Understanding Archery Elemental damage

With archery both the bow and quiver can have elemental damage modifiers and could be conflicting - as you can only do 100% of any damage type I am wondering which type I would be doing if I had the quiver equip'ed, and rather that is different for an elemental bow and a physical one. Some have suggested that the quiver damage is applied to final damage to overwrites the bows. I do know I can side step this whole issue by using consecrate weapon. 

Also, how is the damage modifier applied that the quiver has - for example the Quiver of Fire has a 10% damage modifier. I know that is not damage increase but curious what it is and how it applies when equip'ed. 

I'm also aware that there are better items for the back slot but I would really like to know. Thank you.

Comments

  • NorryNorry Posts: 494
    As people would tell pops, get a slayer weapon and talisman(demon easy now) and see if you do 10% more with the quiver(yes double slayers stack, but hit cap as a lesser slayer would).
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited February 15
    Riner said:
    Also, how is the damage modifier applied that the quiver has - for example the Quiver of Fire has a 10% damage modifier. I know that is not damage increase but curious what it is and how it applies when equip'ed. 

    The quiver is applied in the optional modifier portion of the melee damage calculation.

        
    -Arroth
  • RinerRiner Posts: 161
    edited February 15
    Actually, your right I could experiment a bit with it to find out about damage modifier was just curious if anyone already knew how it applied. I've already learned the answer to the first part that Elemental damage on a quiver overwrites damage type of the bow. 

    But thanks for your input Norry!  
  • RinerRiner Posts: 161
    Oh wow! Completely different from what other people have claimed! Thank you very much Arroth_Thaiel  that chart answers a lot of questions! Did you make it or find it some place because it's very inclusive and answers even more questions than I had! Seriously, thanks. 
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited February 15
    There is a ton of information about how melee is calculated, both here and on Stratics. I made the chart based off a former dev's explanations and have expanded it as I tested. If you want more info about melee damage start with the following thread and follow the link back to Logrus original post on Stratics.
    suggestion: Remove DI from items cap, keep 300 DI total cap - Ultima Online Forums (uo.com) 
    -Arroth
  • RinerRiner Posts: 161
    Thank you I will read that over. Hope you don't mind I repeated your chart in my stratics post as others may not know. Only been playing a year and so much to learn!
  • No I don't mind. I think much of that information is already pinned in the Stratics Warriors forum.
    -Arroth
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 1,579
    “to answer the original question, the quiver is the dominant elemental damage"
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited February 17
    @Riner

    I'm afraid I completely misled you with how the Quiver Damage Modifier: 10% is calculated. Not purposefully, only because I had been completely misled myself. After re-reading the post from ShadowTrauma in that Stratics thread (https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/page-2) and doing some testing myself today, I can demonstrate the following for the Damage Modifier: 10% found on quivers. 

    First, Damage Modifier: 10% is a horribly misleading way of describing the effect of this property. This property is not a modifier in the Damage Modifier portion of the Archery Damage Calculation (nor melee). 



    However, the effect of Damage Modifier: 10% does appear in your Character Sheet. The following two screen shots show the No Quiver and Equipped Quiver states.

    No Quiver


    Equipped Quiver


    You have to fire a shot before the effect of the property will be calculated and the UI updated to show the new damage numbers.

    With that information you can determine that Damage Modifier: 10% is added to Attack Damage as 10% of Base Weapon Damage, after Attack Damage has been calculated, but prior to Damage Modifier being applied. This is shown in the chart below.


    As ShadowTrauma stated years ago, this is a fairly weak property, but with additional damage modifiers does a slight bit more damage. For this build, 176-220 damage at 300% modifier with No Quiver and 181-226 damage at 300% modifier with Equipped Quiver. 

    As a raw data example of how the property performs in game, and complimenting the calculations and screenshots above, here are the results of my testing:


    As you can see, not ground shattering for PvE. It basically produced an average of 2 more damage for the current build (~150 shots No Quiver, ~150 shots Equipped Quiver). Which is still more damage, just a minor style improvement.

