suggestion: Remove DI from items cap, keep 300 DI total cap

There are so MANY moves and items, even the gargoyle racial ability, that have been rendered useless in most cases by the 100 DI from items cap. If it was removed, but keeping the 300 DI total, it would open up a world of possibility on template construction.
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Comments

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,407
    If you mean just remove 100 DI now, it will cause our dps to drop immediately. The maths needs to be adjusted to take care of the lost in damage from DI before x3 for the damage bonus.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • GwenGwen Posts: 182
    First they need to fix descriptions of damage increase, damage increase from items and damage bonus both in-game and on WIKI. It is totally mixed up.  (damage increase, damage bonus, damage modifier, etc..)  @Mariah , can you do this one day ? Also please add gargoyle racial ability somewhere. It is not reflected on a webpage   https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/melee-damage-increase/
    Then add descriptions to special moves - are they affected by DI or damage bonus, or slayer. 
    Some are not . Also velocity removes slayer. 

  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,140Moderator
    @gwen I'm sorry, I have no knowledge beyond that listed on the page you have linked. I understood that information to be correct.
  • GwenGwen Posts: 182
    @Maria , there is a total mix of different names : damage increase, damage bonus, damage modifier . Also game has just "damage" . Example : both Chivalry spell icons tell you there is + XX damage. But according to WIKI (which is correct) they go to two different cestions. What wiki page calls damage bonus is in-game damage increase. What Wiki calls damage modifier are (some) damage bonuses. Quiver and Inspire are called "modifier"in the game. @Kyronix , is it possible to name damage gumps from icons and spell descriptions in some standard way and then to help Maria to proofread Wiki article about damage?
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited May 2021
    The mix of names is because there is a mix of damage types in game and damage types are broken up and applied differently.
     
    With regards specifically to a Bard's Inspire, the tooltip over the Mastery icon references "melee damage increase". Inspire provides increases in melee damage through two separate systems, so the tooltip references a generalized "melee damage" rather than specific damage systems. However, the tooltip for the Inspire buff icon does break down the "melee damage increase" into the two damage systems that the buff interacts with. So yes, this can be confusing. On the Inspire buff icon you'll see +% Damage Increase, which is identical to +% Damage Increase from items and is displayed on your character sheet. You'll also see "Bonus Damage Modifier: + 15%", which is damage is applied as a modifier.
    -Arroth
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,407
    edited May 2021
    The different types of damage should be clearly differentiated. The game is complicated for new or returning players, there is no need to make it even more confusing. It would be good if the terms used are more consistent and accurate. I recall bringing up an old post recently where the description was wrong.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited May 2021
    @Seth
    Agreed.

    However, if you lay it out on a spread sheet, there are really only two damage systems you're affecting with items and buffs. Damage Increase and Damage Modifier. The tooltips should really be consistent with explaining that.

    -Arroth
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 1,579
    edited May 2021
    @ Seth
    Agreed.

    However, if you lay it out on a spread sheet, there are really only two damage systems you're affecting with items and buffs. Damage Increase and Damage Modifier. The tooltips should really be consistent with explaining that.


    "Where are you getting the info about honor self from?
    Also, Grapes of wrath are not modifier, they give 35 damage increase (item damage increase at cap 100), unless they give a hidden 10% damage modifier not listed on the buff

    a bug report about incorrect and vague descriptions of damage bonus in game has already been raised March 2019

    PS a bug report about velocity has also already been raised July 2018

    If anyone can  find any incorrect information on Mariah's wiki page, please point it out
     @Lynk @CovenantX ; please review
    "


    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited May 2021
    @Yoshi

    The information I have about Bard's Inspire, Grapes of Wrath, and Honor Self are from developer Logrus in a thread on Stratics in October of 2012. The thread can no longer be retrieved by the link I have, since there have been so many changes with Stratics. Logrus edited his post to make sure Grapes of Wrath 10% was added to Damage Modifier. (I copied his posts and kept .txt's of the conversation.)

    Obviously it has been a long time since Logrus posts, so Grapes of Wrath and Honor may have changed. However, since the information came directly from a Dev, and I have not tested each buff myself to see how it works currently, I left it in my spreadsheet.

