Rogues Skills, why there are no masteries for them ?

I was not around when Masteries were implemented so, I know nothing about any players' feedback or discussions that might have arosen at that time about Masteries and skills....

Nonetheless, I can't help but noticing that Rogue skills like hiding, stealthing, stealing etc. etc. have no masteries for them....

Is there a reason for that ?

I mean, the Rogue Template is already quite limited in its playability and reason to exist so, perhaps, having Masteries that had broadened its range of playability and usefullness might have helped this particular profession....

Does anyone who was around at the time of Designing and implementing Masteries and who might have participated to the feedback and discussions on the Forums happen to know what was the reason to further limit the Rogue Template by having masteries be done for other skills but not for the Rogue skills ?
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Comments

  • I disagree that rogues are badly limited.  With my rogue I can:
    Steal balms and lotions from monsters
    Steal Exodus keys, ML ingredients and gems from Exodus Zeolots
    Find and open hidden boxes in Exodus or Kotl City
    Steal artifacts in numerous dungeons

    If I join VvV I can steal sigils, earning Silver which I can then use to purchase Royal pardons and sell to other players. 

    If I were of different temperament I could stealth around champ areas and steal from players, but I don't like to do that ( I don't like upsetting people).

    I see no area where having a 'mastery' would improve or expand what I can do.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 618
    edited September 2019

    To start - a lot of the masteries are based around a main skill of a template - for the rogue - they have chosen Ninjitsu, which does have a Mastery, and good ones as well.

    My first thought was the same as Petra's, going to disagree on your "limited usefulness" of the Rogue.

    If you go to Siege, you will notice almost every single character is using Hide/Stealth++. In my opinion, that's a bit of a downside of Siege, but it shows in that environment, it makes players feel safer, and how powerful those rogue skills are.


    • VvV rogues are good - fun stealing sigils, and the fastest way to gain points almost.
    • Scouting for action, Champ Spawns, it isn't all done by ghost/player cams(as assumed by most), we in fact use rogues a lot for exact scout reports, and to raid precisely at the right time.
    • Anti scouting measure, again, we use rogue trackers/detect hiders to stop ourselves being scouted and to hunt and kill enemy rogues. Useful at Champion Spawns and IDOCS.
    • Player stealing.
    • City Stealing for items.
    • Monster stealing.
    • Kotl City, Ararat, Exodus hidden chests.
    • Dungeon chests.
    • Dungeon stealing for items.
    • Khaldun Puzzle Chests.
    • Combat rogues are the best dismounters, which turn the tide of pvp battles.
    • Being Protector at Champ spawns, looting gold off the ground at champ spawns. :)

    If you were to ask me for one thing from a Rogue, give them a method to get higher up the Loot chain, I always find that is a weakness in various play areas, but then there is a post I need to make still, to even articulate what I consider good loot.


  • Funny, I don't feel limited.  *turns into a white Tiger and goes and steals some powerscrolls*

    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • Cookie said:
    If you go to Siege, you will notice almost every single character is using Hide/Stealth++. In my opinion, that's a bit of a downside of Siege, but it shows in that environment, it makes players feel safer, and how powerful those rogue skills are.
    hiding+stealth is completely overpowered on Siege, especially since for some reason Siege doesn't have passive detect for player characters. Monsters will passively detect you occasionally, players never will, not even being elves with 100 detect+tracking on.
    This is coming from a player who uses stealth by the way.

    About the original post:

    Masteries are fine the way they are.Rogue skills don't need them (they benefit from the ones skills like ninjitsu have as Victim pointed out)
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598

    I see your point but I've made major coin just from my thief. So much so that it's become my most favorite and profitable character ever.

    I'm not sure what is classified as an actual rogue now but I personally don't acknowledge ninja as anything other than an interchangeable support skill so I do see your point on this.

    If anything I'd like to see more fun things to do with a thief. Like the locked trap boxes around towns could yield some nice stuff. Dungeon chests could be improved.

