolls is half the battle.

Seth said:

> What is wrong when a PVP Parry Mage Template is effective against a PVM Warrior Dexxer Template. 

What you are proposing is going to make every PVM Warrior template effective against a PVP mage in PVP. They just need to pop on the right weapon and swing mindlessly. (1 action nullifies 64 spells)

Your are the one that is funny.

 

   You seem to be implying that parry is only useful against pvm templates (sampires)... yet, in the history of UO there hasn't been a "PVP Template" to ever EVER struggle with any PvM template until now?  .... lol...  as if it wasn't obvious before, There's no way in hell you have any UO pvp experience.

 Personally, I don't think repeating oneself is very funny.    However, I do think it's hilarious to watch a troll slay himself for once.   

I mean, have you ever heard of a "pvper" crying about pvmers beating them?   I have never heard of that since I started UO in 97' (except tamers - when there was no follower limit =X)

Seth

CovenantX said:

Seth said:

I would have a lesser issue if the nerf is targeting the skill cap rather than the skill itself. This is another ball game. The topic has become Parry Mage + another skill, whatever that maybe or who it may affect, I am not sure.

I will argue the rest of your statements for the sake in case Bleak back track to the original plan.

"so it's ok for parry-mages to "rule out" dexers.  gotcha, cause that's what has been happening for the last 3-4 years or so.  "

   the skill cap isn't the main culprit.   It's bonus stats more than anything.  you could have every single skill at 120.0 if you have less than 80 dex Parry will block less than 5% of the time. 

    Instead of reducing the stats on new existing gear (cause there's so much of it now, and all it'll do is cause people to quit) the only thing to do is reduce the parry chances.

  the topic became Parry+Magery because no other template with parry has anywhere near as powerful an offense as that.   If you read and understood most of what this thread has been talking about you'd know this.

   Pvp templates are and always have been effective against pvm templates regardless of parry or not... you throw out all this nonsense like it helps your argument somehow but all it does is tell everyone you have no idea what you're talking about.  -Thanks for posting this btw  "ruling out" the trolls is half the battle.

Seth said:

> What is wrong when a PVP Parry Mage Template is effective against a PVM Warrior Dexxer Template. 

What you are proposing is going to make every PVM Warrior template effective against a PVP mage in PVP. They just need to pop on the right weapon and swing mindlessly. (1 action nullifies 64 spells)

Your are the one that is funny.

 

   You seem to be implying that parry is only useful against pvm templates (sampires)... yet, in the history of UO there hasn't been a "PVP Template" to ever EVER struggle with any PvM template until now?  .... lol...  as if it wasn't obvious before, There's no way in hell you have any UO pvp experience.

 Personally, I don't think repeating oneself is very funny.    However, I do think it's hilarious to watch a troll slay himself for once.   

I mean, have you ever heard of a "pvper" crying about pvmers beating them?   I have never heard of that since I started UO in 97' (except tamers - when there was no follower limit =X)

Personally I read and enjoyed your articles at stratics but your argument here is way out.

Now you are calling me a noob with no PVP experience whatsoever, and yet I am the one asking for this to be tested out in the fields.

Yes I don't live each day to read this forum in the past because I spend more time in the game playing then thinking and writing in the forum.

There is no point arguing with someone who starts allegations and claims about personal play style and experience.

CovenantX

Seth said:

Personally I read and enjoyed your articles at stratics but your argument here is way out.

Now you are calling me a noob with no PVP experience whatsoever, and yet I am the one asking for this to be tested out in the fields.

   How are my posts on Stratics any different than my posts here?    I'll gladly criticize someone if they're mislead or just wrong in both places.

   Asking for testing is fine,

but some of us have already tested the way it was before vs the way it is now, clearly parry needs to be toned down a bit.    a medium would be ideal.  

-I'm not 'for' the two suggestions in Bleak's initial post. neither one of them are good options, but they are indeed better than leaving parry as broken as it is now.     but, we have enough useless skills, we shouldn't want more of them.

You then go on about how Pvm templates would destroy Pvp templates, like that has ever happened before, even when parry-mages weren't a thing.   a  Pvm template will almost always lose to any Pvp template, Parry isn't needed whatsoever. Despite most pvmers being some form of sampire (dexer) period.

