can we have a serious discussion about the spawn and raiding situation

2

Comments

  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    Cookie said:
    popps said:

    I am sorry, but I think that games are intended to be "actively" played by players and not scripted using automated BOTs which permit to players to achieve in-game things while not being actively controlling their character.

    It defies, to my opinion, the entire concept of "playing a a game".

    Unfortunately, to my understanding, there is players who do not see Ultima Online as a game to play but, rather, as a way to make real money... so, in order to make this money making process more efficient, BOTs are used which can run on their own, without having the user have to invest any of their own time in the botted process.

    Then, the items get sold for real money or the in-game gold obtained from their in-game selling is sold for real money.

    Powerscrolls, are no different, tp my opinion, and their Monopoly, reached thanking to the large use of scripted, automated Monitoring BOTs to then raid the Champ Spawns, is used to artificially corner the market, control Powerscrolls' prices and thus fetch more gold from their sale and, for those who then sell that gold (or the powerscrolls themselves) for real money, fetch more real money from their selling.

    This, at least to my opinion, does NOT help the game but, rather, kills it considering how players have to already spend money for a monthly subscription, and often also on the UO Store with Sovereigns which also cost Real Money.... if they then need to "also" have to spend more real money to buy items or Powerscrolls that are too hard for them to get, because of mechanics and of Raiders which can easily Monitor any and all Champ Spawns thanking to the use of scripted, automated Monitoring BOTs and multi-clienting off of a single computer, eventually some players might realize how playing UO might not be worth all of this expenditure of real money and they might go play other games for less expenditure of their money.....

    And Ultima Online looses players base, of the good players, mind you, those who actually want to play the game, not exploit it for monetary gains....

    To my opinion, all of this scripted, automated Monitoring BOTs activities should be ended by the Developers with appropriate changes to the mechanics of the game and the TOS fully enforced.... because their going on actually damages UO, not helps it..... if players want to Monitor Champ Spawns, they should be forced to have to do it actually using their own in-game time, ACTIVELY controlling the characters doing such Monitoring, and not using AFK scripted, automated Monitoring BOTs and multi-clienting off of a single computer that use none or hardly any of their time at the keyboard.
    I get that this is your genuine opinion.

    My opinion is that UO is almost unplayable due to the time investment required and huge breadth of content in the game, any new player basically cannot catch up.

    My sons, playing their kids games, regularly hit their AFK scripting programs before they go to school, and leave their pc's playing for them while they are at school (Minecraft, Pet Simulator, Roblox, Beeswarm Simulator etc). Gaming progression often finds its way into real life - see the old macros that found their way into Excel spreadsheets etc - the point being - yes, everyone in the world is after more efficiency - this is not a bad thing.

    People are busy, we have real lives, many UO activities take an insane amount of time to complete, there are unnecessary timesinks built in everywhere. Opening monster corpses after you have manually opened the first 2 million, becomes a godsend when you can automate it.
    People are busy, we have real lives, many UO activities take an insane amount of time to complete, there are unnecessary timesinks built in everywhere.

    I am sorry but then, if players feel that they have to run AFK scripts to actually play a given game, this shows, at least to me, that the Developers have failed in their game Designing since the goal of game Design should be to actually have players actively play a game being at the keyboard and not running some AFK script when they do else and have that script play the game for them while they do "else" in their real life....

    A game that forces players to have to run AFK scripts in order to progress in that game, to my opinion, is not a game well Designed....

    Such AFK scripting should not be possible in the first place by the mechanics of the game (and, to my understanding, games' TOSes usually consider them not legal....), and also, games should be Designed NOT to be such a time sink as they often are.....

    Items being made too hard to be gotten, by Design, often become a motif for players to spend real money to get them, rather then a huge chunk of their in-game time and they motivate players to run AFK scripts to get those items to then sell to make real money gains.

    This is all so wrong, at least to my opinion and it shouldn't be (I think it hurts games, not help them...). And it would not happen, if items did not require such a huge expenditure of time to be optained.... if items were to be more readily obtainable, players would neither feel to have to script for them nor have to spend real money to purchase them from other players....

    Going back to Powerscrolls, for example, when the Developers added them to Treasure Chests, they should have added also 115 Powerscrolls and not stopped at 110s which make the binding for 120s from them a really futile attempts and still way requiring the digging of too many chests, in order to make a 120 off of 110s.

    For the record, it takes 12 x 110s to make a 115 and then 10 x 115 to make a 120. A total of "matching" 1,200 110s to make a 120 which it means having to find 1,200 Treasure Maps when their rate is 1 Treasure Map off of 100 corpses, dig the all of them, and be lucky enough to get all of those 110s match with one another.... clearly, all of these odds never happen thus making the ability to bind a 120 off of 110s from Treasure Maps completely a futile attempt.....

    Really, Treasure Maps should have been made spawning also 115 Powerscrolls.....

    At least, that is how I see it.
  • JackFlashUkJackFlashUk Posts: 936
    edited January 2023
    popps said:
    Cookie said:
    popps said:

    I am sorry, but I think that games are intended to be "actively" played by players and not scripted using automated BOTs which permit to players to achieve in-game things while not being actively controlling their character.

    It defies, to my opinion, the entire concept of "playing a a game".

    Unfortunately, to my understanding, there is players who do not see Ultima Online as a game to play but, rather, as a way to make real money... so, in order to make this money making process more efficient, BOTs are used which can run on their own, without having the user have to invest any of their own time in the botted process.

    Then, the items get sold for real money or the in-game gold obtained from their in-game selling is sold for real money.

    Powerscrolls, are no different, tp my opinion, and their Monopoly, reached thanking to the large use of scripted, automated Monitoring BOTs to then raid the Champ Spawns, is used to artificially corner the market, control Powerscrolls' prices and thus fetch more gold from their sale and, for those who then sell that gold (or the powerscrolls themselves) for real money, fetch more real money from their selling.

    This, at least to my opinion, does NOT help the game but, rather, kills it considering how players have to already spend money for a monthly subscription, and often also on the UO Store with Sovereigns which also cost Real Money.... if they then need to "also" have to spend more real money to buy items or Powerscrolls that are too hard for them to get, because of mechanics and of Raiders which can easily Monitor any and all Champ Spawns thanking to the use of scripted, automated Monitoring BOTs and multi-clienting off of a single computer, eventually some players might realize how playing UO might not be worth all of this expenditure of real money and they might go play other games for less expenditure of their money.....

    And Ultima Online looses players base, of the good players, mind you, those who actually want to play the game, not exploit it for monetary gains....

    To my opinion, all of this scripted, automated Monitoring BOTs activities should be ended by the Developers with appropriate changes to the mechanics of the game and the TOS fully enforced.... because their going on actually damages UO, not helps it..... if players want to Monitor Champ Spawns, they should be forced to have to do it actually using their own in-game time, ACTIVELY controlling the characters doing such Monitoring, and not using AFK scripted, automated Monitoring BOTs and multi-clienting off of a single computer that use none or hardly any of their time at the keyboard.
    I get that this is your genuine opinion.

    My opinion is that UO is almost unplayable due to the time investment required and huge breadth of content in the game, any new player basically cannot catch up.

    My sons, playing their kids games, regularly hit their AFK scripting programs before they go to school, and leave their pc's playing for them while they are at school (Minecraft, Pet Simulator, Roblox, Beeswarm Simulator etc). Gaming progression often finds its way into real life - see the old macros that found their way into Excel spreadsheets etc - the point being - yes, everyone in the world is after more efficiency - this is not a bad thing.

    People are busy, we have real lives, many UO activities take an insane amount of time to complete, there are unnecessary timesinks built in everywhere. Opening monster corpses after you have manually opened the first 2 million, becomes a godsend when you can automate it.
    People are busy, we have real lives, many UO activities take an insane amount of time to complete, there are unnecessary timesinks built in everywhere.

    I am sorry but then, if players feel that they have to run AFK scripts to actually play a given game, this shows, at least to me, that the Developers have failed in their game Designing since the goal of game Design should be to actually have players actively play a game being at the keyboard and not running some AFK script when they do else and have that script play the game for them while they do "else" in their real life....

    A game that forces players to have to run AFK scripts in order to progress in that game, to my opinion, is not a game well Designed....

    Such AFK scripting should not be possible in the first place by the mechanics of the game (and, to my understanding, games' TOSes usually consider them not legal....), and also, games should be Designed NOT to be such a time sink as they often are.....

    Items being made too hard to be gotten, by Design, often become a motif for players to spend real money to get them, rather then a huge chunk of their in-game time and they motivate players to run AFK scripts to get those items to then sell to mae real money gains.

    This is all so wrong, at least to my opinion and it shouldn't be (I think it hurts games, not help them...). And it would not happen, if items did not require such a huge expenditure of time to be optained.... if items were to be more readily obtainable, players would neither feel to have to script for them nor have to spend real money to purchase them from other players....

