New Tmap proposals

Faeryl

JollyJade said:

I tried to do T-Hunting with other people. But apart from taking some noob once in a blue moon, as soon as we were two expirienced hunters we were just standing in each others way.

People who can't solo the old 6 maps just didn't build a T-Hunter. Those will be happy.

People who had a T-Hunter and solo'd the 6 and 7 maps will call it quits over this nonsense.

Funny. I solo level 6 and 7 maps, and I'm looking forward to the new changes. I'm hardly going to have a fit and quit treasure hunting over it.

jelinidas

Kyronix said:

With the new distribution for maps the way they are perhaps we may restrict the puzzle trap to a Lvl 5 only, and extend the explosion to a Lvl 4. Remains to be seen.

There has to be a give and take though - traps (in whatever final form they take) are a part of treasure hunting.  There's a few variables we have to work with - puzzles, explosions, Remove Trap Skill, Magic Untrap.  How they all shuffle into the final encounter remains to be seen.

Traps are fine and should be part of treasure hunting. That we can agree on.
Remove trap skill is doable, that's fine. A true treasure hunter should have it as well as lockpicking and carto. Done deal, we agree again.

But, to add a silly puzzle on the top level maps is still crazy. Don't change things just to put your stamp on it. I think your data is off though, current lvl 4 and 5s are easily done solo by anyone with a dedicated treasure hunter. Lvl 6s and 7s are what most folks are doing solo. Do not force group play on solo players. Treasure hunting is not now or will be a group sport.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop. Better late then never! I have enjoyed Krampus hunting and the Beacons to a degree. Thanks again.

I_was_there_recently

Well I did now a Treasure map (trove) by myself.
100 carthography skill, 100 lockpicking skill, 100 remove trap skill.
I failed 3 times to pick the lock, when I got it open. I used remove trap skill on the chest... and got that puzzle popping up. - I needed 4 tries to solve it. 

A grubber poped up and died infront of me. He was emtpy.
And when I opend the chest. - It had just some dust in it.

I needed 30 minutes for.... "dust"....?!

Sorry. That ain´t any fun.

I had one of the first T-hunter on Europa in 1999. And I loved doing T-hunts all the years along. - But the current changes does not enjoy me.

I hope you really rethink that puzzeling thing. There are enough puzzles in Khaldun or Underworld, if I want to do any puzzels. (which I enjoy from time to time to do...)

And please rethink of busting each time on a failure by lockpicking or remove trap an item. - At least at GM, you shouldn´t fail so often.

ZekeTerra

@Kyronix adding a Puzzle does not equate to making it a group activity.  I solo 6's all the time and can do 7's when I get them or do them with a friend.  I don't mind having to have Remove Trap on the template, it replaces mining so it makes no difference to me.  Puzzles on the other hand only add to delay of getting to the treasure while the rest of the "supposed" group wait around with nothing to do.  I for one hate puzzles and don't do them in game (or any other game I play).  I'm a 63 year old retiree and I find doing t-hunting relaxing when no one else is around and we rarely as a guild do t-maps since it only takes 2 or 3 mins of a group of players to take out a level 7 spawn.  We do sometimes have t-map contests where we divide up to groups of 2 or 3 and see who gets through all 7 maps the fastest.  I only do level 5's today in Fel to get pinks and level 6 maps.  The spawn is not a challenge at all, but I do find level 6's to be a fun solo challenge, specially when you get 4 or 5 AW's spawning at once.  I have now spent 4 hours testing on TC for the last 3 days and tbh wearing a 2100+ luck suit w/out the statue buff, only getting 9 items is a let down.  I did get a few gold chests of which one contained a Legendary Armor piece and another had 2, the ratio of junk (cursed or lesser magic items) when you only get 9  (2 out of 3 were cursed in some way) seems low.  I have yet to see any of the normal chest items (mana phasing orb, recipe, MIBs, pinks or blues, etc).  I did get one map from one of the chest. I also got 1 of the Ancient Weapons.  Granted that 12 maps (10 were hoard and 2 were the new level 5's) is not a lot.  And in case I didn't state it earlier I REALLY HATE PUZZLES.

quickblade

Why are we even talking about level 3-4 maps ? I mean even in the current format, all I care is level 7 , who would want to do a lower maps with lower intensity mods , I want max intensity !

