Parry Balance Discussion

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  • CookieCookie Posts: 643
    edited December 2018

    And PS.

    My personal response to all of this, is to not follow the crowd, I've stayed as pure as possible.

    I will not pick up a weapon, I would love if the Devs added a mages offhand globe (crystal ball style graphic) to our left hands, to replace the shield graphic. (Same stats as current shields, different graphic for mages).

    I would love if the Devs boosted Inscription and Magic Resist, to make pure mages more attractive again in PvP and PvM, this would actually increase diversity by pulling away from the current conglomerate of dexxers and hybrids.

    I use a pure scribe mage in pvm, and I switch scribe out for Spellweaving in pvp. It's the most pure, balanced spellcasting form I can find, and I do enjoy it tbh, spellweavers are a good balanced well rounded class.

    Basically, I should not be able to compete (without parry), the only reason I can, is I'm just that far ahead of the rest of you in pvp. :)

    But tbh, I've grown tired...

  • CovenantX said:
    Seth said:
    1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

    2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

    Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

    @ Bleak you can close this thread now. 

      1) Because Parry is broken when Mages use it against Dexers...  why else?

    no one cares about parry-mages vs <insert variant>-mages.   mages are the only ones that can kill something with Parry consistently..... because...spells?      Doesn't that explain why there are so many more parry/evade-mages than anything in UO?  

    Why do people refine fire resist to 75 when most dexers use cold or poison damage weapons & reducing DCI?    the obvious & logical answer is to provide more defense against mages.

      2) It's out-dated because of meditation = useless... Context, remember?  your template would be an easy win against any dexer ~90% of the time.  Against another mage it depends on your skill/timing interrupts vs theirs... A pvper would know that though.
    Seth said:
    Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

    But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
    I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

     by your own admission 'warrior mages' kill you in seconds.  I'm 100% sure it's because of their spell-play, because you have parry.  It's definitely not the weapon doing most of the damage.

      I'm just going out on a limb here and say it's safe to assume:

    1) You have less than 80 dex on your "Parry-Mage".   
    2) You aren't a pvper.
    3) Both 1 & 2, as it would explain exactly why you try and hold the position you do.

     Anyone that thinks Parry is fine is oblivious to the state of pvp right now.

     You can reforge/imbue an effective parry-mage suit... with or without meditation as part of your template.  a Parry-mage (using Parry Mastery) can use shield-bash as part of a combo effectively reaching 'weapon damage' levels... with wrestling.  Which is what 90%+ of all mages were before publish 96, Parry was broken then, it's broken now.  (of course they were mostly using higher-end suits than reforged+imbued, but beyond a certain point, it matters not).

    Absolutely agreed!!!
    80%+ mages in pvp have parry. Because its a trump vs any dexxer. Just 1 skill bring such huge advantage agains dexxer. As CovenantX said meditation is not more needed thank to new equip and that increase again mage potential. I cant believe that any parry mage who know how to use his build will ever lose to any dexxer, this is absolutely impossible, the only reason to loose is    
    - extremely bad ping, huge laag etc.
    - a mage got a call of a friend in rl and let his char afk
    - a mage has right skills, but cant use it properly

    Someone say here pure pary mage arent so strong as crossed parry mages like necro parry mages or myst parry mages and that is not true. Pure parry mage dont have such burst as both crossed parry mages, but they have still extremely huge damage if they know how to do it. As well they can use disarm every time and heal themself .

    Letz see what will happen if  nerf option 1 will come online.
    Parry and 70+ magery/myst/necro/sw the parry chance is getting dropped to 15% by 120 parry.
    Some parry mages will keep parry build, but finally have to learn and master their build to stay alive and to kill other. Some parry mages change their build to necro/myst/alchy/scribe/SW mages without parry. FInally mage will become mage and not a defensive fortress. They lose defence, but gain more offence.

    In case of nerf option 2.
    Parry and magery/myst/necro/sw 70+ will get fc/fcr 1/4 cap. Here I would suggest to add bushido as well, to nerf bush parry mages.
    In that case parry mage will keep their huge defence potential agains dexxer. They will be still hard to kill by dexxer, but they will be more easy defeated by any other non parry mages. Also in that case we'll get some kind stone-paper-scissors system. Dexxer can kill non parry mages, non parry mage will kill parry mages and parry mages will kill dexxer, but need as I said to master their build.

    I personally prefer the second option, because it will hit bush mages as well as parry mages and have some kind stone-paper-scissors system.

    Also I would bring some possibility to increase casting focus for mage and generally increase their cap to 20. Mage should be hit and get damage, but lesser disturbed by casting.


  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    CovenantX said:
    Seth said:
    1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

    2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

    Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

    @ Bleak you can close this thread now. 

      1) Because Parry is broken when Mages use it against Dexers...  why else?

    no one cares about parry-mages vs <insert variant>-mages.   mages are the only ones that can kill something with Parry consistently..... because...spells?      Doesn't that explain why there are so many more parry/evade-mages than anything in UO?  