    I'm figuring the lists I have for DI and DM are not complete (I was unaware Grapes of Wrath had +35% Damage Increase). I just use the layout to give myself a mental reminder of how all this stuff fits together.

    Edit: I'm glad to see there is a bug report about the tooltips not being accurate. 
    -Arroth
  • zimazima Posts: 54
    @seth . As stated quite clearly, I request to remove the DI CAP. 
    Very valid points on the clarification of damage multiplier and increase! Yet, they do not address the main topic. @kyronix, the sheer amount of different sources of DI beg for more room. I am not a fan of increasing the 300 damage increase cap, but if a player can supplement DI on items for DI from skill, like anatomy or tactics, then why not? We still have plenty of reason to have points in those skills (90 tac for secondary special, 60 anat to cure, etc). 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,407
    edited May 2021
    Firstly, I agree with @Gwen 's point about sticking to the definition of Damage Increase(DI), Damage Bonus(DB) and Damage Modifier(DM). Do not use them "interchangeably" as it will cause confusion.

    The opening statements from:

    Damage Increase falls into two types, both types have an overall cap of 300%, however they are calculated differently:

    First, damage bonus, this comes from your stats, your skills and any items with the magic item property ‘damage increase’ and is additional to the base damage of the weapon wielded. The chivalry spell ‘divine fury’ also falls into this group.

    Second, damage modifier, this comes from slayer properties, special moves, special abilities and cast spells and is a multiplier.


    The above statement is already conflicting as it seems to say DI falls into two types and name First and Second below. Then DI is again mentioned in the is a subset of DB? I am clear but the statements are confusing.

    --
    Secondly, I begin to see why they call "Damage Bonus" after looking at @Arroth_Thaiel 's file. Using that spreadsheet and looking at the character sheet:

    a) Anything that affects the "DI" in the character sheet should be called a "DI". It is common sense, right? So everyone seeing any description in the game or wiki knows that affect This spec. Only those damages related to this 100/100 should be called DI, nothing else.


    b) The "Damage" in the character sheet above should be named "Base Damage" (edit: or Total Base Damage"), and so,
    Total Base Damage is equal to (DI + DB) x Weapon Damage

    So anything that does not affect the DI, but adds to the Total Base Damage is Damage Bonus.


    Every vet could take a look at the above and understand, but it could also be very confusing for any new or returning players trying a new character type, etc. For example, I may be a veteran but I have not looked into bard's damage increase or bonus or modifier whatever that is. If the descriptions are mashed up then it can get very confusing.

    In conclusion, it is important to stick with the each term (DI, DB and DM) in all aspects of the game. They have their own meaning.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,407
    edited May 2021
    zima said:
    @ seth . As stated quite clearly, I request to remove the DI CAP. 
    Very valid points on the clarification of damage multiplier and increase! Yet, they do not address the main topic. @ kyronix, the sheer amount of different sources of DI beg for more room. I am not a fan of increasing the 300 damage increase cap, but if a player can supplement DI on items for DI from skill, like anatomy or tactics, then why not? We still have plenty of reason to have points in those skills (90 tac for secondary special, 60 anat to cure, etc). 

    Yes sir, I misread and understand what you want now is the CAP, not remove the "DI". But after reading your post again I am confused are you referring to DI, DB or DM now? There is no 300 cap for DI, its shown as 100/100 on character sheet.

    This is why we should settle the definition first before discussing further. Its not your fault or mine, but the errors that we make are a result of the game not sticking to the definition of what is meant by DI DB and DM.

