Parry Balance Discussion

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  • PaithanPaithan Posts: 117
    amit said:
    Paithan said:

    Refinements should have nothing to do with this change.


    Refinements with resists are broken on parry characters.

    You sacrifice dci for more resists - although if you have 120 parry the way the game is set up now it actually makes you HARDER to hit with less DCI and parry.

    If you're smart on your parry pvp chars, you really don't worry about your DCI. You ideally  want little to no DCI with parry. Test it on TC. See how much you tink. :)
    I run 35-40% dci quite often.  I notice a big difference in how often I am hit with 35% vs 45% and both temps have parry.  So i will have to disagree.
  • ezikel said:



                     ...   - remove parry from restriction list for pure mage. pure mage are not stronger that any other temp with parry...
                      
    Pure mage is mage with only mage skills without any parry, in that case pure mage isnt affected by any nerfs, so you shouldnt be worry. If it has parry than its not more pure mage, but a parry mage. Parry mage in current version hast not only huge defence, but can still attack with shield bash and everyone know that. That's a big benefit and no need to understate that advantage to deal 35 damage with stun. As well parry mages cas disarm/stun with wrest. And for that build you dont need 720+ skill points. Also problem is by magery + parry in one build.

    I can remember long time ago in the time before age of shadow, all shields were without property spell chaneling and if you want to cast any spell a shield droped into backpack. With release of AoS whole game changed a lot, and to bring some bonus to mages they could wear shields for getting its bonus in form of lmc, resist, dci. etc. But mages learned to abuse this feature and took parry as extra defence and this has brought us to the current discussion. A mage should be often hit by any meele than every 3-4-th hit. The current game mechanic cant forbid to anyone to take this skill, but it can bring much less benefit than now, because now its imbalanced. Every parry mage laught seeing how dexxer hit him every 3d hit with ~15-20 damage and he heal himself with "heal" spell in 0,25 for 13-15 hp. Even great heal has delay of 0,75 sec and heal huge amount of hp. By seeing that low cast time dont forget that meele can swing in best case with 1,25.  A parry mage even dont need to run from any dexxer, he can just stay and heal himself and even there a dexxer couldnt bring that parry mage under 50% hp and for sure couldnt kill it.

    If you dont believe me you can create 2 chars on TC a parry mage and a dexxer. Then let a dexxer hit that parry mage and count how often he hit. After that you can build your own opinion regarding that case. If you see that a dexxer do enough damage and can kill that parry mage in currently form than you dont need to change anything. But I doubt it.


  • MerusMerus Posts: 304
    My suggestion...

    .25% block and evasion chance reduction for every point of skill over 770 (12.5% reduction at 820 skill).

    Remove the dex requirement for block chance but make the dex requirement for shield bash to work at all be 80.

    Result is that parry mages with less than 770 skill points who aren’t using their shield offensively get some mana back and keep their defense.  Dex requirement kicks in to use the shield offensively.  Excess +skill items achieve some balance by reducing block/evasion chance.
  • PaithanPaithan Posts: 117
    Wentoxxx said:
    ezikel said:



                     ...   - remove parry from restriction list for pure mage. pure mage are not stronger that any other temp with parry...
                      
    Pure mage is mage with only mage skills without any parry, in that case pure mage isnt affected by any nerfs, so you shouldnt be worry. If it has parry than its not more pure mage, but a parry mage. Parry mage in current version hast not only huge defence, but can still attack with shield bash and everyone know that. That's a big benefit and no need to understate that advantage to deal 35 damage with stun. As well parry mages cas disarm/stun with wrest. And for that build you dont need 720+ skill points. Also problem is by magery + parry in one build.

    I can remember long time ago in the time before age of shadow, all shields were without property spell chaneling and if you want to cast any spell a shield droped into backpack. With release of AoS whole game changed a lot, and to bring some bonus to mages they could wear shields for getting its bonus in form of lmc, resist, dci. etc. But mages learned to abuse this feature and took parry as extra defence and this has brought us to the current discussion. A mage should be often hit by any meele than every 3-4-th hit. The current game mechanic cant forbid to anyone to take this skill, but it can bring much less benefit than now, because now its imbalanced. Every parry mage laught seeing how dexxer hit him every 3d hit with ~15-20 damage and he heal himself with "heal" spell in 0,25 for 13-15 hp. Even great heal has delay of 0,75 sec and heal huge amount of hp. By seeing that low cast time dont forget that meele can swing in best case with 1,25.  A parry mage even dont need to run from any dexxer, he can just stay and heal himself and even there a dexxer couldnt bring that parry mage under 50% hp and for sure couldnt kill it.

