Evasion combined with casting schools needs fixed!!

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Comments

  • SethSeth Posts: 1,222
    edited April 10
    Sorry just a short and quick interruption... I am actually happy to forego parrying defense for a higher sdi max from current 25 up to 35% excluding scribe, for a pure mage.
    Then I might pvp with a pure scribe mage with 45% sdi but no parrrying ability.

    End of interruption...

    We love bugs....
  • CookieCookie Posts: 790
    edited April 10

    I find it strange talking to you @covenantx.

    I don't think I've ever met you in battle, they say you are a mage, yet you seem to have zero experience of playing a mage, and only seem to understand dexxers - yet you don't even understand them, because again, I can tell you, they are completely the opposite to how you portray them. You don't seem to know the pvp scene in reality.

    You talk a lot of theory-craft, and a lot about meta's, yet don't really seem to have any practical experience.

    You have no understanding of being a Mage. Or even a Dexxer. Everything you say, is the other way around in reality.

  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 371
    Cookie said:

    I find it strange talking to you @ covenantx.

    I don't think I've ever met you in battle, they say you are a mage, yet you seem to have zero experience of playing a mage, and only seem to understand dexxers - yet you don't even understand them, because again, I can tell you, they are completely the opposite to how you portray them. You don't seem to know the pvp scene in reality.

    You talk a lot of theory-craft, and a lot about meta's, yet don't really seem to have any practical experience.

    You have no understanding of being a Mage. Or even a Dexxer. Everything you say, is the other way around in reality.

       Bud, you couldn't be more wrong.

     Mind pointing out anything specific out of what I said isn't true?



    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 371
    edited April 10
    Cookie said:

    Just Disarm them, a counter move available to both Mages and Warriors alike.

    I don't see the problem?

    Disarm, Dismount, Gank, no issue.

    Dismount, Disarm, Gank, even less issue :)

       Just disarm them, except they also have the highest chance to... wait for it.... not be hit because of Parry on top of DCI & weapon skill?    it's not reliable, everything a mage does except their weapon hit IS reliable.  

      I love how you add the word 'gank' to everything, because you're one of those pvpers that has the mentality  "If at first WE don't succeed, Add more people!"   when the real answer should be, "We need more practice".

    Cookie said:

    none of my entire team even use this set-up (and we had 30 out last night :)  ). It's only a few really boring non factors who do. Like I say - they hit Evade. they run off, I let them, I'm not chasing them all day, they will come back if they want PvP, or to beat me.
       
       30 people....   yeah I'm sure you learned the hard way not to chase people away from your group of 30..

      which shard is this?
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • CookieCookie Posts: 790
    edited April 10

    It's not that it isn't true, your stats are great, but you don't reflect the reality of Largescale pvp well.

    Chances of this and that - it only takes 1 success, to turn an entire fight. Edit - And there is 1 Special, more than any other, that turns large-scale pvp fights, and quite frankly often ruins them.

    Everything a mage does is reliable? Being stunned, dismounted, interrupted, bled, strangled, resisted, poison spell almost never works due to so many counters - petals, poison mastery, cures, bandage heals - that is the main lock a mage has - which is over-nullified, compared to all the others going. And then ironicaly - DP Dexxers get the highest poison lock which trumps everything and cures bug out on all the time and fail on (even with max 50EP can take a ton of cures and you're dead by then from 1 poison lock - often don't get time to cast arch cure). As well as Banes ofc. Trapped boxes for Para spell. It's not my definition of reliable. Ok, a dexxer may miss a few swings, but when they get the hit in, it's game changing. Mage having to stop to even cast - which clearly allows a dexxer to step right up and hit them, and the speed the game is played at these days. Edit - Today one of our Archers (in stats) got a beautiful AI or 2 in on a Bane Rider and 1 second he was there, the next he wasn't.

    Europa shard btw, we had a good pvp IDOC tonight.

