August 2020 Newsletter : "we have some thoughts on the thief profession"....

poppspopps Posts: 1,683
edited August 28 in General Discussions
Considering how some thieves, be it using the burglar's bandana, the shadow dancers leggings, jewelry and what not, run around with only 60ish "real" stealing skills using then another 60 or so stealing points on items to get to 120, I hope that in those "thoughts" which you have on the thief profession, might be some love for those Thieves who actually invest 120 "real" points in stealing....

I am not against skill points on items, just would like to see more Rewards through gameplay for those players who actually do invest real skill points on their template rather then skill points on items....
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Comments

  • TchallaTchalla Posts: 21
    The use of equipment to boost skill happens with virtually every skill. It is not unique to stealing. I do not see any reason to single it out as a special skill that should be forced to be "real skill."
  • Easy, make a stealing mastery as they only care about real skill.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    Easy, make a stealing mastery as they only care about real skill.
    Eh, I tried last Year to bring that up..... 

    https://forum.uo.com/discussion/5069/rogues-skills-why-there-are-no-masteries-for-them
  • FortisFortis Posts: 189
    edited August 28
    Tchalla said:
    The use of equipment to boost skill happens with virtually every skill. It is not unique to stealing. I do not see any reason to single it out as a special skill that should be forced to be "real skill."

    completly wrong.... many skills need real skill for special move or full benifit for mastery use or special move

  • MissEMissE Posts: 718
    Every time this dev team has 'thoughts' on anything I shudder.  No doubt my thief will be nerfed as has my treasure hunter.  Well the hunter still works, just not the treasure part.

    Cheers MissE

    For more info about Angelwood Warehouse Events go to the A.W.E Forum
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    edited August 29
    A cool Mastery for Rogues, could be one called "Nimble Fingers" or something within that line and permit the stealing of items from players and NPCs while staying hidden, not being revealed by the steal, with increasing guarantee at that and decreasing cooldown to when this Mastery can be again reused depending on how many skill points would be used in : 

    - Stealing
    - Snooping
    - Hiding
    - Ninjitsu

    At 120 Stealing, 100 Snooping, 100 Hiding, 120 Ninjitsu ALL real skills (440 total skill points invested in the Rogue Template), the ability to steal while staying hidden from players or NPCs, without getting revealed by the steal, should be 100% guaranteed (it is a MASTERY !!) and the cooldown before it can be reused be a short one.

    Lower "real" skill points invested as compared to the max 440 skill points invested in all those 4 Rogue skills, should provide an increasing lower ability to stay hidden throughout the steal with a higher cooldown to reuse the Mastery.

    And before anyone says that a thief should always be attackable, 440 points invested in a Rogue make a thief practically a "no-match" to a character all skilled up and geared up to be a fighter.

    Not to mention, if the Rogue also runs with 100 Lockpicking, 100 Remove Trap to work on Dungeon Chests which would bring all skill points invested up to 640 skill points.

    There is hardly any room there for anything else.... infact, if the Rogue wanted to also run 100 Detect Hidden to reveal (for example hidden chests...), they could not fit that skill the Rogue template in full.... only 80 points could fit.....

    As if that was enough, a thief has to have both of the hands free of anything to be able to perform the steal thus further increasing the disadvantage as compared to a Fighting character.

    Therefore, a thief so heavily invested into Rogue skills would be an easy prey to any fighting character.

    The only real and truly valid defense of a thief, as I see it, is by getting in the shadow and staying there, well hidden....

    Furthermore, a Mastery is a Mastery and if it does not permit to a thief to get the job done with swiftness, success and reliability, what Mastery would it ever be ?
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 774
    My thief has Hiding, stealth, stealing, snooping, lockpick detect hidden and magery. She doesn't have ninjitsu and she doesn't have remove trap. She doesn't do pvp, although she has a couple of times joined VvV to steal sigils.
    Mostly I use her to steal in Exodus or from monsters, sometimes dungeon stealables. 
    Is she easy prey for fighting characters?  Of course she is - but the idea is to not get caught by them! Discretion is the key word for a thief.  For her most dangerous pvm steals in Exodus she gets next to her target, mounts her ethy, makes the steal and flees on the ethy.
  • jelinidasjelinidas Posts: 258
    How is your thief set up Popps?
  • TrismegistosTrismegistos Posts: 127
    What is the reason to punish skill wearing Chars. In that case the items loose their values. Nobody will buy them anymore.
    Why always people demand to make other people the life harder. I doesn't understand this.

