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ToT points: party penalty (!?)

ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 802
in General Discussions

It appears there is a penalty for being in a party as it relates to ToT event drops.  This may be related to how fame is divided while in a party.

In a given test session, a character received 50% more drops than usual just by not being in the party.  Luck and equipment were not a factor.  Kills, session time, etc, were normalized.

Separate from that. there may also be a penalty related to the bard buff "perseverance", that can reduce damage by up to 30%.  If damage received points for ToT are taken after the buff is applied, then you may get less points running that buff.  Likewise, using a swamp mount or the new hiryu mount may have the same point reducing effect.

Unknown if these 2 factors are expected.

This link covers some basic drop tracking.
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Comments

  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,029
    I hope bards are not further penalized....
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    Any testing on this @Jepeth @Khyro @Violet ?

    Thanks
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,352
    I don't do extensive research, but I have to say this is not my experience. I have gotten more drops on our guild hunt night when I'm in a party than on nights when I've hunted alone. I believe luck IS a factor https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/player/stats/luck/
    One of the last things we ask before we start our weekly hunt is 'has everyone touched the luck statue?'
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,169
    edited October 2023
    What @ForeverFun would sort of make sense at least from the damage reduction side of things. Memory is a bit hazy on the exact wording but I believe Kyronix initially said (for ToT drops) that kills & damage taken go into your drop "point pool". IE if you are taking less damage then you aren't filling up your point pool as quickly. Could possibly be the case for kills too... just like everyone in the party gets looting rights... maybe points are divided a bit when in a party?

    @Petra_Fyde - I took what he said about the luck to mean that he used the same amount of luck (assuming 0 to get more of a baseline); not that luck doesn't factor into the amount of drops. That said, I think there is likely a balance of luck vs mobs killed in there somewhere because having 3k luck with less killing power doesn't net as many drops for me having 1500 luck with more killing power (in my experience).
  • usernameusername Posts: 710
    edited October 2023
    If the drops are based on how fame/karma is split in parties then an easy test would be to see if you get drops without attacking anything.

    My experience is the same rate, if not slightly higher, when with a group.
    Perhaps you get more drops when you solo a monster, all the credit for attacking it? Lots of monsters can be 1-shot.
    In a group maybe some monsters you don't earn loot rights, no credit for the kill? Again, lots of monsters can be 1-shot.

    I think there are too many variables to be able to test this on your own with certainty. The spawn varies, has levels, etc.
    This discussion has been closed.

    I will be slow to reply because I cannot log in/stay logged in to the forums.
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  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,122Dev
    edited October 2023
    The allotment of drop point allocation is based on top contributor ranking (healing, dmg dealt, dmg received).  The top slot receives the same % of points regardless of how they get to that position.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    Thanks.  I could not tell if I get more or less drops in a party. Seemed the same to me.  It's just sometimes I can go faster without the bard following. 

    Also nice that healing is a verified way to get points.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 802
    edited October 2023

    The question of fame and possible party influence does remain.  I've run a few more tests and the observation re: party still appears to hold true.  Factors like solo, and others brought up in the thread so-far, aren't in the picture.

    The "dmg received" is likely net damage received (post any buff applied), so running perseverance (and riding mounts that reduce damage) could well be a negative as it relates to points accumulation.

    (if a sampire could run at say all 50 resists, they'd take more damage...)

    Perhaps on test center, a little system message could inform of points info.  (this happened with luck for an egg/luck factor event).
  • shootgunshootgun Posts: 288
    edited October 2023
    @Kyronix if you dont mind me asking, how does luck play role in that? Does it multiply the point we got at the end of allocation? If that is the case, then what is the max multiplier we can get with luck?

    A guildie claims he gets 80+ items an hour with 0 luck... I could get around 28-29 with 2800 luck, so I am a bit lost. I am wondering if I should drop all of my luck and go pure dex. May be he is over exaggerating his results?