    Why do people refine fire resist to 75 when most dexers use cold or poison damage weapons & reducing DCI?    the obvious & logical answer is to provide more defense against mages.

      2) It's out-dated because of meditation = useless... Context, remember?  your template would be an easy win against any dexer ~90% of the time.  Against another mage it depends on your skill/timing interrupts vs theirs... A pvper would know that though.
    Seth said:
    Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

    But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
    I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

     by your own admission 'warrior mages' kill you in seconds.  I'm 100% sure it's because of their spell-play, because you have parry.  It's definitely not the weapon doing most of the damage.

      I'm just going out on a limb here and say it's safe to assume:

    1) You have less than 80 dex on your "Parry-Mage".   
    2) You aren't a pvper.
    3) Both 1 & 2, as it would explain exactly why you try and hold the position you do.

     Anyone that thinks Parry is fine is oblivious to the state of pvp right now.

     You can reforge/imbue an effective parry-mage suit... with or without meditation as part of your template.  a Parry-mage (using Parry Mastery) can use shield-bash as part of a combo effectively reaching 'weapon damage' levels... with wrestling.  Which is what 90%+ of all mages were before publish 96, Parry was broken then, it's broken now.  (of course they were mostly using higher-end suits than reforged+imbued, but beyond a certain point, it matters not).

    Excuse me, I have 80+ dex, and that is the reason my template have very little plus skills because of focusing on adding more dex instead of plus skills.

    Yes warrior mages kill my character in seconds. I am trying to say that there are much more powerful templates to nerf than the pure mage, dexxer templates.

    Your discussion keep centering around parry mage versus dexxer? This concludes that you have very little experience in pvp. Or is this what Atlantic has to offer? What is the dexxer template? Does it have bushido? I tried against a sampire and it wasn't an easy kill either because he has evasion and confidence. Nothing wrong, and my parry does not guarantee that its safe. I lost 2 rounds and won 1 round. So why nerf parry mage?

    Ofcourse, who on earth is using a pure dexxer for pvp these days. Please state the template in full. I have stated mine.

    If you want to nerf, just Parry + Magery kills off many many templates. I wouldn't argue as much if you say nerf Parry + Magery + Bushido. But just Parry and Magery that is together?
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  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    Wentoxxx said:
    CovenantX said:
    Seth said:
    1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

    2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

    Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

    @ Bleak you can close this thread now. 

      1) Because Parry is broken when Mages use it against Dexers...  why else?

    no one cares about parry-mages vs <insert variant>-mages.   mages are the only ones that can kill something with Parry consistently..... because...spells?      Doesn't that explain why there are so many more parry/evade-mages than anything in UO?  

    Why do people refine fire resist to 75 when most dexers use cold or poison damage weapons & reducing DCI?    the obvious & logical answer is to provide more defense against mages.

      2) It's out-dated because of meditation = useless... Context, remember?  your template would be an easy win against any dexer ~90% of the time.  Against another mage it depends on your skill/timing interrupts vs theirs... A pvper would know that though.
    Seth said:
    Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

    But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
    I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

     by your own admission 'warrior mages' kill you in seconds.  I'm 100% sure it's because of their spell-play, because you have parry.  It's definitely not the weapon doing most of the damage.

      I'm just going out on a limb here and say it's safe to assume:

    1) You have less than 80 dex on your "Parry-Mage".   
    2) You aren't a pvper.
    3) Both 1 & 2, as it would explain exactly why you try and hold the position you do.

     Anyone that thinks Parry is fine is oblivious to the state of pvp right now.

     You can reforge/imbue an effective parry-mage suit... with or without meditation as part of your template.  a Parry-mage (using Parry Mastery) can use shield-bash as part of a combo effectively reaching 'weapon damage' levels... with wrestling.  Which is what 90%+ of all mages were before publish 96, Parry was broken then, it's broken now.  (of course they were mostly using higher-end suits than reforged+imbued, but beyond a certain point, it matters not).

    Absolutely agreed!!!
    80%+ mages in pvp have parry. Because its a trump vs any dexxer. Just 1 skill bring such huge advantage agains dexxer. As CovenantX said meditation is not more needed thank to new equip and that increase again mage potential. I cant believe that any parry mage who know how to use his build will ever lose to any dexxer, this is absolutely impossible, the only reason to loose is    
    - extremely bad ping, huge laag etc.
    - a mage got a call of a friend in rl and let his char afk
    - a mage has right skills, but cant use it properly

    Someone say here pure pary mage arent so strong as crossed parry mages like necro parry mages or myst parry mages and that is not true. Pure parry mage dont have such burst as both crossed parry mages, but they have still extremely huge damage if they know how to do it. As well they can use disarm every time and heal themself .

