Shadowguard changes

I brought this up on another discussion website and it was suggested that I post here.  Why have changes been made to the Fountain and Belfry?  You now have to use all 4 drains or you won't get credit for the Fountain.  When soloing the Fountain, the spawn is so horribly low that this change has made it impossible to finish the room unless you're fortunate enough to have all 4 drains close to the spigots.  In the Belfry, I have tried my cu sidhe and frost dragon.  Neither of them can stay on the tower with the Greater Dragon.  I know our pets have always been pushed off but now, our characters are being pushed off too even though the GD is focused on our pets.  Are these changes permanent?  Were they done in error?  If they are permanent, I think that was a big mistake and Shadowguard will go the way of Doom.  So sad to see.  Any feedback would be appreciated.
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Comments

  • LarisaLarisa Posts: 840
    First...the way the fountain was SUPPOSED to work is that you were to use all 4 drains...and it's not supposed to be a solo encounter,..yeah I know..I can't get people to help me, my friends are never on....still not supposed to be a solo encounter. Yes I have done that before...go in, collect pieces for about 10 minutes, go back out and back in and use those pieces....that's kinda not how it works though lol.

    As for the belfry...pets have always been pushed off the platform, as far as players being pushed off now? While I hope that's not intended, because it is a pain in the rear lol, it's really not that bad, killing the drakes is fairly easy and that's how the room was intended to work in the first place, so technically being able to get your flying pets up there without having to kill drakes is a bug, I know it's just using game mechanics and sure it makes it a lot easier to NOT have to kill the drakes but now I feel with these changes it's working the way it's always supposed to...since Shadowguard is Kyronix's baby maybe he can chime in :)



  • MerusMerus Posts: 515
    Larisa said:
    First...the way the fountain was SUPPOSED to work is that you were to use all 4 drains...and it's not supposed to be a solo encounter,..yeah I know..I can't get people to help me, my friends are never on....still not supposed to be a solo encounter. Yes I have done that before...go in, collect pieces for about 10 minutes, go back out and back in and use those pieces....that's kinda not how it works though lol.

    As for the belfry...pets have always been pushed off the platform, as far as players being pushed off now? While I hope that's not intended, because it is a pain in the rear lol, it's really not that bad, killing the drakes is fairly easy and that's how the room was intended to work in the first place, so technically being able to get your flying pets up there without having to kill drakes is a bug, I know it's just using game mechanics and sure it makes it a lot easier to NOT have to kill the drakes but now I feel with these changes it's working the way it's always supposed to...since Shadowguard is Kyronix's baby maybe he can chime in :)


    Just to point out your entire post does nothing to refute the OP.  Regardless of how it was “supposed to be”, these changes do not improve the encounter... they just make it more annoying.
  • DerajDeraj Posts: 82
    I've never liked how the belfry worked at all. The fact that the bell will spawn drakes even on people who are on the tower is ridiculous (because what if one of those drakes drop the wing? Makes no sense). It might make more sense if the wing brought the whole party up, or, if the party could continue fighting drakes on the ground while the party on the tower remains unaffected by the drake spawns. Then you could have a continuous stream of people trying to get up the tower - but when the drakes spawn for the people already on the tower, there exists a notion that the tower has to be loaded with certain players (while others stay grounded), and all the wing searching and drake killing has to be carefully planned out, with players already loaded on the tower unable to kill the drakes that spawn around them (which could contain the wings).
  • TeapotTeapot Posts: 58
    Ive been farming the roof non stop in preparation that I won't really be able to do it again next week unless some people stumble online.  The room changes would just be the cherry on top.  Will be searching for stuff to do next week, Im sure my wife will be happy at least.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited June 2018
    This has very little to do with me. 

    I mentioned in on one of my bug posts an issue with the belfry just as an example, however rather than address the issue as a whole, just the example with the belfry has been addressed in an obscure way that was not my proposed solution. So I’m washing my hands of this one.

    https://forum.uo.com/discussion/227/16-bugs-to-be-fixed-for-publish-100-please#latest
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PinkertonPinkerton Posts: 105
    How long has Shadowguard been out?

    Years?  (I honestly don't know)

    Why these changes and why now?

    And yes, this will just be another version of Doom.  Why instead of killing encounters and slapping hasty, dumb, non-player-friendly fixes on these things don't you guys at Broadsword take some time and really think these encounters out?

    I honestly question your actual game design chops.  Sometimes you hit the nail on the head, and sometimes you just flail about wildly with these things.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited June 2018
    hold on a second. 

    Nobody has actiallly sad so. But I’m getting the overall feel that some people are maybe opposed to the changes. Can someone explain why?

    Let us talk about the belfry. The challenge is and always has been to ring the bell, kill the drakes, get feather, attack dragon until pushed off, rinse and repeat. What does it matter that you the pet owner get pushed off also?? What does it change for you please? 