    At least, that is how I see it.
    WHAT??   Yet another novel quote fest that offers nothing? 

    do you solo champs Popps? have you been raided? 

    100% bet you have not, so you choose to add an opinion on yet another UO topic you have no knowledge of or experience in?

    Thanks. So useful

    On another note, do we actually have a Dev team or is this running on auto pilot, the Dev silence is deafening and has been so for a very long time.

    Maybe this is the real problem, no Dev's, no GM's no action , this is why cheating is rife.

    MESANNA WAKE UP


  • RinerRiner Posts: 371
    The idea that scripts are actively allowed to run on any shard is a bit obscene, rather they are monitoring spawns, doing events, or mining, it all has a negative impact on the game and its players. I agree content in Felucca should be on the same level as it is in Trammel, not because I believe that PVP'ers are some saving power for this game, but rather it is nice to have more, not less options. I do agree with @Yoshi that power scrolls should be shard bound which would limit t economies. Two easy to take steps would probably solve the problem though. First, limit access further on EJ accounts to Trammel, the purpose of an EJ account is to introduce someone to the game and allow them to experience it, not to be a permanent part of the environment.  This would cause both the need to pay a monthly fee to play and if someone still choose to run bots, they will have to pay for the ability. Secondly, actively ban accounts found scripting, I doubt that there is much stomach to do that, but it would eliminate the problem. The limits placed on EJ accounts for this last event were a good step in the right direction toward cleaning things up, now it's time to push it a little further. Remember well there might be some benefits to individuals having the ability to use fully functional EJ accounts really, they do little to contribute to the game beyond giving an introduction to people. They provide a very limited amount to the profits generated by the game and yet use both physical and in game resources. 

    To Cookies comment that pvp keeps this game afloat I don't have access to the figures to prove one way or the other, but I do know on Great Lakes the majority of player are not pvp players. So well, they add to the environment I don't suspect they add much to the bottom line. I don't seek to have PVP'ers removed, I do however think that it should adhere to the same rule set everyone else is supposed to follow. Which means you want to hunt someone at spawns - run your ass to the spawn and look. There is no reason that the rest of the community should be forced to make special toons to hunt bots and clean up game problems. I accept that you and your friends enjoy that type of play, but it should not be forced on everyone just to play this part of the game. This also isn't to say that any aspect of bot'ing is acceptable in Trammel, it's not. 

    Lastly, to the idea that the players base power scroll market is tapped. It might seem that way to a veteran who has all of their characters built, but not everyone is in that position. Sure, the majority of scrolls currently are probably used by pets, but there are many new or returning players who need scrolls to build characters. This might not be reflected on all shards, but I can speak for Great Lakes, and we have a good many who have started or returned in the last year or two and even if they have finished their first toon, they may want others. Not to mention starting new toons on other shards, or any other reason they want to make a new character. For these people the prices can place scrolls out of reach, so the only answer is hunting for them. 

    In the end I really hope that serious consideration is given to limiting the access to EJ accounts and looking into ways to detect bots of all types which goes beyond player reporting. 


  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    Riner said:
    The idea that scripts are actively allowed to run on any shard is a bit obscene, rather they are monitoring spawns, doing events, or mining, it all has a negative impact on the game and its players. I agree content in Felucca should be on the same level as it is in Trammel, not because I believe that PVP'ers are some saving power for this game, but rather it is nice to have more, not less options. I do agree with @ Yoshi that power scrolls should be shard bound which would limit t economies. Two easy to take steps would probably solve the problem though. First, limit access further on EJ accounts to Trammel, the purpose of an EJ account is to introduce someone to the game and allow them to experience it, not to be a permanent part of the environment.  This would cause both the need to pay a monthly fee to play and if someone still choose to run bots, they will have to pay for the ability. Secondly, actively ban accounts found scripting, I doubt that there is much stomach to do that, but it would eliminate the problem. The limits placed on EJ accounts for this last event were a good step in the right direction toward cleaning things up, now it's time to push it a little further. Remember well there might be some benefits to individuals having the ability to use fully functional EJ accounts really, they do little to contribute to the game beyond giving an introduction to people. They provide a very limited amount to the profits generated by the game and yet use both physical and in game resources. 

    To Cookies comment that pvp keeps this game afloat I don't have access to the figures to prove one way or the other, but I do know on Great Lakes the majority of player are not pvp players. So well, they add to the environment I don't suspect they add much to the bottom line. I don't seek to have PVP'ers removed, I do however think that it should adhere to the same rule set everyone else is supposed to follow. Which means you want to hunt someone at spawns - run your ass to the spawn and look. There is no reason that the rest of the community should be forced to make special toons to hunt bots and clean up game problems. I accept that you and your friends enjoy that type of play, but it should not be forced on everyone just to play this part of the game. This also isn't to say that any aspect of bot'ing is acceptable in Trammel, it's not. 

    Lastly, to the idea that the players base power scroll market is tapped. It might seem that way to a veteran who has all of their characters built, but not everyone is in that position. Sure, the majority of scrolls currently are probably used by pets, but there are many new or returning players who need scrolls to build characters. This might not be reflected on all shards, but I can speak for Great Lakes, and we have a good many who have started or returned in the last year or two and even if they have finished their first toon, they may want others. Not to mention starting new toons on other shards, or any other reason they want to make a new character. For these people the prices can place scrolls out of reach, so the only answer is hunting for them. 

    In the end I really hope that serious consideration is given to limiting the access to EJ accounts and looking into ways to detect bots of all types which goes beyond player reporting. 


    I do agree with @Yoshi that power scrolls should be shard bound which would limit t economies.

    I am of a different opinion, which it is, that Powerscrolls should not be Shard Bound and this, because I think that limiting the availability of any given items actually prompts into players the desire to engage in even more scripting not to mention spending real money to get those items which they may have been having too much a hard time getting in the game.... all things, which eventually hurt the game, not help it, IMHO....

    Monopolies, that is, "cornered markets" for in-game items, such as Shard bound Powerscrolls would be (i.e. a few, limited number of players controlling the Spawns being able to "jack up" Powerscrolls prices for all of the rest of the players) would only force all of the rest of the players not being among those few cornering that Market, to have to spend countless hours farming for the gold necessary to then purchase those Powerscrolls at a heavily "jacked up" price thanking to a cornered market because the mechanics permit it.... and we know how, engaging into mindless, repetitive farming gameplay can either further enlarge the scripting players base or, may eventualy alienate players from wanting to keep playing a game that is not bringing them fun but, rather, is being un-fun because of an alienating farming gameplay that is forced onto them in order to be able to have access to items necessary for the progression of their in-game character.

    My argument being, that while Shard Bound Powerscrolls might be good for those (few) players who eventually manage to Monopolize the spawns and thus corner the Powerscrolls market (they can get more gold for those scrolls, obviously....), it becomes very, very bad for the game itself because it forces all other players who are left out, to have to engage into mindless, repetitive farming gameplay in order to get the means to then be able to afford those Powerscrolls at "jacked up" prices because of the Monopoly permitted by the Game Design.

    What I am trying to say is, that what can be seen as good for a limited number of players who could use Shard Bound Powerscrolls to Monopolize and control the Market to "jack up" prices for Powerscrolls, the same cannot be said, at least to my opinion, for Ultima Online as a whole.

    We need to actually make items more readily available, not harder to get, if we want to fight scripting and alienating, farming repetitive gameplay which eventually looses players to Ultima Online, further reducing its players' base and its ability to get revenues for its upkeep and further development....

    I don't seek to have PVP'ers removed, I do however think that it should adhere to the same rule set everyone else is supposed to follow. Which means you want to hunt someone at spawns - run your ass to the spawn and look. There is no reason that the rest of the community should be forced to make special toons to hunt bots and clean up game problems.

    I absolutely agree, this is an issue which needs to be addressed by the Developers and which the Developers should solve.... and not have to have players have to spend countless of their in-game time to actually track down BOTted, scripted Monitoring characters....

    Not to mention, that while for a player would take a whole lot of time to track down Monitoring BOTs, to those players having to restart a downed Monitoring BOT, would take hardly any of their time... 

    That is, currently, to my opinion, playing mechanics are totally in favour of those scripting, using BOTs, and in absolute disfavour of those players actively controlling their character to play....

    To track down a Stealthing, hidden EJ used as a Monitoring BOT "free" EJ, with tracking and revealing having such a limited range and effectiveness, even at Max skill, takes forever when one needs to track a very large area, it can even become nigh to impossible if the script running the Monitoring BOT moves it around, thus forcing the player trying to locate stealthing BOTs to have to track the same locations over and over, repeatedly (because of the stealthing EJ Monitoring BOT moving around...), and all of this effort, even when a BOT is eventually tracked down, becomes useless when the player using that automated script restarts that Monitoring BOT in no time....