    Letz see what will happen if  nerf option 1 will come online.
    Parry and 70+ magery/myst/necro/sw the parry chance is getting dropped to 15% by 120 parry.
    Some parry mages will keep parry build, but finally have to learn and master their build to stay alive and to kill other. Some parry mages change their build to necro/myst/alchy/scribe/SW mages without parry. FInally mage will become mage and not a defensive fortress. They lose defence, but gain more offence.

    In case of nerf option 2.
    Parry and magery/myst/necro/sw 70+ will get fc/fcr 1/4 cap. Here I would suggest to add bushido as well, to nerf bush parry mages.
    In that case parry mage will keep their huge defence potential agains dexxer. They will be still hard to kill by dexxer, but they will be more easy defeated by any other non parry mages. Also in that case we'll get some kind stone-paper-scissors system. Dexxer can kill non parry mages, non parry mage will kill parry mages and parry mages will kill dexxer, but need as I said to master their build.

    I personally prefer the second option, because it will hit bush mages as well as parry mages and have some kind stone-paper-scissors system.

    Also I would bring some possibility to increase casting focus for mage and generally increase their cap to 20. Mage should be hit and get damage, but lesser disturbed by casting.


    I won't argue if there is a mage, he is very likely to use parry. Obviously because it is still effective, but it isn't OP. Today, if you are still using pure dexxer for pvp and lose against a Parry Mage, then please go ahead to upgrade to better templates that can kill a Parry Mage.

    That is the reason why I am also building a Bokuto mage with bushido, and if possible add poison and up to 820 skills. I am playing and testing around with options. This is the fun part about PVP, as the template can be quite versatile. I build a template and then think of a better template, e.g. whoever kills my player, what he did, and skills he might have.

    The real fight was never pure mage vs pure dexxer. What you are arguing and nerfing is a newbie pvp template.

    Consider nerfing super hybrid, 840 skills PVP players with 200-300 million worth of jewels and powerful stats. These are the power players.

    If it ever go to that level, I won't be the ones arguing here anymore. Someone else might come here to argue instead.

    Of all people, I hope the Dev understand my point here. That is enough.

    I will leave the future in your hands, and I hope you are making the right decision for "Everyone" and not just the few vocals here.

    Thanks and I am outta this thread, good luck.
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  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    edited December 2018
    Before I leave this thread completely, I am beginning to understand why.

    Starting from most basic newbie template, lock them inside a say 15x15 space.

    1) Pure Dexer Vs Pure Mage (inscribe, alchemy or just wrestling mage)
    Dexer should win. So the Mage go home and change his template to Parry Mage and challenge the Dexer again.

    2) Pure Dexer Vs Pure Mage + Parry
    Parry mage likely to win, or what CovenantX says is Parry mage win.
    So the Dexer loses this time, and he goes back and think.... let's me put some magery/bushido/mystic into my combo.

    3) Mage/Bushido Dexer Vs Parry Mage
    Hard to say, but I did lost to a good Japanese Mage Dexer and also my friends' sampire using my Parry Mager. 

    So I am upgrading my Parry Mage now to something even better.

    Say:
    Bushido + Sword + Mystic?
    Ninja + Fencing + Mage?
    Archery + Mystic + Bushido?
    840 skills?
    Budget 0.5 plat?

    Check out Youtube and learn how others fight as well.
    ====

    In this thread, we are just at point No.2, the pure Dexer lost to a Parry Mage and whine.
    Nerf the Parry Mage.

    So should I go back point No. 1 and say, Nerf the Dexer, the Weapon Special Moves are too powerful and my Pure Mage is hopeless now without Parrying! This is unfair!

    Now after writing this, I am satisfied and really getting out of this discussion thread.
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  • Paithan said:
    Although I think both of these changes are terrible-  Why did you not include the broken 4/6 chiv on the list of spellcasters?  It is the most broken spellcaster in game. If you are going to go through with either of these awful ideas- be sure to add it to ALL casters.  Thanks.


    How much is parry reduced if you have refinements/over 70 in scenario A?


    What is your fc capped at in scenario B? 


    It feels like you guys have not thought this through as per usual.


    Also- if you are going to reduce something for a mage for having refinements- what gets reduced on a pure dexer?  Kinda seems weird that one temp can have it with no disadvantage and another can't.

    Agree. It’s really incredible how the dev team has managed to not think this through and somehow overthink it at the same time. 

    All these proposed solutions are WAY too complicated for the average player to grasp and have way too many exceptions to the rules, thus increasing the gulf between pro-PvPers and everyone else. 

    You were on the right track with the recent change to 90. Keep it simple stupids.  Parry is for dexxers, make it require some more dex! 90 is ridiculously low, it should be 120 to be fully effective.  Try something simple first.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Yeah I have played this game for 20 years and it’s getting too complicated for me, think that about sums this game up.

