Parry Balance Discussion

amit

@Paithan yeah, chivalry should be capped at 0/6 or 2/6 casting and should apply to this parry formula. 

CovenantX

Paithan said:

Parry mages do not have more offense and defense then dexers. They have way less DPS and both their offense and defense can be interrupted.  If they are going to put something ridiculous in with casting classes- it should affect ALL classes.  Why does a dexer get to use parry and necro/chiv/etc with no punishment but a mage cant? 

 Makes no sense.  No "pure" skills are useful anymore as stand alone skills.  

This game is about balance.  You can have high offensive chars that can kill fast but have a lot of limitations/ you can have high defensive chars that are impossible to kill but cant kill anyone/ and you can have hybrid temps that have a mix of both.


Dexers do not have it rough with splintering wep.  They hit parry mages a lot and only need to string together a good 4 or so hits with splinter to kill someone.  The only class that I think has the short end of the stick right now is archers.


I would love to see you go up against good dexers one v one without parry. You would get eaten alive.

Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.


The only thing I can agree with you on is the refinements.

   The only way a dexer would have higher DPs is if they can hit ~70%+ of the time.

   and it's not about DPS, it never has been in pvp.    It's about Burst... Dexers have the low burst damage & no 'stack-ability' for combos.

 Pure Mages are the only useful 'pure' template out there.   Dexers can't compete without running away constantly, mages can, but they're still going to run if they get below 50-60% HP.... or before that.  I'm sure you know.

Evasion is "Overpowered" because Parry is overpowered....   Why else did everyone have Wrestle/Anatomy+Parry-mage before the Tactics requirement was reduced & non-focus spec wasn't a game-breaking penalty anymore?   (publish 96)  only dexers could go with evasion before global loot, instead they opted for archery because melee has terrible offense, now archers have terrible offense, and melee still has terrible offense....   No one cried about evasion until Mages were able to use it again.  you know why? because evade dexers can't f***ing kill anything, they're pretty much useless.   they need high defense to compensate the lack of offense.... sort of like chivalry, wonder why they capped chivalry at 2/6 if Magery is part of the template?   smh   I don't know how it's so easy for you guys to miss the problem completely, it's unbelievable to me.

Also, If your entire template depends on whether your weapon is Splintering or not, something's f****d up. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.   and um...What exactly stops a mage from using splintering Weapons?   Oh, right.. nothing it's just easier for a mage to kill people that are splintered because you don't need to worry about RNG preventing your spells from dealing damage. nor do you need to keep within 1-tile range before you know if the RNG is going to screw you or not.

Between Damage resistance % and % to avoid attacks (dodge/parry), skill-based methods of healing & consumables & low damage output, people are too hard to kill One vs One.  the only option for pvp has slowly become group pvp that's the problem.   there wasn't a point in UO's history that group pvp wasn't good.... but there also hasn't been a point until the recent years that group pvp was basically the only option.

Besides, Evasion doesn't make mages useless in pvp, but Parry alone pretty much makes dexers useless in pvp. sad day...

Seth

I don't understand what caused the start of this proposal. Some world class PVP player's suggestions? I have a parry mage but he is far from the greatest and I have been killed many times over by other warrior-mage template using splintering, or archer templates or ninjitsu. I am not a good PVP player myself, but this is an easy and useful template for me to last in a fight and more affordable than a warrior template.

Lastly, are you trying to balance or make a template completely useless? I think what you are doing is the latter. Then this is pointless.

Seth

And I think PVP is a very bias topic. It depends on the individuals' experience as well. Among my group of Asian PVP friends, the best PVP for war is NOT a Parry Mage. Why not hold a world class PVP tournament and see what are the real templates, the winner's template. After the competition, congrats the champion and then, Nerf his template. Cold.

cobb

All the options sounds bad. Would have been better to leave parry alone.

ArielHardy

The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points.

Was the best solution.

cobb

how much is the parry chance reduction going to be? 5%?