I_was_there_recently

Short update: did 2 maps more... Trove.
First of them was empty. 
Second of them was full but I could not pick up any item. - Neither moving around, nor relogging helped.

And again. I do not want a puzzle on chest. - It needs a lot of time. - Give me back the old way of remove trap on the chest please.
Thank you

Petra_Fyde

I had a similar experience. 
my map was Ranger - Hoard - Trammel
source of the map was - bank bag of maps (character was copied after the current update, so newly generated content)
items gave the message 'you cannot pick that up'. The bag of gold and gems could not be opened, message was 'I can't reach that'.

Merus

Kyronix said:

Merus said:

@ Kyronix The “base loot” comment is a cop out.  The loot in level 4 and 5 maps must have better loot or there would be no point in having them exist.

Players have been, and continue to tell you that we want access to the best loot that treasure maps have to offer without the addition of requiring remove trap to get it.  My fear, along with many others is that you (the developers) have your mind made up about including remove trap and absolutely no amount of feedback, constructive or otherwise, is going to change that.  If you ask for players feedback, honestly, you should listen to it.  No one is going to stop doing maps or close an account because you leave remove trap out of this revamp... but adding it will have that negative impact.

It's not a cop out, its how the levels are currently implemented.  The only difference comes in the quantity, and the chance to get some items that are in the loot table.  This chance, however, is negated (in a pretty big way) by the guaranteed number of items that we are putting in a chest that was implemented in the latest release.  The bottom line is there isn't anything in a Lvl 4 or 5 that you can't get in a Lvl 3.  

As for the mobs - they are definitely more difficult at Lvl 4 and 5 in a base situation, however Lvl 3 does have a chance to get higher end mobs thrown in during the spawn.  

"Players have been, and continue to tell you that we want access to the best loot that treasure maps have to offer without the addition of requiring remove trap to get it. "

This is an untenable situation.  You cannot have it both ways.  Traps have always been part of Treasure Hunting, and have always been a broken part of treasure hunting.  If you want access to the absolute best loot that the encounter has to offer you will have to choose whether you want to invest skill in Remove Trap (or Magery) OR if you don't you will have to be solve the puzzle trap and take your chances.  We're definitely open to feedback, and alternatives to the current implementation.  If I wasn't I wouldn't expend the effort required to track and respond to all of it across all the lines of communication.  

@Kyronix

I think the point many of us are trying to make is that there are alternatives to what the “trade off” should be... remove trap / puzzle solving isn’t the only alternative.  Even if you insist on making remove trap relevant to treasure maps, it could be done without requiring on the treasure hunter.  A “trap removal kit” could easily be a craftable that could be brought along to use on the chest.  The skill would be relevant, there would be an item to promote trade, and thunter templates that did not include mining wouldn’t get hosed.

Kyronix

@Merus (without falling into quote-inception)

For a long time traps have been an irrelevant part of Treasure Hunting.  One of the most exciting activities in my early days was group treasure hunting.  There was fighting, a sense of discovery, the hillarity of the Treasure Hunter going boom, and ultimately the unknown of what was going to be inside.  Obviously times have changed, templates have evolved, and playstyles have adjusted.  I get that.  Part of this revamp is to deliver on the request of bumping loot.  Part of that is to fix the things that are/were broken with Treasure Hunting.  Traps were a major part of that.  UO character development has always been about give and take.  You can be a master of some, but not a master of all.  If I can take a full whammie character to a "treasure" map and bash on some mobs and then walk away with phat loot - where is the treasure hunting part of it?  That is no different than any other encounter involving combat at its core, and one that certainly doesn't warrant access to loot items reserved for other areas of the game world.  Introducing the trap is a way to bring balance to the entire encounter.

