August 2020 Newsletter : "we have some thoughts on the thief profession"....

2

Comments

  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    And, by the way, if the Developers want to give some love to Thieves they could also significantly "UP" the rate of stealing Exodus Keys from the Exodus Zealots which is, currently, and even when wearing Luck on the suit, so ridicolously low as compared to just killing creatures in the Exodus Dungeon to get the keys that hardly anyone bothers gathering them through stealing...

    If one is Lucky in 1 hour of stealing they "may" get 1 key, perhaps 2, while through killing creatures in the Dungeon in that same time, one can get, easily, even 10 keys depending how fast they are with their killing....

    Of course that thieves are hardly used....

    Not to mention, that it is beyond my comprehension the "why" Thieves having Ninjitsu, supposedly a skill that is very complementary to a Rogue, cannot "smoke a bomb" right after a steal.... they get the message that they have to wait the downtime to use another skill after the stealing skill....

    YET, any fighter who has ninjitsu can instead perfectly and smoothly smoke a bomb while they are using their fighting skill....

    Why the double standard, @Kyronix and @Bleak ?

    Stealing is just the same a skill as Swordsmanship, Macing, Fencing, Archery or Throwing are.

    YET, those skills can smoke a bomb without a problem while in the middle of using their fighting skill but a Thief cannot and is practically mandated to use the Magery invisibility spell after doing a steal with all that this means in terms of a delay before they can hide as well as in terms of additional skill points that they have to put on their Template ?
  • dvviddvvid Posts: 199
    ...smoke a bomb?
  • dvviddvvid Posts: 199
    Stealing is not the same as weapon skills. That’s an odd assertion. Regardless, I do agree that thieves should be able to use a smoke bomb after a theft. Whether that is overpowered, I’m not sure. 
  • DinoDino Posts: 18
    edited September 13
    I use my Thieve often to gather keys in Exodus Dungeon. I use stealing on the Zealots and look for chests too. It is no problem to get much more keys than 1 per hour. Other templates may be faster, but with the additional stuff i am satisfied with my thieve. These days peerless regs are not so important than years ago, but the imbuing essences are much faster to get here than elsewhere. And i have fun doing that!
    I have enough magery to cast invis in my template. Using smoke bombs after stealing would be nice, but not really important for me.

  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 13
    dvvid said:
    Stealing is not the same as weapon skills. That’s an odd assertion. Regardless, I do agree that thieves should be able to use a smoke bomb after a theft. Whether that is overpowered, I’m not sure. 
    Stealing is not the same as weapon skills.
    Stealing is a skill just like weapons skills are. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If anyone using a weapon skill can, right away, fire up a smoke bomb, I do not see why after stealing or whatever other skill been used, it would not be possible to, likewise, fire up a smoke bomb.

    To my opinion, double standards have been applied, and this should not be.

    Especially, since Ninjitsu is often voiced up as a "perfect" complementary skill to a Rogue.... complementary "how" if then the stealing skill is not even considered "on par" to a weapons skill as in regards to being able to firing up a smoke bomb ?

  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 13
    Dino said:
    I use my Thieve often to gather keys in Exodus Dungeon. I use stealing on the Zealots and look for chests too. It is no problem to get much more keys than 1 per hour. Other templates may be faster, but with the additional stuff i am satisfied with my thieve. These days peerless regs are not so important than years ago, but the imbuing essences are much faster to get here than elsewhere. And i have fun doing that!
    I have enough magery to cast invis in my template. Using smoke bombs after stealing would be nice, but not really important for me.

    That is not the point.

    The different ways of gathering the keys should be seen at separatedly, to my opinion, and balanced with one another.

    That is, in X time of stealing from Exodus Zealots OR (as an alternate method) from looting hidden chests OR (as yet another alternate method) from killing creatures in the Exodus Dungeon, one should come up, "more less", with the same number of keys gathered...

    Currently, it is not so.

    By far, and I mean BY FAR, stealing from the Exodus Zealots yields the lowest, but really THE lowest number of keys gathered to the point that it makes it totally inefficient and a waste of time as compared to just go there and kill anything that moves to gather the keys.

    Personally, I think this is dead wrong and unbalanced ESPECIALLY, if the Developers do want thieving to be used in the game....

    Why would a player want to waste their time to get 1 key an hour from stealing if they can get about 10 in that same hour from killing ?

    I think some number of the chances to get a key from stealing from the Exodus Zealots should be adjusted, making this chance significantly higher as to what it is now.
  • ChrilleChrille Posts: 104
    Poops have you ever heard of stealing from other players? If you could insta hide after a steal there isnt anything stopping a skilled thief from taking all powerscrolls at a champspawn without any danger at all just steal and use a smokebomb. The smokebomb timer is needed to balance the game when stealing items.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 13
    Chrille said:
    Poops have you ever heard of stealing from other players? If you could insta hide after a steal there isnt anything stopping a skilled thief from taking all powerscrolls at a champspawn without any danger at all just steal and use a smokebomb. The smokebomb timer is needed to balance the game when stealing items.
    Uhu ?

    Have you ever heard of a skill called "Detect Hidden" or using area damage skills, potions and what not to reveal hidden players ?