    To me, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that gameplay mechanics were to actually help more players running Monitoring BOTs automated scripts thus investing none of their playing time to control them to "prevent" other players to be able to play at Champ Spawns, and disadvantage more those players who, instead, "actively" control their character, "at the keyboard" in their effort to be able to play a Champ Spawn....

    And I think that, absolutely, the Developers should do something to finally end this gross imbalance which, I think, hurts the game overall helping only those few players who, this way, can control Champ Spawns.

    That is, at least, how I see it.
  • I mean ... we could go a step further and say that a real solution could possibly be to eliminate the need for powerscrolls for players. *shrugs*

    Make it universal for all skills that can go up to 120, just be able to train up to 120. Powerscrolls would then only be a pet thing. Adjust the loot tables and rewards for champ spawns to make them worth running without the pressing need for powerscrolls ... and then maybe the PKs who want to cheat their way to harassing spawners will find something else to do.

    Scripting shouldn't be acceptable or overlooked on any facet, for any reason. I know plenty of people - myself included - on Great Lakes who do their resource gathering, crafting, skill training, and event grinding as it was all intended: sitting at the computer, enjoying hours of mind numbing repetition. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's not so bad - but either way, we're in Gen Chat or Guild Chat or voice in Discord talking with friends and enjoying our time. It should NEVER fall on us, as players who pay for our accounts to play this game, to turn into vigilantes tasked with finding, stopping, and punishing scripters or BOTs because no one on the Dev Team can find a viable way to handle this problem. (Or because no one on the Dev Team are willing to find a viable way to handle this problem.)
    ~ Jennifer-Marie

    "Insanity is a naturally occurring mutation; humanity has just managed to perfect it." -- JMK [[me]]
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    I mean ... we could go a step further and say that a real solution could possibly be to eliminate the need for powerscrolls for players. *shrugs*

    Make it universal for all skills that can go up to 120, just be able to train up to 120. Powerscrolls would then only be a pet thing. Adjust the loot tables and rewards for champ spawns to make them worth running without the pressing need for powerscrolls ... and then maybe the PKs who want to cheat their way to harassing spawners will find something else to do.

    Scripting shouldn't be acceptable or overlooked on any facet, for any reason. I know plenty of people - myself included - on Great Lakes who do their resource gathering, crafting, skill training, and event grinding as it was all intended: sitting at the computer, enjoying hours of mind numbing repetition. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's not so bad - but either way, we're in Gen Chat or Guild Chat or voice in Discord talking with friends and enjoying our time. It should NEVER fall on us, as players who pay for our accounts to play this game, to turn into vigilantes tasked with finding, stopping, and punishing scripters or BOTs because no one on the Dev Team can find a viable way to handle this problem. (Or because no one on the Dev Team are willing to find a viable way to handle this problem.)
    Personally, rather then totally eliminate the need of Powerscrolls for players, I would very much prefer to see 115s be added to Treasure Chests, thus making it a more feasible possibility to bind 120s for players actually not wanting to deal with Champ Spawns in Felucca (it is basically impossible to Monitor all possible Treasure Chests locations in Felucca, they are way too many, and randomized...), as well as I would like the Developers to stop the use of these scripted, automated BOTs to Monitor Champ Spawns so easily.....
  • popps said:
    I mean ... we could go a step further and say that a real solution could possibly be to eliminate the need for powerscrolls for players. *shrugs*

    Make it universal for all skills that can go up to 120, just be able to train up to 120. Powerscrolls would then only be a pet thing. Adjust the loot tables and rewards for champ spawns to make them worth running without the pressing need for powerscrolls ... and then maybe the PKs who want to cheat their way to harassing spawners will find something else to do.

    Scripting shouldn't be acceptable or overlooked on any facet, for any reason. I know plenty of people - myself included - on Great Lakes who do their resource gathering, crafting, skill training, and event grinding as it was all intended: sitting at the computer, enjoying hours of mind numbing repetition. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's not so bad - but either way, we're in Gen Chat or Guild Chat or voice in Discord talking with friends and enjoying our time. It should NEVER fall on us, as players who pay for our accounts to play this game, to turn into vigilantes tasked with finding, stopping, and punishing scripters or BOTs because no one on the Dev Team can find a viable way to handle this problem. (Or because no one on the Dev Team are willing to find a viable way to handle this problem.)
    Personally, rather then totally eliminate the need of Powerscrolls for players, I would very much prefer to see 115s be added to Treasure Chests, thus making it a more feasible possibility to bind 120s for players actually not wanting to deal with Champ Spawns in Felucca (it is basically impossible to Monitor all possible Treasure Chests locations in Felucca, they are way too many, and randomized...), as well as I would like the Developers to stop the use of these scripted, automated BOTs to Monitor Champ Spawns so easily.....
    There you go again popps, wanting to ruin the game for others just to suit you so you have to put in NO effort.  Why not just get 115 as a 10 point bod reward, will that suit you?

    So, like I said above YOU have opinions on subject matter you have NO experience in, but just add a journal for the sake of it

    Do you solo champs with your questionable Samp?, do you have data to support any real change? do you go to find the ghost Bots with your necromage and report them?

    NO, no to everything

    Thanks, but as always your point do NOT benefit anyone but YOU, and this is why you will NEVER be heard.

    And once again you railroad other people's  posts to suit you.

    If you do NOT do champs, and are NOT affected by getting raided, WHY do you feel the need to add you comments?


  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,217
    edited January 2023
    popps said:

    For the record, it takes 12 x 110s to make a 115 and then 10 x 115 to make a 120. A total of "matching" 1,200 110s to make a 120 which it means having to find 1,200 Treasure Maps when their rate is 1 Treasure Map off of 100 corpses, dig the all of them, and be lucky enough to get all of those 110s match with one another.... clearly, all of these odds never happen thus making the ability to bind a 120 off of 110s from Treasure Maps completely a futile attempt.....

    1,200 scrolls 110 scrolls for just a single 120 PS? While it makes your argument sound really good, your math seems incorrect by a decimal point.

    (1) +15 scroll = (12) +10 scrolls
    and
    (1) +20 scroll = (10) +15 scrolls

    That means: 
    (10) +15 scrolls at (12) +10 scrolls each | aka you need to bind (12) +10 scrolls a total of 10 times 
    so 
    (12) +10 scrolls x (10) = (120) +10 scrolls needed for a +120 (1,080 scrolls less than you claim).

    I'm not saying that 120 scrolls isn't a lot of +10 scrolls but it's a huge different from 1,200 lol. It was never the intent of the Devs to have treasure hunting be the work around to getting 120 PS and nor should it. The day that happens will be the day you see bots going around scripting Treasure hunting.

    I could go further down the rabbit hole on your questionable math (like how Tmaps are easier to get than you claim) but I feel like when the first part of your equation is that far off, most of your equation falls apart. 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    popps said:
    I mean ... we could go a step further and say that a real solution could possibly be to eliminate the need for powerscrolls for players. *shrugs*

    Make it universal for all skills that can go up to 120, just be able to train up to 120. Powerscrolls would then only be a pet thing. Adjust the loot tables and rewards for champ spawns to make them worth running without the pressing need for powerscrolls ... and then maybe the PKs who want to cheat their way to harassing spawners will find something else to do.

    Scripting shouldn't be acceptable or overlooked on any facet, for any reason. I know plenty of people - myself included - on Great Lakes who do their resource gathering, crafting, skill training, and event grinding as it was all intended: sitting at the computer, enjoying hours of mind numbing repetition. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's not so bad - but either way, we're in Gen Chat or Guild Chat or voice in Discord talking with friends and enjoying our time. It should NEVER fall on us, as players who pay for our accounts to play this game, to turn into vigilantes tasked with finding, stopping, and punishing scripters or BOTs because no one on the Dev Team can find a viable way to handle this problem. (Or because no one on the Dev Team are willing to find a viable way to handle this problem.)
    Personally, rather then totally eliminate the need of Powerscrolls for players, I would very much prefer to see 115s be added to Treasure Chests, thus making it a more feasible possibility to bind 120s for players actually not wanting to deal with Champ Spawns in Felucca (it is basically impossible to Monitor all possible Treasure Chests locations in Felucca, they are way too many, and randomized...), as well as I would like the Developers to stop the use of these scripted, automated BOTs to Monitor Champ Spawns so easily.....
    There you go again popps, wanting to ruin the game for others just to suit you so you have to put in NO effort.  Why not just get 115 as a 10 point bod reward, will that suit you?

    So, like I said above YOU have opinions on subject matter you have NO experience in, but just add a journal for the sake of it

    Do you solo champs with your questionable Samp?, do you have data to support any real change? do you go to find the ghost Bots with your necromage and report them?

