Evasion combined with casting schools needs fixed!!

The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 392
Pvp will never get better until this is fixed.  Dont allow evade period when combined with magery, mysticism or chiv above 50 skill.  Evasion should be for one tile pvpers only in order to give it balance!!
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Comments

  • CookieCookie Posts: 910
    edited April 9

    I have a sort of sympathy with you, I get your point, but overall, I just don't find this OP in any way.

    It's a defensive skill, defensive skills are in the main completely obliterated by offensive skills. I play against many Evade mages, and think nothing of them, same with Bok mages tbh.

    Having said that, I do agree to a point, that some things just don't go together that well, shouldn't really have been put together because the efficiencies they give are too much.

    But if you go down the Evade Mage route, there are plenty of equal routes to go down.

    Dismount on any weapon at all - it should only be bola, not a warrior skill - why - because mages don't have a complimentary skill, or counter.

    Deathstrike on a mounted character - again, originally, only really meant for a ninja on foot, it was designed to be quite OP to make up for the fact the character was on foot. For this reason - I'm ok with Bolas, but not much else (Dismount being another OP skill but the character is on foot).

    The classic in PvM - Necro with Chiv/Necro with Bushido - the Sampire - this is the ultimate nono, which proves the point beyond any doubt that some things just were not meant to be together. The Healing skill, should never have been over-shadowed by these skills.

    So on one hand, I get your point, on the other, It doesn't make much difference to the group pvp I fight in - if they hit Evade, we just wait, then kill them when it's gone/ or use dexxers and dismount them and gank them anyway. It's a bit like Spellweavers shield/gift of renewal spells.

    And No, I don't play Evade mages - I did try it once, and found it boring, I accept it is for boring mages. :)

    {Although I cannot talk right now, I've retired my mage spellweaver to play a parry anat/healer mage - the sheer volume and damage output of warriors/(and banes until recently)/dismounts is just too much, having to go full defensive in the current climate}.

    But I cannot see the Devs doing anything about it - they really have pursued a policy of being able to combine everything - for better or worse. And it doesn't bother me.

  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 392
    Magery by far is the most powerful thing in UO, it doesnt need any compliments such as parry or evade.  Only skill in game with 64 options and theres plenty to choose from when dismounted.  Teleport, invis, wall yourself off from opponent, invis, protection, mini heal greater heal.  Only thing about dismount that is OP is No dachi, another weapon used more on mages then on dexxers.  WHy do you ask, cause magery and defense is most OP thing in UO.  Without keeping dexxer things seperate from casting schools the game becomes unbalanced.  One tile dexxers have literally been wiped from UO.  There has to be a change to balance it and removing evasion from casting schools and from archers/ throwers who run a melee skill is the first step back to balance.  There is more that needs fixed but this is first priority.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 910
    edited April 9
    Magery by far is the most powerful thing in UO, it doesnt need any compliments such as parry or evade.  Only skill in game with 64 options and theres plenty to choose from when dismounted.  Teleport, invis, wall yourself off from opponent, invis, protection, mini heal greater heal.  Only thing about dismount that is OP is No dachi, another weapon used more on mages then on dexxers.  WHy do you ask, cause magery and defense is most OP thing in UO.  Without keeping dexxer things seperate from casting schools the game becomes unbalanced.  One tile dexxers have literally been wiped from UO.  There has to be a change to balance it and removing evasion from casting schools and from archers/ throwers who run a melee skill is the first step back to balance.  There is more that needs fixed but this is first priority.


    Magery is the most versatile thing in UO, not the most powerful. It is not great 1v1, but it scales up in teams. Yes it is superb, and so it should be, everything else is brainless in comparison.

    If warriors need parry or evade - then so do mages, they are all on the receiving end of the same damage output and types. All the warriors I know, rip apart anyone without Parry. If you don't have Parry, you may as well not pvp in my experience, you will last all of 5 seconds then weaken your team. Evade - not so much an issue. I usually see the guys using it as cowardly, they are usually just running away, only bothered with their own survival rather than pvp, I let them run away, they will come back if they want pvp or to win the objective I'm completing.

    I see plenty of 1 tile dexxers. Healing itself is still a very good skill in pvp. Deathstrike, Splinter, Dismount, Poison, AI, they have plenty of powerful options. But as I say, victim of their own success, it got to a point, everyone was using only Dexxers v us, so we all had to get Parry, yes, we've adapted and made it harder for them, we've reduced our SDI, we've reduced our Mana and Casting ability, to just survive them.

    And whilst I disagree with you re Mages/Warriors, I still have a certain agreement that some things should be kept apart. I would actually have no issue at all, with Evade being taken off Mages - none of my entire team even use this set-up (and we had 30 out last night :)  ). It's only a few really boring non factors who do. Like I say - they hit Evade. they run off, I let them, I'm not chasing them all day, they will come back if they want PvP, or to beat me.