    That is called BALANCE.

    You see, those fighting have, aheam, FIGHTING fine tuned on their character while thieves, have their Template all jammed with NON fighting skills....

    Their ONLY defense is staying hidden.

    With 120 Stealing, 100 Snooping, 100 Hiding, 120 Ninjitsu, 100 Lockpicking and possibly also 100 Detect Hidden and 100 Remove Trap (740 skill points, requiring 20 on jewels and no room for magery even....) there is simply no way that a Rogue can be any match in a fight with characters who, on the other hand, have gear and skills all fine tuned to fight.

    So a good Thief gets a scroll and stealths away ?

    So what ?

    THAT is their way to make a living in UO and carry on that particular gameplay..... take away their only one defense, to hide AND to stay hidden, and they are good for nothing, just an easy target to blast away....

    And if a Thief, while other Templates invest in fighting skills and gear, HEAVILY invests in skill points and gear directed at staying hidden and stealthing, well, they SHOULD be able to stay hidden and stealth no matter what!!

    Can a fighter who invested heavily in gear and skill go kill SOLO the toughest bosses in the game ?

    Sure they can, as we all well know.

    Well, THEN, why shouldn't then a Rogue Template who invested heavily in skills to get into hiding and stealthing be able to STAY hidden and do their business STAYING hidden and stealthed and, thus, be succesful THEIR playing style just like the fighters can be succesful with THEIR playing style ?

    We want fighting character who "perfect" their Template to be able to go SOLO end game Bosses but then, we do "not" want to have Rogue templates who perfect "their" Template to, likewise, be able to carry out their profession and their steals ?

    Again, double standards here ?

    Ultima Online has become way, but WAY too much fighting oriented and focued.... all revolves around fighting, fighting and some more fighting....

    And who cares about playing styles "other" then fighting ones.... like crafting which is dead, Rogues who are pretty much dead, gathering resources which are also dead because of scripting them first not having been stopped successfully (it was tried with the random resources but, apparently, did not work...), and then from High Seas and ship combat (much more efficient to go hunt Pirate and Merchant Ships to gather resources rather then using mining and lumberjacking...) and so on.

    When Ultima Online started it was not like this. All skills mattered but now, instead, little by little, Developers' Team after Developers' Team they have brought the focus more and more onto fighting neglecting and letting to die all the non combat playing styles....

    Others, only interested in fighting may like this status of things but I don't. I think that non combat playing styles should be deemed AS important as combat playing styles and, thus, receive the same attention and love from the Developers as fighting does.

    I am sorry, but IF a Rogue character is wanted to be played in the World of Ultima Online, THEN it is also necessary to give that particular playing style the "tools" to carry on their Profession in UO and, to my opinion, not permitting to fire up a smoke bomb after a steal like a fighting character can while fighting, is NOT right, it is simply a double standard because stealing DOES IS a skill just like Weapons skills are and, thus, it should be permitted after a steal to fire up a smoke bomb right away.

    It is no surprise to me that a Rogue character is hardly played in Ultima Online under these conditions....

    I just brought the matter up because the thread is about bringing some love to Thieves according to the latest August 2020 Newletter..... I guess that time will tell how (and if) the Developers "really" think they want to help out a Rogue in UO in the upcoming future....
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 13
    Chrille said:
    Poops have you ever heard of stealing from other players? If you could insta hide after a steal there isnt anything stopping a skilled thief from taking all powerscrolls at a champspawn without any danger at all just steal and use a smokebomb. The smokebomb timer is needed to balance the game when stealing items.
    Not to mention, that it is already plenty difficulty and requiring real skills for a Thief to "dodge" players at champion spawns who move, fast and all over the place, usually, without being "walked over" with the result that they get the message that they are "shoving something invisible" and, thus, get alerted right away....

    Maybe not all people know, but it is necessary to stay next to another Template in order to be able to perform a steal and this is quite a difficult thing to do with targets always on the move without being "shoved over" which would consequentially alert the target....

    So, by no means permitting also to the stealing skill to fire off a smoke bomb like weapons skills already do, thus without a timer also for the stealing skill, would be inbalancing, to my opinion.

    The thief is a much weaker Template as compared to a Template fit for fighting, and his/her only defense IS staying hidden and stealthing, as I see it.

    The difficulty, tomy viewing, is for the thief in positioning him/herself right next to the Target and stealing without alerting the target from the message of being "shoved over" by the target always being on the move.

    Preventing stealing from being able to fire up a smoke bomb without the timer, just like weapons skills can do, is just unnecessary and  double standard, to my viewing, making the Rogue character even less likely to be played.

    You want another ?

    @Bleak , ain't this a bug with the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery ?

    The Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery clearly state :

    Shadow Mastery https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/skill-masteries/
    Shadow
    Makes the ninja more difficult to become unhidden from taking damage and being revealed based on ninjitsu skill, stealth skill, and mastery level. Upkeep costs 10 mana and duration is determined by ninjitsu and stealth skill
    well, that is NOT so, I found out, at least for a Rogue working Dungeon Chests....

    A character with Ninjitsu Mastery 3 and, on top of all that, is also an Elf which, as a Race, should be harder to be detected/revealed with all REAL related skills being

    100 Hiding
    120 Stealthing
    120 Ninjitsu

    A suit that is all 70s and 75 in Energy (Elves bonus).