Bilbo

You can not "FIX" PVP with the current itemization of UO, alls you will do it make a different goto char. and people will whine about that.  The system needs a check to see what the person is fighting real person or computer controlled whatever.  If it is a real person/persons all mods are striped away and you are reverted back to playing PVP PRE-AoS where it was all about skill.  You are now fighting with 720 skill and GM items.  Strip out all the previous "balance fixes" and let the games begin.  Now lets see who the real PvPers are and not the beefed up stat/skill/equipment players, this is supposed to be PvP not EvE.

Cazador

Paithan said:

Cazador said:

Both are not good. Granted we ALL know some half assed fix will go in where u guys just nerf something because you refuse to try and balance it, for some reason you guys prefer the bandaid and forget about it process.

Why not change parry into a damage reduction formula, and change evasion to not work if magery, mysticism, or spellweaving at greater than 70(with or without skill increase).
Requirements 
(spells casting school mage,Myst,spellweaving -70)
95 dex
———————
1% Damage Evasion per 10 points parry
3% Damage Absorbtion per 10 point parry.
so at 120 Parry + 95 dex you have a 12% chance to evade(parry) the attack completely and have a 36% absorption. Which means an Armor Ignore would do 22-23 damage. 

Why would dexers only get to use the most overpowered spell in the game (especially VS mages)?  

That is a really bad idea.

Oddly enough paith, regardless of what anyone says it’s a shit idea unless you say it. I think that’s obvious 

Acid_Rain

Seth said:

...are you trying to balance or make a template completely useless? I think what you are doing is the latter.

Same thought.

ArielHardy said:

The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points.

This..... maybe.... I still don’t like any nerf to parry mages because it’s a trade off of survival vs damage output. The only players that negate this trade off use 10plat suits to do it & don’t represent the bulk of UO.

I’d suggest going alil higher than 720 because even the most basic shield (hephaestus) has +10 parry. A 720 cap penalizes players for using one of the most basic shields designed for parry mages - would b silly. A 760-775 cap would make more sense as it gives players +15 on a bracelet and ring including the +10 parry shield & mayb +15 somewhere else (spellbook w/ 15 mage possibly).

This would balance those few in PvP using 30-45 skills on EACH jewl while not killing off a template.

Cazador said:

Both are not good.

Oddly enough paith, regardless of what anyone says it’s a shit idea unless you say it. I think that’s obvious 

True & True LOL.

***Edit*** Sorry abt the misquote Cazador, I cant figure this forums quoting mechanics right on my phone & I’m not at home.

ArielHardy

Acid_Rain said:

Seth said:

...are you trying to balance or make a template completely useless? I think what you are doing is the latter.

Same thought.

ArielHardy said:

The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points.

This..... maybe.... I still don’t like any nerf to parry mages because it’s a trade off of survival vs damage output. The only players that negate this trade off use 10plat suits to do it & don’t represent the bulk of UO.

I’d suggest going alil higher than 720 because even the most basic shield (hephaestus) has +10 parry. A 720 cap penalizes players for using one of the most basic shields designed for parry mages - would b silly. A 760-775 cap would make more sense as it gives players +15 on a bracelet and ring including the +10 parry shield & mayb +15 somewhere else (spellbook w/ 15 mage possibly).

This would balance those few in PvP using 30-45 skills on EACH jewl while not killing off a template.

Cazador said:

Both are not good.

Oddly enough paith, regardless of what anyone says it’s a shit idea unless you say it. I think that’s obvious 

True & True LOL.

***Edit*** Sorry abt the misquote Cazador, I cant figure this forums quoting mechanics right on my phone & I’m not at home.

You Still can use the shield, just don't get te skill bonus oO (if you train parry up 120 and use that shield will still 120)

To me as a Pure Parry Mage this change is the easier to dev, and best to do to nerf the 800 skill suits.