The idea of a trap removal kit was floated - but then we are back into the same situation we are at now - why have the trap in the first place?  

We are open to figuring out the best solution possible to check as many boxes on the revamp checklist as possible.  If that doesn't end up including puzzle traps, so be it.  We can always go back to the drawing board if players provide thoughtful, considerate, and useful feedback (like you have done).  That is why I made the stricter feedback thread.  Too often we see feedback that is based on inaccurate or incomplete information by people who are wholly uninterested in anything but pushing a point that falls somewhere between "nobody asked for this" and "you guys never listen and aren't willing to make changes" 

Thanks again for your thoughtful post.  See you on TC!

jelinidas

Kyronix said:

…. information by people who are wholly uninterested in anything but pushing a point that falls somewhere between "nobody asked for this" and "you guys never listen and aren't willing to make changes" 

See, here again is my problem. You did ask for opinions and feedback about some things but it seems you already had your minds made up and were just going through the motions. Where were pucking fuzzles ever talked about?? You just put them in with no discussion about it! Where are secret compartments that everyone seemed to like? You know.. detect hidden. Another under used skill.

I have already told you that I have zero problems with traps. They should be trapped! Use remove trap skill, we will adapt, its all good. Lockpicking and carto..yup, Its treasure hunting.

I have now made a new char on TC1 to look at these fuzzles. I have already been warned today by you via PM so I will try to be nice(r). 

Are you freaking kidding me! These fuzzles are a joke. The whole concept is a joke. That slider trap can kma. No go, nada, never. See, I can be nice! (Call my wife to hear what I really said!)

I do hope your listening to the feedback and really do hope you are willing to make changes. Only time will tell. I know you go to stratics, not any better over there either.  And, for the record, nobody did ask for this!

A simple loot bump...boom, done. Adding remove trap, ok...done. Your feedback would not be bad. These fuzzles… puck that! 

That slider trap is purely insane. Do you really enjoy that stuff??

Please, please, please stop this nonsense. re read the comments. 99% are saying the same thing! KILL THE PUCKING FUZZLES! Then, lets work on loot, bugs, and meaningful content. TY

Faeryl

jelinidas said:

See, here again is my problem. You did ask for opinions and feedback about some things but it seems you already had your minds made up and were just going through the motions. Where were pucking fuzzles ever talked about?? You just put them in with no discussion about it! 

And, for the record, nobody did ask for this!

Hm, let's see... on my phone so just copy/pasting instead of direct quotes, but...

Here:

"- I like the low level vs. high level maps having different purposes.  You might even think about them being drastically different.  Make one have puzzles, harder to dig up/find, fewer creatures, give more utility items.  Perhaps one requires remove trap and one doesn't"

"I wonder if you could add a sort of container within the chest... with an interactive type puzzle on it.

Maybe give it a time limit like the plague beast lord puzzle, that starts when you open it. And every wrong move cuts down your time. If you run out of time, it explodes, destroying the contents of the container.

Remove trap, while not required to complete the puzzle, might give hints, like lockpicking does for the puzzle boxes.

RT wouldn't be required to try, but having it on you would have the benefit of the hints to completion."

"An alternative to that could be some kind of mini-game sort of like the plague beast lord surgery. I don't have a very specific way it could work in mind, but it would be timed, would require a few different tools for different parts of the mechanism, and every action taken would disturb the trap a little bit more increasing chance of failure, relative to skill level and trap difficulty. Ideally a person of the appropriate skill level should be able to remove a trap in ~10 seconds with minimal risk, while for someone of insufficient skill it would take longer and have more risk, but they could still have a chance if they understand how to navigate the puzzles. By making it a puzzle we reduce the role of pure chance in the equation but still have trap difficulty and skill being a factor in how much of a handicap the player has when navigating the trap."