  • DrakelordDrakelord Posts: 1,116
    All you Rogues go steal herbs!!!  Those huntsmen Recipes need the herbs to make the seasoning that going to be the real killer on the vendors for a while
    Remove Trap = Bad News
    for
    Treasure Hunters
  • I haven't played my rogue as a money maker for a very long time. In fact I only played her as such when Britannia was young and I stole armor and weapons from town chests to sell back to npcs. That's how I made enough money for my first house. I had a lot of fun doing that but you'd for sure have to consider that process a grind.

    I wasn't playing when the stealable dungeon artifacts were first introduced. Now there aren't many items on the list that most shards aren't fully saturated with ...

    https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/stealing-in-dungeons/

    For the higher end items, say Rarity Levels 9 thru 12, how much fun is it for rogues to compete for single items that spawn every 16 to 128 days? Where is the fun in knowing the system and having a rogue that camps those spawn sites, leaving only once in awhile to put an item away? Those that are into it have it locked down. That's great! But it's a pretty big stretch to call this "playing a rogue".

    Stealing off monsters is not a money maker. Stealing from spawn chests isn't a money maker. There are much faster ways to earn gold than this. And while stealing from monsters is fun, why do it if the gold isn't great and the items aren't really wanted?


    I don't know anyone on my shard that's VvV-ing. I'm not saying there isn't anyone playing a rogue that steals sigils but I've never once heard it talked about in General or Alliance chat. And if the ever problematic PvP thief isn't your thing? Then what?

    Khaldun puzzle chests are a fun way, or were a fun way, to find low end treasure maps. But I stopped going when more and more of the chests became bugged, giving you the message that the container is secure, so you can't take anything out of it. There are easier less frustrating ways to get maps than dealing with bugged chests. 

    I've never found anything of interest in a chest that spawned by using Detect Hidden in Khaldun or Exodus. They don't contain enough gold to make the time it takes worth it. And they don't contain anything that can be marketed to other players. 

    I appreciate Popps opening up a dialogue on rogues but I'm not the least bit interested in masteries for rogues. Not one little bit. What I'd like, what I've always wanted for rogues, is to be useful in a way that's fun and doesn't wear out (like the dungeon stealables system). 

    I can think of lots of ways systems already in place could be revisited that would make playing a rogue more fun. That would offer better and more interesting loot. And would make a rogue more useful to the rest of the player population. But I'm not going to spin my wheels and spend my energy on it until or unless dev's are looking to engage players in a dialogue on the subject.   
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598
    Ive been known to steal a scroll and a mastery every now and then. I find it a thrill to do and a challenge to escape. 

    Yes I'd love to see more fun things to do. I think revamping dungeon chests with more todayish loot would be a great start. 

    Then I think running around the land detecting chests to lockpick and remove trap would also be fun. 
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    Urge said:
    Ive been known to steal a scroll and a mastery every now and then. I find it a thrill to do and a challenge to escape. 

    Yes I'd love to see more fun things to do. I think revamping dungeon chests with more todayish loot would be a great start. 

    Then I think running around the land detecting chests to lockpick and remove trap would also be fun. 
    One thing that I find particularly underwhelming, is stealing from the Zealots in Exodus Dungeon....

    While there is a very small chance to steal one of the 4 keys for Exodus, what really bothers me, is that most of the time the steal, even at 120 Legendary Stealing skill, yeilds only gold. Yes, ONLY gold, sometimes a few regular gems....

    Only VERY rarely one gets 1 Peerless ingredient....

    Bottom line is, MOST of the time stealing, even at the Legendary level, comes fruitless even though there is dangers associated....

    Not to mention, trying to use Remove Trap on the hidden chests, still in the Exodus Dungeon....

    Even at 100 GM Remove Trap skill, the message most always comes out as "Too Challenging" (UHU ???), inevtably the attempt fails setting the trap go off....

    SO, it is totally pointless to carry remove trap on the Template, at least down in Exodus Dungeon.... better just stay at a distance and cast telekinesis to set the trap off....

    But how much sense does this make, if I may ask @Kyronix ?