Acid_Rain

You Still can use the shield, just don't get te skill bonus oO (if you train parry up 120 and use that shield will still 120)

To me as a Pure Parry Mage this change is the easier to dev, and best to do to nerf the 800 skill suits.

Training to 120 defeats the entire purpose of the shield. Finding balance by nerfing a desirable item for the template doesn’t make sense to me.

Most jewelry that’s desirable to farm has some +skills. 720 seems low for a penalty. The balance should affect ridiculously high numbers (800 and up are a balance problem)  but allow some room for commonly used items like the +12 scrappers or +15 spellbook & the +10 Hephaestus. A +15 jewl (2 jewl so +30 total) doesn’t seem that far fetched which is how I got those numbers. Was trying to find a safe middle ground.

I guess it would mainly depend on just how much a % nerf they have in mind. I still think it would be better to rework the evasion formula on parry mages as that seems to be the bigger problem. 

cobb

yes. i don't think someone with only +10 skill points should suffer the same penalty as someone who has +100 skill points

Seth

I still don't understand the motivation for another round of 'nerf' for the parry image. 

The last round was about a year or so ago, where the parry skill being included in focus spec and spell damage is already reduced. 

Maybe whoever proposed to you is not a good pvp player. Try coming over to Asian servers, currently at Asuka where pvp war is fought. The last time I joined them in Formosa and Asuka, I dont recall the groups are swarming with Parry Mage.

In fact, I am trying to build a Bokuto Mage with Splintering myself, but it is so hard to build. One Japanese expert  spar with my Parry Mage and killed mine in like less than 30s. No kidding. And several times. I am still trying to figure out what he did.

Again I am not a great pvper but this is the easiest for me now. 

Please don't nerf the parry mage template anymore.

Acid_Rain

Seth said:

I still don't understand the motivation for another round of 'nerf' for the parry image. 

The last round was about a year or so ago, where the parry skill being included in focus spec and spell damage is already reduced.

........

Please don't nerf the parry mage template anymore.

Agreed 100%

Balance issues seem to be with bush/parry (evasion) & + 800 skills - NOT parry itself. 

Please reassess the suggested changes as both seem to not address the real problem.

Urge

Every round of balance ends with a handful of nerfs to multiple templates, a ton of upset players and ending with even more OP annoying templates.

We should look at the root cause imo which is the insane multi skill jewels being spawned to create all these templates. Instead of template nerfs the loot table should be adjusted so this issue and any thereafter will be resolved on it's own.

Mervyn

If the issue is bush parry mages, they should raise the tactic requirement for specials from 60 to 90. 

Paithan

CovenantX said:

Paithan said:

Parry mages do not have more offense and defense then dexers. They have way less DPS and both their offense and defense can be interrupted.  If they are going to put something ridiculous in with casting classes- it should affect ALL classes.  Why does a dexer get to use parry and necro/chiv/etc with no punishment but a mage cant? 

 Makes no sense.  No "pure" skills are useful anymore as stand alone skills.  

This game is about balance.  You can have high offensive chars that can kill fast but have a lot of limitations/ you can have high defensive chars that are impossible to kill but cant kill anyone/ and you can have hybrid temps that have a mix of both.


Dexers do not have it rough with splintering wep.  They hit parry mages a lot and only need to string together a good 4 or so hits with splinter to kill someone.  The only class that I think has the short end of the stick right now is archers.


I would love to see you go up against good dexers one v one without parry. You would get eaten alive.

Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.


The only thing I can agree with you on is the refinements.

   The only way a dexer would have higher DPs is if they can hit ~70%+ of the time.

   and it's not about DPS, it never has been in pvp.    It's about Burst... Dexers have the low burst damage & no 'stack-ability' for combos.

 Pure Mages are the only useful 'pure' template out there.   Dexers can't compete without running away constantly, mages can, but they're still going to run if they get below 50-60% HP.... or before that.  I'm sure you know.