    NO, no to everything

    Thanks, but as always your point do NOT benefit anyone but YOU, and this is why you will NEVER be heard.

    And once again you railroad other people's  posts to suit you.

    If you do NOT do champs, and are NOT affected by getting raided, WHY do you feel the need to add you comments?


    I do not think that adding 115s to Treasure Chests would "ruin" the game for other players.

    Why ?

    Because it would still need a significant time to bind "matching" 115s gathered from Treasure Chests in order to get a 120 Powerscroll.

    Sure, it takes 10 x 115s to bind a 120 yet, if, say, a Hoard or, worse, Trove Felucca Treasure Map was to yield 1 single 115, digging up 10 of them would not guarantee necessarily finding 10 "matching" 115 so, very likely, one would need to first find (rate is 1 in 100 as loot on corpses) many more then 10 Hoard or, worse, Trove Treasure Maps and then go dig them AND fight the heavy duty spawn which they bring along.... and Hoard or Trove Treasure Maps re VERY hard to come by...

    Only a limited number of quite tough Monsters have the chance to carry Hoard Treasure Maps, and, furthermore, none of those Monsters resides on the Felucca Facet to yield (1 in 100) a Felucca Hoard Treasure Map, only Paragon Spawn yielding a Chest with a Hoard Map inside, for example Miasma, have a "chance" for that Map to be for the Felucca shard.... but it can well be instead for the Trammel, Tokuno, Eodon, Ilshenar, Malas, Ter Mur....

    That is, there is only 1 in 7 chances that the Hoard Map will be for the Felucca facet....

    Not to mention Trove Maps which only can spawn (good luck getting one with what the drop rate is....) on Allosaurus, Corgul the Soulbinder, Scalis the Enforcer,The Great Ape, Tyrannosaurus Rex of which, only Scalis the Enforcer can actually be spawned in Felucca but, usually requiring several white nets to spawn it, not mentioning the heavy duty effort necessary to kill it....

    Clearly, trying to get a Trove Treasure Map on a Felucca spawned Scalis the Enforcer would require an effort not worth it.

    But even adding 115s to Hoard Maps, not Trove Maps which would basically make it nigh to impossible to be viable, would still require, for the reasons explained before, a significant higher effort and more time as doing a Champion Spawn.

    Champion Spawns would still be a significantly faster way to have access to 120s, yet, with the addition of 115 to Treasure Maps, at least, players not wanting/being able to deal with Champion Spawns would have an alternative way other then having to pay the absurd prices which players holding those 120s often ask for, albeit, an alternative way which would be significantly more work and time demanding as doing a Champion Spawn but, still, feasible for many players.....

    I say it would be a good thing for UO, an acceptable compromise which would address the problems revolving around Powerscrolls, their prices and difficulties for many players to afford and get them.
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,220
    Riner said:

    To Cookies comment that pvp keeps this game afloat I don't have access to the figures to prove one way or the other, but I do know on Great Lakes the majority of player are not pvp players.

    Lastly, to the idea that the players base power scroll market is tapped. It might seem that way to a veteran who has all of their characters built, but not everyone is in that position. Sure, the majority of scrolls currently are probably used by pets, but there are many new or returning players who need scrolls to build characters. This might not be reflected on all shards, but I can speak for Great Lakes, and we have a good many who have started or returned in the last year or two and even if they have finished their first toon, they may want others. Not to mention starting new toons on other shards, or any other reason they want to make a new character. For these people the prices can place scrolls out of reach, so the only answer is hunting for them. 

    Just peeking in to make a couple quick points.

    I've played both pvper and pvmer and people that haven't experienced both just can't understand the importance each has to one another. Pvmers think they could care less about Pvp but they are and always have been the ones buying that right piece of equipment for insane amounts of gold. Without Pvp farming would be a lot less fun and far less profitable. We all work hand in hand to make this game happen. 

    I agree with most of that last part with the exception of having to hunt for them. For instance, i cannot stand shadowguard so i will not do it, ever again. I farm things i do enjoy until i can buy whatever i need that shadowguard provides. 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    keven2002 said:
    popps said:

    For the record, it takes 12 x 110s to make a 115 and then 10 x 115 to make a 120. A total of "matching" 1,200 110s to make a 120 which it means having to find 1,200 Treasure Maps when their rate is 1 Treasure Map off of 100 corpses, dig the all of them, and be lucky enough to get all of those 110s match with one another.... clearly, all of these odds never happen thus making the ability to bind a 120 off of 110s from Treasure Maps completely a futile attempt.....

    1,200 scrolls 110 scrolls for just a single 120 PS? While it makes your argument sound really good, your math seems incorrect by a decimal point.

    (1) +15 scroll = (12) +10 scrolls
    and
    (1) +20 scroll = (10) +15 scrolls

    That means: 
    (10) +15 scrolls at (12) +10 scrolls each | aka you need to bind (12) +10 scrolls a total of 10 times 
    so 
    (12) +10 scrolls x (10) = (120) +10 scrolls needed for a +120 (1,080 scrolls less than you claim).

    I'm not saying that 120 scrolls isn't a lot of +10 scrolls but it's a huge different from 1,200 lol. It was never the intent of the Devs to have treasure hunting be the work around to getting 120 PS and nor should it. The day that happens will be the day you see bots going around scripting Treasure hunting.

    I could go further down the rabbit hole on your questionable math (like how Tmaps are easier to get than you claim) but I feel like when the first part of your equation is that far off, most of your equation falls apart. 
    Meh, I did not check the post before posting.... sorry about it.

    Yet,  "only" 120 x 110s rather then 1,200 x 110s does not make it anywhere more feasible since it still means a lot more of 120 Treasure Maps to be found and digged in order to get 120 "matching" 110s......

    It was never the intent of the Devs to have treasure hunting be the work around to getting 120 PS and nor should it. 

    I think, instead, that it should be, and for a number of very good reasons which I have been trying to explain making it better for Ultima Online as a whole.

    Permitting to a limited number of just a few players to "corner" the market for items, only benefits those few, limited number of players, and promotes, to my opinion, the use of scripted BOTs and, worse, the chance to then see players trying to monetize real money from them, either by selling those items themselves for real money, or by selling the in-game gold obtained by the in-game sale of those items sold for "jacked up" high prices, thanking to that "cornered" market permitted by the game mechanics.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited January 2023
    @popps you want them to ban the scout bots AND not have the minister of trade bark location of champs?
    okay fine then you all can go back to searching for IDOCs manually also and spend your time roaming around the land 24/7 just for information. 
    And have them delete vendor search too so you have to manually check every item on every vendor…

    Scripting third party websites had the monopoly on vender searching with bots so they gave vendor search to all
    IDOC scripters who had bots search for IDOCs had the monopoly so they gave IDOC locations to all

    fair solution is to give working champ spawn locations to all by minister of trade

    i don’t need advantage in game of knowing where to raid for free power scrolls but I get special privilege access when it’s not me who needs it, I am already rich, give the information to all, and those who need it most.”
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    Yoshi said:
    “ @ popps you want them to ban the scout bots AND not have the minister of trade bark location of champs?
    okay fine then you all can go back to searching for IDOCs manually also and spend your time roaming around the land 24/7 just for information. 
    And have them delete vendor search too so you have to manually check every item on every vendor…

    Scripting third party websites had the monopoly on vender searching with bots so they gave vendor search to all
    IDOC scripters who had bots search for IDOCs had the monopoly so they gave IDOC locations to all

    fair solution is to give working champ spawn locations to all by minister of trade

    i don’t need advantage in game of knowing where to raid for free power scrolls but I get special privilege access when it’s not me who needs it, I am already rich, give the information to all, and those who need it most.”
    I think that the root of the problem is still not addressing the issue of scripting once and for all...

    That is, the use for Ultima Online players of non authorized Third Party utilities for their UO gameplay....

    Players scripted for resources gathering ? Resources were made randomized (which affected the most the players who did not script, not the scripters...).

    And, as you mentioned, for IDOCs the Trade Ministers made scripting for IDOCs unnecessary.

    Vendor search, though, is a different issue and, besides, it does not cross out scripting....

    Vendor search has made it possible to ALL players to sell their items, not just a few in Luna or Malls.... and it has not cleared out the use of scripts at all since, now, we have BOTs searching VS for good deals to then go buy them cheap for resell purposes....

    What I would like to see is, having UO get rid for good of the ability for UO players to use unauthorized Third Party utilities to script, entirely, and I have not a problem in seeing IDOCs go back to "manually" looking for them, no more Trade Ministers holding out their locations....and then see Resources going back to being static, no longer being randomized, and, of course, Champ Spawn requiring "manual" checking out, one by one, whether they may or not be being spawned...

    No more scripting, for nothing in UO.

    This, is what I would like to see.