    Last night, 2 Harries, one contested at prime time against the shard. God and Pro could have taken us out, but luckily they didn't ally this time, and fought each other, so we made it. We have those numbers, because we fight those numbers. Don't get hung up on the fact you only 1v1, or you play on a poor pvp shard like Atlantic. I have already stated - I prefer largescale battles, that is how I play, how I have always played - to win objectives - ever since the first days of factions. As far as I am concerned = PvP is a team event, that's why I say it is no issue to Disarm, etc etc - we do even have a Mage Bard in pvp, we have Trackers, we have the works, we don't just rely on 1 {Meta} Template, we play what we want and try and counter everything.

    I actually use the word gank to everything, because I'm being Ironic back to you lot. You guys always stick up for Dismount ganking and say how ok it is, so I do it now, and I'm taking the piss out of you all - because it's too easy, and ridiculous.




  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 371
    Cookie said:

    It's not that it isn't true, your stats are great, but you don't reflect the reality of Largescale pvp well.

    Chances of this and that - it only takes 1 success, to turn an entire fight.

      yeah I figured as much, but it's also ridiculous.

       First, you make no sense.   you're basically saying what I said is true (I know it is, but anyway), then not based in reality of 'large scale pvp, contradicting yourself immediately trollish behavior..   you remind me of a particular LotR fella that's been around.

     you're going to have to elaborate on this '1 success' because that highly depends on what it would be, because you speak vaguely about things leaving out important details except the ones that seemingly go against your point.  

    -You look like you have no idea what you're talking about... but then again
    maybe if I played with 30 people on my side, I could have literally any itty bitty tiny little success and the rest of the 29 people can continue carrying me, maybe i'd be saying the same things.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • CookieCookie Posts: 790
    edited April 10
    CovenantX said:
    Cookie said:

    It's not that it isn't true, your stats are great, but you don't reflect the reality of Largescale pvp well.

    Chances of this and that - it only takes 1 success, to turn an entire fight.

      yeah I figured as much, but it's also ridiculous.

       First, you make no sense.   you're basically saying what I said is true (I know it is, but anyway), then not based in reality of 'large scale pvp, contradicting yourself immediately trollish behavior..   you remind me of a particular LotR fella that's been around.

     you're going to have to elaborate on this '1 success' because that highly depends on what it would be, because you speak vaguely about things leaving out important details except the ones that seemingly go against your point.  

    -You look like you have no idea what you're talking about... but then again
    maybe if I played with 30 people on my side, I could have literally any itty bitty tiny little success and the rest of the 29 people can continue carrying me, maybe i'd be saying the same things.


    I pvp potentially 2 hours a day and have done for a long time (99?). I am equally happy fighting outnumbered, again don't get hung up on the numbers to try and make yourself look good or discredit me.

    I mentioned we have been at the top, we have been at the bottom, you chose to ignore that, and focus on the fact we can field 30 right now. Sometimes we could field 2, against 20. And we are still here - again, there is a circle in PvP, top guilds rise and fall, most go to the wall, we never have, but we do certainly rise and fall, and I'm always there pvping no matter what. I don't need any practice, and I don't need any lecturing from a 2 bit theory crafter who has had no influence on the game.

    I am not sitting there theory-crafting and talking about Meta's, I am playing the game, and feeling it, experiencing it. I talk about feelings and experiences, because that is what I am interested in - yes the stats matter in setting up correctly, but after that, it is about the emotion. I can tell instantly when something is off with the game, ie a new bug, because I can feel the difference in speed or power to normal, I don't need stats to tell me. That's for others to work out to be fair - I'm playing the game for the fun factor. I can tell instantly when something really isn't fun, because that is what I play for.

    I'm not speaking vaguely, this is what frustrates me about forum posters, if you pvp'd you would be seeing it, feeling it, you would know what I'm talking about, and I would not have to keep explaining every single little thing.

    By the way - I did go up and edit my post - to give an example of 1 success. It doesn't have to be just that, and you should have known, I should not have had to say.


    I'm going to add an Edit, because you are another poster who clearly needs it. I'll try and give an example. The figures are all made up, to make the example easy.