It's unusual to see a pvper complain about pvmer's ability to 'pvp' usually it's the other way around.

  I'm not throwing random allegations btw, everything I said about you is based on what you said about your experience between a few of your posts.  - I'm not intending to offend you or anyone else, but that risk is always there I suppose.

  Anyway...

Passive Parry chances could be globally reduced by 10-15%  or more*

from 35% down to 25% or 20% - Shield.(Parry)

from 30% down to 20% or 15% - 1-h Weapon (Bushido + Parry)

from 40% down to 30% or 25% - 2-h Weapon (Bushido + Parry)

*-add a spell for Parry or Parry Mastery. with a block chance bonus for a set duration & cooldown if you want a higher chance to block.  similar to evasion, but against weapon-related damage only. whatever it is, it cannot be such a high % chance that is always passively active.

I also never felt it was necessary for Bushido to penalize Parry chances if you hold a shield instead of using a weapon only, either.     No one would give up potions in pvp for the extra block chance anyway, but that's beside the point.

Seth

"but some of us have already tested the way it was before vs the way it is now, clearly parry needs to be toned down a bit.    a medium would be ideal.   "

>Who is this "some of us", what are the skill templates, and under what circumstances, vvv, 1v1 or arena with limited space or what? Do you have videos to show how they fight, are they all the most experienced pvper and represents the entire population?

"It's unusual to see a pvper complain about pvmer's ability to 'pvp' usually it's the other way around."

>Yeah it is unusual, because that is exactly what will happen when you try to reduce the effectiveness of parry in a pvp template. I am saying what will happen, not what is happening.

"

Passive Parry chances could be globally reduced by 10-15%  or more*

from 35% down to 25% or 20% - Shield.(Parry)

from 30% down to 20% or 15% - 1-h Weapon (Bushido + Parry)

from 40% down to 30% or 25% - 2-h Weapon (Bushido + Parry)
"
>What are the basis of these figures and how did you arrive at these numbers?

"*-add a spell for Parry or Parry Mastery. with a block chance bonus for a set duration & cooldown if you want a higher chance to block.  similar to evasion, but against weapon-related damage only. whatever it is, it cannot be such a high % chance that is always passively active."

>Add a spell for Parry? It seems you are so focused on making Parry even more...

I am speechless. Many of us are wondering why on earth the topic of parrying again and the motivation for another nerf since the focus spec.

CovenantX

The "some of us" would be the those of us that have been pvping long enough to know what the problems are and what lead to them....   Who else could it have meant?

 "the templates" would be any variant of dexer and any variant of mage.  because it didn't matter at all before Parry was usable on mages.    

the circumstances only differ in the ability for the dexer to 'run' from the mage...   everything else is exactly the same situation.

Hence the point of this thread.. where have you been?

It's unusual because it has never happened before...   you admit it's unusual, then you go right back to contradicting it, in the same sentence.   Hilarious.

if it wasn't an issue before parry was easy for mages to get,  It's not going to be much different after parry is nerfed.   nobody even had parry before global loot in pvp and pvmers still got destroyed by every pvp template  that will not change as a result of parry being fixed or completely removed.

.    -I guess you missed the hundreds of "Powerscrolls should drop in Trammel" threads?   They're literally about Pvmers not being able/wanting (or both) to compete in Pvp.

Um, the basis of my numbers is due to the current block chances being too high.   What, did you expect them to be increased?  ....

"I'm focused on making parry even more... what?"     require timing, instead of it being 100% passive all the time?     maybe they should just make parry unable to proc if you're "casting" or "Holding" a spell.  that'll fix all of the issues with it.

Adding parry to focus spec did nothing because. -5% SDI is nothing, -15% SDI was everything.

(already mentioned several pages back)  even though it was the defense that came with Parry that was the issue the whole time, not the offense to begin with. 

-That's why I was for parry being nerfed directly before that change was made, it wouldn't matter if parry broke focus spec or not if it was balanced properly anyway. it's still broken.... shocker, I know.