    Having Trade Ministers to yell the location of Champ Spawns being worked on, equals to having any and all Champ Spawns be raided 100% (or very close to...) thus depriving UO players of the chance of working a Champ Spawn without getting raided.

    Sure, that is basically what is happening now with automated, scripted BOTs on multiclienting computers checking pretty much all Champ Spawns and then reporting to some Discord Channel or other places where then players gather the info to then go raid those spawns.

    The difference, though, is that what is going on now is, to my understanding, against the TOS.....

    When at least players can have a reasonable chance to work a Champ Spawn without being raided, this means that more powerscrolls can enter the market thus contributing to maintaining their prices at more reasonable levels which all of the rest of the players can more reasonably afford with less alienating farming required to be able to afford them.

    The change which you instead propose, would make, perhaps even more then now with scripting going on, any and all Champ Spawns to be highly realistically be raided thus helping further out those few PvP Guilds maintaining a Monopoly of them, to corner their market and artificially inflate PS prices up to figures which would then require far too much alienating farming for all of the rest of the players in order to be able to afford their purchase.

    Farming "burns out" players.... some resort to scripting (which is bad by itself) and those who don't, eventually may loose interest in the game ending up getting "burnt out" by so much alienating farming, and migrate to play other games.... either way, it is a loss for Ultima Online as a whole....

    And where does all this bad come from ? Game mechanics permitting to a limited few players, to "corner" the market for certain items necessary for in-game progression like, for example, Powerscrolls.

    I am sorry but, while I can agree and even support your efforts to have a "better" PvP in Ultima Online, I have to say that on wanting Champ Spawns being "worked on" to be "advertised" by a NPC like Trade Ministers do for IDOCs, this would only worsen the problem for the grandest majority of UO players and to the benefit of only a few UO players and would be, eventually, much worse for UO as a whole for the reasons I have tried to explain.....

    At least, that is the way I see it.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited January 2023
    popps said: I think that the root of the problem is still not addressing the issue of scripting once and for all...
    That is, the use for Ultima Online players of non authorized Third Party utilities for their UO gameplay....


    Having Trade Ministers to yell the location of Champ Spawns being worked on, equals to having any and all Champ Spawns be raided 100% (or very close to...) thus depriving UO players of the chance of working a Champ Spawn without getting raided.



    "causes of scripting and non authorised utilities:

    why is anyone going to manually walk around 24/7 just for information, it's boring... that is a cause of scripting, i do it sometimes, but can't possibly get enough players to do it 24/7.

    same with other third party programs, reason a whole other client was made is because bugs stopped getting fixed on Classic Client and people wanted to play classic client without the bugs and without the movement speed handicap compared to EC.

    so by fixing bugs AND making robotic tasks unnecessary, they would indeed be addressing the issue of scripting and non authorised third party utilities - by eliminating the demand/requirement for them.

    As for 100% of them being raided, what happened with the treasures of wildfire champ and treasures of deceit? was that raided 100% of the time? no - there were too many blues banded together. So instead the blues can band together easily this way, like they do with Krampus.
    Champ spawns i am sure were never supposed to be solo- able, it's just power creep that has made them easily solo. "
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • popps said:
    popps said:
    I mean ... we could go a step further and say that a real solution could possibly be to eliminate the need for powerscrolls for players. *shrugs*

    Make it universal for all skills that can go up to 120, just be able to train up to 120. Powerscrolls would then only be a pet thing. Adjust the loot tables and rewards for champ spawns to make them worth running without the pressing need for powerscrolls ... and then maybe the PKs who want to cheat their way to harassing spawners will find something else to do.

    Scripting shouldn't be acceptable or overlooked on any facet, for any reason. I know plenty of people - myself included - on Great Lakes who do their resource gathering, crafting, skill training, and event grinding as it was all intended: sitting at the computer, enjoying hours of mind numbing repetition. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's not so bad - but either way, we're in Gen Chat or Guild Chat or voice in Discord talking with friends and enjoying our time. It should NEVER fall on us, as players who pay for our accounts to play this game, to turn into vigilantes tasked with finding, stopping, and punishing scripters or BOTs because no one on the Dev Team can find a viable way to handle this problem. (Or because no one on the Dev Team are willing to find a viable way to handle this problem.)
    Personally, rather then totally eliminate the need of Powerscrolls for players, I would very much prefer to see 115s be added to Treasure Chests, thus making it a more feasible possibility to bind 120s for players actually not wanting to deal with Champ Spawns in Felucca (it is basically impossible to Monitor all possible Treasure Chests locations in Felucca, they are way too many, and randomized...), as well as I would like the Developers to stop the use of these scripted, automated BOTs to Monitor Champ Spawns so easily.....
    There you go again popps, wanting to ruin the game for others just to suit you so you have to put in NO effort.  Why not just get 115 as a 10 point bod reward, will that suit you?

    So, like I said above YOU have opinions on subject matter you have NO experience in, but just add a journal for the sake of it

    Do you solo champs with your questionable Samp?, do you have data to support any real change? do you go to find the ghost Bots with your necromage and report them?

    NO, no to everything

    Thanks, but as always your point do NOT benefit anyone but YOU, and this is why you will NEVER be heard.

    And once again you railroad other people's  posts to suit you.

    If you do NOT do champs, and are NOT affected by getting raided, WHY do you feel the need to add you comments?


    I do not think that adding 115s to Treasure Chests would "ruin" the game for other players.

    Why ?

    Because it would still need a significant time to bind "matching" 115s gathered from Treasure Chests in order to get a 120 Powerscroll.

    Sure, it takes 10 x 115s to bind a 120 yet, if, say, a Hoard or, worse, Trove Felucca Treasure Map was to yield 1 single 115, digging up 10 of them would not guarantee necessarily finding 10 "matching" 115 so, very likely, one would need to first find (rate is 1 in 100 as loot on corpses) many more then 10 Hoard or, worse, Trove Treasure Maps and then go dig them AND fight the heavy duty spawn which they bring along.... and Hoard or Trove Treasure Maps re VERY hard to come by...

    Only a limited number of quite tough Monsters have the chance to carry Hoard Treasure Maps, and, furthermore, none of those Monsters resides on the Felucca Facet to yield (1 in 100) a Felucca Hoard Treasure Map, only Paragon Spawn yielding a Chest with a Hoard Map inside, for example Miasma, have a "chance" for that Map to be for the Felucca shard.... but it can well be instead for the Trammel, Tokuno, Eodon, Ilshenar, Malas, Ter Mur....

    That is, there is only 1 in 7 chances that the Hoard Map will be for the Felucca facet....

    Not to mention Trove Maps which only can spawn (good luck getting one with what the drop rate is....) on Allosaurus, Corgul the Soulbinder, Scalis the Enforcer,The Great Ape, Tyrannosaurus Rex of which, only Scalis the Enforcer can actually be spawned in Felucca but, usually requiring several white nets to spawn it, not mentioning the heavy duty effort necessary to kill it....

    Clearly, trying to get a Trove Treasure Map on a Felucca spawned Scalis the Enforcer would require an effort not worth it.

    But even adding 115s to Hoard Maps, not Trove Maps which would basically make it nigh to impossible to be viable, would still require, for the reasons explained before, a significant higher effort and more time as doing a Champion Spawn.

    Champion Spawns would still be a significantly faster way to have access to 120s, yet, with the addition of 115 to Treasure Maps, at least, players not wanting/being able to deal with Champion Spawns would have an alternative way other then having to pay the absurd prices which players holding those 120s often ask for, albeit, an alternative way which would be significantly more work and time demanding as doing a Champion Spawn but, still, feasible for many players.....

    I say it would be a good thing for UO, an acceptable compromise which would address the problems revolving around Powerscrolls, their prices and difficulties for many players to afford and get them.
    how many champs have YOU sol's please?

    Stop deflecting and answer my question

    otherwise how can you be in any position to question champ spawns?

    And for your info, I have over 600 high level t maps ready to go, so I could farm 115 scrolls easily with NO risk

    so ,no, its a stupid idea

    people would script the crap out of Miasma to get the maps and then farm the chests for the scrolls, would be EASY to do, just like YOU want, easy

    So STOP with the input as you know NOTHING about champs and will just get this locked when you wind everyone up

    This is Not your post and you have NO knowledge of the subject matter, just like most of the posts you invade with you complete UO ignorance 
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,220
    I have soloed quite a number of ATL spawns during "primetime" with my only competition being occasional blue pvmers that want it for themselves. 

    Most of these bot cams are only effective when there are enough logged in and want to do the work. 

    I don't see a drastic issue. 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    Yoshi said:
    popps said: I think that the root of the problem is still not addressing the issue of scripting once and for all...
    That is, the use for Ultima Online players of non authorized Third Party utilities for their UO gameplay....