    How exactly were you killing the boss before? Are you seriously trying to tell me, that instead of playing the game as intended, you were getting on the platform and when your pet got pushed off, you logged out and back in or something to get your pet back up onto the platform by abusing auto pet log out?
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • Uriah_HeepUriah_Heep Posts: 915
    "" Sometimes you hit the nail on the head""

    Pappy always said, "Even the blind hog finds an acorn occasionally"
  • LarisaLarisa Posts: 840
    Mervyn said:
    hold on a second. 

    Nobody has actiallly sad so. But I’m getting the overall feel that some people are maybe opposed to the changes. Can someone explain why?

    Let us talk about the belfry. The challenge is and always has been to ring the bell, kill the drakes, get feather, attack dragon until pushed off, rinse and repeat. What does it matter that you the pet owner get pushed off also?? What does it change for you please? 

    How exactly were you killing the boss before? Are you seriously trying to tell me, that instead of playing the game as intended, you were getting on the platform and when your pet got pushed off, you logged out and back in or something to get your pet back up onto the platform by abusing auto pet log out?
    NO....actually if you have a flying pet you can get it to fly up there without you ever having to kill a drake :)

    Being pushed off is not a big deal....BUT having your pet get stuck when it's pushed off and then having it glitch out IS a big deal....seems to be just with non-flying pets...so far as our testing as confirmed.

  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    If you’re using flying pets then nothing has changed. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • LarisaLarisa Posts: 840
    Yeah it has changed because pre-publish we went in with all Cu's, killed the drakes and stood on the platform and not one person got pushed off only pets so the character getting pushed off is new..as is the pet getting pushed off and stuck is new.

  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Its no secret that myself and Kyronix have an ongoing history of disagreements. I’m afraid I feel I should again voice my dissatisfaction here.

    So, you’ll see this change to the belfry has probably come from what I mentioned in this thread:

    https://forum.uo.com/discussion/227/16-bugs-to-be-fixed-for-publish-100-please#latest

    And basically for years I’ve been campaigning on this issue about auto pet logout being abused and for years Kyronix has defaulted to “not a bug” response (which per chance happens to be the response that requires the least amount of work to do)

    the only reason I mentioned the belfry in my bug post was because I was aware that Kyronix designed shadowguard (and it is a very good encounter, credit where credit is due). I mentioned specifically the belfry as Kyronix would have more of an understanding of how the game is supposed to work (since he designed it) and so rather than accept that auto pet log out is not quite “working as intended” he just changes this one specific example so as to not be affected by auto pet logout...

    What about all of the others? Such as summoning pets to ilshenar? maybe when you log out in ilshenar with a pet he will change it so yoi get nudged all the way back to the moongate....



    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • LarisaLarisa Posts: 840
    The thing is..I WAS able to log out to retrieve my pet...that worked fine...as intended :) BUT now it won't follow me....it will stop and stay but won't follow or come.

  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Larisa said:
    The thing is..I WAS able to log out to retrieve my pet...that worked fine...as intended :) BUT now it won't follow me....it will stop and stay but won't follow or come.
    That is a bug then that needs to be addressed. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Also I have to ask, why bother making these changes yet still allow fruit eating pets to consume the orchard apples to prevent spawn appearing? 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • LarisaLarisa Posts: 840
    Yes...I really wouldn't be upset if they stopped allowing the auto-pet log out....though it has been really handy! I can manage without it, you just get so used to using it! It would take some adjusting for sure but it wouldn't really effect my game play too much.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,314
    Larisa said:
    Yes...I really wouldn't be upset if they stopped allowing the auto-pet log out....though it has been really handy! I can manage without it, you just get so used to using it! It would take some adjusting for sure but it wouldn't really effect my game play too much.


    Then you dont do spawns. Pets wonder all over the place and go 2 screens away in whatever direction.  If pets would follow commands then maybe.  Come to LS Ill show you how horrible the pet AI is.  Or grab any pet and dont mount it and run a couple of laps around Luna your pet will get stuck in seconds.  Run through Shame with a pet in tow.


  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Pawain said:
    Larisa said:
    Yes...I really wouldn't be upset if they stopped allowing the auto-pet log out....though it has been really handy! I can manage without it, you just get so used to using it! It would take some adjusting for sure but it wouldn't really effect my game play too much.


    Then you dont do spawns. Pets wonder all over the place and go 2 screens away in whatever direction.  If pets would follow commands then maybe.  Come to LS Ill show you how horrible the pet AI is.  Or grab any pet and dont mount it and run a couple of laps around Luna your pet will get stuck in seconds.  Run through Shame with a pet in tow.


    Then what you’re requesting is an improvement to pet pathfinding. Nothing to do with auto logout.

    I do not post here to abolish the scriptures, but to fulfill them.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,314
    You post to abolish fun so the numbers will drop and you can get your Fel shard built for the 10 players left.
  • SlissSliss Posts: 275
    Mervyn said:
    hold on a second. 

    Nobody has actiallly sad so. But I’m getting the overall feel that some people are maybe opposed to the changes. Can someone explain why?