    Good luck Riner!

    -Arroth
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    So if you are at 100% DI, this quiver does nothing for you?
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,278
    Pawain said:
    So if you are at 100% DI, this quiver does nothing for you?

    Based on the screenshot compare both damage increase were 100/100 but the based damage increased with the quiver equipped. I think this falls into the damage modifier field which has a cap of 300 (takes strength / tactics / anatomy / slayer / etc).

    So if you are up against that 300 cap (ie you are using a dragon slayer bow against a dragon) then it wouldn't do anything but if you are shooting something that doesn't have a slayer it would give you a slight bump.

    At least that is the way I interpret it.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    keven2002 said:
    Pawain said:
    So if you are at 100% DI, this quiver does nothing for you?

    Based on the screenshot compare both damage increase were 100/100 but the based damage increased with the quiver equipped. I think this falls into the damage modifier field which has a cap of 300 (takes strength / tactics / anatomy / slayer / etc).

    So if you are up against that 300 cap (ie you are using a dragon slayer bow against a dragon) then it wouldn't do anything but if you are shooting something that doesn't have a slayer it would give you a slight bump.

    At least that is the way I interpret it.
    Never mind. When I read it last night I saw the DI at like 70 without and 80 with.
    Today I see the 100s.

    Must have been the drugs.
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited February 17
    No, the Quiver Damage Modifier: 10% has nothing to do with the DI Cap or the Modifier Cap.

    It is a completely separate calculation, derived from the base damage of the weapon, applied to Attack Damage prior to Modifier Damage being calculated.
    - If you're at 100% DI, you would still add 10% of Base Weapon Damage to Attack Damage, prior to applying Modifier Damage.
    - If you're at 300% Modifier, you would still add 10% Base Weapon Damage to Attack Damage, prior to applying Modifier Damage.
    - If you're at 100% DI and 300% Modifier, you would still add 10% Base Weapon Damage to Attack Damage, prior to applying Modifier Damage.

    In my diagram, it can be visualized like this:


    Hope that helps.
    -Arroth
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,278
    Thank you @Arroth_Thaiel

    Have you tested this out on mobs to compare the difference? Wearing that quiver would come with a pretty big opportunity cost I think (either 5SSI or 20 DMI) so I'd be curious if that damage done would be noticeable enough to make the sacrifice.
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited February 17
    Yes I have tested it on mobs (Pacific).

    With an equipped quiver, a Composite Bow base type, 100% DI, and 100% Damage Modifier, I got an average of 2 extra damage against scorpions, vs. without the quiver. Those results are posted earlier in the thread. 

    With an equipped quiver, a Composite Bow base type, 100% DI, and 300% Damage Modifier, I got an average of 6 extra damage against terathan warriors, vs. without the quiver. 


    Because of the way this works, you can actually calculate your average damage increase, quiver vs. no quiver, using the base damage of an archery weapon.

    For instance, a heavy crossbow has a base damage of 20-24. If you equip a quiver, you would add 10% base damage (2 - 2.4) to your base attack damage, whatever your base attack damage is. You would then multiply the result by your modifier.

    So, Heavy X-bow (20-24) base damage:
    100% Modifier = average about (2 - 2.4) extra damage using a quiver
    200% Modifier = average about (4 - 4.8) extra damage using a quiver
    300% Modifier = average about (6 - 7.2) extra damage using a quiver

    Yumi (13-17) base damage:
    100% Modifier = average about (1.3 -1.7) extra damage using a quiver
    200% Modifier = average about (2.6 - 3.4) extra damage using a quiver
    300% Modifier = average about (3.9 - 5.1) extra damage using a quiver

    It's definitely not earth shattering numbers, at least for PvE. 

    However, if you're fighting a boss or something, and you're wearing a quiver and doing an extra say 3 damage over 100 shots, that be an extra 300-ish damage by the end of the fight.

    I'm really not sure what to make of the property, or if I'd swap out a back slot item for it. My goal was just to figure out how the property was actually applied.
    -Arroth
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