Evasion is "Overpowered" because Parry is overpowered....   Why else did everyone have Wrestle/Anatomy+Parry-mage before the Tactics requirement was reduced & non-focus spec wasn't a game-breaking penalty anymore?   (publish 96)  only dexers could go with evasion before global loot, instead they opted for archery because melee has terrible offense, now archers have terrible offense, and melee still has terrible offense....   No one cried about evasion until Mages were able to use it again.  you know why? because evade dexers can't f***ing kill anything, they're pretty much useless.   they need high defense to compensate the lack of offense.... sort of like chivalry, wonder why they capped chivalry at 2/6 if Magery is part of the template?   smh   I don't know how it's so easy for you guys to miss the problem completely, it's unbelievable to me.

Also, If your entire template depends on whether your weapon is Splintering or not, something's f****d up. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.   and um...What exactly stops a mage from using splintering Weapons?   Oh, right.. nothing it's just easier for a mage to kill people that are splintered because you don't need to worry about RNG preventing your spells from dealing damage. nor do you need to keep within 1-tile range before you know if the RNG is going to screw you or not.

Between Damage resistance % and % to avoid attacks (dodge/parry), skill-based methods of healing & consumables & low damage output, people are too hard to kill One vs One.  the only option for pvp has slowly become group pvp that's the problem.   there wasn't a point in UO's history that group pvp wasn't good.... but there also hasn't been a point until the recent years that group pvp was basically the only option.

Besides, Evasion doesn't make mages useless in pvp, but Parry alone pretty much makes dexers useless in pvp. sad day...

Everyone used anat + parry because you had double the SDI then.  15% on a bok mage vs 30 on a parry mage.  

Dexers are fine and can kill people easily (even with parry).  If someone is having trouble it is simply because they are bad.  The only temps that kind of suck now are archers.  I think they got nerfed way too hard.

I would be up for a global fix on parry by reducing its % chance by up to 10% where you are 25% at 120 and 20% at gm.

Seth

CovenantX said:

  The only way a dexer would have higher DPs is if they can hit ~70%+ of the time.

   and it's not about DPS, it never has been in pvp.    It's about Burst... Dexers have the low burst damage & no 'stack-ability' for combos.

 Pure Mages are the only useful 'pure' template out there.   Dexers can't compete without running away constantly, mages can, but they're still going to run if they get below 50-60% HP.... or before that.  I'm sure you know.

Evasion is "Overpowered" because Parry is overpowered....   Why else did everyone have Wrestle/Anatomy+Parry-mage before the Tactics requirement was reduced & non-focus spec wasn't a game-breaking penalty anymore?   (publish 96)  only dexers could go with evasion before global loot, instead they opted for archery because melee has terrible offense, now archers have terrible offense, and melee still has terrible offense....   No one cried about evasion until Mages were able to use it again.  you know why? because evade dexers can't f***ing kill anything, they're pretty much useless.   they need high defense to compensate the lack of offense.... sort of like chivalry, wonder why they capped chivalry at 2/6 if Magery is part of the template?   smh   I don't know how it's so easy for you guys to miss the problem completely, it's unbelievable to me.

Also, If your entire template depends on whether your weapon is Splintering or not, something's f****d up. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.   and um...What exactly stops a mage from using splintering Weapons?   Oh, right.. nothing it's just easier for a mage to kill people that are splintered because you don't need to worry about RNG preventing your spells from dealing damage. nor do you need to keep within 1-tile range before you know if the RNG is going to screw you or not.

Between Damage resistance % and % to avoid attacks (dodge/parry), skill-based methods of healing & consumables & low damage output, people are too hard to kill One vs One.  the only option for pvp has slowly become group pvp that's the problem.   there wasn't a point in UO's history that group pvp wasn't good.... but there also hasn't been a point until the recent years that group pvp was basically the only option.

Besides, Evasion doesn't make mages useless in pvp, but Parry alone pretty much makes dexers useless in pvp. sad day...