    Having Trade Ministers to yell the location of Champ Spawns being worked on, equals to having any and all Champ Spawns be raided 100% (or very close to...) thus depriving UO players of the chance of working a Champ Spawn without getting raided.



    "causes of scripting and non authorised utilities:

    why is anyone going to manually walk around 24/7 just for information, it's boring... that is a cause of scripting, i do it sometimes, but can't possibly get enough players to do it 24/7.

    same with other third party programs, reason a whole other client was made is because bugs stopped getting fixed on Classic Client and people wanted to play classic client without the bugs and without the movement speed handicap compared to EC.

    so by fixing bugs AND making robotic tasks unnecessary, they would indeed be addressing the issue of scripting and non authorised third party utilities - by eliminating the demand/requirement for them.

    As for 100% of them being raided, what happened with the treasures of wildfire champ and treasures of deceit? was that raided 100% of the time? no - there were too many blues banded together. So instead the blues can band together easily this way, like they do with Krampus.
    Champ spawns i am sure were never supposed to be solo- able, it's just power creep that has made them easily solo. "
    PvP and PvM are 2 entirely different cups of tea requiring entirely different templates, gear and all that.

    Therefore, players accostumed to play PvM are no good when they need to deal with PvP while, instead, players accostumed to PvP are used and well versed in watching the PvM Spawn and fight fellow players at the same one time....

    What I am trying to say is, that pretending that PvM players were to deal with experienced PvP players has never worked in UO and will never work, expecting for it to work, to my opinion, is flat out pointless.

    Now, different it is, when there were to be a group of PvM players fighting a spawn being "guarded" by a group of PvP players there specifically to deal with raiders which already happens, but is , for the most part, limited to Guilds' wars whereas a Guild does a spawn adding PvP protectors against raiders.

    As we know, though, this only happens rarely in UO given that most players prefer to play alone for number of reasons which infact helped the development of more effective PvM templates fully capable of "Solo" playing even the most difficult Monsters.

    Powerscrolls were added in 2002 with Publish 16 and since then, they have steadily been going towards players soloing them, NOT grouping up to handle Champion Spawns being raided.

    To want, after 20 Years from their addition, to "enforce" a group play with PvMers and PvPers assorted when clearly players' gameplay has instead gone, steadily, towards the opposite direction, is like wanting to swim against tide, and also against a VERY strong one....

    Players, in UO, have increasingly gone towards solo play for reasons, good reasons, and pretending not to see this, at least to my impression, would do no good to the game.

    We can have NPCs advertise Champion Spawns being spawned as much as we want but this, will NOT increase the amound of PvP, to my opinion, but will, instead, simply reduce the number of Champion Spawns being done and, consequently, the amount of Powerscrolls being added to the game thus increasing their price artificially because of a cornered markets by those few PvP players/Guilds who will more effectively control the Champion Spawns.

    I can understand that your suggestion might be motivated by increasing the chances of conflict to have more PvP take place in UO, but we have had 20+ Years to see how this will NOT work....

    With your suggestion implemented, to my opinion, we won't see more PvP happen but, instead, we will see less Champion Spawns being done which will result in Powerscrolls prices being jacked up even further due to a cornered market by a limited number of dominating PvP players which will further loose players to UO because having to engage into endless, alienating farming in order to afford extremely high Powerscroll prices, is no fun.....

    Sorry for the harsh reality call, but if most people in UO do NOT want to deal with PvP, there is nothing which can be done to "force" them to do it.... players would more likely choose to leave the game and go play elsewhere, has it has happened over these past Years looking at what UO players base is as compared to the past times.....

    To my opinion, Powerscrolls should be made MORE readily available and not more SCARCE as your suggestion would end up making them....

    That is why I insist wanting 115s added to Treasure Maps chests.....
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,217
    edited January 2023
    popps said:
    keven2002 said:
    popps said:

    For the record, it takes 12 x 110s to make a 115 and then 10 x 115 to make a 120. A total of "matching" 1,200 110s to make a 120 which it means having to find 1,200 Treasure Maps when their rate is 1 Treasure Map off of 100 corpses, dig the all of them, and be lucky enough to get all of those 110s match with one another.... clearly, all of these odds never happen thus making the ability to bind a 120 off of 110s from Treasure Maps completely a futile attempt.....

    1,200 scrolls 110 scrolls for just a single 120 PS? While it makes your argument sound really good, your math seems incorrect by a decimal point.

    (1) +15 scroll = (12) +10 scrolls
    and
    (1) +20 scroll = (10) +15 scrolls

    That means: 
    (10) +15 scrolls at (12) +10 scrolls each | aka you need to bind (12) +10 scrolls a total of 10 times 
    so 
    (12) +10 scrolls x (10) = (120) +10 scrolls needed for a +120 (1,080 scrolls less than you claim).

    I'm not saying that 120 scrolls isn't a lot of +10 scrolls but it's a huge different from 1,200 lol. It was never the intent of the Devs to have treasure hunting be the work around to getting 120 PS and nor should it. The day that happens will be the day you see bots going around scripting Treasure hunting.

    I could go further down the rabbit hole on your questionable math (like how Tmaps are easier to get than you claim) but I feel like when the first part of your equation is that far off, most of your equation falls apart. 
    Meh, I did not check the post before posting.... sorry about it.

    Yet,  "only" 120 x 110s rather then 1,200 x 110s does not make it anywhere more feasible since it still means a lot more of 120 Treasure Maps to be found and digged in order to get 120 "matching" 110s......


    If you didn't write novels and go down multiple rabbit holes, you probably wouldn't have this issue of checking your post because there wouldn't be 8 paragraphs to re-read. Good to know though that you aren't actually thinking about what you are writing.

    Have you actually ever played a T Hunter in Fel? Have you ever actually done a spawn? You paint this picture of like 1 in a million odds of getting a single power scroll from a chest that is another long shot to get a map for. If I was new and checking out these boards, I might actually believe that it was impossible to get power scrolls. I decided to log onto my T-hunter just for kicks before writing this and I've confirmed that things still work fine. 

    Here is the reality of the situation. I dug up 2 cache level maps (attainment of maps is well documented in many other threads) that took me all of 15min total to get the coords for both maps (Davies Locker), recall to a spot near first coords and run to the coords, dig up the chest, kill the spawn (cache spawn is quite easy), go to second coords, rinse/repeat, recall back to first set to remove trap loot, and recall back to second set to rinse/repeat. I repeat it took me FIFTEEN MINUTES to do 2 maps (I wasn't really rushing either) and I walked away with 5 powerscrolls. 



    Sure there are different professions that give different scrolls and doing TMaps alone won't get you where you want to be but you keep trying to act like Champ spawns allow people to pick the scrolls they get, which is incorrect because otherwise I wouldn't have 45 peacemaking 110s laying around...they would be all tactics or resist. Generally speaking 110s are what is dropped during a champ spawn with very few 115s and almost no 120s and you don't get to pick any of that. At least with a chest I can narrow down the skills.

    Bottom line is that THunting Fel chests for power scrolls is a fraction of the risk which means a fraction of the reward (ie no 115 / 120s). If we were able to get 115 scrolls from chests, people would chain treasure chests all day long because it would take you less time to get the same if not better rewards. 

    Luckily most people and the Devs know that you post way more than you actually play so they won't bother with your half baked ideas that lack proper thought or experience on the matter.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    I do not think that adding 115s to Treasure Chests would "ruin" the game for other players.

    Why ?

    Because it would still need a significant time to bind "matching" 115s gathered from Treasure Chests in order to get a 120 Powerscroll.

    Sure, it takes 10 x 115s to bind a 120 yet, if, say, a Hoard or, worse, Trove Felucca Treasure Map was to yield 1 single 115, digging up 10 of them would not guarantee necessarily finding 10 "matching" 115 so, very likely, one would need to first find (rate is 1 in 100 as loot on corpses) many more then 10 Hoard or, worse, Trove Treasure Maps and then go dig them AND fight the heavy duty spawn which they bring along.... and Hoard or Trove Treasure Maps re VERY hard to come by...

    Only a limited number of quite tough Monsters have the chance to carry Hoard Treasure Maps, and, furthermore, none of those Monsters resides on the Felucca Facet to yield (1 in 100) a Felucca Hoard Treasure Map, only Paragon Spawn yielding a Chest with a Hoard Map inside, for example Miasma, have a "chance" for that Map to be for the Felucca shard.... but it can well be instead for the Trammel, Tokuno, Eodon, Ilshenar, Malas, Ter Mur....

    That is, there is only 1 in 7 chances that the Hoard Map will be for the Felucca facet....

    Not to mention Trove Maps which only can spawn (good luck getting one with what the drop rate is....) on Allosaurus, Corgul the Soulbinder, Scalis the Enforcer,The Great Ape, Tyrannosaurus Rex of which, only Scalis the Enforcer can actually be spawned in Felucca but, usually requiring several white nets to spawn it, not mentioning the heavy duty effort necessary to kill it....