    The player invests 100 skill points in the Template only to end up with a useless skill that removes no trap and using Telekinesis from a distance gets better results ?

    Personally, I think that there is quite a good number of things that would need to be adjusted to make the Rogue player again fun and balanced versus the other professions in UO....

    Investing skill points, like in the case of Stealing or Remove Trap, should absolutely yield better results as it does not, at least to my viewing...

    Otherwise, what people would do (as they do now), is just run that one spawn or two like the roof where their time spent yields best results as compared to anything else they could do in UO.

    That is at least how I see it.
  • I think the rogue character is the most fun of all of them. Leave it alone. I play a thief exclusively. Don't mess it up with your min/maxing meta gaming garbage. I don't care how profitable it is or what I get for "investing skill points." There are a bunch of people who play the rogue because it is unique and fun for us.

    I have been answering your questions in the stratics crime section. How did I know that you would be over here trying to get the devs to ruin my play style? It is obvious to me that you know nothing about this play style unless you became an expert on the subject since last night. I don't know what you are trying to do @popps but take all the advice I gave you over there and make it work for you. Perhaps you will become humbled by it. Trash.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,206
    edited October 2019
     :D  I see you met Popps. 
  • This dude seriously was asking me why a thief would want to use ninjitsu just yesterday. Now he thinks devs should listen to his suggestions on how to change the class. Wow... Just... Wow.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,206
    He has done that to T Maps, T Hunting, Pets, High Seas, Fishing, etc
  • They need to put some kind of warning by his name or something. 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,206
     :D  He should come with a warning label!  :D  
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    I think the rogue character is the most fun of all of them. Leave it alone. I play a thief exclusively. Don't mess it up with your min/maxing meta gaming garbage. I don't care how profitable it is or what I get for "investing skill points." There are a bunch of people who play the rogue because it is unique and fun for us.

    I have been answering your questions in the stratics crime section. How did I know that you would be over here trying to get the devs to ruin my play style? It is obvious to me that you know nothing about this play style unless you became an expert on the subject since last night. I don't know what you are trying to do @ popps but take all the advice I gave you over there and make it work for you. Perhaps you will become humbled by it. Trash.
    Not at all !

    While the " PvP " aspects for the Rogue character might be fun to play, and I am NOT saying they are not, the " PvM " aspects for the Rogue character perhaps need some love.....

    Take the stealables.....

    People is screaming about scripters having ruined IDOCS for them, but why don't we then also mention what scripters have done to " PvM " Rogue characters trying to get the in-game stealables?

    They set their BOT to sit there by the stealable at each Server up from maintanance and run their script until the item gets created and steal it..... other " PvM " Rogue players, simply do not have a chance.....

    Why can't it be possible to "improve" the PvM aspects for the Rogue character without endangering the " PvP " aspects which players already appreciate ?

    Not all players play a Rogue character in PvP, there is plenty who have tried, until they found out all of the shortcomings, at least in PvM, to play a PvM Rogue character and then abandoned it because they saw how underhwelming and unfun it was, due to scripters, yes, but also to a very low potential for profitability in PvM.....

    Having Masteries for Rogue skills (and doing domething to stop scripters' Rogue characters) perhaps could help towards a rightfull "comeback" of the Rogue character in Ultima Online...

    At least, that is the way I see it.
  • @popps ; You have absolutely no knowledge of using this skill, as evidenced in the other thread where you didn't know that you must have both hands empty to steal
    Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.

    I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!
  • @popps

    My point is exactly what @Petra_Fyde said:

    We have fun with our rogues. If anyone should be recommending changes, it should be me, or her, or someone who plays a rogue. Not someone who apparently just found out that the class exists yesterday and knows nothing about it. You asked me about how armor affects stealing yesterday, a clear sign that you know nothing about it. I would be surprised to learn that you have ever even used a rogue skill at all. 

    If PvM stealing has an issue with scripters, it needs to be dealt with by banning those scripters, not by adding some silly masteries. When someone like @Petra_Fyde has a suggestion for how PvM stealing could be made better I hope someone listens. Until then I suggest that it be left alone and that you keep your mouth shut and go do something else if the rewards aren't worth your precious time or whatever.