    EVEN when he/she casts the Shadow Mastery for Ninjitsu and, mind you, is in Rat form which, supposedly, should provide an additional +20 Stealthing on top of the 120 he/she already has, when opening a dungeon chest after picking the lock, inevitably, ALL THE TIME, gets dragged out of hiding, either by the blast or by the poison.

    The poison, mind you, is even worse because, if the Rogue gets back into hiding after the 1st reveal from being poisoned, he/she gets revealed over and over and over again by the poison....

    Uhu ?

    Having invested so massively into staying hidden, that Rogue should STAY hidden, right ?

    Again, Rogues do NOT have much room for real combat skills so, their only defense IS pretty much the staying hidden and stealthing and NOT getting revealed....

    I mean, Elf bonus to not get revealed, 120 "real" skill points stealth bonus to sustain additional damage and, on top of that, even in Rat form which, "supposedly" should give another +20 Stealth thus bringing the Rogue to 140 Stealth, on top of all that ALSO the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery up and runnning with yet ANOTHER 120 REAL Ninjitsu skill points invested into, to further be able to sustain additional damage, and yet Dungeon Chests' Traps get the Rogue revealed all the time ?

    Hello ???

    This is just dead wrong and, honestly, I do hope that it is a BUG in the functioning of the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery and not intended to further make the rogue template unplayable and unappealing....

    By the way, if anyone was wondering, in regards to curing the poison, using Greater Cure potions or spells reveals anyways the Rogue thus defeating the point of having the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery in the first place, not to mention the 120 REAL skill points invested into the Ninjitsu skill....

    Again, I am talking of a NON combat Template, a Rogue that is NOT a fighting Template, that has no combat skills and should ONLY rely (reliably, that is....) on Hiding AND staying hidden and stealthed when he/she carries out his/her profession and abilities, at least, when having invested so much and so heavily in Rogue related skills like Hiding, Stealing, Snooping, Stealth, Ninjitsu, Lockpicking, Detect Hidden, even possibly Remove Trap...

    The way it should play out, is a character who, when he/she "perfected" his/her Rogue related skills, should be able to go into Hiding and Stealthing, open the Chests, either removes the Trap while staying hidden OR is able to sustain the damage from the Trap by running the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery (especially if having invested 120 REAL Ninjitsu skill points in it...) takes the loot, and walks out stealthing.... no fights for lack of skill points in fighting skills, no getting revealed when having perfected the skills and having heavily invested in related real skill points.....

    @Bleak and @Kyronix , is that a BUG which does not make the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery work "as described" (the description clearly states "Makes the ninja more difficult to become unhidden from taking damage and being revealed"), especially when one has invested 120 REAL Ninjitsu skill points in it, because the Dungeon Chests' Traps reveal the Rogue character all the time (whether from an explosion or poison), thus making it pointless to invest 120 Ninjitsu skill points and of running the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery in this regard ?


  • I do the same as @Dino I have magery rather than ninjitsu on my thief. I find I can work very efficiently in Exodus that way, and I can use Earth elementals for running interference when I steal from monsters for balms and lotions. 
    The description for the mastery says 'more difficult to become unhidden'. It doesn't say 'will not become unhidden'. I would guess it depends on how much damage the character is taking.

    If you want to see how to successfully work Exodus as I, Dino, and probably many others do, try watching my youtube videos. 
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited September 13
    The shadow mastery is working correctly, there is a significantly reduced chance of being revealed when taking damage.

    There is a significant backlog in bugs at the moment, please refrain from sending the devs on unnecessary investigations.

    If you feel the mastery is not working as intended. I suggest the following experiment:
    walk over a trap 100 times without mastery and document the number of times revealed. Walk over a trap 100 times with shadow mastery on and document the number of times revealed.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    I do the same as @ Dino I have magery rather than ninjitsu on my thief. I find I can work very efficiently in Exodus that way, and I can use Earth elementals for running interference when I steal from monsters for balms and lotions. 
    The description for the mastery says 'more difficult to become unhidden'. It doesn't say 'will not become unhidden'. I would guess it depends on how much damage the character is taking.

    If you want to see how to successfully work Exodus as I, Dino, and probably many others do, try watching my youtube videos. 
    The description for the mastery says 'more difficult to become unhidden'. It doesn't say 'will not become unhidden'. I would guess it depends on how much damage the character is taking.
    Unfortunately, with "as good as it can get"... that is (all REAL skills, mind you), 120 Stealth, 100 Hiding, 120 Ninjitsu and Mastery 3 of Ninjitsu, and on an ELF character, mind you, who should have a Race bonus to be harder to get revealed, STILL, Dungeon Chests' Traps, whether explosions or poison reveal e-v-e-r-y  s-i-n-g-l-e time the Rogue.....

    Basically, the Shadow Mastery does NOT work, period, for dungeon Chests' traps' damage....

    To my viewing, if one invests so heavily into something, that something had got to work, reliably and if not 100% at least 99.9% of the times.

    And, frankly, I see investing 340 skill points, all real, into Stealthing, Hiding and Ninjitsu as heavily investing....