    Clearly, trying to get a Trove Treasure Map on a Felucca spawned Scalis the Enforcer would require an effort not worth it.

    But even adding 115s to Hoard Maps, not Trove Maps which would basically make it nigh to impossible to be viable, would still require, for the reasons explained before, a significant higher effort and more time as doing a Champion Spawn.

    Champion Spawns would still be a significantly faster way to have access to 120s, yet, with the addition of 115 to Treasure Maps, at least, players not wanting/being able to deal with Champion Spawns would have an alternative way other then having to pay the absurd prices which players holding those 120s often ask for, albeit, an alternative way which would be significantly more work and time demanding as doing a Champion Spawn but, still, feasible for many players.....

    I say it would be a good thing for UO, an acceptable compromise which would address the problems revolving around Powerscrolls, their prices and difficulties for many players to afford and get them.
    how many champs have YOU sol's please?

    Stop deflecting and answer my question

    otherwise how can you be in any position to question champ spawns?

    And for your info, I have over 600 high level t maps ready to go, so I could farm 115 scrolls easily with NO risk

    so ,no, its a stupid idea

    people would script the crap out of Miasma to get the maps and then farm the chests for the scrolls, would be EASY to do, just like YOU want, easy

    So STOP with the input as you know NOTHING about champs and will just get this locked when you wind everyone up

    This is Not your post and you have NO knowledge of the subject matter, just like most of the posts you invade with you complete UO ignorance 
    people would script the crap out of Miasma to get the maps and then farm the chests for the scrolls, would be EASY to do, just like YOU want, easy

    Sure, players might "try" to farm Miasma (they already do, for that matter...) but there is only 1 Miasma, and only a chance to get 1 Hoard Felucca Map out of 7 so, it would take a lot of time to gather a sufficient number of Hoard Maps which will need to then be searched, digged, and the heavy duty spawns fought, to yield 10 matching 115s that the player could bind into a 120....

    A whole lot MORE time as compared to just doing a Champion Spawn which would still remain the most efficient way to get 120s.....

    But, at least, players would have a feasible, albeit a more time consuming one, way to get 120 Powerscrolls other then with Champion Spawns thus preventing their market being cornered and their prices being jacked up with all bad that this means for Ultima Online as a whole as I have been trying to explain.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    Urge said:
    I have soloed quite a number of ATL spawns during "primetime" with my only competition being occasional blue pvmers that want it for themselves. 

    Most of these bot cams are only effective when there are enough logged in and want to do the work. 

    I don't see a drastic issue. 
    I suspect strongly, that your findings would change for the worse, if, as Yoshi suggested, a NPC was added to "advertise" Champion Spawns being worked on like Trade Ministers do with IDOCs....

    Then, any and all PvPers just logging in for quick few minutes play would hit that Spawn just for some quick action without the hassle of having to check the Discord channel or whatever source they gather their info from to know what Spawn is being worked on to then raid it which would still require computers being online with BOTs running to gather the intelligence....

    Champion Spawns would then be raided, to my opinion, 100% of the times.
  • JackFlashUkJackFlashUk Posts: 936
    edited January 2023
    POPPS. STOP DEFLECTING AND IGNORING MY QUESTION

    DO YOU ACTUALLY SOLO CHAMPS?????????

    I am so glad nobody listens to you. The reason why this game is in such a mess is because of stupid suggestion and the lack of action against cheats

    Champs can be solo'd and are done so on all shards.  Yes people get raided, it's just the nature of the beast. 
    just because YOU cant, and non-one wants you to join them  you want it all changed to suit you

    Pack it in Popps, just stop.  You have no knowledge of champs and very little knowledge of this game in general. Yet you have opinions on EVERYTHING

    IDOCS were ruined because of players crying and lack of any action against cheats. They are multi boxed and scripted even worse now with little reward for others after they swarm through the barrels as one. A complete game style ruined by loud mouth spammers and scripters and stupid resolutions from the Dev team. If you have your way then champs will be ruined to 

    Just stick to tram, you have NO knowledge of this subject and should NOT comment on it

    But you will keep on quoting and firing out drivel. And do not answers direst question from other people.

    Just like the last post, I challenged you to answer a question and you hide for a week, then start up on another post.


     WHY??????







  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,217
    POPPS. STOP DEFLECTING AND IGNORING MY QUESTION

    DO YOU ACTUALLY SOLO CHAMPS?????????



    It's obvious he doesn't. It's also becoming apparent that he doesn't even do Fel Tmaps given his severe lack of knowledge on everything regarding them. It's been proven several times that he doesn't actually log in half the time to do a simple check himself before he posts his questions. I'm surprised we didn't see more "why can't thieves steal archlich drops?" threads from him during the last event.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    keven2002 said:
    popps said:
    keven2002 said:
    popps said:

    For the record, it takes 12 x 110s to make a 115 and then 10 x 115 to make a 120. A total of "matching" 1,200 110s to make a 120 which it means having to find 1,200 Treasure Maps when their rate is 1 Treasure Map off of 100 corpses, dig the all of them, and be lucky enough to get all of those 110s match with one another.... clearly, all of these odds never happen thus making the ability to bind a 120 off of 110s from Treasure Maps completely a futile attempt.....

    1,200 scrolls 110 scrolls for just a single 120 PS? While it makes your argument sound really good, your math seems incorrect by a decimal point.

    (1) +15 scroll = (12) +10 scrolls
    and
    (1) +20 scroll = (10) +15 scrolls

    That means: 
    (10) +15 scrolls at (12) +10 scrolls each | aka you need to bind (12) +10 scrolls a total of 10 times 
    so 
    (12) +10 scrolls x (10) = (120) +10 scrolls needed for a +120 (1,080 scrolls less than you claim).

    I'm not saying that 120 scrolls isn't a lot of +10 scrolls but it's a huge different from 1,200 lol. It was never the intent of the Devs to have treasure hunting be the work around to getting 120 PS and nor should it. The day that happens will be the day you see bots going around scripting Treasure hunting.

    I could go further down the rabbit hole on your questionable math (like how Tmaps are easier to get than you claim) but I feel like when the first part of your equation is that far off, most of your equation falls apart. 
    Meh, I did not check the post before posting.... sorry about it.

    Yet,  "only" 120 x 110s rather then 1,200 x 110s does not make it anywhere more feasible since it still means a lot more of 120 Treasure Maps to be found and digged in order to get 120 "matching" 110s......


    If you didn't write novels and go down multiple rabbit holes, you probably wouldn't have this issue of checking your post because there wouldn't be 8 paragraphs to re-read. Good to know though that you aren't actually thinking about what you are writing.

    Have you actually ever played a T Hunter in Fel? Have you ever actually done a spawn? You paint this picture of like 1 in a million odds of getting a single power scroll from a chest that is another long shot to get a map for. If I was new and checking out these boards, I might actually believe that it was impossible to get power scrolls. I decided to log onto my T-hunter just for kicks before writing this and I've confirmed that things still work fine. 

    Here is the reality of the situation. I dug up 2 cache level maps (attainment of maps is well documented in many other threads) that took me all of 15min total to get the coords for both maps (Davies Locker), recall to a spot near first coords and run to the coords, dig up the chest, kill the spawn (cache spawn is quite easy), go to second coords, rinse/repeat, recall back to first set to remove trap loot, and recall back to second set to rinse/repeat. I repeat it took me FIFTEEN MINUTES to do 2 maps (I wasn't really rushing either) and I walked away with 5 powerscrolls. 



    Sure there are different professions that give different scrolls and doing TMaps alone won't get you where you want to be but you keep trying to act like Champ spawns allow people to pick the scrolls they get, which is incorrect because otherwise I wouldn't have 45 peacemaking 110s laying around...they would be all tactics or resist. Generally speaking 110s are what is dropped during a champ spawn with very few 115s and almost no 120s and you don't get to pick any of that. At least with a chest I can narrow down the skills.

    Bottom line is that THunting Fel chests for power scrolls is a fraction of the risk which means a fraction of the reward (ie no 115 / 120s). If we were able to get 115 scrolls from chests, people would chain treasure chests all day long because it would take you less time to get the same if not better rewards. 

    Luckily most people and the Devs know that you post way more than you actually play so they won't bother with your half baked ideas that lack proper thought or experience on the matter.
    Here is the reality of the situation. I dug up 2 cache level maps (attainment of maps is well documented in many other threads) that took me all of 15min total to get the coords for both maps (Davies Locker), recall to a spot near first coords and run to the coords, dig up the chest, kill the spawn (cache spawn is quite easy), go to second coords, rinse/repeat, recall back to first set to remove trap loot, and recall back to second set to rinse/repeat.