  • MarcusMarcus Posts: 9
    I think the fact that you run in a group of 30 players to PvP in 2021 showcases how bad you are at this game.

    The fact that none of your 30 use evasion also showcases how bad your group is at the game.

    Your opinions on PvP should not be considered.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 910
    edited April 9
    Marcus said:
    I think the fact that you run in a group of 30 players to PvP in 2021 showcases how bad you are at this game.

    The fact that none of your 30 use evasion also showcases how bad your group is at the game.

    Your opinions on PvP should not be considered.


    Or it showcases we are a worldwide team who have been together, and been at the top, and the bottom for over 15 years of solid pvp, many of us are ex-factioners from the beginning of factions, we are friends who socialise in the game together, and do an extraordinary amount of content. :) We have pvmers, and pvpers, and we take in new players and help them progress, and we lose Vets as we go sometimes also, sadly.

    Right now, we are at the top, come and fight us. :)

    Last night after work, Despise, Despise, Oaks, Harry, Terathon, Roofs, we are a Felucca guild, who are highly active and experienced, we play a ton in Felucca, and quite happily take on the server when we can.

    I've liked everything you said until then, haha.

    Nevermind, I'll let you off. :)

    I don't do Yew Gate pvp, it is boring, though some of our guild do, I prefer big objective content. I do think pvpers should state their templates, and pvp style when they post, it would enable greater understanding of their perspective.

    And ps, the 30 was a bit of an anomaly, it just happened, we often have 3, we often fight way outnumbered.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 910
    edited April 9
    Ok - explain what scenario Evade/Casting is an issue for you?
  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    edited April 9
    Pvp will never get better until this is fixed.  Dont allow evade period when combined with magery, mysticism or chiv above 50 skill.  Evasion should be for one tile pvpers only in order to give it balance!!


    Agreed, here's why...

    1.  I don't think it's possible to balance weapon swings vs. casting spells, it's like apples and oranges.  Weapons can miss and be blocked.  Spells can't miss but can be interrupted.  With those two facts, I feel safe to say that mages are superior in the overall "mage vs dexer" debate.  You could also argue that weapon abilities have a more intense effect on players in PVP than spells do, for example, you can't dismount with a spell.  In order to interrupt a spell, they have to be hit, and there are ways to reduce the chance of being hit on top of the chance the weapon user has to make a hit.

    Let's add to this...

    2.  Parry is a game mechanic that you let completely block a weapon attack or special ability.  There is no skill in the game that allows you to do that vs. spells passively.  The other side to this for spells is Resisting Spells - they are in no way alike.  Resisting Spells reduce the intensity and duration of debuffs, among a few other niche things like resisting paralysis.  One mechanic negates the other's ability completely and the other reduces intensity.  Another win for the mages IMO.

    I love the fact that you can make anything you want in this game, but I feel there should be limitations because of #1 and #2 above.  Parry Mages are already a tough opponent for Weapon users alone, then give them an Evasion cooldown and it almost feels like a pointless fight.

    Yes, there are templates that are going to counter other templates and that is normal.  I feel like an Evasion Mage counters everything though.

    I would like to see block chances reduced (not removed) based on the level of casting skills.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 910
    edited April 9

    Just Disarm them, a counter move available to both Mages and Warriors alike.

    I don't see the problem?

    Disarm, Dismount, Gank, no issue.

    Dismount, Disarm, Gank, even less issue :)

  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    edited April 9
    Cookie said:

    Just Disarm them, a counter move available to both Mages and Warriors alike.

    I don't see the problem?

    Disarm, Dismount, Gank, no issue.

    Dismount, Disarm, Gank, even less issue :)

    How do you disarm a wrestle bush/parry mage?  Is wrestling even useful to any dexer template - barely?  Meanwhile, they can disarm everyone else, while having max block chance, and evasion cooldown, and free cast cause they're never being hit.

    What about that isn't OP to you?

    Again I'm not saying completely remove it, but I think a block chance nerf on evasion for casting users would be beneficial to PVP.
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    edited April 9
    Help to understand

    So a Bush/Parry/Evade/Mage needs 100+ skills in Bush/mage/parry/tact/anat to get the full effect of Evade and also has to have 80+ dex and has to have a weapon equipped.  All this for a special that lasts 5-8 sec and has a 20 sec cool down and is subject to diminishing returns in pvp.