The_Higgs_1

Cookie said:

The_Higgs_1 said:

There is no way that dexxers will take over UO no matter what happens to parry, mage will always be king of pvp.   Right now dexxers are completely useless, with a little adjustment to parry they might be able to login in again and try.

Lol, do we even play the same game?

Are we in some alternate reality or something.

Sampires (pvm domination), Mounted Dexxer Deathstrikers (pvp), Dismount Stealthers (pvp), Weaponised Hybrids (pvp), Parry style Casters +90 Dexterity (pvp), Lethal Poison Nox Dexxers (pvp), Pure Dexxers with +80 mana for specials(pvp), all these are Dexxers of some style. Dexxer in UO is quite a broad definition, and Dominates.

What servers, playstyles, guild are you in, what's your playstyle?

Where do you see Pure Mages fitting in, in any of this, or even beginning to compete, let alone being the King?

As you see, I would happily have Parry nerfed (it fits my definition of Dexxer - too much Dex to be useful for a Mage - Mages shouldn't need Parry or Dexterity - I agree you can debate this), but Parry cannot be nerfed at the cost of destroying Pure Mages even further, and turning everything into one of the Dexxer styles I have listed above. Basically, the Parry Caster styles, are hanging on to the last vestiges of being a Mage that they can.

I myself have rejected Parry, having Dex, and using a Weapon, someone has to stick up for the principles here. I would like Pure Mages buffed, so Mages have another option, and can be Mages again. Suggestions = Buff DCI, Resist Spells, Meditation, Wrestle, Inscription, give us Off-Hand Globes/Crystal Balls for Graphics (Craftable with Tinkering/Inscription) that have Stats but do not use Parry. All of these options, would help strengthen Casting Classes enough to drop Parry, without a Nerf being required.

First of all magery is the only stand alone casting school in the game due to its 64 spell versalility.  There is no other casting school you can use without something helping it, be it weapon skill or another casting school.  

I play mostly a mystic mage on most shards, the extra skill varies from scribe or nox or weaving depending on what type of fight Im going to be in.   I don't run parry and my dex is never over 70 even with pot, and ive been killing dexxers for years with that setup.  Of course if your being attacked by a gank of dexxers your probably going to lose if you dont run away.  But that can be said about any template in the game so it doesn't matter.   Right now everyone has parry regardless of what template theyre playing cause its too strong to not have.  Even the bush ninja deathstriker has it plus resist spells cause global loot allows such nonsense.  Before all this people had to choose between parry or resist which balanced the equation and kept people from making OP templates.  Like I said I could agree with the skill cap around 750-760 and beyond that you lose parry chance down to 20-25%.  Id rather see just a parry chance drop without affecting skill/stat caps.

Oh and if your not able to beat a dexxer now on a mage without parry, then you just need to practice more.  The mage literally has every advantage in the fight from range to massive versatility.  You can field, teleport, cast dmg, kite direction around objects or on top of roofs.  Open your books and learn the other 62 spells other then explo, fs.  

amit

Like I said: make shields disarmable, nerf cool down of evasion (make it like 30 seconds to a minute). Nerf chiv casting, make a frozen casting time for animal form. Maybe tweak refinements a little bit so they're more accessible (removing armor types e.i. studded samurai, bone, hide, plate)

gg

Seth

@CovenantX

I strongly believe you are the one who is seriously inexperience in PVP.

Hmm... do you play Dexxer pvp? Don't talk maths, talk with actions, come pvp with your parry mage so show us how good it is.

Oh I know, you have mistaken all those "mages" standing in the game as "parry mages".

My PVM tamer mages are also using shields. What do you want us to hold on the left hand when it can get free specs from Legendary shields.

So sad one whole thread devoted to unnecessary nerfs. Its laughable when you changed started saying its not the skills that is the problem but the stats. When are you ever going to end.

I am confused by you. I think if the Dev followed you argument and made the changes, it will be a disaster. Ok this time I am outta this thread for good.

Rorschach

I am beginning to believe this thread is no longer providing any useful feedback or suggestions.

Wentoxxx

Rorschach said:

I am beginning to believe this thread is no longer providing any useful feedback or suggestions.