    The spawn for Cache Maps is considerably easier as compared to that from Hoard Maps which, consequentially, require more time to be dealt with.

    Furthermore, you only refer to your time to get to find the Chest location, fight the spawn and dig it up. But Treasure Maps need also to be found and their spawn rate, that I know of, is 1 in 100 corpses....

    So, if a 115 Powerscroll was to be added to Hoard Treasure Maps, the time to then gather a single 115 scroll would be considerably higher, all things considered....

    Want to compare that with the MUCH shorter time it takes to get a Champion Spawn done solo (when unraided) which yields up to 12 Powerscrolls that can even be multiple 115s/120s not to mention when doing it in Khaldun makes it so that 4 out of the 12 PS will be 120, guaranteed ?

    I have read of players bragging to be able to do a Champion Spawn solo, from start to finish, in like 4-5 minutes.... and they can possibly yield multiple 120s, 115s within those 12 Powerscrolls...

    Say what you want but, to my viewing, in NO way even adding a 115 Powerscroll to Hoard Treasure Maps, would make it an "efficient" alternate way to getting 120s other then doing Champion Spawns....

    Yes, it would make it possible and feasible to bind 115s into 120s in a way other then doing a Champion Spawn but, STILL, with a great expenditure of time and effort in no way comparable to the quickness and fastness of getting 12 Powerscrolls when doing Champion Spawns, if unraided.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    edited January 2023
    POPPS. STOP DEFLECTING AND IGNORING MY QUESTION

    DO YOU ACTUALLY SOLO CHAMPS?????????

    I am so glad nobody listens to you. The reason why this game is in such a mess is because of stupid suggestion and the lack of action against cheats

    Champs can be solo'd and are done so on all shards.  Yes people get raided, it's just the nature of the beast. 
    just because YOU cant, and non-one wants you to join them  you want it all changed to suit you

    Pack it in Popps, just stop.  You have no knowledge of champs and very little knowledge of this game in general. Yet you have opinions on EVERYTHING

    IDOCS were ruined because of players crying and lack of any action against cheats. They are multi boxed and scripted even worse now with little reward for others after they swarm through the barrels as one. A complete game style ruined by loud mouth spammers and scripters and stupid resolutions from the Dev team. If you have your way then champs will be ruined to 

    Just stick to tram, you have NO knowledge of this subject and should NOT comment on it

    But you will keep on quoting and firing out drivel. And do not answers direst question from other people.

    Just like the last post, I challenged you to answer a question and you hide for a week, then start up on another post.


     WHY??????
    IDOCS were ruined because of players crying and lack of any action against cheats. They are multi boxed and scripted even worse now with little reward for others after they swarm through the barrels as one. A complete game style ruined by loud mouth spammers and scripters and stupid resolutions from the Dev team. If you have your way then champs will be ruined to 

    To my opinion, that is because, rather then addressing (and stopping) for good the ability for players to use Third Party unauthorized utilities to run automated BOTs scripts a go go, patched up solutions are found which never address the issue of scripting to its root..... the actual ability that players have and keep having to use Third Party unauthorized utilities to run automated BOTs scripts a go go.

    I tried an effort to discuss the issue with this Thread https://forum.uo.com/discussion/9850/hi-developers-ever-thought-of-easy-anti-cheat-for-ultima-online , but apparently, closing for good the possibilities for players to use Third Party unauthorized utilities to run automated BOTs scripts a go go does not receive much support if Threads trying to discuss ways to stop it for good then get locked....

    Who knows.....perhaps, just  perhaps, scripting in UO is not opposed enough even though many players keep saying that they hate it ?

    Go figure....
  • Victim_Of_SiegeVictim_Of_Siege Posts: 1,874
    edited January 2023
    popps said:
    POPPS. STOP DEFLECTING AND IGNORING MY QUESTION

    DO YOU ACTUALLY SOLO CHAMPS?????????

    I am so glad nobody listens to you. The reason why this game is in such a mess is because of stupid suggestion and the lack of action against cheats

    Champs can be solo'd and are done so on all shards.  Yes people get raided, it's just the nature of the beast. 
    just because YOU cant, and non-one wants you to join them  you want it all changed to suit you

    Pack it in Popps, just stop.  You have no knowledge of champs and very little knowledge of this game in general. Yet you have opinions on EVERYTHING

    IDOCS were ruined because of players crying and lack of any action against cheats. They are multi boxed and scripted even worse now with little reward for others after they swarm through the barrels as one. A complete game style ruined by loud mouth spammers and scripters and stupid resolutions from the Dev team. If you have your way then champs will be ruined to 

    Just stick to tram, you have NO knowledge of this subject and should NOT comment on it

    But you will keep on quoting and firing out drivel. And do not answers direst question from other people.

    Just like the last post, I challenged you to answer a question and you hide for a week, then start up on another post.


     WHY??????
    IDOCS were ruined because of players crying and lack of any action against cheats. They are multi boxed and scripted even worse now with little reward for others after they swarm through the barrels as one. A complete game style ruined by loud mouth spammers and scripters and stupid resolutions from the Dev team. If you have your way then champs will be ruined to 

    To my opinion, that is because, rather then addressing (and stopping) for good the ability for players to use Third Party unauthorized utilities to run automated BOTs scripts a go go, patched up solutions are found which never address the issue of scripting to its root..... the actual ability that players have and keep having to use Third Party unauthorized utilities to run automated BOTs scripts a go go.

    I tried an effort to discuss the issue with this Thread https://forum.uo.com/discussion/9850/hi-developers-ever-thought-of-easy-anti-cheat-for-ultima-online , but apparently, closing for good the possibilities for players to use Third Party unauthorized utilities to run automated BOTs scripts a go go does not receive much support if Threads trying to discuss ways to stop it for good then get locked....

    Who knows.....perhaps, just  perhaps, scripting in UO is not opposed enough even though many players keep saying that they hate it ?

    Go figure....

    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • RinerRiner Posts: 371
    @popps clearly you are ill informed about where to get Tmaps. 1 in 100 corpses? What did you do just make up that figure? I'm sure everyone else here knows where so I'm not going to share the location, but there is a spawn of 2 to 6 mobs depending on how many toons are in the room, each has 100% chance to drop a cache map in Fel. Since the respawn rate is about 3 maybe 5 minutes and kill time is about 30 seconds for 6 mobs, and I'm being generous. I can collect multiple bags of maps in an hour. Most often I then sort out the type I want and trash the rest for clean-up points. If that isn't enough for you, then those chests contain the next higher-level map, and so on. Now, this thread has nothing to do with Thunting and you're attempting to derail it further, but really your claims are baseless. 
  • Again Popps.   WHAT EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE AT SOLOING CHAMPS?
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,965
    Riner said:
    @ popps clearly you are ill informed about where to get Tmaps. 1 in 100 corpses? What did you do just make up that figure? I'm sure everyone else here knows where so I'm not going to share the location, but there is a spawn of 2 to 6 mobs depending on how many toons are in the room, each has 100% chance to drop a cache map in Fel. Since the respawn rate is about 3 maybe 5 minutes and kill time is about 30 seconds for 6 mobs, and I'm being generous. I can collect multiple bags of maps in an hour. Most often I then sort out the type I want and trash the rest for clean-up points. If that isn't enough for you, then those chests contain the next higher-level map, and so on. Now, this thread has nothing to do with Thunting and you're attempting to derail it further, but really your claims are baseless. 
    From the Ultima Online Wiki : 

    https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/treasure-maps/

    Where do I get a Treasure Map?
    As a starting point for a new hunter I would recommend the quest ‘The Witches Apprentice’ Part of the reward for this quest is a map, random level 1 – 4. If you do the quest in Felucca you will get a Felucca map, if you do it in Trammel you will receive a Trammel map.
    Another area where you are sure to receive a map is the Guardian Room in Doom. Here the random level is 1 or 2 (beware the poison cloud!)
    Treasure maps can be found as loot on a wide selection of the creatures in the game. These maps range in difficulty on an internal scale of 1 to 5. The odds of a map appearing on one of these monsters is approximately 1%. Note some Eodon creatures may drop different map levels, depending on the strength of the individual, where this is possible they are shown in both lists

    To my knowledge, 1% means 1 in 100 corpses......

  • RinerRiner Posts: 371
    @popps Instead of simply reading about the game try playing it you will find that your results are different. As I said 100% chance of a map - meaning every corpse. Approximately 100ish maps an hour. 

    Now this subject has been completely derailed and has nothing to do with the original discussion so I'm out. Hopefully, it will get locked to end the senseless nonsense.
  • Again Popps.   WHAT EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE AT SOLOING CHAMPS?


    STOP HIJACKING THIS POST

    Back on topic,  what is your experience in soloing champs to qualify you to comment on this post please?

    It should be simple to answer
This discussion has been closed.