Those are separate posts by separate people suggesting puzzles of some sort, in the original feedback thread still located in the general section of these forums.

ZekeTerra

@Kyronix -  Did 3 more maps, this time with a guildie who likes puzzles (god forgive her).  Every time she made a mistake everyone around her, including mobiles took damage (poor cow that wandered by, but at least we have steaks for dinner now).  Up until now all the puzzles I got were the same type, move the picture squares around until you get the picture.  Did them when I was a kid, little squares on a plastic board.  Not difficult, but not fun either (now that I'm an adult).  This afternoon we got the other 2 types.  She did 2 and I did one (the one from Khaldun) which I did quite a lot during the Halloween event, trying to get the 4 SUPER RARE piece set of Titan artifacts.  Every time I failed we all took damage and then I had to use the skill again to get the puzzle board up (not like Khaldun where it came back up after you clicked ok when you failed) - a little annoying but.... 
When I solo'd the chests I got 9 items and the gem bag.  With the 2 of us we got 10 items and one didn't have a gem bag and the last 2 chests we couldn't take anything out of the chest, not that we would have because they were either cursed, or not very useable and one had the Ancient Weapon.  I have still have not seen a single Mana Phasing Orb, Named Minor Artifact (in the little green bag), forged pardons or blues, pinks or other stuff normally found in the t-chests.
We were both wearing 2k+ luck suits and the last 2 chests were both normal colored ones.  I don't really mind having to have Remove Trap on my template, but no other skill requires you to do anything but use the skill (Stealing - targeting cursor and hit target, Detect Hidden, use skill and target area, Lockpicking - use picks (or skeleton key) and target chest).  I've been playing this game for 15+ years and have always had a t-hunter on several shards in fact.  I enjoy the challenge of pulling off the mobs one at a time (when possible) and taking them down.  
IMO this change to having to do a puzzle, which you will fail several times doing it at GM skill since it's not really a game skill but a puzzle skill is not enjoyable to me.  There are several places in game to do puzzles if one is so inclined but to make anyone who wants to continue to do something that is currently not only solo-able but enjoyable and adding this "feature" changes that.

Faeryl

@Kyronix

I do actually have a question. It was stated that the higher your remove trap skill gets, the fewer hints you'll get towards completing the puzzle.

Shouldn't that honestly be the opposite? I would expect a person newer to trap removing fail more often. If someone is a Grandmaster at removing traps, wouldn't they have in theory picked up tips and tricks that would, in fact, help them to solve the puzzles easier? Shouldn't someone who has mastered the skill be getting hints to aid in completion, as opposed to someone, who in theory, has no idea what they're doing?

popps

Personally, I enjoy the Puzzles and I think their addition a great and fun one.

I MUCH MORE prefer mind games as compared to fight games....

If at all, I'd rather have Puzzle complexity REDUCE the amount of fighting needed....

That is, make the difficulty not fight related, but mind related....

Those who do not want to solve Puzzles will have their Chests while those who do not want to solve Puzzles will have their Chests just as well....

I do not see where the problem that some lament with Puzzles might be, I see none.

@Kyronix ... I would for sure like to have Remove Trap, while being engaged into Puzzles solving, NOT unhide the character, and this NEVER, not for failing moves when working on the Puzzle, nor for Reveals from the spawn, and neither fot Area spells that might fall around the Treasure Hunter.

That is, I think that the Treasure Hunter should be left in peace, well hidden, thinking and working on solving the Puzzle while the rest of the Group works fighting the Guardians that spawned....

Pawain

@Kyronix ; I do the Tribes quest when I want or have a returner that wants to Kill T Rex and Great Ape.  

I do the Puzzles to get the Lion cubs out of the cages. You can fail on those many times. Even if you remember the pattern, the next step is at best a 50% chance to fail.

The chance of losing an item is not a positive thing if the player is doing nothing wrong.  Zap them and thats it.