    Mage 70% chance of landing a spell - the spell will have 10% impact on a group fight.

    Warrior 10% chance of hitting - the strike will have a 70% chance of impacting the fight.

    So I am saying - you quote the Bold Stats straight from the books (Hence I don't disagree with this bit), lovely, but you don't have an understanding of the Impact (in Italics) on large-scale PvP, probably due to lack of experience, it is clear by the way you keep trashing team numbers, and your talk about Meta's. Rather than talking via your Genuine PvP experiences.



  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 371
    Cookie said:

    I pvp potentially 2 hours a day and have done for a long time (99?). I am equally happy fighting outnumbered, again don't get hung up on the numbers to try and make yourself look good or discredit me.

    I'm not speaking vaguely, this is what frustrates me about forum posters, if you pvp'd you would be seeing it, feeling it, you would know what I'm talking about, and I would not have to keep explaining every single little thing.

    By the way - I did go up and edit my post - to give an example of 1 success. It doesn't have to be just that, and you should have known, I should not have had to say.


    I'm going to add an Edit, because you are another poster who clearly needs it. I'll try and give an example. The figures are all made up, to make the example easy.

    Mage 70% chance of landing a spell - the spell will have 10% impact on a group fight.

    Warrior 10% chance of hitting - the strike will have a 70% chance of impacting the fight.

    So I am saying - you quote the Bold Stats straight from the books (Hence I don't disagree with this bit), lovely, but you don't have an understanding of the Impact (in Italics) on large-scale PvP, probably due to lack of experience, it is clear by the way you keep trashing team numbers.

      
        First, I don't need to make myself look good on the forums, nor do I need to discredit you, as you've done enough self-discrediting in the most recent locked thread already. (when it became an EC vs CC 'speed' debate).

      I like the 'mage 70% chance to land a spell /10% effective garbage you're spewing... (it's 100% btw) Being too far away & no line of sight are the only other possibilities and you control that because you choose when you want your spell to go off.


    a dexer hitting 10% of the time but being 70% of the effectiveness.... you must be playing some free-shard where dexers are actually good.... to get those numbers.... or you are simply taking the only 'hit' being dismount in your 30-player group as the only thing a dexer is useful for....   I don't disagree with it completely, but when that's the only use a dexer has.... and parry being everywhere is what causes it mostly, how is it not the problem?

     Lastly I'm not trashing team numbers at all, I don't mind big fights, but i do prefer smaller 1v1 - 5v5 etc though...  What I'm doing is trashing your attempt to balance combat mechanics solely based on 'Group Play', which parry & evade is geared towards.

     
    Break parry on mages they'll still be King in pvp,(like they were before parry became easily accessible)... but dexers would at least have a more fair shot One vs One when fighting mages.

     
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • sibblesibble Posts: 71
    edited April 11
    LearnMe said:

    I think the interesting thing when I see you debating the casters being OP and asking for dci reduction is why are all of your dexxers suits refined to lower your resist cap and increase your DCI to 60?
    1.  I don't bother fighting parry mages in a 1v1 anymore and...
    2.  The mages I do fight, I'm taking 5% extra damage from.  It's really not much.

    It's an unpopular opinion to refine for DCI and I feel like a lot of people haven't even tried it.

    (and it's 70 DCI)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 790
    edited April 11

    Right Covenant,

    I'm going to try and make this easy for you, then I'm going to give up, because there is only so much I can do.

    Mage reliability is not 100% - due to all the reasons I gave above - and I gave lots of reasons, was not vague, lets use resist, and interruptions as 2 prime examples, those spells are not going to land, or even complete, that is not 100% reliability. Having to stand fixed to a spot to be a target while casting, who lets you do that? If Mage Reliability were 100%, why does the Protection Spell, and Casting Focus even exist as a concept?

    Regarding Mage Impact of spells - what Impact does a Poison spell have? low level poison, I've already listed above about 4 different counters that everyone is using, it's at the point most Mages do not even cast poison. I do, I cast it about 50 times to try and use up their consumables. What impact does Paralyse have? What impact does flamestrike, or any other damage spell we have? They are all nice little spells for sure, but they do not affect a fight in themselves. It's actually got to the joke scenario for a mage, where our most Impactful spell is Wall of Stone...