    I should have known you were going to try to cause problems when you were asking for a list of rogue artifacts on stratics.  In my first reply to you, I said that if you are planning on playing a rogue, you need to worry less about lists, gear, and stuff, and to focus on having fun with it instead. Believe it or not, for some of us, this game isn't all about receiving rewards for doing content. For some, the content itself is reward enough and whatever rewards we get are just extra. Perhaps you should play exclusively on test center, you get a bunch of stuff just for logging in there. Also, you will be away from the rest of us the majority of the time, which would make the game better for everyone and maybe when it comes time to test something, someone might listen to your stupid ideas.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited October 2019
    @ popps  You have absolutely no knowledge of using this skill, as evidenced in the other thread where you didn't know that you must have both hands empty to steal
    Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.

    I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!
    @Petra_Fyde

     So, let me understand, should I be happy that the UO stealables, at least those which are rarer, are not unusually camped by scripters and, when this haooens, consequentially pretty much not available to the ordinary, average PvM Rogue who does not script ?

    Or, that stealing from Zealots just yields for the most part some gold, exceptionally some ordinary gems (5 or 6....) and only very seldomly (this at 120 Legendary stealing....) 1 or very maybe 2 ML resources and once in a blue moon an Exodus key ?

    In the time it takes a high end Rogue to get LESS then 10-15 ML resources, the people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....

    And what does this mean ? That these players piling up gold drive up the prices for everything (inflation) and the PvM Rogue who can hardly make a gold point or 2, cannot afford buying anything....

    My point, is a point of BALANCING..... when reaching the high end of their UO profession, to MY opinion, all professions should be moreless equally capable of making the same in-game gold so as to be able to then afford whatever they may need in the game....

    Sure, it is a game, and it is about fun.... no doubt about that.

    My question is, though, WHY can't that fun playing of a Rogue ALSO be one that was to bring to that UO "Rogue" Profession the same gold which other Templates doing the Roof and other high end encounters can achieve in the same  playing time ?

    I am not talking about taking the fun out of the Rogue profession, I am talking about making it AS profitable or at least not as much less, as other professions in UO.

    Try spending 2 hours going around looting Dungeons' chests with a high end Legendary Rogue, and try spend that same exact time doing the Roof or some other high end encounter and then let's see what the "earning DELTA" is in between the 2.....

    Yet, the in-game time spent is the same....

    I am talking of an issue with BALANCE.

    As of now, to my opinion, the Rogue, at least in PvM, is way, but WAY less profitable as other professions in UO.

    I am just saying to do something to make it more rewarding to"catch up" with other Professions earnability potential in the game....
  • DukarloDukarlo Posts: 44
    edited October 2019
    Rogues are still playable. They take patience, cunning, skill, and thinking outside of the box. An experienced, dedicated thief can do quite well. A good thief keeps thier secrets a secret on message forums. As far as stealing artifacts etc in trammel goes. I've never been a fan. I always thought those should spawn in fel dungeons and in not just one spot. It would be nice if there were a lot of random spots where there was no learnable timer. If there were some fel dungeon chests  that were worthwhile that also didnt have the same locations over and over it would promote fel dungeon crawling by giving rogues something to do while seeking out dungeon stealables as well as creating possible old school interaction between players that is not over the top. Any player that is in a fel dungeon knows the risks and should be a potential mark. With insurance in the game items are mostly safe but creating a slight chance someone has uninsured loot on them would be a nice addition.
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598
    Lol Petra. 

    Oh dear. First the only stealable that's worth stealing is the inquis. That's been scripted since doom was made. The rest aren't worth the effort. 

    Yes I'd like to see more to do with a thief but a complete overhaul isn't needed at all. 
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 787
    edited October 2019
    Ok, so I'm weird and unusual - I don't care what stealables are 'worth' stealing - I don't play for 'worth'. At any given time I couldn't tell you how much gold I have in the bank - it's irrelevant to my play style. It just kind of accumulates when I'm not looking. I play for fun!  Stealing from mobs is fun, stealing in Exodus is fun - and you'll get more goodies if you have a bit of luck on your suit. 