    Thanks a lot for your time.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    username said:
    If the drops are based on how fame/karma is split in parties then an easy test would be to see if you get drops without attacking anything.


    My bard will get no drops unless he also kills things so he is not getting any of the fame towards points.  
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 802
    We know that drops are awarded at the time a monster dies.

    Also, in regards to fame, hopefully the fame level of the character plays no role.  (fame gets harder to gain as you have more points in it).
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    edited October 2023
    We know that drops are awarded at the time a monster dies.

    Also, in regards to fame, hopefully the fame level of the character plays no role.  (fame gets harder to gain as you have more points in it).
    He has stated it is the fame of the Mob.

    I have noticed that when I kill a para beetle, I run to some low lvl mobs and will get a drop after a few kills.  But if I kill Para Beetles over and over, I wont get a drop.

    You have to change up what you kill.  That is part of the anti afk programming.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 802
    edited October 2023
    Pawain said:
    We know that drops are awarded at the time a monster dies.

    Also, in regards to fame, hopefully the fame level of the character plays no role.  (fame gets harder to gain as you have more points in it).
    He has stated it is the fame of the Mob.

    Sure, the fame of the mob may influence the points awarded.

    The two points raised are a bit different:
    1. Does the splitting of fame due to being in a party (or some other party mechanic) impact points awarded,
    2. Does the fame of the character impact points awarded

    The way "dmg received" works doesn't seem right to me, either...  (drum roll for covefefe to appear).
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,029
    I don't understand why the formula must be top secret people say it's to stop the cheaters but that is clearly not working and only hurts honest players 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    Grimbeard said:
    I don't understand why the formula must be top secret people say it's to stop the cheaters but that is clearly not working and only hurts honest players 
    Kill stuff get drops, there is no hurting honest players. 
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,029
    Pawain said:
    Grimbeard said:
    I don't understand why the formula must be top secret people say it's to stop the cheaters but that is clearly not working and only hurts honest players 
    Kill stuff get drops, there is no hurting honest players. Now that you've clarified that you believe it's working as intended and have no need to understand how there should be no further need for you to comment?  I'd like to know say if bard is party leader with 3350 luck and is only buffing does macer doing the killing gain from the bards luck ?
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    No the bards luck will not be the one used in the formula, it is determined by the top damager formula.

    No freeby points.  

    Volume killing, and luck determine drops. Many times, volume killing yields more rewards. 

    Not all players want to volume kill, they want to participate in a community event with the Characters they like best.  

    Slow killing templates will yield more drops with higher Luck.

    Everyone gets more drops with the Potion!

    Sponsored by: 


    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,122Dev
    edited October 2023
    The fame of the monster is only used to calculate how many points are available for distribution.  Once that calculation is made, distribution is awarded based on position on the list.

    With re: to luck - luck comes into play when you roll for a reward.  The more luck you have and the more points you've accumulated, the more likely you are to get a minor artifact drop.  There is no limit to how much luck can influence your chances. 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    Kyronix said:
    The fame of the monster is only used to calculate how many points are available for distribution.  Once that calculation is made, distribution is awarded based on position on the list.
    Thank you.  That will help encourage players to share kills.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,029
    Pawain said:
    Kyronix said:
    The fame of the monster is only used to calculate how many points are available for distribution.  Once that calculation is made, distribution is awarded based on position on the list.
    Thank you.  That will help encourage players to share kills.
    Yes thank you!
  • shootgunshootgun Posts: 288
    Thanks a lot for the information.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,169
    edited October 2023
    Kyronix said:
    The fame of the monster is only used to calculate how many points are available for distribution.  Once that calculation is made, distribution is awarded based on position on the list.
    Pawain said:
    Thank you.  That will help encourage players to share kills.