2 other Ideas:

1.  The Puzzles train you to GM skill. At GM skill you dont have a puzzle.  If people want a puzzle they can stop the skill at a certain point, Make +50 or whatever Skill you prefer give the big puzzles and have the same ability as GM to untrap.  (they can have more skill in other areas as a benefit to doing puzzles.

2.  The puzzles train you to GM skill.  You untrap the chest.  Take all the goodies. When the last Goodie is out, the puzzle comes up. Brought up automatically or with the skill.  Put whips as the stash found in the hidden compartment. 

Under both scenarios, There are advantages for remove trap and advantages for puzzle doers.

Most will do the puzzles just for the extra points on the template.

King_Greg

My biggest issue is that the old content should of been left as is. New content should of been added without redoing an entire system that many players still enjoyed. 

Simply add a treasure map to the Doubloons trade in, Make it a level 8 Treasure Map, random facet, and base that off your Current level 5 treasure chest you are working on test center on. 

It plays into the content you are already adding that players are currently enjoying, Keeps the old treasure maps the same (Maybe bump the loot on level 7's) And includes new content. 

Players will always complain, but they are more likely to complain about old content being changed than new content being too hard. 

I've said it before, i'll say it again. It's a retro game. New content, not completely revamped  from the ground up old content. 

Cinderella

I have to tell you I LOVE to do the puzzles on the tiger cage...
but I'm like NO to doing them on tmaps...
On the tiger cages, it usually takes me 2 or 3 tries to complete, but others in my guild can take 7 or 8 times and they get aggravated... 

(I haven't tested the tmaps yet, but will get around to it)

I understand about it being a group effort
but there is spawn to worry about, in the surrounding areas

if you have to have the puzzles...
how about adding the puzzles to the paragon chests that you get from Miasma?
cause then you could just take the chest back home to open without having to worry about other creatures while doing the puzzle. And someone who likes to do puzzles could do it for them.
make it so, that if you use a skeleton key, that you don't lose any objects if you get a wrong direction on the puzzle

================================

I have heard so many people say that, if the puzzles are left on the chests, that they will quit...
I'd hate to see so many quit cause they don't like puzzles

CovenantX

I don't mind the puzzles.  I would just like T-maps to have a reasonable loot quality (for each level, based on difficulty) so that maps aren't useless content.  

With this current update, the Loot Quality in Fel Trove maps seems reasonable so far based on my experience, but half of the maps I've done were unable to be looted.

So far, every map I've done (6) Fel Trove maps, have had at least 1 Major Artifact, some contained 2 or 3 legendaries, all brittle/antique.. but they had a chance to be good, that's all I'd like to see. -the mark has been hit (with fel-maps at least) =D

I'll test some other facets later this evening.

MissE

Mervyn said:

MissE said:

Sadly I am unable to get on test centre to actually 'test' it but from reading everyone else's feedback on the forum that you can actually have your say on, it is NOT good.  

Maybe just wait until character copy is working again before you freak out?
i’m sure it will be up again soon.

As for being able to have a say on Stratics. I can assure you there is less freedom of expression there than here. They just only allow opinions the same as yours. So you’ll never have a post removed there. You’ll be very content there in your echo chamber. 

Nothing to do with character copy, I am traveling in the outback atm in my caravan on an iffy internet connection running off my phone, and will be for the next 5 weeks.  I don't have my normal keyboard with me and redoing all key assignments on my laptop with this connection is not worth it. Even at home for me on the TEST center it is like working in clag glue as from Aussie to there is a long haul. I hope I get back before this thing is pushed through but I doubt it.

What I want to know what is the point of 'Remove Trap' if you have to do a puzzle?  Trying to work out where that fits in.

I ONLY ever do level 6 & 7 maps solo.  I HATE puzzles and if this is gonna be the norm then I am afraid that is it for me.  If I wanna do puzzles I will go to the underworld or go release lion cubs.  I do NOT wanna spend time mucking about doing them with tmaps. 