    @ Bleak 
    If you dont believe me you can create 2 chars on TC a parry mage and a dexxer. Then let a dexxer hit that parry mage and count how often he hit. After that you can build your own opinion regarding that case. If you see that a dexxer do enough damage and can kill that parry mage in currently form than you dont need to change anything. But I doubt it.


    Ya and after you build them- let a real pvper build them and then try fighting a stacked dexer.  Fighting them with parry you have a shot at living.  Fighting without you'll have to have some good RNG not to die.
  • PaithanPaithan Posts: 117
    Merus said:
    My suggestion...

    .25% block and evasion chance reduction for every point of skill over 770 (12.5% reduction at 820 skill).

    Remove the dex requirement for block chance but make the dex requirement for shield bash to work at all be 80.

    Result is that parry mages with less than 770 skill points who aren’t using their shield offensively get some mana back and keep their defense.  Dex requirement kicks in to use the shield offensively.  Excess +skill items achieve some balance by reducing block/evasion chance.
    This is a pretty cool idea.  But I think you would need a cap on the reduction (for both parry and evasion). 

    Also- how do you get around jewels that have extra skill that you aren't using for your temp?  
  • MerusMerus Posts: 304
    Paithan said:
    Merus said:
    My suggestion...

    .25% block and evasion chance reduction for every point of skill over 770 (12.5% reduction at 820 skill).

    Remove the dex requirement for block chance but make the dex requirement for shield bash to work at all be 80.

    Result is that parry mages with less than 770 skill points who aren’t using their shield offensively get some mana back and keep their defense.  Dex requirement kicks in to use the shield offensively.  Excess +skill items achieve some balance by reducing block/evasion chance.
    This is a pretty cool idea.  But I think you would need a cap on the reduction (for both parry and evasion). 

    Also- how do you get around jewels that have extra skill that you aren't using for your temp?  
    Not sure a cap is needed.  The more +skill the more you balance the parry.  An 820 template loses 12.5%.... an 850 template loses 20%. 

    This would be a choice in the +skill items you use.  Having +skill is a choice and there is already some flexibility built in with 50 skill points before the penalty starts to kick in.  Ultimately it would mean being a little more selective in +skill jewelry, but I’m not sure that is a bad thing.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 643
    edited December 2018
    Bleak said:

    The goal for these changes are to provide a balance between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates and emphasize the differences in template selection.

    The parry chance for PvP attackers will be reduced by 15%-25%* for defenders that use refinements or have spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) that are greater than or equal to 70.0 or
    Players using spell skills (Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, or Spellweaving) will have their faster casting cap reduced by 1 to 2 points* when their parry skill is greater than or equal to 70.0

    Ok, I've not played for a few weeks, work been really busy, and I've been into other hobbies etc, so I feel a bit rusty.

    Of the 2 options, only 1 can really happen, ie the first option, reducing parry chance is "only" a nerf, whereas reducing faster cap casting is a complete wipe-out for a mage.


    Back to the main goal, and I'm actually really glad you put this in, because it's often really hard trying to think what the solution is, when you don't precisely know what the Devs are even aiming for.

    "The goal for these changes are to provide a balance between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates and emphasize the differences in template selection. "


    I am personally still struggling with the concept that parry is the issue at all.

    When elite players say parry is the "issue", they mean their hybrids or dexxers cannot kill parry mages in about 10 seconds flat, so that's an "issue". The issue certainly isn't that parry style mages have such high dps they burst you down in seconds... {unlike the other way around}.

    I don't even use parry, I run a pure mage, so I am unbiased in a sense, I used to run parry. I see friends run parry mages still, they only make their parry mages look good, because they are amongst the best pvpers and team players in the game. {Off topic - I would love to see you promote pure scribe mages, by raising our fast cast to 4...}.

    The only way I see parry can be an issue, is on a parry bushido weapon mage, where they have the usage of evasion, confidence, parry, shield bash and - most importantly, all weapons and their related weapon skill specials. The problem with these hybrids, is they really get to use everything to the max, and current equipment allows them to have everything, stats and skills.