Personally, I am using a pure Parry Mage. 120 Magery, Eval Int, Med, Resist 120 Wresting, Parry Total Skills 720. It is too expensive to go for 820. So I am a regular PVP player who does not represent the best person out there. Your analysis is very detailed but yet: 1) It would affect a simple PVP player like me. 2) As mentioned earlier, the best Asia PVP players are absolutely not "Parry Mage". If they add Bushido, they are squeezing 100 skill points into a very tight template at very high cost. We are talking about 100 million per jewellery. If they have the budget for such suit, so be it. Salute to the Gear PVP Champion. I am happy with a pure Parry Mage just for fun sake. Also regarding this: "Parry alone pretty much makes dexers useless in pvp" - Then I think dexers should not wear any protective magical armor, as it makes mage spells useless. I have heard the Asukan PVP masters raised their fire resistance to 75 to counter the FS spell. They don't use parry mage. They are also as good or even better than you in PVP. Try search Youtube, organise a East Vs West Tournament as central location like Hawaii. Parry Mage isn't selling like hot cakes here. I am one of the 90% who doesn't have money to buy 820 skills jewels. Why not do this on Siege or Mugen?

CovenantX

Paithan said:

Everyone used anat + parry because you had double the SDI then.  15% on a bok mage vs 30 on a parry mage.  

Dexers are fine and can kill people easily (even with parry).  If someone is having trouble it is simply because they are bad.  The only temps that kind of suck now are archers.  I think they got nerfed way too hard.

I would be up for a global fix on parry by reducing its % chance by up to 10% where you are 25% at 120 and 20% at gm.

   Focus spec was the primary driver (even though everyone cried they had Parry because of dexers) when the SDI split was 15/30% no doubt.  it was the most obvious thing to me.    But someone fell for it, because Archers were nerfed (I agree they were nerfed too hard) and everyone still has parry.... So, What's the driver now?   It's certainly not Dexers being OP because there aren't many dexers around compared to mages anymore and there would be if that were the case...

 

 2) is interesting...  When was the last time you were killed by a dexer?   I don't remember the last time a dexer killed me.  I'm 100% sure it was before archery was nerfed though.

 A  Global fix to parry should be the last acceptable resort (IMO).  That being said, it's better than leaving Parry as is, but it's going to reduce the effectiveness of everything with parry when the problem is parry(+/-Bushido)-mage templates (defensively vs Weapons) far more than anything else.    Chivalry is debatable. 

Maybe Chivalry+Bushido should cut Parry chances to the same level Magery+Parry would?

It'd probably be pretty important for that parry chance reduction to Not carry over to pvm though.

cobb

It's almost impossible to say which option is best when there has been zero mention of what the penalty is going to be. Is the parry chance going to be cut in half like when you have less than 80 dex? Or is it going to be a flat 5% to 10% decrease?  

It makes a huge difference. Need some numbers here.

Wentoxxx

cobb said:

It's almost impossible to say which option is best when there has been zero mention of what the penalty is going to be. Is the parry chance going to be cut in half like when you have less than 80 dex? Or is it going to be a flat 5% to 10% decrease?  

It makes a huge difference. Need some numbers here.

At the moment they consider 2 options, and there is nothing about stats increase.

Even if they decrease parry chance as Bleak means in option 1. in case of refimenents or mage schools 70+ it would be at least 25% down from 35%. But even there I doubt it will brings the necessary effect, because with hightend senses you can increase parry chance for 5% so parry mage comes again on 30%.

Easy way to hit mages only is cap their fc/fcr if they use parry and magery together. I think its even enought to nerf magery skill only, no need myst/necro or sw, because all mages have 120 magery in their build and if they have it the nerf will hit it. To avoid the nerf of having 69,9 magery it will will destroy any mages builds, that why I'm pretty sure its enough just to nerf magery skill in combination with parry.

Evasion and confidence is the next point that have to hit mage only and not just any pvm toons.

If Bushido and Magery are over 70 fc/fcr will be capped same as by parry.