    #1 why is this all of a sudden an OMG this is so OP when it has been in the game for so long?
    #2 during the cool down there is no Evade and you still can't kill him then IMHO you need to look at your set up.
    #3 Why is it that a Bush/Sword/Tact/Anat/Parry is not OP considering Evade is mainly a defense against a weapons attack.
    #4 doesn't disarm cancel Evade until you rearm and what is it that this OP build is evading?
  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    edited April 9
    Bilbo said:
    Help to understand

    So a Bush/Parry/Evade/Mage needs 100+ skills in Bush/mage/parry/tact/anat to get the full effect of Evade and also has to have 80+ dex and has to have a weapon equipped.
    Not sure where the tactics/anatomy came from unless I'm missing something.
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    sibble said:
    Bilbo said:
    Help to understand

    So a Bush/Parry/Evade/Mage needs 100+ skills in Bush/mage/parry/tact/anat to get the full effect of Evade and also has to have 80+ dex and has to have a weapon equipped.
    Not sure where the tactics/anatomy came from unless I'm missing something.
    3 to 6 seconds with a 2 second bonus if your Bushido is above 100.0 and both Tactics and Anatomy are 100.0 or better

    https://www.uoguide.com/Evasion

    This had a better write up on it than anybody else and I have never known this site to put out misinformation.
  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    edited April 9
    Gotcha... forgot about the duration boost.  The bonus is nice but really comes down to the player's reaction time.  3 seconds seems long enough to evade a dump if that's the minimum possible duration and the maximum of 8 seconds seems kinda excessive.

    Also, generally speaking, people go with the minimum required skill they need so they can fit as much into their templates as possible.  What I'm saying is... how many Bokuto Mages do you think are running Anatomy?  I could be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure none of them.

    If a Bokuto Mage with Anatomy gets disarmed, I'm wondering if the Anatomy+Eval=Wrestling rule will apply to Block/Evasion.  Normally if a mage is disarmed they have no weapon skill, but if they have Anatomy+Eval that counts as a weapon skill for calculating hit/miss.  I'm wondering if that also spills over to not needing a shield with Bushido.

    In short, I agree if they're dumping all that skill then fine.  The people I've run into don't.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 910
    edited April 9

    Any mage who takes up Parry, has seriously limited his casting ability. He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.

    He has also reduced his SDI from 35 with Inscription which is a lovely place to be, and what is really required for a mage to kill stuff easily, to 25 because he has lost Inscription, then down to 20 SDI because he is now a Non Pure Mage due to Parry. So he has lost a ton of his damage output. This was a bad nerf to Mages, and designed to stop us using Parry, because so many Dexxers complained the last time around. I said very clearly at the time, it will not make any difference, Mages will still use Parry - because they are forced to - to stand any chance. So this Evasion Mage - is just another step up in defensiveness - why do you think players are playing this defensively? Do you think they want to? Most players would prefer to be out there with their Damage Output nuking things, which is what the Warriors have. At some point you have to address the elephant in the room, and answer why so many Mages are being so defensive, and I've been trying for years to help you out here.

    The point is, with the really noticeable loss of Mage casting and damage abilities - these mages cannot kill anything, and are really defensive. They are relying on their team-mates to have synergy. They are not a threat on their own, and like I say, usually spend their time running away.

    I also even say - I don't know anyone decent who uses one, you can nerf away for all I care, I just don't get why it is such a problem for you. These Mages have been nerfed into the ground, and are still going.


  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    sibble said:
    Gotcha... forgot about the duration boost.  The bonus is nice but really comes down to the player's reaction time.  3 seconds seems long enough to evade a dump if that's the minimum possible duration and the maximum of 8 seconds seems kinda excessive.

    Also, generally speaking, people go with the minimum required skill they need so they can fit as much into their templates as possible.  What I'm saying is... how many Bokuto Mages do you think are running Anatomy?  I could be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure none of them.

    If a Bokuto Mage with Anatomy gets disarmed, I'm wondering if the Anatomy+Eval=Wrestling rule will apply to Block/Evasion.  Normally if a mage is disarmed they have no weapon skill, but if they have Anatomy+Eval that counts as a weapon skill for calculating hit/miss.  I'm wondering if that also spills over to not needing a shield with Bushido.

    In short, I agree if they're dumping all that skill then fine.  The people I've run into don't.
    Then you are also forgetting about the 20 sec cool down that they can not use evasion.
  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    edited April 9
    Cookie said:

    He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.

    I don't know one person who still runs Meditation period (with or without parry), nor do I know one mage that has mana issues.

    Bilbo said:

    Then you are also forgetting about the 20 sec cool down that they can not use evasion.
    I'm not sure what Higgs is asking for.

    All I'm asking for is a reduced block chance and reduced evade chance for people whose templates run casting skills - not getting rid of it completely.  Now that you mention cooldown, maybe it should be longer for casters instead of reducing block chance.

    The points I've raised in this thread aren't solely on Evasion which I understand this thread is about.  I'm extending the thought to Parry and blocking altogether.