    That should be the somewhat guaranteed condition, or very much close to it (99.9%) especially if the character using those skills and that Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery was to be an Elf, for not getting revealed.

    It is ridicolous that, with that settings, Dungeon Chests' traps reveal the character every single time with their damage and, if it is poison, it reveals multiple times even, until the poison is cured which, by the way, ALSO reveals the character whether using a potion or a spell to cure the potion...

    I will repeat it once again since it seems not to get through well enough, a Rogue character is NOT a fighting template, it is NOT.

    There is no way, with the load of Rogue skills that it needs to carry, that it can be of any match to characters fit and skilled for fighting nor to many Monsters.

    No room for resisting spells, no decent combat skills, to steal the character has to be empty handed etc. etc.

    The Rogue one and only way to defend is through Hiding and Stealthing, IMHO.

    Hence, hiding and stealthing should work damn well for a Rogue, which it means, not getting revealed, no matter what, MOST OF THE TIME, perhaps even 100% of the times if that Rogue invests REAL skill points in any of the pertaining skills of that particular gameplay AND invests in a Mastery like the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery....

  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 13
    Mervyn said:
    The shadow mastery is working correctly, there is a significantly reduced chance of being revealed when taking damage.

    There is a significant backlog in bugs at the moment, please refrain from sending the devs on unnecessary investigations.

    If you feel the mastery is not working as intended. I suggest the following experiment:
    walk over a trap 100 times without mastery and document the number of times revealed. Walk over a trap 100 times with shadow mastery on and document the number of times revealed.
    Maybe I was not clear enough.

    ELF character which, because of the Racial bonus should "naturally" be harder to get revealed.

    - 120 Stealth all real skill points.
    - 100 Hiding
    - 120 Ninjitsu all real skill points.
    - Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery up and running.

    Dungeon Traps' damage reveal the Rogue with such a setting EVERY SINGLE attempt to open the Chest, thus triggering the Trap after picking the Lock.

    Every single attempt.

    With Explosion of course it is once, at the trap going off, with poison it keeps revealing the Rogue until the poison gets healed which, by the way, ALSO reveals the character whether one uses a potion of a spell....

    So, if the Rogue with 120 Stealth, 100 Hiding, 120 Ninjitsu AND the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery up and running is hidden, picks the lock and proceeds to open the Chest, the traps goes off and the character GETS revealed. All the times.

    If the trap was poison, and the Rogue hides back without curing the poison, the poison WILL reveal again that character, and this over and over if the Rogue goes back into hiding without curing the poison.... this, WITH the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery up and running.

    I am sorry, but this to me can only say 1 thing which it is, that, at least as in regards to damage from Dungeon Chests' Traps the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery DOES IS bugged and a whole lot to.

    With the setting as good as it can get, which it is ELF character (racial bonus to not get revealed), 120 Stealth, 100 Hiding, 120 Ninjitsu and Nijitsu Shadow Mastery up and running the Rogue should be able to trigger Dungeon Chests' Traps all the time or at the very least 99.9% of the times without getting revealed.

    Instead, the Rogue, with that maxed out setting, gets revealed EVERY SINGLE time that the Dungeon Chest's trap goes off. Multiple times if that trap was poison, until the poison is cured (which, by the way, whether the curing comes from a potion or a spell ALSO reveals the Rogue....a NON fighting Template who can only rely on hiding and stealthing for his/her safety...).

    To my impression, the protection from the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery to get NOT revealed from taking damage, simply, in the case of damage coming from Dungeon Chests' traps, DOES NOT KICK IN. Period.

    If this is not a bug, I do not know which it is....

    Let me remind what the description for that particular Mastery reads....

    Shadow Mastery https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/skill-masteries/
    Shadow
    Makes the ninja more difficult to become unhidden from taking damage and being revealed based on ninjitsu skill, stealth skill, and mastery level. Upkeep costs 10 mana and duration is determined by ninjitsu and stealth skill
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,320Moderator
    1. How much damage, in figures, does the chest trap do? Mervyn has proven that the mastery works to prevent floor traps from revealing. Chest traps, however, do significantly more damage. @Mervyn do you know if the mastery works to avoid reveals in pvp from area effect spells like earthquake, wild fire etc?
    2. Are you sure that rat form stacks with 120 stealth to give the equivelant of 140 skill?
    3. Why not use orange petals to cure the poison and avoid the repeated reveals?
    4. I believe your expectation that a thief will never be revealed no matter how severe the damage he receives to be unrealistic.
    I am unable to conduct any testing mysel; while I can set ninjitsu skill on test center, I do not have the required mastery primer.
  • DryzzidDryzzid Posts: 45
    Okay so they put a mastery in, I raise my real stealing skill high enough to use it, drop some magery and add +magery to my jewels, and now I have a 900 skill point champ thief with some cool new mastery bonus at my disposal.