Bleak

I have updated the original post with the reduction values as well as the proposed alternative.

Seth

I completely, totally disagree with the first 2 options. If you do this, I want something for dexers as well because Dexer Warrior Mage cut up my Pure Parry Mage like Tofu.

Regarding the suggestion:
The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that have over 720.0 total skill points. Determine how much wiggle room for skill points above 720.

How can you penalise me for using jewelry which I paid for 75 million to happen to have say +10 focus? So the PVP masters in the west are peeing in their pants when they see me with some + skills?

If the problem is with 820 skills then the Alternative:

The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that have over 780.0 total skill points.

780 as an example. No, and never 720. Do this and I will ask you to refund my money for the jewels that we spent on. Hard cash.

However, please do this for all templates for "balance". Why can dexer have 840 skills but mage hybrid are penalised? Mages can attacked while moving, and get disrupted easily as well. Protection spell is flawed and my friend can kill me easily if I have that on.

Lastly, this maths discussion is not involving alot of the other pvp players in Japanese. Please include these in announcements in other languages as invite them for discussion. Again, I thought its better to discussion such issues with actual fight rather than theory and paper talk.

Whoever can write the best theory win here, but PVP is fought in the fields.

hunter11

i dont believe any of these suggestions youve posted bleak are a good choice i think its much more simple to lower the chance to block a small % chance and honestly the only ones who this is even a problem for is archer we are disarm spammed non stop as if we could even hit enough to catch a kill on a parry mage that knows what he is doing but really i think a small % taken out of parry chance is the right thing to do not mess with casting or anything else 

King_Greg

My 2 Cents. 

Lower Parrying chance if the player has a shield equipped but no weapon/book. Suggested Same parry chance as a weapon with no shield. 120 parrying = 20%.

Lower parry Chance shift to one handed Weapons from bushido if Magery or Mysticism >= 60 or Chivalry Mastery is on.

Currently 120 Bushido + 120 Parry = 35% Parry Chance. Suggested 20% If Magery or Mysticism >= 60 Or Chivalry Mastery is on. This means 120 Bushido Mages/Holy Fisters could only really utilize 60 Parrying. 

That's where I would start. Shouldn't be much of a change for Pvm Players. 
 

Paithan

@Bleak

First idea: First of all what does 15-25% reduction mean?  That is a huge gap.  I think a 10% reduction globaly would be more than adequate.  i.e. 25% at 120. If you do a 25% reduction that is 10% chance to parry at 120? and 5% at gm?  That is killing it and making it completely worthless.  That is not the idea of a nerf.

Refinements should have nothing to do with this change.

You should not limit it to casters.

2nd idea:  Awful and you ruin hybrid temps.  Hybrid temps are a mix between offense and defense.  I hope chiv users would get their fast cast reduced as well for having parry.  This should really not even be contemplated.

3rd idea:  I could get on board with a 10% reduction with over 820 skill points also.  <--- probably the best fix so then the people that do not have a bunch of gold on items can still play a 720 skill char and be ok.

amit

Did anyone mention disarm for shields? That could probably be the best fix for wrestle/anat parry mages.

amit

Paithan said:

Refinements should have nothing to do with this change.

Refinements with resists are broken on parry characters.

You sacrifice dci for more resists - although if you have 120 parry the way the game is set up now it actually makes you HARDER to hit with less DCI and parry.

If you're smart on your parry pvp chars, you really don't worry about your DCI. You ideally  want little to no DCI with parry. Test it on TC. See how much you tink.

ezikel

First idea make refienment completely useless and only nerf caster.
2nd idea is terrible and make all caster with parry complete unplayable
3rd idea only nerf the over 720 skill and a guys with 120 parry and 719  are ok lol

Suggestion -keep the reduce of parry ,but for everyone one that ave parry
                    - remove parry from restriction list for pure mage. pure mage are not stronger that any other temp with parry
                   - raise the dci caps for non parry skill