    And please don't add items wich are useful which have a respawn timer. I am sure that every Spot on every shard is owned by a bot.
    We have this on some items with high cleanup points.

    Maybe good items to steal on monsters.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    edited August 29
    jelinidas said:
    How is your thief set up Popps?
    Stealing, Snooping, Hiding, Stealth, Ninjitsu, Lockpicking, Remove Trap, Detect Hidden (I have to take off and on Detect Hidden and Remove Trap or Ninjitsu, obviously, as 8 skills is too much beef to chew...).

    Pure Rogue. No fighting abilities, not as a choice, but there simply is no room for any if I want to play a full rounded Rogue (who can steal and do Dungeon Chests, including the hidden ones)... too many skills to have to take up.

    Cannot even recall unless using recall scrolls....
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    edited August 29
    What is the reason to punish skill wearing Chars. In that case the items loose their values. Nobody will buy them anymore.
    Why always people demand to make other people the life harder. I doesn't understand this.

    And please don't add items wich are useful which have a respawn timer. I am sure that every Spot on every shard is owned by a bot.
    We have this on some items with high cleanup points.

    Maybe good items to steal on monsters.
    Maybe I was not clear enough....

    I did NOT say to punish templates wearing skills on items, I said to PRIZE Templates investing "real" skill points in their Templates which, by the way, is what Masteries are ALL about, to my understanding...

    Players who want to use skill points on items can still do it, by all means, ONLY, they would not be able to gather the benefits of using instead REAL skill points.....

    It is a different approach which does NOT penalize those who want to use skill items on their template but, in doing so, need to understand that they will NOT be able to exploit the full potential of that given skill.
  • SethSeth Posts: 619

    Why always people demand to make other people the life harder. I doesn't understand this.


    This^^^
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 402
    sulky bard with 460 skill points invested frowns at whiny thieves. the time effort and money involved in getting all the stealth items( i only need 50 real skill points to be 120) should not be punished by some weird purist group who feel like they deserve something... 
  • MargeMarge Posts: 317
    popps said:

    Maybe I was not clear enough....

    I did NOT say to punish templates wearing skills on items, I said to PRIZE Templates investing "real" skill points in their Templates which, by the way, is what Masteries are ALL about, to my understanding...

    Players who want to use skill points on items can still do it, by all means, ONLY, they would not be able to gather the benefits of using instead REAL skill points.....

    It is a different approach which does NOT penalize those who want to use skill items on their template but, in doing so, need to understand that they will NOT be able to exploit the full potential of that given skill.

    You are not clear enough or maybe I'm still half asleep.But isn't your idea the very definition of punishing someone for not having 120 real skill? Not being able to use the skill fully if not 120 is a type  of punishment.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    edited August 29
    McDougle said:
    sulky bard with 460 skill points invested frowns at whiny thieves. the time effort and money involved in getting all the stealth items( i only need 50 real skill points to be 120) should not be punished by some weird purist group who feel like they deserve something... 
    Prizing players who invest in "real" skill is NOT punishing those who instead use skill items.

    It is some "more" given to those who make the choice to loose the advantage of being able to use on their Template multiple skills and thus multiple advantages coming from those skills in exchange for better and more enhanced bonuses but coming from less skills.

    It is a choice that any and all players can make.

    Want to benefit the fullest from a given skill or skill set (for example for a Rogue) ?

    Renounce the appeal of having 8+ skills on a Template, stick with 6 thus renouncing to the advantages that would come from those extra skills one could have from skill items BUT, be able to enjoy the higher benefits that those less skills can provide when trained up to their fullest 120 "real" skill.

    And it is funny that you mention the Bardic skills, because, to my understanding, having 120 in multiple Bard skills DOES provide additional bonuses to the Bard for whatever Bard skill they might be using in their Mastery....

    Why shouldn't this be then the same for a Rogue using a whole bunch of "real" Rogue skill points on their Template rather then on items ?
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 402
    if you want real skill have at it ! you are right UO is UO because of the many choices don't try to impose  your choices on others. using skill equipment is using the game mechanics which i might add are and have been working as intended for decades.. 
  • I remember a long time ago on a different iteration of Stratics one of the dev team members posted in the thief forum, asking for suggestions from thieves about how to improve the skill.  The catch was they couldn't involve using the skill the do stuff to other players, mess with insurance in some way, etc.  (I forget the exact words.)