    Now it all depends on how you class these templates - are they hybrids, is it the parry making them overpowered? My personal opinion is these are dexxers, they behave like modern dexxers, with full weapon usage and all related weapon specials, huge mana, huge dex, all being used to useful effect. They have a weapon usually, they have high dex, its this attacking force that is making them so highly destructive, not their defensive game (this just makes them annoying). And as others have mentioned, parry mages themselves, are certainly underpowered for damage, and do sacrifice a lot of stats for no reason.

    Where am I going with this?

    "To emphasize the differences between template selection".

    Pure dexxers are obvious, pure mages are obvious (to make it more obvious - Healing , Inscription and Magic Resist skills need to be buffed to place more emphasis on pures - these are core skills that have been left to rot, to allow the rise of Hybrid characters to have it all - if these skills were more important, it would be harder to ditch them), Hybrids currently basically have everything. (But then dexxers are not far behind {with huge mana pools, massive weapon selection and lethal specials added to their already high dex} - hence parry being so universal in the first place as defence against this onslaught).

    If a character goes Hybrid, it must (but doesn't currently) make a choice between being a defensive template, or an offensive template, or, it must chose between having it all, but being slightly weaker at it all. They cannot have it all, and be stronger in every aspect. The oldschool Archer Mages, were a classy template, really had to balance things off in a difficult way, they couldn't have everything - and the good ones, earned a lot of respect.

    I personally do agree you need to rebalance Hybrids, but I'm not sure parry is the complete solution - a lot of this issue is caused by dexxers and their very wide ranging abilities, that Hybrids have tagged onto - many mages have developed dexxer tendancies, have it all, and have become a bit OP, but again to emphasize, much like certain dexxers out there also.




  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 339
    edited December 2018
    amit said:
    Paithan said:

    Refinements should have nothing to do with this change.


    Refinements with resists are broken on parry characters.

    You sacrifice dci for more resists - although if you have 120 parry the way the game is set up now it actually makes you HARDER to hit with less DCI and parry.

    If you're smart on your parry pvp chars, you really don't worry about your DCI. You ideally  want little to no DCI with parry. Test it on TC. See how much you tink. :)
      Refinements should remove any bonus LMC from armor, so people with 5/5 items refined would be capped at 40/40 LMC or refinement altering caps should only have an effect in Pvm.
    - an Option to remove Refinements definitely needs to be added.


    Parry chances should be reduced only if paired with Magery or Chivalry+Bushido. that's it.
    Any other skills paired with Parry would act exactly as they do now, and probably be just as non-existent as they are now.    -these templates would really need like a 'warrior focus spec' or something down the road for them to be effective in pvp.

    Yes, refinements (+ resistance caps) or even just running low DCI in general is better if you have parry  because Parry is checked after dodge chance... therefore DCI can prevent you from blocking... it really only matters if you use things like Counter Attack or you have Reactive Paralyze because both can only proc when you parry, and they do nothing if you dodge attacks,


    Paithan said:
    Merus said:
    My suggestion...

    .25% block and evasion chance reduction for every point of skill over 770 (12.5% reduction at 820 skill).


    Also- how do you get around jewels that have extra skill that you aren't using for your temp?  
        yea, this is why I don't like the idea.  but also, if you happen to use +parry increase beyond the threshold, you're penalizing parry by increasing parry. that should never happen.

    Even if you could cancel out skill bonuses from applying, the 'cap' to start penalizing parry would have to be much lower than 770.0   it would have to start around 740 or even lower than that.
    not really a fan, I'd much rather see a hard-cap on skill increase if that is possible. no one should exceed 800 skill points (IMO).  750 skill is all you'd need to make an evade-mage with 60-tactics without giving up anything aside from mana regen.

    It's important for parry to require the full skill investment to reach a block chance cap.  it just has to be less effective for templates that gain both Defense & Offense-ability from dodging/blocking (Mages)

    Parry would still need adjustments even without skill bonus increase items though. Skill bonus items aren't the only thing that contributes to this issue, nor is it the most important part.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
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  • TesicTesic Posts: 1
    I want the ability to add mage armor back and take off refinements.  I only paly dexers and I don't think parry needs a nerf. I do however think evasion needs a fix.  I want it to not evade 100% and give like a 20-25% chance to hit them thru it.
  • I'd like to see something like this:

    if (bold) skills => 70.0 or higher)
    Passive parry chances. @120 parry
    Parry+Magery (shield & no bushido) maximum 'passive' block chance of 20% (from 35%)
    Parry+Magery (1h weapon) maximum 'passive' block chance of 15% (from 30%)
    Parry+Magery (2h weapon) maximum passive block chance of 25% (from 40%)

    Chivalry+Parry (shield & no Bushido) maximum 'passive' block chance of 35% (no change)
    Chivalry+Bushido+Parry (1h weapon) maximum 'passive' block chance of 15% (from 30%)
    Chivalry+Bushido+Parry (2h weapon) maximum 'passive' block chance of 25% (from 40%)


    Evasion: Increases Parry chance by up to 170% & allowing you to block magical attacks for the duration of effect.