    Hmm I took this to mean the exact opposite. My interpretation is that fame pre-sets available points, so a skeleton dragon has pre-defined amount of 1500 points, hypothetically speaking, and based on damage done / damage taken / HP healed / etc, a player is given X points. If I kill that skeleton dragon solo that means 1500 points goes to me vs sharing the kill and being awarded X% based on my ranking. That's what my take on it was.

    Kyronix said:
    With re: to luck - luck comes into play when you roll for a reward.  The more luck you have and the more points you've accumulated, the more likely you are to get a minor artifact drop.  There is no limit to how much luck can influence your chances. 

    I'm thinking this means that the system kinda works like spring event killing rabbits. Each time a kill happens there is a roll "Will you get a drop"  and if the answer is no then points are banked. The roll "will you get a drop" probably fluctuates between X & Y each time (like 20k points and 30k) and having luck helps bump up your "base" points each time. Maybe to simplify that thought; it would be better to say if you had like 3k luck that gives you no less than a starting point of 3k "banked points"... then you need to kill stuff to get another 17k+ to roll for a chance at a drop.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    Yes 4 players can kill paragons a lot faster then 1 can. So even tho you would get more individual point per kill, you get more kills with more players. So you get more overall points as a team.

    Think of 4 individuals fighting a paragon solo.  The team would kill more spawn and those 4 paras faster then the individuals.

    Some individuals can kill as fast as a team.

    If you are not one of those individuals then travel as a team.

    4 archers can wipe out mobs pretty fast.


    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 802
    edited October 2023
    Kyronix said:
    The fame of the monster is only used to calculate how many points are available for distribution.  Once that calculation is made, distribution is awarded based on position on the list.

    Devil is in the details :)

    How many slots in the list?  Say 10 people (none partied) are attacking, and all get looting rights, how many get a slice of the points?  Does a party attacking count as 1 slot, or all party members each get a potential slot (assume all did enough dmg for looting rights)?

    We know for invasions, "3" was the magic number for assignment of the loot.  Hopefully, that isn't the case here :)

    Also, another "detail".  It appears there is only at most 1 arty drop per kill, no matter how many attackers there were.  I don't know if this was always true (perhaps changed during destard?)

  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,122Dev
    edited October 2023
    Attackers/Healers/Tanks will always get their allotted share of the points, regardless of how many players are on the list.  The higher on the list, the more points you are allotted.  Your position and how many points you are awarded is not affected by anyone else's position.

    There is no magic number for party members, it's all calculated on an individual basis.

    Drops are calculated on a per player basis, there is no set amount of drops that can be obtained from a single mob.  If all players roll successfully for a drop, all players get one.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,029
    Kyronix said:
    Attackers/Healers/Tanks will always get their allotted share of the points, regardless of how many players are on the list.  The higher on the list, the more points you are allotted.  Your position and how many points you are awarded is not affected by anyone else's position.

    There is no magic number for party members, it's all calculated on an individual basis.

    Drops are calculated on a per player basis, there is no set amount of drops that can be obtained from a single mob.  If all players roll successfully for a drop, all players get one.
    We appreciate your replies!! Can you address people getting "mistakenly " hit with afk penalty perhaps a general this is what triggers it 
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,122Dev
    No, I won’t be commenting on any mechanics of the afk penalty.  
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,029
    Kyronix said:
    No, I won’t be commenting on any mechanics of the afk penalty.  
    Well thanks for commenting about not commenting!
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,112
    So basically if we kill stuff we get our earned points and other players do not affect our points. 2 players on one mob may yield less points per player but that time saved means more kills/time.

    That's all the math I need.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,122Dev
    Pawain said:
    So basically if we kill stuff we get our earned points and other players do not affect our points. 2 players on one mob may yield less points per player but that time saved means more kills/time.

    That's all the math I need.
    2 players on one mob yields the same points per player as 1 player on one mob or 8 players on one mob.

    You are awarded a percentage of the total points available based on your position on the list.  The pool of points does not decrease once you are paid out your points.
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