    I support this.
    Governor of Vesper and Mayor of North Harbor Township, Atlantic Shard
    Assistant Curator of the Atlantic Repertory, Atlantic's largest housing of player written fiction and historical artifacts!
  • quickbladequickblade Posts: 134
    edited September 13
    There is already a benefit of having real stealign skill vs non real with items. If you try to steal refinements in a fel shop while having 60 stealing (+60 from items) , you will get guards wack maybe 50% of the time , depending on how close the npcs are. If you have 120 real stealing , you almost guaranteed to not get guards wacked, I mean other than that maybe if they add a mastery which would need to require real skill to get the full effects, I dont see anything else  here.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited September 13
    I know it absolutely works against player area effects, (wildfire does not damage hidden targets anyway) 

    However popps seems to be correct, i was only able to shadow through the poison dart damage on dungeon chests, the small 3-12 damage explosion seems to reveal everytime.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 13
    Mervyn said:
    I know it absolutely works against player area effects, (wildfire does not damage hidden targets anyway) 

    However popps seems to be correct, i was only able to shadow through the poison dart damage on dungeon chests, the small 3-12 damage explosion seems to reveal everytime.
    <span>:wink:</span>

    Also the poison reveals, just give it time (few secs), and it will reveal you....

    Hope this BUG gets fixed not too late....

    Please @Bleak and @Kyronix ?
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    This may be working as intended.

    As the remove trap skill has always revealed the player.

    and by setting off the trap, you're removing it too.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • Popps

    Do you actually play this game? you seem to spend ALL your time on here on ALL subjects. You must have many accts as you seem to have, and are an expert on ALL templates.

    Or you just want to nerf everything, maybe you should actually spend time playing the game and learning and not trying to change everything


    At least thats as I see it


  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 13
    Mervyn said:
    This may be working as intended.

    As the remove trap skill has always revealed the player.

    and by setting off the trap, you're removing it too.
    Hell no... not if one has invested skill points, and real ones, into Ninjitsu and is running the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery....

    And I will say it once more, we are talking about a Rogue which is a non-fighting Template by trade, considering all of the non combat Rogue skills that he has to have on the Template.

    Sure, a Rogue "can" have some combat ability (giving up some of their Rogue skills, of course), but nothing comparable and possible to be a match to a focused fighting Template with all skills and gear fine tuned for combat.

    Hence my point, that the one defense for a Rogue is to get into Hiding and STAY into Hiding.

    If a Rogue was to invest so heavily into Hiding and Stealth related skills and to run the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery at full 120 real skill throttle, it should NOT get them revealed, at least a good 99.9% of the time, when a Dungeon's Chest trap goes off.

    Especially, not when ALSO running 120 stealth, all real skillpoints, 100 Hiding and being an Elf.

    Also, being in rat form when already having 120 Stealthing skill points, real, should by all means provide the bonus to further reduce the chance (likely void it, at this point, for having 140 Stealthing AND 120 Ninjitsu, AND running the Shadow Mastery, AND being an ELF...) to get revealed by Dungeon's Chests' traps going off.

    So, I do need to conclude that, if a Rogue with such a maxed out setting still gets revealed each and every time a Dungeon Chest trap for off, this indicates a BUG in the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery at least in regards to Chests' Traps damage.

    The description of that Mastery is clear to me

    Shadow Mastery https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/skill-masteries/
    Shadow
    Makes the ninja more difficult to become unhidden from taking damage and being revealed based on ninjitsu skill, stealth skill, and mastery level. Upkeep costs 10 mana and duration is determined by ninjitsu and stealth skill
    This is NOT what is happening at all with the damage from Chests' traps.

    I think this should be rectified and make the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery (as well as from having 120 stealth + additional 20 Stealth from being in Rat form + the racial bonus from being an ELF) ALSO work towards the damage coming from Chests' traps to NOT reveal the Rogue from the damage resulting from having triggered that trap.

  • Someone complaineth much and oft. The stench of bitterness and jealousy - a perceived sense of being wronged- for fear that others might have fun in a manner not his own... or heaven forbid,  would seem to have more of anything... a puritan perhaps?  Un-believable!
    Help me decide, am I felling sickened, or about to ROFL?
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 14

    Archangel said:
    Someone complaineth much and oft. The stench of bitterness and jealousy - a perceived sense of being wronged- for fear that others might have fun in a manner not his own... or heaven forbid,  would seem to have more of anything... a puritan perhaps?  Un-believable!
    Help me decide, am I felling sickened, or about to ROFL?
    Ultima Online is a vast game, and there is room for a whole lot of different playing styles and much varied ways to enjoy the playing of it.

    This, of course, on the basis that the Developers do cover as many different playing styles as possible with their fixes, adjustments, new development and not mostly focus their time at hand on fighting and fighting related issues...

    So, rather then trying to see motivations which do not exist, just consider the mere possibility that one might just voice up things which do not work for some particular playing style which they happen to like and more enjoy....

    Do other players voice up when they have concerns about "their" particularly preferred playing style ?

    Just check the Forums, and one would find tons of posts in that regard.

    So, I do not see why, just like others voice up their concerns or wishes or complaints about the playing style which "they" prefer in Ultima Online, others cannot do just the same.

    That is what this thread is all about. Nothing more, nothing less. Thoughts to enhance the Rogue template, to bring to it the Masteries which other skills have but this playing style does not, as if it was a "minor" skill or Template not deserving to have some....