Thats true, because there are 2 sides, first one peple playing parry mages as main chars in pvp and its clear they dont want any changes, because nerfing their template force them to change their template and they dont want spend time and money for that. On the other sides we have dexxers that have big disadvantage vs parry mage. Both sides try to defend their template nothing else. Very few people bring some useful feedback with examples in average math chances.

Mervyn

Out of all the posts in this thread the most ridiculous was the original post by Bleak, a case of start as you mean to go on.

Lieutenant_Dan

If you are going to nerf parry for mages I would suggest that you do one or more of the following to ensure the mage class doesn't get absolutely tore up.

1. Remove the dex requirement for parry

2. Bring back 4/6 mage casting

3.  Make it so casting a spell no longer removes your weapon or wrestling special proc.

4.  allow 4/6 chiv casting with magery

5. allow specials with mage weapons (without tactics or anatomy)

6.  do something about the trapped boxes breaking paralyze exploit.

7.  allow magery focus spec to have any other skills 

 

Lieutenant_Dan

Lieutenant_Dan said:

If you are going to nerf parry for mages I would suggest that you do one or more of the following to ensure the mage class doesn't get absolutely tore up.

1. Remove the dex requirement for parry

2. Bring back 4/6 mage casting

3.  Make it so casting a spell no longer removes your weapon or wrestling special proc.

4.  allow 4/6 chiv casting with magery

5. allow specials with mage weapons (without tactics or anatomy)

6.  do something about the trapped boxes breaking paralyze exploit.

7.  allow magery focus spec to have any other skills 

 

Of course some of these can be made with compromise...

For instance,  they could keep the skill restrictions for focus spec mages AND do there parry nerf IF they allow focus spec mage to have 4/6 mage casting.

CovenantX

Seth said:

@ CovenantX

I strongly believe you are the one who is seriously inexperience in PVP.

Hmm... do you play Dexxer pvp? Don't talk maths, talk with actions, come pvp with your parry mage so show us how good it is.

Oh I know, you have mistaken all those "mages" standing in the game as "parry mages".

My PVM tamer mages are also using shields. What do you want us to hold on the left hand when it can get free specs from Legendary shields.

  The guy that whines about a sampire beating his parry-mage and I'm the inexperienced one?  LOL, that's rich, it might be the funniest thing I've ever heard.    -If you die to a ANY pvm template with ANY pvp template, you're pretty bad at pvp.    Even the pvmers disagree with you on this one... I shouldn't even have to say it, truly sad.

  I don't play a non-casting-dexer I barely play any "dexer" anymore for that matter.   They're pretty useless compared to any mage template, because mages are too hard to interrupt if you rely on the weapon for both interrupts & damage.....    -if you understood just about any post I've made in this thread, you could have gathered that.  It's literally eluded to or flat out explained in several posts somehow it escapes you.   It must be everyone else though, right?

Pure-dexers (weapon = only source of damage) are not worth playing unless you're pvming. they take too damn long to kill anyone in pvp when everyone has parry.

  Leave it to this guy to mention "my pvm tamer mages are using shields" (like, do you UO?)  Does your tamer-mage have Parry? of course not, don't bring it up, it's irrelevant in fact most of what you've been posting is irrelevant to this conversation.

CovenantX

Lieutenant_Dan said:

If you are going to nerf parry for mages I would suggest that you do one or more of the following to ensure the mage class doesn't get absolutely tore up.

1. Remove the dex requirement for parry

2. Bring back 4/6 mage casting

3.  Make it so casting a spell no longer removes your weapon or wrestling special proc.

4.  allow 4/6 chiv casting with magery

5. allow specials with mage weapons (without tactics or anatomy)

6.  do something about the trapped boxes breaking paralyze exploit.

7.  allow magery focus spec to have any other skills

    Mages don't get 'absolutely tore up'.   - This came from people that avoided adapting to dexers attacking 0.25s faster with very slightly higher damage weapons at 210 stamina Disarm/Splinter-archers & throwers with moving shot...  all of which has been nerfed pretty hard, in addition to parry being so prominent, those templates have just about disappeared completely.