    Complete lack of foresight by devs when they slowly introduce small changes over time that complicate things, let us talk about pure/non pure templates for pvp, where in the game does it display your max pvp spell damage or faster casting? I’ll tell you where, nowhere, on any client. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • cobbcobb Posts: 163
    edited December 2018
    Yes I agree. It is getting overly complicated.

    Although I picked the 3rd option, it would be even better to just not nerf parry in the first place. A parry nerf isn't even needed. Reading thru the comments, i am not the only one who thinks this way.

    Im not a fan of the combat changes from the last patch, and these proposed changes as well.  Things were quite balanced, but now it is getting weird with all these complicated rules.
  • This dev team is unnecessarily complicating things.

    5% decrease in parry cap, with a large reduction in evasion + increase in cool down.

    It's so easy. It makes sense, and it's moderate.

    Now let's watch them go scorched earth and kill a game everybody!

    If this balance gets screwed up like so many others, I'm ceasing my renewals. If I could get a refund on my GT codes I would.
  • Seth said:
    Excuse me, I have 80+ dex, and that is the reason my template have very little plus skills because of focusing on adding more dex instead of plus skills.

    Yes warrior mages kill my character in seconds. I am trying to say that there are much more powerful templates to nerf than the pure mage, dexxer templates.

    Your discussion keep centering around parry mage versus dexxer? This concludes that you have very little experience in pvp. Or is this what Atlantic has to offer? What is the dexxer template? Does it have bushido? I tried against a sampire and it wasn't an easy kill either because he has evasion and confidence. Nothing wrong, and my parry does not guarantee that its safe. I lost 2 rounds and won 1 round. So why nerf parry mage?

       
        a Parry-mage (using your template as the 'parry-mage model') is only slightly less damage output than a 'warrior-mage' btw.

        the more powerful templates to nerf are 90% mage templates.  they need Defensive nerfs though (Parry) some cry about Evasion, but if parry chances were reduced, Those templates wouldn't be evading as much.    They'd still be strong against dexers... just not near-impossible for a dexer to beat like they are now.

    Seth said:
    I won't argue if there is a mage, he is very likely to use parry. Obviously because it is still effective, but it isn't OP. Today, if you are still using pure dexxer for pvp and lose against a Parry Mage, then please go ahead to upgrade to better templates that can kill a Parry Mage.
      
       Everyone knows Mages are likely to have parry.    it's more common to run into a Mage with parry than it is to run into a dexer with it anymore.

      Here we are, that's part of the bias I was trying to get out of you.

     So your solution to the problem is:  If you still play a pure-dexer Upgrade your template to fight Parry-mages. (pure mage)    That's the problem, if a dexer doesn't upgrade his/her template, they cannot compete at a reasonable level.
     

     It doesn't matter what 'Pure" template the dexer has, it doesn't matter if they have the best items, a Parry-mage meeting the minimum requirements will win far more often than not. (some skill required)

    Cookie said:

    @ CovenantX,

    Due to ultra high itemisation, consumables and a deliberate policy of making everything the same - Hybrids, getting rid of any template diversity (dressed up as creating template diversity, it's always the way), we have a situation for Pure Mages where;

    Meditation = not required due to huge int, and mana regens available.

    Resist Spells = not required due to orange petals, trapped boxes, and cleanse.

    Inscription = not required due to the SDI and Casting Focus it provides being nothing compared to itemisation.

    3 core skills, ie 340 skillpoints + say +100 from items = 440 redundant skillpoints on a Mage to allocate elsewhere.

    Yep, Parry. Parry is the solution to the broken Pure Mages, and the drive towards Hybrids, Dexxers, Weapon Users and making everything the same.

    It is Chicken and Egg - and the Chicken (Weapon usage) came first, not the Egg (Parry).

    Fixing Parry, which is in fact just the innocent bystander in all of this, does absolutely nothing to the overall problem.

      @Cookie ; I thought Dismount was the most OP thing in UO?   It doesn't help the fact that dexers have been pigeon holed into using dismount in order to get kills, cause without it they've got nothing... Anyway..


      The itemization is what allowed Parry-mages to be possible (again).
    Do you recall the reasoning behind implementing the 80 dex requirement for Parry skill?  the same reason parry needs to get nerfed today Mages get too much out of it.

       I wouldn't put Resisting Spells in the same category as Meditation or Inscription not even remotely close.  It was pretty amusing though =]

    Mages > non-mages.. Parry amplifies that enough to where a dexer might as well not even try going against a parry-mage.

      So, we have the vast majority of every Mage template in active pvp running Parry, yet Parry+Magery isn't the issue?        Where them dexers at?

    Mages that use weapons without Parry+Bushido aren't the problem. 
    Mages that use Shields + Wrestling/Anatomy without Parry aren't the problem.
      
    You could be a Nerve-strike mage (without Parry) it's not the problem. 