It adds nothing but a bunch of GRIND to the process, not to mention there is a 50/50 GUESS that requires no skill at all every time you make a move.  I can do those puzzles with NEVER making the wrong move twice yet it still boils down to a 50/50 guess and if you end up with DUST each time you get that GUESS wrong then that is it for me.  I have better things to do than spend 15-20mins doing a map to end up with dust. 

I have GM remove trap and GM lockpick, I should NOT fail 10 times on a puzzle which destroys stuff each 'fail' if this is actually what is happening?  ON those slide puzzles you can fail that many times or more if you guess up instead of left/right etc.  I just spent last week doing the uniting the tribes quest 6 times as I do it in a bunch once a yr as it is something that bores the crap out of me so I get it done in one hit.   The absolutely WORST part of that quest chain is those stupid puzzles.  To add them to Tmaps is one way to totally destroy that activity for me, will also result in me doing them once a yr to remind myself of how much I hate puzzles (MOST BORING THING IN THIS GAME).  As for group play it will really kill that off too.  Who the hell wants to stand around while someone does that in a group? Seriously? 

I have no issues with the level of spawn, no issues with remove trap (even though it is just another useless skill that wasn't necessary, but OK I can live with it), I have major issues with the crap loot that was evident last time as other than the odd rare deco item the loot was abysmal and you got better loot with existing maps, so hope that has improved, however if every fail on lockpick, which on some chests you can do 2-3 or even 4 times at gm lockpick and then fails on this new stupid puzzle chest rubbish then that will destroy whatever loot there is.

Right now I wish they would LEAVE IT ALONE and forget this whole thing.

MissE

Kyronix said:

jelinidas said:

Kyronix said:

As for the mobs - they are definitely more difficult at Lvl 4 and 5 in a base situation, however Lvl 3 does have a chance to get higher end mobs thrown in during the spawn.  

This is what I was talking about. Lvl 3 maps are going to be boring for seasoned treasure hunters who play SOLO. Who asked for this?? What happened to the PLAYER ideas from before you spent hours and hours coding this flop? 

Here is a question for you...Start a poll, who goes treasure as a group? I cant think of much that sounds more boring then watching one guy work a puzzle. smh

This was based on the initial discussion threads - MOST players could easily solo a Lvl 3.  Some could solo a 4 or 5.  Few could solo a 6 or 7.

With the new distribution for maps the way they are perhaps we may restrict the puzzle trap to a Lvl 5 only, and extend the explosion to a Lvl 4. Remains to be seen.

There has to be a give and take though - traps (in whatever final form they take) are a part of treasure hunting.  There's a few variables we have to work with - puzzles, explosions, Remove Trap Skill, Magic Untrap.  How they all shuffle into the final encounter remains to be seen.

Not sure what people you were listening too.  IN the past 10 years the majority of treasure hunters are SOLO.  I don't know a single person who EVER does tmapping on a regular basis that uses a group.  NONE

Sure you may do one with  group sometimes as a more RP event or with a newbie to show them, but as soon as a char is trained in treasure hunting they go SOLO.  I suggest you run a poll and actually get proper information on this.

Pawain

We did them with a group when our EM was playing with us and helping us produce the new pets.

Otherwise, I did zippy maps alone, the 20th arc alone, and did a few 5s because my carto skill is not gm. I went along for the ride some when the 20th arc was going on. And sometimes at the stable a T Hunter asked if I wanted to go along.

CovenantX

dunno, the reason I haven't done maps in groups is because the loot was always the same with or without a group...  other than that, I haven't done a 'group' T-hunt since LBR was the latest expansion... when gear didn't matter anywhere near as much as it does now.

Now that there's a difference (I haven't tested the difference yet, mind you), it might be worth doing in groups, but not mandatory.  

It'll undoubtedly result in people running multi-clients to form their own group though... more so than running with a group consisting of multiple players.    That's how a lot of the content is done tbh, especially for those playing on low-pop shards.