    And is also a Thread about an issue, likely a BUG, where a Mastery, the Shadow Ninjitsu Mastery, which, according to its description, should work in a given manner NOT TO reveal its user when taking damage, which seems NOT TO do this, when it comes from damage coming from Chests' traps.

    Well, I pointed out how this does not work, at least in regards to damage coming from Chests' Traps.

    A BUG ? An oversight in the Code, I have no clue.

    Yet, it is a malfunction in this Mastery and a disservice to those customers (players) who read the description of that Mastery, invest their time and efforts to work the skills to then benefit from this particular feature and, YET, when it comes to damage from Chests' Traps they find out that their work, time and efforts were misplaced and a waste because they are NOT, contrary to the Mastery description, getting that benefit of not getting revealed while performing their template's activities.

    One could add that the same seems to be valid for being 120 real skillpoints Stealth.... that should "also" provide a boost to NOT getting revealed, to my understanding and, yet, when it comes to Chests' Traps, it does nothing in aid to not getting revealed....

    And the same in regards of the racial ELF bonus.... yet another benefit towards not getting revealed or making it harder which does not seem to help at all, when it comes to damage sustained from Chests' Traps....

    What I am trying to point out is, that when it comes to damage coming from Chests' traps, nothing seems to work of these particular Template settings, neither does the use of the Shadow Ninjitsu Mastery, nor being 120 real skillpoints Stealth, nor being an ELF..... nothing of these prevents the being revealed when taking damage from Chests' traps.....

    To me, this is not right, it can deter players' gameplay of this particular playing style who build their characters to rely all on hiding AND staying hidden and stealthing, and I thought it was proper to voice it up to have it rectified so to FINALLY have the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery work ACROSS THE BOARD and, indeed, making for the ninja more difficult to become unhidden from taking damage and being revealed based on ninjitsu skill, stealth skill, and mastery level.

    As well as "also" finally see having 120 real skillpoints Stealth skill (not to mention the additional +20 Stealth that could be added on top of that from being in Rat animal form...) contribute also towards not getting revealed when performing any Rogue act or when taking damage, included from Chests' Traps, as well as having also the ELF Racial bonus finally work "across the board", included when taking damage from Chests' traps, towards NOT revealing the character....

    That is it.

    I hope that the Developers will see the wrong and fix the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery, as well as the bonus to be able to take more damage at 120 real skillpoints Stealth and for being an ELF without getting revealed, when it comes from any and all type of damage coming from Chests' Traps.

    It is as simple as that, to my opinion.

    If a number of settings ALL work towards a same goal, which here is NOT getting revealed, well, THEN if the player decides to invest in them all in a Template, thus making choices, they should THEN obtain that wanted result.

    All of these settings are indicated as providing additional chances not to get revealed from taking damage. That is, if a player decides to HAVE THEM ALL on a Template, that is, build a Rogue with : 

    - Being an ELF
    - 120 "real" skill points Stealth
    - 100 Hiding
    - 120 "real" skill points Ninjitsu
    - Active use of the Ninjitsu Mastery "Shadow"

    Their expected result should be that such a Template would NOT get revealed, not just from Area damage whether coming from spells, potions or whatnot nor from passive or active detect hidden, nor ALSO when damage might be coming from Chests' Traps going off.

    This, because having all those settings constitutes the "top" possible setting and, hence, it should provide the "top" result at NOT getting revealed.

    Of course, lower real skill points invested, of being a different Race or not using that particular Mastery, should provide decreasing accouracy to stay hidden and not get revealed the less a player has invested of them on that Template.

    BUT, investing in ALL of them should, by all means, to my viewing, provide the highest expected result. That is, that of NOT getting revealed, period, not just from Area damage whether coming from spells, potions or whatnot, nor from passive or active detect hidden, nor ALSO when damage might be coming from Chests' Traps going off or from other sources.

    Thanks.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited September 14
    popps said:
    Mervyn said:
    This may be working as intended.

    As the remove trap skill has always revealed the player.

    and by setting off the trap, you're removing it too.
    Hell no... not if one has invested skill points, and real ones, into Ninjitsu and is running the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery....

    And I will say it once more, we are talking about a Rogue which is a non-fighting Template by trade, considering all of the non combat Rogue skills that he has to have on the Template.


    Do you not think people with hiding, stealth, and remove trap would not also feel that they've invested heavily in skill points? Considering Ninjitsu gives you a ton of other bonuses, and remove trap... removes traps. 