    While Evasion is Active @120 Parry
    Bushido+Parry+Magery block chance during evasion: (if Magery => 70.0 or higher)
    40.5% block/evade with a 1h weapon.
    67.5% block/evade with a 2h weapon.

    Bushido+Chivalry+Parry: @120 parry
    40.5% block/evade with 1h weapon
    67.5% block/evade with 2h weapon

    Bushido+Parry templates without Magery or Chivalry => 70.0 would have the full benefit of Parry (Shield) or Parry & Bushido (1h or 2h weapons) as follows.

    81% block/evade with 1h weapon
    100% block/evade with 2h weapon

    Parry no longer requires dexterity.

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,206
    edited December 2018
    Cookie said:

    Ok, I've not played for a few weeks, work been really busy, and I've been into other hobbies etc, so I feel a bit rusty.

    Of the 2 options, only 1 can really happen, ie the first option, reducing parry chance is "only" a nerf, whereas reducing faster cap casting is a complete wipe-out for a mage.


    Back to the main goal, and I'm actually really glad you put this in, because it's often really hard trying to think what the solution is, when you don't precisely know what the Devs are even aiming for.

    "The goal for these changes are to provide a balance between hybrid templates vs mage/dex templates and emphasize the differences in template selection. "


    I am personally still struggling with the concept that parry is the issue at all.

    When elite players say parry is the "issue", they mean their hybrids or dexxers cannot kill parry mages in about 10 seconds flat, so that's an "issue". The issue certainly isn't that parry style mages have such high dps they burst you down in seconds... {unlike the other way around}.

    I don't even use parry, I run a pure mage, so I am unbiased in a sense, I used to run parry. I see friends run parry mages still, they only make their parry mages look good, because they are amongst the best pvpers and team players in the game. {Off topic - I would love to see you promote pure scribe mages, by raising our fast cast to 4...}.

    The only way I see parry can be an issue, is on a parry bushido weapon mage, where they have the usage of evasion, confidence, parry, shield bash and - most importantly, all weapons and their related weapon skill specials. The problem with these hybrids, is they really get to use everything to the max, and current equipment allows them to have everything, stats and skills.

    Now it all depends on how you class these templates - are they hybrids, is it the parry making them overpowered? My personal opinion is these are dexxers, they behave like modern dexxers, with full weapon usage and all related weapon specials, huge mana, huge dex, all being used to useful effect. They have a weapon usually, they have high dex, its this attacking force that is making them so highly destructive, not their defensive game (this just makes them annoying). And as others have mentioned, parry mages themselves, are certainly underpowered for damage, and do sacrifice a lot of stats for no reason.

    Where am I going with this?

    "To emphasize the differences between template selection".

    Pure dexxers are obvious, pure mages are obvious (to make it more obvious - Healing , Inscription and Magic Resist skills need to be buffed to place more emphasis on pures - these are core skills that have been left to rot, to allow the rise of Hybrid characters to have it all - if these skills were more important, it would be harder to ditch them), Hybrids currently basically have everything. (But then dexxers are not far behind {with huge mana pools, massive weapon selection and lethal specials added to their already high dex} - hence parry being so universal in the first place as defence against this onslaught).

    If a character goes Hybrid, it must (but doesn't currently) make a choice between being a defensive template, or an offensive template, or, it must chose between having it all, but being slightly weaker at it all. They cannot have it all, and be stronger in every aspect. The oldschool Archer Mages, were a classy template, really had to balance things off in a difficult way, they couldn't have everything - and the good ones, earned a lot of respect.

    I personally do agree you need to rebalance Hybrids, but I'm not sure parry is the complete solution - a lot of this issue is caused by dexxers and their very wide ranging abilities, that Hybrids have tagged onto - many mages have developed dexxer tendancies, have it all, and have become a bit OP, but again to emphasize, much like certain dexxers out there also.