    The dexxers I play against are actually very good, they are devils. :)

    Ok. Now for Warrior ability Impact as a comparison.

    Dismount is a game-changer. It radically alters the speed differentials of players, and UO PvP is all about speeds. It makes 1 player a very clear sitting duck and target.

    Lethal Poison level 5 is a game-changer. It is very hard to cure, and often bugs out even, meaning a Poison Lock really can be achieved for a quick death. For a real ingame example of how deadly this is, many times, I cannot land an arch-cure before the victim is dead, this is the speed we play at. I feel I should at least get a chance to counter this. This is why Banes are so deadly also.

    3 x Armour Ignore is a game-changer. It kills - very quickly, 3 x flamestrikes take an infinitely longer time to cast and do less damage.

    3 x Deathstrike is a game-changer. They either fix you to a spot to be ganked, or you take a serious amount of damage - again these can be spammed pretty much instantly.

    Mortal is a game-changer. Not over-powered, I'm not complaining, it has effective counters with apples and cleansing winds (bit slow this spell), but the point is, it's another Lock and when used effectively results in a good clean death.

    Splinter even is a game-changer. Again - I've stuck up for this ability a lot, so not complaining, but it slows you down, for many other specials to be released on you, often resulting in death.


    What do all of these have in common?

    They are Warrior specials. Mages don't have an equivalent. Mages quite often don't have a counter. Mages cannot apply anything as fast or as damaging as these abilities. These abilities have serious Impact on a fight - they lead to very rapid death. Nothing a Mage can do, has the Impact these abilities do. Speed differentials, Locks, Instant huge Damage, fixing players that need to move to the spot.

    Now I'm not complaining about them, and I've even defended them, (except Dismount which I think goes too far - and I wish Lethal Poison would be a bit less buggy).

    What is the primary Mage defence for all of these abilities? The answer is prevention is better than cure, so Parry.


  • CookieCookie Posts: 790
    edited April 11
    CovenantX said:
      
       
     
    Break parry on mages they'll still be King in pvp,(like they were before parry became easily accessible)... but dexers would at least have a more fair shot One vs One when fighting mages.

     


    You know what else became easily accessible when gear gave more Stats?

    It wasn't just Dex for Parry.

    It was Intelligence and Mana for unlimited Warrior Specials.

    I believe Warriors got by far the better deal out of this change in loot properties.

    As I have said, do you really believe Mages wanted to be using Parry, when there is so much more mage related stuff out there for them? But I do know warriors love chaining specials.

    This is the prime example that shows just how biased you are, you really are only seeing one side in all this.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 790
    sibble said:
    LearnMe said:

    I think the interesting thing when I see you debating the casters being OP and asking for dci reduction is why are all of your dexxers suits refined to lower your resist cap and increase your DCI to 60?
    1.  I don't bother fighting parry mages in a 1v1 anymore and...
    2.  The mages I do fight, I'm taking 5% extra damage from.  It's really not much.

    It's an unpopular opinion to refine for DCI and I feel like a lot of people haven't even tried it.

    (and it's 70 DCI)

    I think @learnme makes a good point here.

    I don't see why you don't fight parry mages, they only have enough mana for about 2 minutes, you have unlimited free resource swings, there ultimately is only 1 result in a dexxer v mage fight, unless the mage pulls out something genuinely clever and skilful like a trap.

    It's not that unpopular to refine for DCI.



  • CookieCookie Posts: 790
    edited April 11
    CovenantX said:
      
        First, I don't need to make myself look good on the forums, nor do I need to discredit you, as you've done enough self-discrediting in the most recent locked thread already. (when it became an EC vs CC 'speed' debate). 

    And ps. I won that debate hands down, mainly because I was completely correct on all counts :)

    I was glad the thread was locked, I was bored of it. And truthfully, I will get bored here soon, I've made my point as clearly as I can.