    As for someone with hiding, stealth, and ninjitsu being non combat rogue skill, i think you'll find your deathstrike deals 50 damage, and in tiger form, every touch you do bleeds the target. I once killed a spawner on my scouter with just hiding, stealth, ninjitsu, magery (no eval), stealing, snooping, detect hidden. 

    have 50 enhance potion, throw a conflag, maybe some explode potions, definitely a supernova.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 14
    Mariah said:
    1. How much damage, in figures, does the chest trap do? Mervyn has proven that the mastery works to prevent floor traps from revealing. Chest traps, however, do significantly more damage. @ Mervyn do you know if the mastery works to avoid reveals in pvp from area effect spells like earthquake, wild fire etc?
    2. Are you sure that rat form stacks with 120 stealth to give the equivelant of 140 skill?
    3. Why not use orange petals to cure the poison and avoid the repeated reveals?
    4. I believe your expectation that a thief will never be revealed no matter how severe the damage he receives to be unrealistic.
    I am unable to conduct any testing mysel; while I can set ninjitsu skill on test center, I do not have the required mastery primer.
    @Mariah ;

    I did some testing under these Testing conditions : 

    Template with

    - ELF Racial bonus making it harder to get revealed ;
    - 100 Hiding
    - 120 "Real" skillpoints Stealth
    - 120 "Real" skillpoints Ninjitsu
    - Ninjitsu Mastery 3 "Shadow" up and running
    - "Rat" animal Form (+20 Stealth bonus) when opening the Chest and triggering the Trap.
    - Suit with all 70s resists and 75 Energy Resist for being an ELF. Suit also comes with Poison Eater 12%.

    Full Health being 124 hit points.

    Damage taken upon getting the trap going off from poison.

    At first, no damage is taken (health stays 124) but then, as poison keep hitting, health goes down in poison checks, about 3 or 4 points per poison check thus, very few points....

    The Template has Hit Point Regen on the suit so, when poisoned, health would go down 3 or 4 points and then back up. The poisoned Template would never go below 115 health throughout the poison lasting because of the hit point regen on the suit and, yet, the character would still get revealed by the poison even if the damage was so minimal (we are talking of only 2 to 4 points of damage out of 124 of the health bar... that is only 1.6% to 3.2% of damage sustained).

    On average, after a few poison checks (it varies, can be after the very 1st poison check, or after 3 poison checks or 4 or 5, sometimes 6ish), the Template gets revealed WITH the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery ongoing... if the template hides back with poison ongoing, eventually after a few more poison checks of little damage (2, 3 o 4 points per poison check) inevitably gets revealed back again everytime....

    In more then 1 occasion, the template got revealed from poison at 123 health (as I said, with hit point regen it goes down a few points from a poison check and back up a few points from the hit regen...) which it is, only ONE point below the full 124 health condition !!

    That is, folks, with only less then a handfull of points of damage taken, and in a number of occasions even only ONE point of damage from the full health (124) conditions, the template still got revealed !!

    Only very rarely (just once or twice out of some 20+ poison traps I triggered from Chests) the template stayed hidden throughout the poison.

    Damage taken upon getting the trap going off from explosions

    With Explosion Traps, Health dropped to various levels (from 124 full health the highest damage taken was down to 90ish points with 36 points of damage sustained or 27.4% while lowest damage taken was down to 108ish points with 16 points of damage sustained or, 12.9%).

    All explosion Traps would reveal, inevitably, regardless the little or relatively higher damage that they did (another fact that suggests me STRONGLY that all of the bonuses which should prevent getting revealed are NOT working, for some reasons, for Chests' Traps....).

    NOTE. I do not consider even the 36ish points of damage sustained (about 27.4% of the template's health) as really high damage... 

    All in all, to sum it up, explosions from traps revealed the template right away all the times, regardless of the damage that they did, while poison traps instead, not necessarily would not reveal right away (although it has happened a few times to get reveled at the 1st poison check of 3 or 4 points of damage) BUT they would reveal multiple times when the character remained poisoned and re-hid, after a few poison checks of minimal damage (like 3 or 4 points of damage, on average per poison check...). Only very rarely (once or twice in 20+ traps triggered) the character was not revealed throughout the uncured poison lasting life.

    As mentioned, if the character hid with the poison ongoing (uncured) eventually, after a few poison checks it would get revealed and, if hid again with poison still going on, would still get revealed after a few poison checks, each for very minimal damage of like only 3 or 4 points of damage per poison check... It seems to be a random thing, sometimes the character would get revealed at the 1st poison check after re-hiding, and sometimes at the 4th or 5th or anywhere in between before the poison wore off, 

    So much for the set up of such a Template which is maxed out with all that can be done NOT to get revealed (as good as it can get)... with ELF Race bonus, all real skills 120 Stealth (+20 additional Stealth from being in Rat animal form) and 120 Ninjitsu AND having the Mastery 3 Shadow for Ninjitsu up and running....a set up with all that a player can put on NOT to get revealed and should let the character stay hidden even when taking massive amount of damage.... the template even had 12% Poison eater on, as well as a full 70s suit and Energy 75 for being an ELF.

    To me, it does look like something is dead wrong and that nothing is working as it should (i.e. NOT to reveal the character) when taking damage from Chests' Traps....
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited September 14
    Mervyn said:
    popps said:
    Mervyn said:
    This may be working as intended.

    As the remove trap skill has always revealed the player.

    and by setting off the trap, you're removing it too.
    Hell no... not if one has invested skill points, and real ones, into Ninjitsu and is running the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery....

    And I will say it once more, we are talking about a Rogue which is a non-fighting Template by trade, considering all of the non combat Rogue skills that he has to have on the Template.


    Do you not think people with hiding, stealth, and remove trap would not also feel that they've invested heavily in skill points? Considering Ninjitsu gives you a ton of other bonuses, and remove trap... removes traps. 