    Stand by here people @Cookie is going to have a heart attack, are you ready for this, Cookie is %1000 RIGHT, there I said it.  I always thought that UO was suppose to be a sandbox not a sandbox with restrictions.  If you want to be "A" be A and understand A's strength and weakness or be "B" and understand those also.  UO needs to stop trying to FIX everything and let people be what they want.  I am a crafter so when is UO going to NERF everybody so my crafter is equal, it is not fair I tell you, WWHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
  • Cookie said:

    I personally do agree you need to rebalance Hybrids, but I'm not sure parry is the complete solution - a lot of this issue is caused by dexxers and their very wide ranging abilities, that Hybrids have tagged onto - many mages have developed dexxer tendancies, have it all, and have become a bit OP, but again to emphasize, much like certain dexxers out there also.

       
       Mages have far more than any dexer could achieve in pvp in offense,, dexers have more in defense... except the level of defense Recovery (4/6 chivalry) is somewhat redundant (IMO).
    That's why hybrid mages are more popular than any 4/6 chivalry template...  then again, mages were more popular than dexers even before parry-mages were removing dexers from the playing field.

    I don't really think hybrids need to be rebalanced much if at all,

    I think dexers need to be buffed, by way of a 'Focus spec" for pure dexers (excluding Magery (obviously) Mysticism, Necromancy, Chivalry, Bushido, Ninjitsu & Spellweaving).  because they're basically extinct from UO....in both pvp & pvm lol    hopefully something that's coming down the road.

    There should also be a difference between Focused Melee-dexer (Fencing, Mace Fighting, Swordsmanship) & Focused Ranged-dexer (Archery & Throwing).



    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    The most powerful skill is to run. Mages can't cast spell when running, and Dexers can't hit a target that is running away.

    Given 2 pvper inside an arena with limited running space, who is at disadvantage? 

    Mages because spells can be interrupted. Even if dexers can't always land a hit but he has an arsenal of powerful special moves that kill mages easily. Without parry protection, even 120 wrestling is rubbish. 

    All the maths and theory, it depends heavily on the individual experience, combat scenario, war or 1vs 1 etc. 
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  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    Completely disagree with this statement below. I think this I a bias call.

    "Parry chances should be reduced only if paired with Magery".

    You only have mathematical theory and unproven in the field. As I said, the world isn't swarmed with Parry Mages as the no. 1 choice.

    It is so funny that I am figuring out how to build a Bokuto Splintering mage with Boshido because I feel its more powerful than my 720 skill pure Parry Mage.

    And someone dedicated an entire thread to nerf my so called poorer pvp template.
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  • CookieCookie Posts: 643

    @Bilbo lol. :)


    @Seth, I agree with a lot of what you say. I really cannot see how mage/parry is an issue.


    Maybe it's triple combinations (of stuff that shouldn't go together - bit like Sampires in pvm) that are an issue, I'd possibly restart this, by collecting a more clear view of what the real issues for players are?

    For example, CovenantX and myself have a completely opposite view re mages and dexxers, however I think we can both agree pure "focussed" mages and dexxers could use some attention. Both hardly exist, yet both were the backbone of pvp. (and for me, pvm also).


    My worst parts of pvp include;

    Running = the most powerful pvp asset. (I agree Seth).

    • Mages have para spell, which is broken by trapped boxes instantly, or negated by magic resist (fair enough), but the combination of these means a large majority of templates can drop resist too easily, meaning hybrids have it too easy to add too many op skills. Mages cannot stop, or prevent dexxers from running. (Mystic mages can with sleep, but then they cannot have parry, which makes them instantly mincemeat v dexxers so is fair enough - however, if a template manages to gain Mystic + Mage + Parry effectively and have full regens and stats - that would be OP I agree.
    • Dexxers have splintering, and dismount weapon specials. Both incredibly effective at slowing/stopping characters from running. It's all one way traffic. Mages have no dismount spells. {Maybe Mindblast - yes that completely unused spell, should have a chance to confuse, disorientate and dismount an opponent (if used on foot)...?}

    Deathstrike = an unmounted ninja skill, not a mounted dexxer skill. Especially not dexxers that have managed to fit it all into their template by dropping resist, and using trapped boxes to stay on the run and be pretty much unkillable.

    Flamestrike does zero damage almost. It's really hard in pvp even being able to cast higher circle spells, but when you do, and it doesn't even dent a dexxer… Then of course they just offscreen and come back full anyway. I think SDI needs to be increased. Maybe the nerf to fish-pies has fixed this, I've not actually pvp'd since the new patch so cannot comment.