    What immediately followed was a series of suggestions all of which did exactly what the dev said not to do.

    My feeling is that most players imagine "thief improvement" to be something along the lines of making a D&D-type thief ("Rogue" in 5th edition parlance) -- basically a light warrior class with certain extra abilities that involve chests, sneaking, hidden items, dashing and daring exploits, etc.  A means to play a Han Solo to someone else's Luke Skywaler (Paladin/Samurai).  (Templates in UO are too crowded to do this with any degree of viability.)

    But, that most posters on the topic are thinking in terms of PvP or other methods of "getting stuff from another player" or something similar.

    Which one the current team is thinking of remains to be seen but I often fret that they'll over-value opinion intensity in assessing their customers' wishes and needs.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    McDougle said:
    if you want real skill have at it ! you are right UO is UO because of the many choices don't try to impose  your choices on others. using skill equipment is using the game mechanics which i might add are and have been working as intended for decades.. 
    Hmmm... so WHY Skills Masteries where created which rely on "real" skill points in order to provide a benefit ?

    Did Skill Masteries kill players using items with skills on ?

    Not to my knowledge.

    Want to play with some 10 skills and enjoy the multiple "lower" benefits coming from so many skills?

    Fine, but then leave to other players who instead want to play with less skills but trained to the fullest 120 "real" points the higher benefits coming from "specializing" in less skills but at a higher real value.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 402
    you don't get it pop you get benefit from not using skill gain equipment i am tei\\ied to my suit you can walk around naked and have 120 stealth you can have 100 lrc 40 lmc and plus ten stamina or mana on every piece whatever you decide....lets say you are right do tamers get a boost from being 360 real skills?? how about the Sampire that invest 120 in necro double leech for him ?? you are asking to fix something that is not broken to suit some whim of your own  
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,037
    edited August 30
    I'm glad I don't play any games that popps creates.

    Imo thieves do what they do just fine. Never had one, have many stolen items thanks to players that understand game mechanics. Ok I have skills, just don't like that part of uo.

    I would add new items for them to steal in September and with each new treasures of..event.

    *edited Rorschach
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,037
    As far as 6 attempts to get a static item in a static area. That's fine. Done hundreds of peerless with no reward. UO ring.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 593
    edited August 29

    I am going to completely disagree with the original opening post. Below is my rogue, which is a pure non combat rogue. In order to fit in all of the very cool Rogue skills, I have used +Skill items to the maximum. I also have absolutely zero combat ability.

    A Rogue should not be penalised for using +Skill items, in fact, I think you will find no other profession has as many +Skill items, because no other profession needs them. You actually need the items, to pull off a complete Rogue - as seen below. Remember - by putting on all these +Skill Items, I have had to sacrifice other game benefits - such as any Combat ability at all, I cannot fight anything, player, or monster.

    You will see below, I only have 30 Stealth skill, yet items take it to 120. I have 60 Stealing skill, yet items take it to 120.

    This rogue is so much fun, it is completely non-combat which I think should also count for something, he lives by his wits. I actually think this style of rogue should be given more clever and interesting content, and boosted.

    The One weakness of this rogue currently, is he does not have 90 Real Stealing Skill, to join the Thieves guild, in order to steal off Players in Felucca. I am hoping if I stone something off, raise Stealing to 90, join the Thieves guild, then put back stones skill and drop Stealing back to 60, I can get around that.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,037
    My guess is a certain poster does not want to get the skill items for rogues so he is just looking for an easy button.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    edited August 30
    McDougle said:
    you don't get it pop you get benefit from not using skill gain equipment i am tei\\ied to my suit you can walk around naked and have 120 stealth you can have 100 lrc 40 lmc and plus ten stamina or mana on every piece whatever you decide....lets say you are right do tamers get a boost from being 360 real skills?? how about the Sampire that invest 120 in necro double leech for him ?? you are asking to fix something that is not broken to suit some whim of your own  
    Wanna compare with being able to take advantages from some 8, 9 or 10 skills ?

    There is just NOT a match.... infact, lots of players then boost their Templates with skill items so as to be able to take advantage from way more then just a mere 6 skills....

    Would they do it unless they did not have a hell of an advantage from being able to use the benefits from so many different skills ?

    Nope.