    Dexers have a reasonable chance to beat them as does any mage template.  100% due to the passive block chances... from Parry.
     

     a -10% or -15% to passive parry chance penalty would suffice.   preferably targeted to Magery.& Chivalry   - bringing the passive parry chance at 120 Parry down to:

    Shield = 25-20%
    1-h Weapon = 15-20%
    2-h weapon = 25-30%


    The initial suggestions don't really solve the problem, they just sweep the problem under the rug.
    all too often, this is what makes people unhappy with changes in pvp.  -That much seems to be universally agreed upon.

    (Solution 1) Refinements are their own thing and should be re-balanced separately from Parry or other skills used in combination with them.

    (Solution 2)  There's no need to alter the casting caps,   It made sense with Magery + Chivalry, it doesn't make sense with Parry.

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
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  • cobbcobb Posts: 163
    Optimus said:

    5% decrease in parry cap, with a large reduction in evasion + increase in cool down.


    This would be good, but I guess it's too simple for the devs. Not enough rules and complications for the devs to do something like this
  • CookieCookie Posts: 643
    edited December 2018

    @CovenantX


    • Resist fits perfectly (in the list of core redundant skills), many pvp templates drop resist. It's one of the big issues, why I think it should be buffed to make sure templates (both mage and dexxer) require it, or trapped boxes fixed maybe.


    • Dismount is the most unfun part of pvp, it just kills the vibe. It is certainly overpowered. Running is just an essential part of current pvp, used by all classes. Dismount prevents running. Of course, I personally would prefer everyone was on foot chained to the same area. :) But nah, I also like using different terrains.


    • But I do agree with you - the initial fix does not solve any issues. (By the way, I still don't actually get your exact template issue? - Mage parry chiv?). If the Devs nerf Parry, players will still all use Parry, nothing at all will change, because Parry is a requirement in the current state of pvp. The pvp patch where Bleak wanted to nerf Parry last time (removing it from focussed list of skills and therefore reducing SDI), myself and my GM, both stood on parry mages at Test Centre Yew Moongate, sat there and said to him, this will not change a thing, it will not reduce parry usage, and somehow, god knows how, it even boosted parry usage. (Because all the Hybrids that he allowed to be created by the tactics change went weapon usage, meaning more parry was needed {I even forecast that at the time as well}). I say the same again.


    • I do think the issue is about triple skills going together, with Parry included- but I would be interested in which ones you think it is exactly, because I don't seem to have an issue with them. For me, the second anyone takes up Parry, they've wasted a ton of skill-points that allow me as one of the very rare pure mages to take advantage of. But I get that everyone needs Parry, because Dexxers rip them apart in seconds (or Dismount them - to be ganked on foot, thus altering the entire course of a team battle in a very unfair way).

    • "You could be a Nerve-strike mage (without Parry) it's not the problem. " - It is for me. ;) It's just another weapon user, another wannabee dexxer, and ironically for you, another template promoting the usage of Parry as a defence mechanism, the bit you don't see, the reverse side to that coin.
  •  Ok crazed mages, time to serious up. 

    @Bleak and the dev team are gonna pitch this change to the stakeholders at some scrum meeting and the first question from the producers is gonna be:

    #1 “What is the problem we are fixing and how much dev-time is it going to eat up?” 

    * Insert the best answer you can give. Keep in mind the people you’re explaining this to don’t play the game and have very little idea of what you’re talking very about!!! KEEP IT SIMPLE. *

    #2 “What is the easiest solution to this problem that requires the least amount of dev-time and is the easiest to test/implement/explain?”

    *** My answer: increase the dex needed to 120 ***

    If your answer is harder to explain than that, well good luck to you, math-nerd. But the rest of the drooling idiots and I need something we can understand. I’m not saying your solution isn’t good, hell it might be better! But we need something we can explain in simple terms to non-experts.

    The stakeholders have tons of stuff they want to use dev-time on, so you need to convince them that this change is more important and more time critical than whatever awful new expansion they are currently coding. (My guess is Ultima finally goes to outer space and we colonize the UO moon.)
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,206
    Take out ALL past "FIXES" and let the players decide what they want to play.  Quit trying to "FIX" our sandbox
  • CookieCookie Posts: 643
    edited December 2018

    LordSolor, fair enough post, I've tried to take you up on it, and failed tbh… the problem is too big.


    {I don't think your solution can work, because it pretty much only gives Parry skill to the warriors, dexxers and weapon users. They then get the benefit of all the overpowered weapons, as well as the only defence - I play a non parry mage, and can tell you, you get ripped to shreds so fast sometimes, you cannot even blink}.

    I think parry is the back-end of the issue, I think the front end needs fixing.

    I think the front end, is the dominance of weapon users, and that templates need to be able to play without parry.

    I'd actually be interested to see what else other players think is the problem, before trying to pull this together.

    I could add other issues - the impossibility to cure lethal poison from dexxer templates.

    Or, Deathstrike being used on the run by mounted dexxer, non ninja style templates.

    Trapped Boxes negating paralyse spell.