    I'll be honest, I've gone off pvp. A lot of my perspective is now that of Ex Mage pvper, but I can still discuss what turned me off. Mainly it was the unstoppable dexxer horde, that had all the weaponised hybrids added to their ranks. It just all got so skill-less.

  • psychopsycho Posts: 183
    Im with cookie here on the suggestions.

    In addition I also suggest new items with higher Casting Focus.
    If you want to lower the max benefit of parry it should be done by having 125dex for max benefit.

    To compensate increase sdi, CF and kinetic eater caps, it will be harder to make a mage suit to fully benefit of parry as you also has to focus on the sdi, CF and kinetic eater.

    The sampiers will not get affected by this change as they already have the max dex.


    Thank you
    Together we make the game better!


  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    @Cookie thanks ;)

    Back to the others, I don't agree with changing anything with Parry at all with only one spell school.

    My simple Parry Mage
    Magery 
    Resist
    EI
    Med
    Wrestling 
    Parry 
    6 x 120, maybe over 720 but the + skills are not useful.

    Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

    But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
    I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

    This is a very poor proposal and does not solve any exploit, balance the playing field whatever. 

    Say what you can with your theory and maths that Parry is OP but this isn't happening out there in the fields.

    Archery used to be OP I think, that everyone can see  Say archery boshido mystic. This is an awfully powerful combo if can manage to squeeze in.

    Yes I said SQUEEZE. Everyone is squeezing up to 820 to 840 skills.

    And you are nerfing a newbie, puritan parry mage. btw this is one of the few pure mage options 

    Poison Mage
    Alchemy Mage
    Parry Mage
    Scribe Mage

    I didn't know a simple parry mage scares someone off, until now.



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  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    Regarding nerfing evasion in pvp, I do have an issue that need to note.

    Currently when doing champ spawn, my sampire would sometimes rely on evasion to escape from PK.

    Do what you need to nerf Evasion in PVP but please keep in mind not to let this affect PVM char. 

    I don't see why a pvm char should be made more vulnerable because of a higher pvp concern.

    Suggestion is evasion may be nerf if it goes with certain popular pvp template only. 


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  • PaithanPaithan Posts: 117
    Devs have a problem with only listening to the most vocal people on the boards who generally don't know what they are talking about when it comes to pvp.  You can tell this based on all of the parry "solutions" they came up with.

    I agree with you seth- if they go that route it certainly shouldn't just affect one template.  It's pretty crazy that chiv is still like that.  They should have just fixed chiv to begin with instead of letting dexers have the broken skill.
  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    @Paithan Yes, and the majority of the good pvp players are probably not even reading this or even if they do, be bothered by this. Who cares about nerfing a newbie pvp template.

    My 720 parry mage happen to be on Atlantic now.

    Latency is 230 minimum. If parry is so great, I will stand still at Fel Yew gate and spam Heal. There will soon see corpses around my OP Parry mage as the last man standing. Dream on, this isn't going to happen. 

    So many players just read updates, try to adapt and just fight.

    Until one day when they discover everything is nerf and nothing's useful anymore, then they will soon forget about the game and leave. 
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • Seth said:
    Who cares about nerfing a newbie pvp template.

    My 720 parry mage happen to be on Atlantic now.

    Latency is 230 minimum. If parry is so great, I will stand still at Fel Yew gate and spam Heal. There will soon see corpses around my OP Parry mage as the last man standing. Dream on, this isn't going to happen. 

      for Parry-mage being a "newbie template", looks like the vast majority are complete newbs anymore.

      230 latency huh?    with that kind of connection, it wouldn't matter what kind of template you used... you'd die to wrestling's auto-attacks while healing yourself with 4/6 chiv.   

    you still have Meditation on a 'parry-mage'.
    Refinements give you far more than what Meditation gives you, after all... Meditation can only be useful when people don't run from you.  it's the only time you could even benefit from Meditation anymore lol  otherwise you just regen whatever mana you lost while the other guy runs away.

     Hell, you probably don't even have the 80 dex requirement for parry to even be worth having.   
     Honestly, these are the only people that could even think that parry isn't broken A F.

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    edited December 2018
    @CovenantX ; I thought you wrote to nerf parry when it is specially paired with magery? 

    So my template is this, a pure Parry Mage.
    Magery, Med, EI, Resist, Wrestling, Parry.