Pawain

Cinderella said:

I have to tell you I LOVE to do the puzzles on the tiger cage...
but I'm like NO to doing them on tmaps...
On the tiger cages, it usually takes me 2 or 3 tries to complete, but others in my guild can take 7 or 8 times and they get aggravated... 

(I haven't tested the tmaps yet, but will get around to it)

I understand about it being a group effort
but there is spawn to worry about, in the surrounding areas

if you have to have the puzzles...
how about adding the puzzles to the paragon chests that you get from Miasma?
cause then you could just take the chest back home to open without having to worry about other creatures while doing the puzzle. And someone who likes to do puzzles could do it for them.
make it so, that if you use a skeleton key, that you don't lose any objects if you get a wrong direction on the puzzle

================================

I have heard so many people say that, if the puzzles are left on the chests, that they will quit...
I'd hate to see so many quit cause they don't like puzzles

2 or 3 tries?  Come on.

What is the key.

Here is one. I marked the path with a line. I put the possible moves on the dot that comes next. Should be a 2 on the starting one.



You are saying you only have to try this 2 or 3 times?  After the second move I went the wrong way on each spot that is not 1. Did 2 wrong moves on one of the 3s.

Sadly I couldn't do the dot ones on the trapped chests at Khaldun.  I can figure out where the pieces in the slider go but not enough spacial relations skills to get them there.

Ill need a step by step guide on all but this kind.

Pawain

The one took 6 tries.

Zamot

@Kyronix , Could we get the turn in points for the level 4 and 5 to coincide with what is currently on production shards?  the lower level maps aren't that far off but the 6's and 7's are going to take a giant hit if left as is. 

Oh and the Puzzles are a bad idea.  already takes time to track down the location, kill the spawn.  Now after that I get a stinking slider puzzle.  Please if you have to put in the puzzles put it in on the lower maps not the higher.  As my Remove Trap skill goes up I should not have to solve a puzzle.  Just let me use the dang skill.  I am only begging because I just spent a long time gathering maps, as I love to do T hunting.  

Thanks

Tim

On the topic of puzzles NO.
It makes no game sense to have to have the skill to disarm the trap then do a puzzle. Especially since some people, my self included are very bad a puzzles regardless what their characters skill is. With me it's the sliding pitchers I just never have been able to do them and couldn't if my toon had 200 remove trap skill.

If you must include puzzles make it a choice thing. A player could chose to invest the skill points and try with "remove trap" or they could try the puzzle. Same penalties for failure.

Mervyn

Is it a coincidence that the people who aren’t very good at puzzles also don’t want them on T-Maps?

sounds a little self serving to me.

Pawain

Mervyn said:

Is it a coincidence that the people who aren’t very good at puzzles also don’t want them on T-Maps?

sounds a little self serving to me.

Every change you request is self serving.  Coincidence?

I want to kill your horse so UO must change the log out removal of a pet.
I dont want you to switch suits so fast so that must be changed to suit me.

MissE

Mervyn said:

Is it a coincidence that the people who aren’t very good at puzzles also don’t want them on T-Maps?

sounds a little self serving to me.

I am excellent at puzzles, I just HATE them and they have absolutely nothing to do with digging up treasure maps and it is a stupid idea to even include them.  I have GM remove trap, I shouldn't have to bugger around with a dumb puzzle that requires zero skill to do, and just requires guessing in a lot of cases.  

These are the  most mind numbingly boring puzzles and are something that should be put into stuff you do really spasmodically NOT ever damn high level TMap. 

Mervyn

Pawain said:

Mervyn said:

Is it a coincidence that the people who aren’t very good at puzzles also don’t want them on T-Maps?

sounds a little self serving to me.

Every change you request is self serving.  Coincidence?

I want to kill your horse so UO must change the log out removal of a pet.
I dont want you to switch suits so fast so that must be changed to suit me.

Yeah, that’s why I want to fix bugs.. to kill people’s horses after I kill them...
you know I normally kill the horse before I kill them..