    Too much Dismount being used by dexxers, not available to mages.

    Notice 3 of the main issues up there, require parry to mitigate (deathstrike, dismount, lethal poison hit). I don't even mention splinter, or all the other specials I have no issues with.

    I do believe PvP should have a move, and counter move ability, at the start, we used to have this, mages had the ability to counter move. We cannot counter move dismount, we cannot cure lethal poison without 20 greater cure potions (rarely get time for an arch cure spell, especially with bleed, splinter, and many other effects being piled on top of you), our paralyse is broken far too easily, meaning we have almost no way to slow a dexxer, while they have every method under the sun of stopping mages. Only Cleanse can "cure" a mortal - again, the useful spells, have been spread out over the different mage-schools, which also does not help. Dexxers can access ALL weapon specials by changing weapons, Mages cannot access all spell types, useful ones are locked away in small specialist mageclasses.


    And I don't have a simple solution, I have a range of things to think about;

    • A huge amount of this has been caused by itemisation, the ability for classes to have full access to all stats and skills to the max, allowing the ones that can use them all effectively to benefit. Mages cannot - they don't use Dex. Hybrids can, they cast spells, they use weapons, and Dexxers can - they use weapons, and use non stop specials with their huge mana pools. Somehow dealing with too many bonuses from Itemisation could help, reviewing the caps, and it's almost a case of saying, if you have this skill cap in use, you can't have this - it's now become the combination of stuff that is an issue - not just as simple as "parry is broken it needs a fix".
    • I think - bring back pure style mages, the more of these there are, the less weapon users, the less requirement for parry in the first place. Look at the whole myriad of ways mages have been hit, what has decimated them, turned the game into this dexxer/hybrid mess, where parry is so dominant. Buff Inscription, Meditation, Magic Resist for mages, and Magic Resist, Healing for dexxers (to promote pure dexxers), pull the classes apart a bit more.


  • DraikeDraike Posts: 10
    Here is the simplest solution -done once and for all - remove all handicaps in pvp setup vs pve, let the players use any and all builds, items, masteries. To compensate the fragile human form since everything in the game oriented towards fighting big bosses and mean monsters, give players 1k of life (or something like that) when fighting in pvp. Thats it, nothing else, never have to balance this issuer again. I think it is ridiculous to punish players for using toys that they were given to begin with - train skill to 120, use items with +skill points, etc.  Let those legendary skills, super uber items, various templates shine to the fullest
  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    edited December 2018
    LordSolor said:
     Ok crazed mages, time to serious up. 

    @ Bleak and the dev team are gonna pitch this change to the stakeholders at some scrum meeting and the first question from the producers is gonna be:

    #1 “What is the problem we are fixing and how much dev-time is it going to eat up?” 

    * Insert the best answer you can give. Keep in mind the people you’re explaining this to don’t play the game and have very little idea of what you’re talking very about!!! KEEP IT SIMPLE. *

    #2 “What is the easiest solution to this problem that requires the least amount of dev-time and is the easiest to test/implement/explain?”

    *** My answer: increase the dex needed to 120 ***

    If your answer is harder to explain than that, well good luck to you, math-nerd. But the rest of the drooling idiots and I need something we can understand. I’m not saying your solution isn’t good, hell it might be better! But we need something we can explain in simple terms to non-experts.

    The stakeholders have tons of stuff they want to use dev-time on, so you need to convince them that this change is more important and more time critical than whatever awful new expansion they are currently coding. (My guess is Ultima finally goes to outer space and we colonize the UO moon.)

    cobb said:
    Yes I agree. It is getting overly complicated.

    Although I picked the 3rd option, it would be even better to just not nerf parry in the first place. A parry nerf isn't even needed. Reading thru the comments, i am not the only one who thinks this way.

    Im not a fan of the combat changes from the last patch, and these proposed changes as well.  Things were quite balanced, but now it is getting weird with all these complicated rules.
    Agreed, keep it simple, KISS.

    Pure dexxer's toasted by pure parry mage, whine.
    So Nerf Parry Mages. 

    So next:

    Pure mages (except Parry) minced by Dexxers, I shall whine even harder!

    Nerf all Dexxer Special Moves!

    When is this ever going to end!?
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  • I wouldn’t vote for any of those ideas.

    refinement problem?  Nerf refinements.

    hybrid problem?  Nerf jewelry overcapping 720 skills.

    Nerfing casting cap because someone has parry?  Terrible idea.




  • Paithan said:
    CovenantX said:


       Mages typically do have much higher offense & defense than dexers do.
      4/6 chivalry is the only thing that exceeds the recovery (healing) over any other template, but they lack the offense to kill anyone.  
     
    That being said, I'm glad they're going the skill vs skill route to adjust parry, I don't see a reason to add all the casting skills to it though, Chivalry is debatable...  but Necro, Mysticism, or Spellweaving?   Those skills aren't really useful as standalone skills, they basically need to be combined with magery for them to be viable.