    There is no Chivalry as you said Parry with Magery only, so its 2/6 max.

    You felt this is OP? Then prove it by showing how it can defeat every other template even those with 840 skills super hybrid.

    Not maths and theory but show in real pvp video. And for everyone East to West to see. Maybe we all missed an exploit or OP combo.
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 339
    edited December 2018
    Seth said:
    @ CovenantX  I thought you wrote to nerf parry when it is specially paired with magery? 

    So my template is this, a pure Parry Mage.
    Magery, Med, EI, Resist, Wrestling, Parry.

    There is no Chivalry as you said Parry with Magery only, so its 2/6 max.

    You felt this is OP? Then prove it by showing how it can defeat every other template even those with 840 skills super hybrid.

    Not maths and theory but show in real pvp video. And for everyone East to West to see. Maybe we all missed an exploit or OP combo.
     1)  Yes, Parry does need to be nerfed for Mages, and perhaps Chivarly with Parry+Bushido     
         (passive Parry chances need reduced ~15%)

     2) your template is outdated.  but you know what? it doesn't matter if it's against dexers any mage with parry should almost never lose to a dexer.   what are your stats on that char btw?

     3)  I said nothing about Chivalry & Magery together.   you misunderstood the context of my previous post referencing your "230 latency connection".
     
     4)  let me get this straight, you want me to play Your template, and prove it can beat any other template out there consistently?    It's been done by just about everyone actively pvping today already. they just don't want to admit it because they can't stand losing to a dexer lol, it's even worse then they need to be really bad in order for that to happen.

     5) No math or theories of what to change or how to change it?   
    Sure, let's just stick with the two garbage options that are proposed already then shall we?    better than leaving parry as is tbh.

     Oh hey guy, any idea why Chivalry is capped at 2/6 if Magery is part of the template?

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • SethSeth Posts: 778
    1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

    2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

    Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

    @Bleak you can close this thread now. 
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • ezikelezikel Posts: 78
    Paithan said:
    Devs have a problem with only listening to the most vocal people on the boards who generally don't know what they are talking about when it comes to pvp.  You can tell this based on all of the parry "solutions" they came up with.

    I agree with you seth- if they go that route it certainly shouldn't just affect one template.  It's pretty crazy that chiv is still like that.  They should have just fixed chiv to begin with instead of letting dexers have the broken skill.
    it is the sad truth and it is why we get uncomplete solution in the last pvp update.Seth said:
    @ Paithan Yes, and the majority of the good pvp players are probably not even reading this or even if they do, be bothered by this. Who cares about nerfing a newbie pvp template.

    My 720 parry mage happen to be on Atlantic now.

    Latency is 230 minimum. If parry is so great, I will stand still at Fel Yew gate and spam Heal. There will soon see corpses around my OP Parry mage as the last man standing. Dream on, this isn't going to happen. 

    So many players just read updates, try to adapt and just fight.

    Until one day when they discover everything is nerf and nothing's useful anymore, then they will soon forget about the game and leave. 

    pure parry mage get already nerf and it was a bad one.its only bandaids a part of a probleme and fix nothing.parry need to be remove from restriction list and lower the chance they cant parry be 5 10% for all template

  • ezikelezikel Posts: 78
    ezikel said:
    Paithan said:
    Devs have a problem with only listening to the most vocal people on the boards who generally don't know what they are talking about when it comes to pvp.  You can tell this based on all of the parry "solutions" they came up with.

    I agree with you seth- if they go that route it certainly shouldn't just affect one template.  It's pretty crazy that chiv is still like that.  They should have just fixed chiv to begin with instead of letting dexers have the broken skill.
    it is the sad truth and it is why we get uncomplete solution in the last pvp update.Seth said:
    @ Paithan Yes, and the majority of the good pvp players are probably not even reading this or even if they do, be bothered by this. Who cares about nerfing a newbie pvp template.

    My 720 parry mage happen to be on Atlantic now.

    Latency is 230 minimum. If parry is so great, I will stand still at Fel Yew gate and spam Heal. There will soon see corpses around my OP Parry mage as the last man standing. Dream on, this isn't going to happen. 

    So many players just read updates, try to adapt and just fight.