    If we use those terms correctly, then we can communicate and discuss more effectively. No point if you call the "head" but others think that you meant the "tail", while I talk about the "hands" but others mistaken that I was referring to the "legs". This is the same result if we start mashing up the meanings of DI, DB and DM.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • zimazima Posts: 54
    @mariah : on the page https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/melee-damage-increase/
    1) Bull fish pie increases melee damage by 5 per https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/cooking/ . Is this an increase to the base damage, a damage multiplier of 5%, or DI of 5%?
    2) Melee mastery passive on https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/skill-masteries/ says that it gives a damage bonus, and does not differentiate between DI or DM. The in-game gump says it is a Damage increase. https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/melee-damage-increase/ says it is a damage multiplier.
    3) Bushido spell Momentum strike, and Whirlwind with bushido skill, both give damage multipliers.
    4) Gargoyle racial bonus gives Damage Increase, not listed on https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/melee-damage-increase/
    5) Armor Pierce - it APPEARS to act as a damage multiplier,  but it does not state such in game, in the melee page, or the specials move page. https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/
    6) Force of nature - special move - gives damage increase of 50-100, affected by cap? 
    7) Infused throw. Description on https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/ says it will do more damage. Is this a damage multiplier or damage increase?
    8) Shadow strike - deals extra damage. Is this a damage multiplier or damage increase?
    https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/
    9) Whirlwind https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/ . Says it is a damage bonus. We have shown it is a damage multiplier. 

    I'm probably missing some, but I think this is what @gwen is referring to.

  • zimazima Posts: 54
    Remove the DI cap from items (which I assumed all would read as 100, since that is the cap), I also assumed that DI would be read as damage increase. There really is no confusion on the definitions of each damage bonus type. Rather, there are unclear descriptions of each that lend to confusing assumptions. 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    edited May 2021
    @Arroth_Thaiel ;https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/items/slayer-property-items/

    Specific slayers do 300% Damage, Super slayers do 200%  They were changed at some point a long time ago.
    Maybe they ate that 100% Global base modifier.  I found this out when I was asking about damage clarification a few months ago.

    The 2 Treasures of Dungeons have helped me figure out what to use and what I do not need.

       I used a an ogre slayer with fire damage on the Arctic Ogre Lords and I was maxxed out. EoO and consecrate did no extra damage.  Also Grapes and Fruit bowls, honor did no extra damage.
       I used an Ele slayer on the Poison eles in Deceit. EoO and Consecrate did do extra damage. Also Grapes and Fruit bowls did extra damage.
       For the Rams I used EoO, consecrate, perfection, edibles to get the most increase I could.

    So, when I try to explain the two types of damage to someone.  
        For the First 300% have your DI at 100% and your Anat, Tactics, weapon skill, str as high as you can get it.  
        For the second 300% use a specific slayer when you can, if not, use a super slayer. For things with no specific slayer you get a boost from Chivalry, Chivalry spells, perfection, grapes.

    Hopefully that breaks it down in an easy to digest manner, that is correct. hehe

    I hope you are correct on inspire, I thought it went to the the 100%DI.  Therefor being useless for me.

    Excellent chart!

  • zimazima Posts: 54
    DB is not a real thing. It is a category to differentiate skill damage increase from item damage increase. 200 cap comes from skill bonus, 100 cap from item bonus. 300 total. All I'm asking is to KEEP the 300, and remove the cap from item DI. So If I can get 200 Di on my suit, I only need to throw on skills for another 100 to reach 300. That would make things like that 75% Di ring actually useful. Gargoyles would be able to actually benefit from their racial bonus. (I am assuming that relatively few players have issues getting to 100 item DI) 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    So then we would need a new spreadsheet to calculate the needed skills for x value of DI.
    :)

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,407
    Whatever, just build in proper info into the character sheet so we don't need a spread sheet or search all over wiki and forum to find what the heck is what.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited May 2021
    @Pawain

    I think you are misunderstanding how the Slayers work (or maybe I am.....!).

    • Super Slayer Weapons will do double damage to the monsters they are meant for.
    • “Single Slayers” will do triple damage

    Don't confuse double/triple damage with %'s.

    ********

    Example 1:

    Weapon
    10 Base damage

    Super Slayer 100% Damage Modifier
    10 Base Damage x 100% Damage Modifier = 10 Damage Modifier

    Total Damage
    10 Base Damage + 10 Damage Modifier = 20 Total Damage (Or double the base damage).