    They support Magery very well (and all of those skills would be paired with Magery (maybe Chivalry) anyway) so just adding Magery to the list reducing parry would cover everything that's better than it should be without unnecessarily dragging unused templates down with it.

    Side note:  some people posting here are against this because it would affect their 'sampire' (pvm) templates. (Necromancy &/Chivalry + parry) etc etc.

    Parry just allows mages to get so many more spells off, regardless if the spell is offensive or defensive It's strong enough to where dexers might as well not even log in unless they have a group to gank with...  if a parry-mage plays defensive against any type of dexer, they'll never die.

    Mages can compete with anything they want regardless if Parry is part of their template or not, one vs one or otherwise.

    I also think it's pretty funny that you guys claim "evasion" is overpowered though.
    I mean, the only thing that's changed with evasion came with global loot.....  that would be Mages can now use it with little to no sacrifice same deal with parry.

    if parry chances are reduced w/Magery+Parry it should carry over to Evasion chances as a result of it.   (Magery & Chivalry perhaps? probably for the best)

    We'll have to see what other options come about,  I'm not really a fan of the Fc/Fcr penalty  But, I will definitely go with it if that's the only option for a reasonable balance between mages & dexers in pvp.  Parry has been broken long enough.


    the Refinement thing doesn't really make sense, it should be skill-only imo, but if it is based on refinements, there has to be away to remove refinements from Armor added Which there should be anyway.


    Parry mages do not have more offense and defense then dexers. They have way less DPS and both their offense and defense can be interrupted.  If they are going to put something ridiculous in with casting classes- it should affect ALL classes.  Why does a dexer get to use parry and necro/chiv/etc with no punishment but a mage cant? 

     Makes no sense.  No "pure" skills are useful anymore as stand alone skills.  

    This game is about balance.  You can have high offensive chars that can kill fast but have a lot of limitations/ you can have high defensive chars that are impossible to kill but cant kill anyone/ and you can have hybrid temps that have a mix of both.


    Dexers do not have it rough with splintering wep.  They hit parry mages a lot and only need to string together a good 4 or so hits with splinter to kill someone.  The only class that I think has the short end of the stick right now is archers.


    I would love to see you go up against good dexers one v one without parry. You would get eaten alive.

    Evasion is overpowered.  That is why literally everyone uses it when group fighting.  The 12 second cool down on 8 seconds of evading 60% of spells?  That is a joke.


    The only thing I can agree with you on is the refinements.
    This.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 643
    edited December 2018
    Oreogl said:
    I wouldn’t vote for any of those ideas.

    refinement problem?  Nerf refinements.

    hybrid problem?  Nerf jewelry overcapping 720 skills.

    Nerfing casting cap because someone has parry?  Terrible idea.


    Yep, agreed, I think people don't really get the issue here, or the solution.

    I actually logged in for the first time in a month last night, quite a few of my guild were on, my GM told me to get to Despise, and we did a really cool Baracoon. We got scouted, fine, 1 orange showed up, then a team showed up, and we had a cracker of a fight. We were basically so happy to have a team fight for the first time in ages, our team went all running man. We had a great fight, but lost, our tactics were bad because we just wanted to fight and run so much - had we taken and held the Island, we could have won, and kept the boss.

    But during this, I chatted to my GM a bit, and he came up with a few ideas.


    • If it's mage/parry/bushido that is the issue, nerf the evasion when used in this combination.
    • Weapon users just basically hit too much, and have too many specials - nerf hit chance, will indirectly fix parry.
    • Hybrids using weapons, should have their hit chance reduced, and/or their SDI reduced when using spells - they basically can do too much and have full effects.
    • Raise the DCI cap back up for mages without parry.
    • Put a skillcap on +skill jewellery.
    • Analyse skills like Magery, Spellweaving, Chivalry, Bushido, Necro, Ninja, Parry, Mystic, don't let them have the full effect of certain spells at a low level of skillpoints, it allows templates to get full powerful effects in some cases, for only 60 skillpoints invested in a skill.


    These are just ideas, but they give a better view of some of the issues maybe.

  • King_GregKing_Greg Posts: 182
    edited December 2018
    It's all just basic Math, Decreasing the max parry chance to 30% isn't going to be enough. See spreadsheet below. Honestly if you are a human parry mage your parry chance is probably already 30% because of the JOAT Bushido and most players don't even notice. 

    25% When factored with hit Lower defense would be a good starting point, but 20% max parry chance for the skill combinations I mentioned before would put things more in line to where Hit lower defense more or less negates parry chance against those templates. (This would put us back to what things were like when imbuing first came out but DCI could be overcapped) 

    Shield with Open Hand: 20% Max Parry Chance (Pots or Parry, your choice) 
    Magery or Myst >= 60 Or Chivalry Mastery on. 20% Max Parry Chance with 1 handed weapon (Negates bushido shift) 

    Leave the skill requirement to reach 20% Parry chance the same. The goal is more template diversity not less. This means you aren't just Nerfing parry mages, you are also freeing up 60 Skill points. This also means that parry mages can still achieve max Parry chance, but only if they sacrifice potions the same way two handed warriors and shield users do. 