    Until one day when they discover everything is nerf and nothing's useful anymore, then they will soon forget about the game and leave. 


    pure parry mage get already nerf and it was a bad one.its only bandaids a part of a probleme and fix nothing.parry need to be remove from restriction list and lower the chance they cant parry be 5 10% for all template

  • cobbcobb Posts: 163
    edited December 2018
    I prefer the 3rd option where the characters with extra skill points are penalized.

    Also I think 15-25% reduction is way too much. There would be almost no reason to take parry with that kind of penalty. It should be more like a 5-10% reduction. 

    My suggestion would be to make the reduction be 10% of the extra skill points. So for someone with 100 extra skill points, they would suffer a 10% penalty. 50 extra skill points would give a 5% penalty.
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 339
    edited December 2018
    Seth said:
    1) No why should parry be nerfed for mages. 

    2) Template outdated? Excuse me, ain't you trying to nerf an outdated template then?

    Thanks for confirming, end of discussion.

    @ Bleak you can close this thread now. 

      1) Because Parry is broken when Mages use it against Dexers...  why else?

    no one cares about parry-mages vs <insert variant>-mages.   mages are the only ones that can kill something with Parry consistently..... because...spells?      Doesn't that explain why there are so many more parry/evade-mages than anything in UO?  

    Why do people refine fire resist to 75 when most dexers use cold or poison damage weapons & reducing DCI?    the obvious & logical answer is to provide more defense against mages.

      2) It's out-dated because of meditation = useless... Context, remember?  your template would be an easy win against any dexer ~90% of the time.  Against another mage it depends on your skill/timing interrupts vs theirs... A pvper would know that though.
    Seth said:
    Of all the most important thing in the world, you are going to nerf this template? Are you joking, is this template killing all the pvp in 1vs 1, arena and war all over the world. I must be a genius! But all my former pvp friends won't think so. None of them use this template. Given an experienced pvp, I can't kill them easily, tried and tested. Warrior mages chop him up in less than 1 min, seen that also many times.

    But it is effective and AFFORDABLE.
    I don't have to buy 100 million splintering or super duper antique jewel that cost more than a castle.

     by your own admission 'warrior mages' kill you in seconds.  I'm 100% sure it's because of their spell-play, because you have parry.  It's definitely not the weapon doing most of the damage.

      I'm just going out on a limb here and say it's safe to assume:

    1) You have less than 80 dex on your "Parry-Mage".   
    2) You aren't a pvper.
    3) Both 1 & 2, as it would explain exactly why you try and hold the position you do.

     Anyone that thinks Parry is fine is oblivious to the state of pvp right now.

     You can reforge/imbue an effective parry-mage suit... with or without meditation as part of your template.  a Parry-mage (using Parry Mastery) can use shield-bash as part of a combo effectively reaching 'weapon damage' levels... with wrestling.  Which is what 90%+ of all mages were before publish 96, Parry was broken then, it's broken now.  (of course they were mostly using higher-end suits than reforged+imbued, but beyond a certain point, it matters not).

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,384Moderator
    This thread is beginning to get personal. Please keep personalities out of it. Reasoned, well thought out suggestions, not trashing each others' game play and templates.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 643
    edited December 2018

    @CovenantX,

    Due to ultra high itemisation, consumables and a deliberate policy of making everything the same - Hybrids, getting rid of any template diversity (dressed up as creating template diversity, it's always the way), we have a situation for Pure Mages where;

    Meditation = not required due to huge int, and mana regens available.

    Resist Spells = not required due to orange petals, trapped boxes, and cleanse.

    Inscription = not required due to the SDI and Casting Focus it provides being nothing compared to itemisation.

    3 core skills, ie 340 skillpoints + say +100 from items = 440 redundant skillpoints on a Mage to allocate elsewhere.

    This is why Pure Mages are dead, a. half their skills are redundant, b. they cannot compete with everything everyone else is adding.

    Now what to add?

    Answer = Weapon + Tactics... due to there being so many overpowered weapon specials. {Also, Bushido, Mystic, Chiv, maybe Necro, due to great additional Defensive abilities, or even more Offensive}.

    Now if everyone is adding a weapon to their template, ie Dexxers and Hybrids, what is everyone going to need...?

    Yep, Parry. Parry is the solution to the broken Pure Mages, and the drive towards Hybrids, Dexxers, Weapon Users and making everything the same.

    It is Chicken and Egg - and the Chicken (Weapon usage) came first, not the Egg (Parry).

    Fixing Parry, which is in fact just the innocent bystander in all of this, does absolutely nothing to the overall problem.

This discussion has been closed.