    Another way to think about this is that the Global Base Modifier is always present, so in effect with a Super Slayer Equipped you have a Total Damage Modifier of 200%.
    100% Global Base Modifier
    100% Super Slayer Modifier
    --------
    200% Damage Modifier

    Total Damage
    10 Base Damage x 200% Damage Modifier = 20 Total Damage (or double the base damage).



    Example 2:

    Weapon
    10 Base Damage

    Slayer 200% Damage Modifier
    10 Base Damage x 200% Damage Modifier = 20 Damage Modifier

    Total Damage
    10 Base Damage + 20 Damage Modifier = 30 Total Damage (Or triple the base damage).

    Another way to think about this is that the Global Base Modifier is always present, so in effect with a Slayer Equipped you have a Total Damage Modifier of 300%.
    100% Global Base Modifier
    200% Slayer Modifier
    --------
    300% Damage Modifier

    Total Damage
    10 Base Damage x 300% Damage Modifier = 30 Total Damage (or triple the base damage).

    ********

    Your Base Damage (whatever it is) is multiplied by the Total Damage Modifier. If the Global Base Modifier was 0, and you had no other modifiers, you would multiply your Base Damage by 0. You would do no damage.

    Example: If you're character sheet said Damage 40-55, there was no Global Base Modifier, and you had no other modifiers, you would multiple 40 x 0 and 55 x 0 for a result of...0 - 0 Total Damage to Target.

    The Global Base Modifier 100% remains in effect as you always do 100% of your base damage.
    -Arroth
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    Yes I do not understand that 200% is not twice as much.

    Ok so either way if you use a Single slayer you are at the 300% cap right?
  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,140Moderator
    I am not a technical player, I did the best I could with the information I had, and asked for confirmation that it was correct, which I received. If someone would like to email me a re-write of that page I will be happy to update it, but when it comes to understanding it, on this topic I have to admit to being out of my depth.
    my email address is mariah4broadsword@gmail.com
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited May 2021
    Pawain said:

    Ok so either way if you use a Single slayer you are at the 300% cap right?
    Yes. Which is all anyone really needs to know! (And knowing is half the battle! ;) )

    Also, your explanation for discovering how to use what in the "Treasures of..." events is perfect and what I would suggest everyone does for actual gameplay. 


    Mariah said:
    I am not a technical player, I did the best I could with the information I had, and asked for confirmation that it was correct, which I received. If someone would like to email me a re-write of that page I will be happy to update it, but when it comes to understanding it, on this topic I have to admit to being out of my depth.
    my email address is mariah4broadsword@ gmail.com
    I personally don't see anything on that page that differs from the way we (as a player base) have understood damage calculations for the past decade or so. It matches what Logrus explained in 2012 and if the current team says that's still correct, then there ya go.



    A lot of the confusion probably stems from the tooltips using the wrong term, or using terms that have not been defined.

    It's also possible that some of the special moves and other bonuses are applying damage in other ways: to weapon base damage, or are factored in where the skills are, or are not subject to the DI and DM caps, or are applying damage outside of the above set of calculations as resisted or un-resisted direct damage, etc.

    One of the Dev's would have to go through every single thing that has the potential to change damage, define it all, and make sure all the tooltips correlate to those definitions.



    It's complicated enough now that I think trying to understand the whole damage system can just be set aside and we should return to whacking on stuff with different setups and seeing if our damage numbers go up.

    UO has come full circle.
    -Arroth
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    Thanks.
  • dvviddvvid Posts: 712
    @Arroth_Thaiel ;
    In regards to broken stratics link, if you change “www” to “community” it should work. 

    community.stratics.com/[rest of the url]
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    @Arroth_Thaiel what about killer on a Talisman.  Would those go in the Slayer category but with that %.  
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited May 2021
    @dvvid

    Thanks!
    https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/

    Come prepared if you open that thread.....



    @Yoshi
    Grapes of Wrath and Honor Self info. You think it's still valid?
    https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/post-2192380
    -Arroth
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 849
    edited May 2021
    Pawain said:
    @ Arroth_Thaiel what about killer on a Talisman.  Would those go in the Slayer category but with that %.  
    I believe so. I have never tested it specifically though.