    I will equally win this one, until Mr Mod stops me in my tracks, which they are fully entitled to do. :)

    For a complete summary for you;

    Evasion can be nerfed, I don't care. But it seems an odd move to me.

    Parry - I am happy if it is taken off mages, we even have agreement here. But mages do need some counters to the issues I have raised, or it is a complete wipe-out, I know, because I am one of the last few who has been playing without Parry. And all the dexxers say to me, "god, I wouldn't do that". I also experience first hand non-stop, exactly what they can do to a mage without parry.


  • MarcusMarcus Posts: 9
    edited April 11
    Cookie whats your full template including + skills on the suit. Nevermind I see now you play Parry/Anat/Healing mage.


  • CookieCookie Posts: 790
    edited April 11
    Marcus said:
    Cookie whats your full template including + skills on the suit. Nevermind I see now you play Parry/Anat/Healing mage.



    Original Cookie = Pure Scribe mage, I'd love to get back to that. Deleted the account when AoS came out.

    Wraith - Parry Mage. This character was a bit boring, exactly like when I played it as an Evasion Mage.

    Alea Iacta Est = 6 x Pure Mage Spellweaver. Amazing character, not viable anymore in pvp sadly. Been my main for many years.

    Hermes - only commissioned recently - exactly as you say, well done, I don't exactly hide it :) It is doing the job described on the tin. Really like him, but would have no issues going back to more Mage related skills, but this is impossible under the current pvp direction re skills.

    I've played everything in between, including warriors, I actually love pure warriors, and I currently love my Parry Throwers for messing around on :)


    Edit - just to respond to the last bit - including +skills on the suit. I know this is very en-vogue to use +100 to +200 skills on a suit for pvp. I don't use +skills for quite a few reasons. 1. Bards can counter these skills, and render your character pretty weak. 2. The piece of armour you have +skills on can wear out, leaving your character messed up. 3. Having +Skills on a suit, means a really high opportunity cost of not having all the other really useful properties you would want. Others see this differently, and that is fine if that is how they want to play.


  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 378
    If there was enough good players left in UO, templates would be more offensive and less defensive.  Todays pvp is bad decision players playing with high defense on such things as evade mages and wrestle parry mages.   Easy button survivability templates which ruins the real pvp from returning to glory.  Evasion was never meant for mages, just return it to how its supposed to be.
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 371

    Cookie said:

    Right Covenant,

    3 x Deathstrike is a game-changer. They either fix you to a spot to be ganked, or you take a serious amount of damage - again these can be spammed pretty much instantly.

      ok  I can't take you seriously after reading this...  

     most of the things you listed are 'weapon-based' attacks, which ALWAYS have a chance to miss. armor ignore does less damage than flamestrike at least after curse....

       you add 'ganked' in there not even trying to hide the fact it's multiple people.   you act like, because of fights where you're outnumbered, you need some game mechanic to help you counter it... that's the problem with Parry & Evade right now, they do make it 'easy' to fight groups of people, because they allow you to mitigate so much damage... Passively.
     
    Cookie said:
    Marcus said:
    Cookie whats your full template including + skills on the suit. Nevermind I see now you play Parry/Anat/Healing mage.



    Original Cookie = Pure Scribe mage, I'd love to get back to that. Deleted the account when AoS came out.

    Wraith - Parry Mage. This character was a bit boring, exactly like when I played it as an Evasion Mage.

    Alea Iacta Est = 6 x Pure Mage Spellweaver. Amazing character, not viable anymore in pvp sadly. Been my main for many years.

    Hermes - only commissioned recently - exactly as you say, well done, I don't exactly hide it :) It is doing the job described on the tin. Really like him, but would have no issues going back to more Mage related skills, but this is impossible under the current pvp direction re skills.