    "Some prople?!"
    The reason pretty much everyone is opposed to these changes because they take an already incredibly grindy system and make it more so. Grind is not fun. Grind makes people not want to log in. There should be less of it, not more.
  • TeapotTeapot Posts: 58
    Pawain said:
    You post to abolish fun so the numbers will drop and you can get your Fel shard built for the 10 players left.
    I usually just get the feel of someone whom enjoy's flamebaiting.  Kinda just feel bad for him.
  • LarisaLarisa Posts: 840
    Pawain said:
    Larisa said:
    Yes...I really wouldn't be upset if they stopped allowing the auto-pet log out....though it has been really handy! I can manage without it, you just get so used to using it! It would take some adjusting for sure but it wouldn't really effect my game play too much.


    Then you dont do spawns. Pets wonder all over the place and go 2 screens away in whatever direction.  If pets would follow commands then maybe.  Come to LS Ill show you how horrible the pet AI is.  Or grab any pet and dont mount it and run a couple of laps around Luna your pet will get stuck in seconds.  Run through Shame with a pet in tow.


    NO I don't do spawns on a TAMER...I do spawns on my Sampire..I stopped spawning on a tamer ages ago....and if your pet gets stuck...go back and get it....if it gets hung up on a corner..go back and get it! Like doing Andro's and trying to get those darn centaurs to follow you down to him..that's fun! LOL I honestly don't mind it..

  • Dot_WarnerDot_Warner Posts: 233
    Sliss said:
    "Some prople?!"
    The reason pretty much everyone is opposed to these changes because they take an already incredibly grindy system and make it more so. Grind is not fun. Grind makes people not want to log in. There should be less of it, not more.
    Exactly. Grinds aren't fun. 

    The Belfry is already a tremendously boring encounter. It doesn't need to be more so. (Tedium disguised as complexity doesn't make anything less boring)
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited June 2018
    But you haven’t explained why or how it’s more of a grind? Again, please explain what difference this has made. How is it harder now? What did you do before that you can’t do now?
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • jaytinjaytin Posts: 417
    Pawain said:
    You post to abolish fun so the numbers will drop and you can get your Fel shard built for the 10 players left.
    Amen to that!  :p
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,093
    Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. But then my character is a peace tamer, I don't use it to get my pets to out of the way places, I use the crystals/jawbone or I walk using 'follow me' and area peace. 

    On the fountain, the difference in spawn between one person trying to do it and two is way more than double. If the spawn for one was increased just a bit (25%?) it would make it more possible for someone who can't find a partner when needed.  Less RNG and more even percentages on the drops would help too. Far too often you end up with a bag full of 'wrong' corners and desperately hoping for the one you need to fall before the timer runs out.
  • Sliss said:
    Mervyn said:
    hold on a second. 

    Nobody has actiallly sad so. But I’m getting the overall feel that some people are maybe opposed to the changes. Can someone explain why?

    "Some prople?!"
    The reason pretty much everyone is opposed to these changes because they take an already incredibly grindy system and make it more so. Grind is not fun. Grind makes people not want to log in. There should be less of it, not more.
    QFT
  • TeapotTeapot Posts: 58

    On the fountain, the difference in spawn between one person trying to do it and two is way more than double. If the spawn for one was increased just a bit (25%?) it would make it more possible for someone who can't find a partner when needed.  Less RNG and more even percentages on the drops would help too. Far too often you end up with a bag full of 'wrong' corners and desperately hoping for the one you need to fall before the timer runs out.
    Yeah by comparison the armory isn't nearly as bad when you bring more people.  I usually 3 client the armory but never more than two on the fountain, from two to 3 is really dramatic.  And even when Im playing with other people we will still split the fountain to groups of two unless we are just going in for pieces.
  • MerusMerus Posts: 515
    Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. 
    So any random lost connection basically ends whatever you happened to be doing if you are playing a tamer so you can run back to town and get your pet.  Maybe not a big deal if your play time consists of sitting at Luna bank, but utterly horrible if your out actually playing the game, particularly in a keyed encounter.

    It's stupid comments like these that get these pancaked ideas put into the game.
  • Uriah_HeepUriah_Heep Posts: 915
    Merus said:
    Auto stable is not a bug, it was put in to avoid people losing their pets when they lost connection for whatever reason. That's not just Kyronix's opinion, it's the TEAM's stand on the question, blaming Kyronix is just 'shooting the messenger'.  However, it is widely abused.  I, personally, would be quite happy if the pet was auto stabled and stayed there, meaning that when you logged in you'd have to go to the stable and fetch it. 
    So any random lost connection basically ends whatever you happened to be doing if you are playing a tamer so you can run back to town and get your pet.  Maybe not a big deal if your play time consists of sitting at Luna bank, but utterly horrible if your out actually playing the game, particularly in a keyed encounter.

    It's stupid comments like these that get these pancaked ideas put into the game.
     One way to avoid that problem is to get rid of the stupid keys, and just let us play the game without all the grind!
This discussion has been closed.