    As for someone with hiding, stealth, and ninjitsu being non combat rogue skill, i think you'll find your deathstrike deals 50 damage, and in tiger form, every touch you do bleeds the target. I once killed a spawner on my scouter with just hiding, stealth, ninjitsu, magery (no eval), stealing, snooping, detect hidden. 

    have 50 enhance potion, throw a conflag, maybe some explode potions, definitely a supernova.
    Sure, Ninjitsu "can" be used as a skill in support to a fighting character but my point is another....

    if a Rogue has to pick up Lockpicking, Stealing, Snooping besides Hiding and Ninjitsu, not to mention Remove Trap and Detect Hidden, there is little room left for any fighting skill and for Tactics, right ?

    Sure, some might get squeezed into the Template somehow, but nothing that can be comparable to what a Template "fit for fighting" can have....

    That is the sense of when I say that a Rogue is not a combat oriented Template, because it can never compete with fighting focused and Skilled/Geared up Templates.

    The fact that you might have killed a spawner on your Rogue having no combat skills other then Magery but with no Eval Int, does not make it commonly possible.... what is that saying ? Ah, a single swallow does not a Summer make....

    Furthermore, the point I am trying to raise is not in regards to the damage coming from PvP but, rather, from the damage coming from Chests' Traps.

    I did not Test my Template with damage coming from PvP so, I have no idea whether the Shadow Mastery and the other settings (being an ELF, having 120 all real points Stealth and Ninjitsu and being in Rat form) do work to prevent the hidden character from getting revealed upon taking PvP damage, but as in regards to damage coming from Chests' Traps something definitively does not look right to me.

    It is NOT working, to my opinion, as it should. Such a Template with that setting should NOT get revealed by Chests' Traps going off. Instead, it does, and even always in case of explosion traps and most always in case of Poison Traps.
  • The thief profession is working fine as it is. Making smoke bombs immediately usable after stealing would be incredibly OP. That 10 seconds between the steal and being able to smoke bomb is the most exciting 10 seconds anyone playing UO will ever have, and is the only reason I play. To make a change like this would be counter-intuitive to those that enjoy the adventure and the chase and, in my opinion, only benefits those who want easy access to items without risk.   

    As someone who plays a thief 99% of the time, I have plenty of suggestions for how the class could be improved. I would be more than happy to share my opinions with the devs but I will not offer them up for discussion here.
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598
    Don't you dare mess up my thief. My archer was screwed with the swing speed increase. Crafting is subpar. Pvp has been crap for years. Tamers get boring and expensive remaking pets. Samps even need high money suits. My thief is literally the last thing keeping me in this game. 

    Dungeon traps don't reveal me 100%. Running unicorn form will keep you hidden with poison traps. Other than that 90 ninja is all you need for tiger form which is THE best form in game right now.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    Urge said:
    Don't you dare mess up my thief. My archer was screwed with the swing speed increase. Crafting is subpar. Pvp has been crap for years. Tamers get boring and expensive remaking pets. Samps even need high money suits. My thief is literally the last thing keeping me in this game. 

    Dungeon traps don't reveal me 100%. Running unicorn form will keep you hidden with poison traps. Other than that 90 ninja is all you need for tiger form which is THE best form in game right now.
    Dungeon traps don't reveal me 100%. Running unicorn form will keep you hidden with poison traps.
    Too bad though, that it won't do anything with remaining hidden when hit by explosion traps....

    My point though, besides the bonus to stay hidden that is supposed to come from the ELF Racial bonus, having 120 real skill Stealthing, the additional +20 Stealth Bonus from being in Rat form, is about the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery which is described to work towards "making for the ninja more difficult to become unhidden from taking damage and being revealed based on ninjitsu skill, stealth skill, and mastery level."

    From the testing I have done, this does not happen and it is wrong.

    I have no idea whether it is a BUG, or just an oversight not taken care of when Masteries were created in regards to damage coming strictly from Chests' Traps but, whatever it is, to my impression it seems not to be working with all of the mentioned features which are supposed to prevent getting revealed by the Chests' Trap damage.

    I happen to think that this should be therefore fixed so that the described features to prevent a hidden character from getting revealed would work ALSO with Chests' Traps.


  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    The thief profession is working fine as it is. Making smoke bombs immediately usable after stealing would be incredibly OP. That 10 seconds between the steal and being able to smoke bomb is the most exciting 10 seconds anyone playing UO will ever have, and is the only reason I play. To make a change like this would be counter-intuitive to those that enjoy the adventure and the chase and, in my opinion, only benefits those who want easy access to items without risk.   

    As someone who plays a thief 99% of the time, I have plenty of suggestions for how the class could be improved. I would be more than happy to share my opinions with the devs but I will not offer them up for discussion here.
    Well, one does not have to use features if they do not want to....

    If you enjoy those 10 seconds before you can use a smoke bomb you'd still be able to do it even if smoke bombs were made to work (as it should be, to my opinion) right after a steal.

    My point is, that is Weapon skills can use smoke bombs right away, with no delay, I do not see why other skills, likewise, should not be able to do the same.

    And this, especially for Rogues who can hardly be as focused on combat skills as many of their targets are considering the other many Rogue skills that they have to have, instead.
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