    Stealing sigils in VvV is most fun when there's someone around looking for you and can't find you.
    Gold has nothing to do with that situation.

    I had shed loads of fun last Halloween looking for boxes in Khaldun.

    I'll steal the little skull candle in Doom if I want to do a particular deco scene, is it worth gold? heck no!  but if you want to set up a spooky scene for Halloween, it fits.


    people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....
    So what? I don't want or need PILES of gold, or items worth millions.  I don't care what they've got.

    Don't make the character type fit your playstyle - play a character type that already fits. If gold is your god - play a character that gets lots of gold.
  • MerusMerus Posts: 304
    popps said:
    @ popps  You have absolutely no knowledge of using this skill, as evidenced in the other thread where you didn't know that you must have both hands empty to steal
    Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.

    I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!
    @ Petra_Fyde

     So, let me understand, should I be happy that the UO stealables, at least those which are rarer, are not unusually camped by scripters and, when this haooens, consequentially pretty much not available to the ordinary, average PvM Rogue who does not script ?

    Or, that stealing from Zealots just yields for the most part some gold, exceptionally some ordinary gems (5 or 6....) and only very seldomly (this at 120 Legendary stealing....) 1 or very maybe 2 ML resources and once in a blue moon an Exodus key ?

    In the time it takes a high end Rogue to get LESS then 10-15 ML resources, the people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....

    And what does this mean ? That these players piling up gold drive up the prices for everything (inflation) and the PvM Rogue who can hardly make a gold point or 2, cannot afford buying anything....

    My point, is a point of BALANCING..... when reaching the high end of their UO profession, to MY opinion, all professions should be moreless equally capable of making the same in-game gold so as to be able to then afford whatever they may need in the game....

    Sure, it is a game, and it is about fun.... no doubt about that.

    My question is, though, WHY can't that fun playing of a Rogue ALSO be one that was to bring to that UO "Rogue" Profession the same gold which other Templates doing the Roof and other high end encounters can achieve in the same  playing time ?

    I am not talking about taking the fun out of the Rogue profession, I am talking about making it AS profitable or at least not as much less, as other professions in UO.

    Try spending 2 hours going around looting Dungeons' chests with a high end Legendary Rogue, and try spend that same exact time doing the Roof or some other high end encounter and then let's see what the "earning DELTA" is in between the 2.....

    Yet, the in-game time spent is the same....

    I am talking of an issue with BALANCE.

    As of now, to my opinion, the Rogue, at least in PvM, is way, but WAY less profitable as other professions in UO.

    I am just saying to do something to make it more rewarding to"catch up" with other Professions earnability potential in the game....
    I’m sorry but no, every class should not have equal access to make the same “profit” for their activities.  While each class may have a role to play, and opportunities for fun depending on the interest of the players, they do not all produce results that have the same value in the economy... nor should they.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited October 2019
    Dukarlo said:
    Rogues are still playable. They take patience, cunning, skill, and thinking outside of the box. An experienced, dedicated thief can do quite well. A good thief keeps thier secrets a secret on message forums. As far as stealing artifacts etc in trammel goes. I've never been a fan. I always thought those should spawn in fel dungeons and in not just one spot. It would be nice if there were a lot of random spots where there was no learnable timer. If there were some fel dungeon chests  that were worthwhile that also didnt have the same locations over and over it would promote fel dungeon crawling by giving rogues something to do while seeking out dungeon stealables as well as creating possible old school interaction between players that is not over the top. Any player that is in a fel dungeon knows the risks and should be a potential mark. With insurance in the game items are mostly safe but creating a slight chance someone has uninsured loot on them would be a nice addition.
     It would be nice if there were a lot of random spots where there was no learnable timer.
    That was tried with resources Years back, when their spawning was made at random locations precisely to solve the problem created by scripters and look at what happened..... now it is practically only scripters who mine and lumberjack.... and they spawn at random locations at random times...