    For those following along:
    100% Damage Modifier - Ice Slayer (Superslayer Talisman)
    37%   Damage Modifier - Frost Spider Killer 37% (Talisman)

    I think. Again, it would need to be confirmed. 
    -Arroth
  • CookieCookie Posts: 913
    edited May 2021
    @ dvvid

    Thanks!
    https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/

    Come prepared if you open that thread.....



    @ Yoshi
    Grapes of Wrath and Honor Self info. You think it's still valid?
    https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/post-2192380


    I thought I would have issues with that, it was easy :)

    I love his explanations - where is he now!

    We could use more of that sometimes.

    The Honour Self thing - I use it to stop aggression from monsters on me, I would not think it would give me 25% extra DM. It's one of those hidden things, we could do with knowing - ahh it does say on UOGuide - I just never noticed somehow.

    I see no reason it would not still be valid - easy enough to test I guess.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    Post 7 that is linked above, puts it all together.

    I can understand the chart better. 

    Someone also posted this part when I was asking:

    If max Damage Increase for items = 100
    If 120 Tactics then (120/1.6) + 6.25 = 81.25
    If 120 Anatomy then (120/2) +5 = 65
    If 150 Strength then (150*.3) +5 = 50
    For a total of 296.25 which means its impossible to hit 300 here unless you have LJ.

    Ill do an attempt with my melee guy:

    DI = 100
    Tactics = 110   Gives 75
    Anatomy = 100 Gives 55
    Strength = 140  Gives 47

    100 + 75 + 55 + 47 = 277  Since I have no room for more skills That's all I can get from that 300%. 
    I can chug a Greater Strength potion to get 3% more damage. Or eat a Petal for 1.5% more.
    If I managed to calc it correctly.

    So this is what the OP is asking for,  We get more from the capped DI.  I doubt we will get it because it would make it too easy to reach that 300% cap.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,344
    Some insights from Logrus on the way the Devs have to balance items:

    When asked why they do not put better items in the game:

    And thats the crux of the complaint isnt it.

    A simple answer too. Between imbuing and the new loot system, players are able to obtain items which are as good as, sometimes better than, and almost always more suitable and useful than any artifact a dev can create. So a dev making an item either has to make it ridiculously powerful (ie a must have) or do something that other items can't. I find that the ridiculously powerful approach is a slippery slope, as it basically makes competition from player crafting, or other loot pretty useless and creates high priced items that players grind to farm, or only the rich can buy. So I'd rather take the second approach and make a novelty item, that doesn't add to that slippery slope, while at the same time providing some utility to players who want to exploit it.

    When asked about the slots they choose to make items for:

    The reason many of the properties are placed where they are is exactly that reason KLOMP cited. Though the perspective is different.
    If you treat each of these bonuses as increases to a players effectiveness or capabilities, then sticking them on a relatively unused slot such as earrings, boots, or cloaks means that everyone will use them.
    Well that seems fair. Fair yes, when it comes to balance, fair, and balance don't always play the same game.
    If you gave a player a power rating, say 0 -200.
    The best player with the best gear would rate 200
    The best player with average gear would probably rate 120
    So they have a difference in power of 80

    Now give them both an item that makes them 10% more effective
    The player with the best gear is now at 220, and the player with average gear is 132, so though they've both gotten the same % buff, the gap between them has gone from 80 to 88. The gap has now increased by 10%.
    To help avoid the gap between players due to equipment rather than skill many of these properties are on slots where a player can sacrifice using items with great stats for an item which has ok stats and a unique effect.
    Well thats the thinking behind the items anway.

    Also with the new loot system many of these properties are available on more combinations of items, and have the potential to surpass pretty much every dev created artifact in game that occupies a craftable item slot.

    Most of the items went in prior to the new loot system, and I'm sure the dev team will continue to add new and better stuff. Personally I'm hoping not to see alot of artifacts. I'd rather see updates to existing skills, mechanics, AI and maybe some expansion to the crafting systems.

    Also he mentioned the focusing Bane crystal.  I may want to try that again on TC on a non slayer weapon.


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