  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    JoaT doesn’t calc bushido.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • Id love to say that this has a simple solution but its not gonna be simple.  the massive global loot change a few years back did too much damage to both mages and archer/thrower setups.   I can say that lowering max parry chance to 20% when combined with casting schools is a good way to fix this but I think the speed of the easy to make 210+ stam suits would just rise up and take over pvp again.  You could put in a stam cap to negate that  or slow wep speeds of bows, but how could you do that without affecting the pvm side.  I also think bandage cap should be 6 secs and not 4 but im sure everyone would lose their minds over that too.   We certainly cant just go back and delete global loot items without massive crying and quitting, I personally wouldn't care if it was all deleted but people would be upset.  So how do you solve these issues?   All I can say is good luck in your attempts.
  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    edited December 2018
    I have been thinking about comments similar to this :easy to make 210+ stam suits.

    And also other "complaints" about powerful combinations, and 840 skills etc.

    The fact is, it is very Hard and Expensive to achieve such high specs with equipment. The "perfect" gear is not easy to get.

    Just because you see, or killed by someone who has such gear, does not mean they are selling like hotcakes on the street at just 100GP and readily available like a piece of bacon or ginger.

    And then after getting such high specs, we need to have equal experience level to be able to "Wield" such power artifacts that cost Platinums and sourced over time because they are really hard to find.

    I think the current PVP is already matured and the Dev should not make changes now as we already do not have the same population as before to finetune the system. Changing it due to a few vocal forum posters would likely to be a disaster. There are still many good players out there but they couldn't be bothered to post here. Just take Asia - there is a significant fraction of pvp players there but they do not contribute to this discussion. 

    I am still asking not to change hastily.

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  • In the first year that global loot came out it wasn't that easy, but since it was massively script farmed through Putrifier and other ML monsters before they fixed it, it became very common to have these high stat/skill suits.   I can make either of those suits in less then a day right now and not spend more then like 100-150m.   

    I think parry just needs to come down a bit when combined with casting schools then see how that goes for a patch and adjust more if necessary.  

  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    edited December 2018
    In the first year that global loot came out it wasn't that easy, but since it was massively script farmed through Putrifier and other ML monsters before they fixed it, it became very common to have these high stat/skill suits.   I can make either of those suits in less then a day right now and not spend more then like 100-150m.   

    I think parry just needs to come down a bit when combined with casting schools then see how that goes for a patch and adjust more if necessary.  

    I have 2 legendary imbuer myself so I am not referring to something you can make easily in the own backyard.

    Unless u know of an exploit to farm Legendary gears with specific combinations.

    Sure parry can come down a bit for parry mages, so it's less taxing for the rare, pure pvp Dexxers.

    So should all the HCI, SSI and Special Moves that Dexxers can use. Splintering with bleeding, force walking, mortal strikes, etc.
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  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    edited December 2018
    Can we have mages casting spell while the horse is moving? Why not? Dexers and archers can still fight with their weapons while moving.

    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
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  • Garth_GreyGarth_Grey Posts: 1,094
    I would have much rather seen a "High Seas 2.0 discussion" brought up before yet another unnecessary potential PvP change, I know, my comment brought nothing to this discussion, this will be my only one.
    You and Several Others like this.


    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  • Seth said:
    Can we have mages casting spell while the horse is moving? Why not? Dexers and archers can still fight with their weapons while moving.

    Dexxers have to be point blank. 

    Ranged Damage Dealers have to use Mana for only Base hits that are now 100% Physical. IF they have hit spell other than velocity it lags them when it goes off. 

    Both still have RNG to hit their targets. Refer to spreadsheet I posted earlier. 

    The only counter to mages being able to cast on the run would be for them to make spells a % Chance to land and then we open up a whole other can of worms. Could you imagine only haveing a 1% Chance to land 4 spells in a row? The more RNG added to pvp, the worse it becomes. 

    I would be curious to see a test center with that rule put on it though for fun.
  • Mervyn said:
    JoaT doesn’t calc bushido.
    I would like for them to add this to the Wiki for Joat and parrying if it is true. The only references i've seen is players talking about old five on fridays, but no one who could link to it, And someone quoting a book in game.

    I Understand it's an old game, but you shouldn't have to DIG through google to find a five on friday from 14 years ago or have played the game back in the samurai empire to learn that JOAT doesn't effect bushido parry chance. 

    And actually as I look at the new character creation screen, I'm starting to understand why UO hasn't really attracted a new player base in the last 10 years. Starting a new thread for that rant. 


This discussion has been closed.