    Unfortunately, making stealables spawn at random locations I doubt that it would hurt much scripters who rely on BOTs to get around looking where those stealables spawn and steal the, as they appear....

    I think that some other solution would need to be conceived to deal with the problem of scripters dominating the rare stealables spawns thanking to their scripts....

    As in regards to limiting Rogues in Felucca only, I need to disagree. Most of the players in Ultima Online prefer the Trammel ruleset, not the Felucca one and this includes players who may want to play a Rogue albeit, for PvM and not PvP, necessarily....

    So, limiting the use of a Rogue character to only the Felucca facet, would take away to those players who, instead, prefer the Trammel ruleset, the pssibility to enjoy playing a Rogue character, if they so wish.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    Merus said:
    popps said:
    @ popps  You have absolutely no knowledge of using this skill, as evidenced in the other thread where you didn't know that you must have both hands empty to steal
    Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.

    I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!
    @ Petra_Fyde

     So, let me understand, should I be happy that the UO stealables, at least those which are rarer, are not unusually camped by scripters and, when this haooens, consequentially pretty much not available to the ordinary, average PvM Rogue who does not script ?

    Or, that stealing from Zealots just yields for the most part some gold, exceptionally some ordinary gems (5 or 6....) and only very seldomly (this at 120 Legendary stealing....) 1 or very maybe 2 ML resources and once in a blue moon an Exodus key ?

    In the time it takes a high end Rogue to get LESS then 10-15 ML resources, the people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....

    And what does this mean ? That these players piling up gold drive up the prices for everything (inflation) and the PvM Rogue who can hardly make a gold point or 2, cannot afford buying anything....

    My point, is a point of BALANCING..... when reaching the high end of their UO profession, to MY opinion, all professions should be moreless equally capable of making the same in-game gold so as to be able to then afford whatever they may need in the game....

    Sure, it is a game, and it is about fun.... no doubt about that.

    My question is, though, WHY can't that fun playing of a Rogue ALSO be one that was to bring to that UO "Rogue" Profession the same gold which other Templates doing the Roof and other high end encounters can achieve in the same  playing time ?

    I am not talking about taking the fun out of the Rogue profession, I am talking about making it AS profitable or at least not as much less, as other professions in UO.

    Try spending 2 hours going around looting Dungeons' chests with a high end Legendary Rogue, and try spend that same exact time doing the Roof or some other high end encounter and then let's see what the "earning DELTA" is in between the 2.....

    Yet, the in-game time spent is the same....

    I am talking of an issue with BALANCE.

    As of now, to my opinion, the Rogue, at least in PvM, is way, but WAY less profitable as other professions in UO.

    I am just saying to do something to make it more rewarding to"catch up" with other Professions earnability potential in the game....
    I’m sorry but no, every class should not have equal access to make the same “profit” for their activities.  While each class may have a role to play, and opportunities for fun depending on the interest of the players, they do not all produce results that have the same value in the economy... nor should they.
    I can possibly agree on that BUT, the differences in profitability should neither be so enormous as they are now....

    Each and every "ability" in Ultima Online should have a "unique" ability to get to some highly valuable items only accessable to THAT Profession, of course upon reaching the high end of the training for that given Profession.

    This way, each and every Profession would have their "unique" ways at making wealth which they ONLY can make to then use that wealth for their spending needs in Ultima Online.

    Otherwise, if we have Professions which can make uber millions of gold and Professions which can only make too little, of course that inbalances among Professions would be all over the place...

    As I said, I see it as an issue of Balance.
  • Stinky_PeteStinky_Pete Posts: 33
    edited October 2019
    Maybe @popps you can't make a profit because you don't know what you are doing. Surely you have never considered that. They just need to change the game so that you can make some gold, right? Like I said before, if you want something for nothing... Go to test center, I think you'll love it there.