 Literally the only difference was Composite Bows & Soul glaives attacking fast enough to where you couldn't "greater heal" between literally every single hit.  anything faster than 4,00s was already swinging 1.25s long before 210 was even possible any weapon slower than 4s, still cannot reach 1.25s.   It didn't matter with melee weapons cause no one sits still long enough for swing-speed to kick in without the use of ranged weapons.

  1) If parry chances were reduced enough, it would make sense to remove the stat requirement.

  the only reason 80 dex requirement was added, was to make it more difficult for mages to use it.

  2) this is one of those things that sounds good, but it isn't.

  3) special toggles while casting spells?   fair enough, most of magery spells are delayed which makes their spells easy to stack with weapons anyway,    4/6 holylight+special spam would actually be useful again.   among other things.   (stun/nerve+wall of stone).

  4) this is also one of those things that sounds good but isn't.  Arguably 4/6 remove curse for mages would be less of a balance issue than parry is right now though.

  5)  I wouldn't allow mage-weapons to use specials without the required '70/90.0 weapon skill' though... Unless that's not what you meant?  

 I'd be for removing tactics requirement for specials though, there wasn't a reason to have it in the first place, but it was nice to have it reduced at least (pub 96).

  Anatomy hasn't been required for specials since AoS.

  a trade-off to this though, Tactics & Anatomy should both factor in for the combat bonus LMC, as well as tactics should have scaling effects on some weapon specials so that most specials aren't as useful with 0 tactics as they are with 120.   Armor Ignore -cap- for example.

 6)  Trapped Boxes, make them deal enough damage, so people don't automate it with a script because the boxes only hit for 7-10 damage.  

 7) We're essentially already there.   Focus spec vs non-focus spec is only a difference of 5% SDI.   you rarely see a focused mage in pvp anymore, cause Parry >>> 5 sdi.

    

Seth

Wentoxxx said:

Rorschach said:

I am beginning to believe this thread is no longer providing any useful feedback or suggestions.

Thats true, because there are 2 sides, first one peple playing parry mages as main chars in pvp and its clear they dont want any changes, because nerfing their template force them to change their template and they dont want spend time and money for that. On the other sides we have dexxers that have big disadvantage vs parry mage. Both sides try to defend their template nothing else. Very few people bring some useful feedback with examples in average math chances.

Part of this is correct.

I play Parry Mage but I am trying stronger attacking option, such as:

Warrior Mage with Bushido, and poison, close to around 820 skills, with a splintering, hit lightning, deadly poison.

Also not everyone who disagree to the change uses parry mages. If you read other forum posts, some are puzzled why suddenly another nerf on parry again. I also found this posts after reading the comments by others.

I can't be sure the other sides are dexxers, if you read the above they admitted

1) Parry mage with 720 skills are outdated template

2) They don't play dexxers themselves.

I am so afraid to discuss further with some posters in here as they are too complicated and confusing. And they don't have any video evidence of tests, nor concrete examples. It is just their personal opinion and they don't play parry mages nor dexxers.

The_Higgs_1

OMG!!!! If anyone thinks dexxers are better then mages you are a bad player PERIOD!!!.   Second the mod who said this thread is going nowhere has no idea how to play UO.  Its literally not even a discussion, parry needs to be nerfed.  Either by a hard cap on skills or a overall nerf to parry, if not the game in pvp will die completely.  *Mic drop*

Cookie

The_Higgs_1 said:

OMG!!!! If anyone thinks dexxers are better then mages you are a bad player PERIOD!!!.   Second the mod who said this thread is going nowhere has no idea how to play UO.  Its literally not even a discussion, parry needs to be nerfed.  Either by a hard cap on skills or a overall nerf to parry, if not the game in pvp will die completely.  *Mic drop*

I guess I've been misjudging players all this time then, they've all been playing dexxers for the "challenge".

And players have been taking up the passive parry skill that's wastes Dex, loses Int and skillpoints on their mages just for fun, (because there aren't actually any dexxers out there they need to use parry against).

@CovenantX - pure mages do get tore up by dexxers, I know, because I play one every day, in every pvp scenario going.

I'll leave it here, but basically myself , and many many good pvpers I know, would completely disagree with your stance. I've said everything that can be said now.