    I've played everything in between, including warriors, I actually love pure warriors, and I currently love my Parry Throwers for messing around on :)


    Edit - just to respond to the last bit - including +skills on the suit. I know this is very en-vogue to use +100 to +200 skills on a suit for pvp. I don't use +skills for quite a few reasons. 1. Bards can counter these skills, and render your character pretty weak. 2. The piece of armour you have +skills on can wear out, leaving your character messed up. 3. Having +Skills on a suit, means a really high opportunity cost of not having all the other really useful properties you would want. Others see this differently, and that is fine if that is how they want to play.


       You are quite the outlier here.

       Spellweaving-Mage is not viable.........?    no offense, but coming from a guy that says they had 30 people on the other night, I swear, you sound more and more like someone that doesn't play UO each time you post.

     also notice how most of your chars are mages, that's a shocker. I know.... most of mine are too, because dexers f-ing suck in pvp compared to ANY MAGE.

       under your 'Hermes' character, I assume that's the healing/anat/parry mage as described in someone elses post?   literally all skills that make it easier to fight dexers,  I think it's funny that you say, pure-parry-mage (that used to be an evasion mage) is boring to play,   but anat/heal/parry is somehow not. just think of how boring it might be for a dexer.

      your edited bits... 
     1. you don't use skill increase because Bards can counter it.... not because they do. but because it's possible.. gotcha.  
     2. items wear out, so don't build your character around skill jewels.. I agree with this, but not so much for pvp....  it's more of a pve thing, antiques (non-weapons) last forever in pvp...
     3. skills on suits means you're sacrificing other useful properties...   oh man...  i don't know what to say about that one...  been this way since AoS, it's just scaled up with the amount of mods.
      tbh, kinda pointless to mention # 3.


    Cookie said:
    CovenantX said:
      
        First, I don't need to make myself look good on the forums, nor do I need to discredit you, as you've done enough self-discrediting in the most recent locked thread already. (when it became an EC vs CC 'speed' debate). 

    And ps. I won that debate hands down, mainly because I was completely correct on all counts :)

    I was glad the thread was locked, I was bored of it. And truthfully, I will get bored here soon, I've made my point as clearly as I can.

    I will equally win this one, until Mr Mod stops me in my tracks, which they are fully entitled to do. :)

    For a complete summary for you;

    Evasion can be nerfed, I don't care. But it seems an odd move to me.

    Parry - I am happy if it is taken off mages, we even have agreement here. But mages do need some counters to the issues I have raised, or it is a complete wipe-out, I know, because I am one of the last few who has been playing without Parry. And all the dexxers say to me, "god, I wouldn't do that". I also experience first hand non-stop, exactly what they can do to a mage without parry.

       I agree... your points can't get any clearer... they're wrong, and that's clear,
      might be a  'win' in your book, but in any reasonable person's book, it's a loss.

       a Mage doesn't need any additional counters if parry & evasion is removed from them.
      weapon skill / wrestling / mage-weapon is plenty.   But, lets see some of these suggestions for 'Counters' to... 'replace' parry/evade on mages?

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • sibblesibble Posts: 71
    edited April 12
    Cookie said:

    And ps. I won that debate hands down, mainly because I was completely correct on all counts :)

    You think you're correct on a bunch of statements that you're sorely wrong on.
    Cookie said:

    I don't think I've ever met you in battle, they say you are a mage, yet you seem to have zero experience of playing a mage, and only seem to understand dexxers - yet you don't even understand them, because again, I can tell you, they are completely the opposite to how you portray them. You don't seem to know the pvp scene in reality.

    You talk a lot of theory-craft, and a lot about meta's, yet don't really seem to have any practical experience.

    You have no understanding of being a Mage. Or even a Dexxer. Everything you say, is the other way around in reality.

    I cringe reading your assumptions of myself and other players.  Just because you don't share the same opinion as someone else, doesn't make them dumb or inexperienced.

    Here's some of my gameplay over the years: youtube.com/c/sibbleTV/videos

    You don't know me as well as I don't know you.  Stop assuming players' experience.

  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,562Moderator
    There is valuable feedback here, argument and counter argument. However I believe the thread is now becoming too personal.
This discussion has been closed.