    I could make a couple hundred K an hour (Siege) using rogue skills if I wanted to. I don't because PvM stealing isn't really my thing, but I could. I'm not going to tell you how because I would hate to spoil the fun you might have trying to figure it out. If you are looking for an easy way to make gold, go make a sampire and leave the rogues alone.
  • DukarloDukarlo Posts: 44
    This thread is nice for no other reason than thieves are actually being talked about
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,811
    edited October 2019
    Maybe @ popps you can't make a profit because you don't know what you are doing. Surely you have never considered that. They just need to change the game so that you can make some gold, right? Like I said before, if you want something for nothing... Go to test center, I think you'll love it there.

    I could make a couple hundred K an hour (Siege) using rogue skills if I wanted to. I don't because PvM stealing isn't really my thing, but I could. I'm not going to tell you how because I would hate to spoil the fun you might have trying to figure it out. If you are looking for an easy way to make gold, go make a sampire and leave the rogues alone.
    No, I am saying something different.

    I know that, if used well in PvP, a Rogue character can possibly make, if lucky and they find the right Target, good gold with items stolen from players although, it remains to be seen if the time invested in doing that in the end is comparable, as far as profitability goes, with those players who, instead, spend their in-game time doing the Roof or similars....

    My point is another, and more addresses the playability (and profitability) of a Rogue character in PvM.

    Since stealing out of players is out of the question, what remains is hitting Town and Dungeon crates, stealing from Monsters and from the Zealots in Exodus, and the items which spawn to be stolen....

    Considering how the stealables have been for long taken away by scripters, pretty much, how even the "rare" items (which by the way are a very rare steal...) do not receive much appeal from players and, thus, have no market so much that players who happen to steal them turn them in for Clean Up points, how stealing from the Zealots other then for the Exodus keys (another quite very rare steal, by the way... and also in direct competition with the keys being craftable....) seems to me quite pointless for the very little and scarce loot it provides (mostly little gold, rarely some nrmal gems, 5 or 6, and ultra rarely 1 ML resource, once in a blue moon 2.....), and how Town and Dungeon chests, even the highest level ones, look to give just very basic stuff totally blown by the Legendary drops which any higher end Monster would provide, I frankly do not see what would be the point of playing a Rogue in PvM as things stand now in Ultima Online....

    And, apparently, my thinking is not much far away from that of the Developers if I then read this Post from Kyronix.... https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/31835/#Comment_31835
    Re: Herbs - I'm apprehensive to add these to additional areas of the world.  I understand the concern that the limited spawn of them makes them difficult to acquire, however, I think the dried herbs fall into a unique category.  They've been around for a very, very long time.  They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do.
    @Kyronix says ..... "They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do."

    And, frankly, I wholeheartedly and totally agree with him on that.

  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598

    Ok, so I'm weird and unusual - I don't care what stealables are 'worth' stealing - I don't play for 'worth'. At any given time I couldn't tell you how much gold I have in the bank - it's irrelevant to my play style. It just kind of accumulates when I'm not looking. I play for fun!  Stealing from mobs is fun, stealing in Exodus is fun - and you'll get more goodies if you have a bit of luck on your suit. 

    Stealing sigils in VvV is most fun when there's someone around looking for you and can't find you.
    Gold has nothing to do with that situation.

    I had shed loads of fun last Halloween looking for boxes in Khaldun.

    I'll steal the little skull candle in Doom if I want to do a particular deco scene, is it worth gold? heck no!  but if you want to set up a spooky scene for Halloween, it fits.


    people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....
    So what? I don't want or need PILES of gold, or items worth millions.  I don't care what they've got.

    Don't make the character type fit your playstyle - play a character type that already fits. If gold is your god - play a character that gets lots of gold.

    I was directing the lol at you giving popps hell. Nothing I said was directed toward you at all babe.
  • My point is that making decent gold as a PvM thief is entirely possible. You just don't know how and I would bet that @Kyronix doesn't either. Maybe PvM stealing does need some changes. I wouldn't know as I am not an expert in such content and it is obvious that you are not either. I suggest that we both stay out of any conversation regarding PvM thief changes with the exception of me saying DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES TO WHAT I DO! 
This discussion has been closed.