    I am sorry, but what needs some SERIOUS love here are the "pure" Templates which only rely on 6 skills but trained to the fullest.

    Please, do not come to me trying to convince people about the players being able to use advantages and benefits from some 8, 9 or perhaps even 10 skills as being the underdog in UO because they are NOT.

    At least, that is how I see it.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    edited August 30
    Pawain said:
    I'm glad I don't play any games that popps creates.

    Imo thieves do what they do just fine. Never had one, have many stolen items thanks to players that understand game mechanics. Ok I have skills, just don't like that part of uo.

    I would add new items for them to steal in September and with each new treasures of..event.
    I would add new items for them to steal in September and with each new treasures of..event.
    Serious ?

    The Rogue Profession in Ultima Online being relegated to mostly only steal some useless deco pixels from some place and, this, assuming that the Rogue is able to beat a scripter logged off there which is basically impossible for a Rogue that did not use scripts (see the House placing after IDOCs drama....) ?

    No thanks.

    I sure hope that the Developers within their "thoughts on thieves" have MUCH BETTER ideas then that for this Profession in Ultima Online....

  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    Cookie said:

    I am going to completely disagree with the original opening post. Below is my rogue, which is a pure non combat rogue. In order to fit in all of the very cool Rogue skills, I have used +Skill items to the maximum. I also have absolutely zero combat ability.

    A Rogue should not be penalised for using +Skill items, in fact, I think you will find no other profession has as many +Skill items, because no other profession needs them. You actually need the items, to pull off a complete Rogue - as seen below. Remember - by putting on all these +Skill Items, I have had to sacrifice other game benefits - such as any Combat ability at all, I cannot fight anything, player, or monster.

    You will see below, I only have 30 Stealth skill, yet items take it to 120. I have 60 Stealing skill, yet items take it to 120.

    This rogue is so much fun, it is completely non-combat which I think should also count for something, he lives by his wits. I actually think this style of rogue should be given more clever and interesting content, and boosted.

    The One weakness of this rogue currently, is he does not have 90 Real Stealing Skill, to join the Thieves guild, in order to steal off Players in Felucca. I am hoping if I stone something off, raise Stealing to 90, join the Thieves guild, then put back stones skill and drop Stealing back to 60, I can get around that.

    You realize that you are talking about using EIGHT skills to their fullest and 66 Magery with a total of 926 skill points when the CAP is 720 (206 skill points over the CAP !), right ?

    And then I am wrong when I am saying that players who, instead, stick with only play 6 skills but all trained REAL skill points should not get some SERIOUS love from the Developers ?

    Yeah, right....

    As I said, I am NOT against Templates using items with skill points and going well above the 720 CAP, they like it, they go for it.....

    I am only saying that players who, instead, want to stick to actually using TRAINED UP skills (skill items have the added benefit that they do NOT require investment into training them, they are a get go thing.... training skills takes time....) to their fullest and stay within the 720 CAP, should not be penalized by this, but be PRIZED.

    It is a matter of Balance.

    Players using well over 6 skills and hundreds of points well over the 720 skill CAP get the benefit from all of those skills' advantages and pluses, for balance sakes then, players who, instead, STICK with the 6 x 120 Templates but with all skills TRAINED (not easily beefed up by items...) to their fullest should get ADVANTAGES unique to them that can compensate the lack of being able to benefit from using 8 or 9 or perhaps even 10 skillsat once on their Template....

    That is at least the way I see it.
  • TrismegistosTrismegistos Posts: 127
    Sorry I doesn't see any über item in the skillset of popps. Only the royal guard Investor is really expensive.
    So there is no disbalance if you play with 100 stealth.
    Everyone could use this setting.
    Imagine that work your skill up once is as hard as getting the arties involved in this template. So both playstyles invests work to fulfill their template. Why one of them should be able to get better items than the other?
     
    I think the dices for changes have already be thrown. I would say wait and C.

  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 402
    you do realize that you have posted multiple times about how hard and terrible it is to get 120 PS and that some imaginary force controls the market yet now you want to basically force people to get 120 PS...
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,683
    edited August 30
    McDougle said:
    you do realize that you have posted multiple times about how hard and terrible it is to get 120 PS and that some imaginary force controls the market yet now you want to basically force people to get 120 PS...
    Uhu ?

    Using skill items does not involve needing ANYWAYS 120 Powerscrolls in order to then take advantage of those skill points on items ?

    That is news to me....
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