    I feel a dexer has 0 chance of fighting a mage who can also block attacks.  There is no opposite condition in which a mage would have 0 chance of fighting a dexer.
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    edited April 9
    sibble said:
    Cookie said:

    He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.

    I don't know one person who still runs Meditation period (with or without parry), nor do I know one mage that has mana issues.

    Bilbo said:

    Then you are also forgetting about the 20 sec cool down that they can not use evasion.
    I'm not sure what Higgs is asking for.

    All I'm asking for is a reduced block chance and reduced evade chance for people whose templates run casting skills - not getting rid of it completely.  Now that you mention cooldown, maybe it should be longer for casters instead of reducing block chance.

    The points I've raised in this thread aren't solely on Evasion which I understand this thread is about.  I'm extending the thought to Parry and blocking altogether.

    I feel a dexer has 0 chance of fighting a mage who can also block attacks.  There is no opposite condition in which a mage would have 0 chance of fighting a dexer.
    I still do not know what exactly a Bush/Parry/Mage is evading, can you give me an example of the type of damage he is evading.  Wep, Spell, Arrow and why a Bush/Parry/Dexer couldn't do the exact same thing esp an Archer/Thrower

     So Parry - 100, Bush - 100, Dex - 80 you get
    Chance of blocking with a shield: 5%
    Chance of blocking with a 1-handed weapon: 25%
    Chance of blocking with a 2-handed weapon: 29%

    https://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/parrying.php

    Evasion

    Puts you in an evasive stance for a short duration, allowing you to parry magical attacks like dragon breath and energy bolt.

    And a Dexer can also run evasion and they both have to use a wep and a Dexer can run Chiv with EoO so who is really at the disadvantage if the Dexer lands 1 blow.  If a Dexer can't take one hit from a Parry/Mage then they really have a problem.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 910
    edited April 9
    sibble said:
    I don't know one person who still runs Meditation period (with or without parry), nor do I know one mage that has mana issues.


    I have mana issues, and I have maxed every way of getting mana without Med. - there you go, 1 mage :)

    I can name others, but won't.

    You are right, we've extended the conversation - re Evade, like I even say, you can do what you want with it. I'm just not sure why it is an issue. I'm happy to sign out here, I'm not in any major disagreement with you, and have nothing invested in this. But sometimes on changes like this, I'd like to know the real thinking and scenario behind it, because like I say, I play a lot, and am not seeing this.

  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    edited April 9
    Bilbo said:

    And a Dexer can also run evasion and they both have to use a wep and a Dexer can run Chiv with EoO so who is really at the disadvantage if the Dexer lands 1 blow.  If a Dexer can't take one hit from a Parry/Mage then they really have a problem.
    Not sure where the Chivalry came into the discussion, if you're mentioning it as "dexers have chiv mages don't have chiv" thing then, kinda weird.

    The Damage Increase bonus from Enemy of One is subject to the DI PVP cap.  Also, I believe it has a maximum increase of 16% in PVP?  Who is dying to 1 hit from a dexer?

    Anyways, I've posted my points.

    If we can't agree that casters are superior in the dexers vs casters debate then this will never end.
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    You still haven't really said what a mage is evading that a dexer can't and with all the dexer builds out there what spells is a mage throwing that a decked out PvPer can not take.  Why is a Bush/Mage more powerful than a Bush/Archer/Thrower in PvP both are using ranged damage.  We have sammies sampires or what ever you want to call them taking down champ spawns solo but I have yet to hear about a Bush/Mage doing the same.  Seriously if they are that OP then why isn't it the goto build for everything in Fel?  If a Bush/mage can evade everything thrown at them even from another Bush/Mage then a bush/dexter can do the same thing even from a Bush/Mage.

    Alls people are saying is they are OP with no real examples.  What spells/equipment against what spells/equipment/builds with results.  Say what ever you want but without hard facts/data then they are just words.
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 467
    Cookie said:

    Magery is the most versatile thing in UO, not the most powerful. It is not great 1v1, but it scales up in teams. Yes it is superb, and so it should be, everything else is brainless in comparison.

    If warriors need parry or evade - then so do mages,

      
        Magery is both the most versatile & powerful skill in UO (pvp).

    it scales up in teams, is this real?  Everything scales up in teams... except mages (or spellcasters in general) scale up better than any non-caster templates do, because of their range (they don't trip on each other as much as a group of dexers would) & of course their inability to miss... hence evasion.

     Warriors don't need parry.   that's the best part.   warriors can disarm other warriors completely neutralizing their offense AND defense, they can walk away from a warrior to reduce their sustained dps. and if they do have parry it's 100% because bushido's Evasion requires Parry to survive magery.

    Parry is literally only a useful standalone skill for spell-casters.  you won't see a successful template with Parry that doesn't heavily rely on spells for both healing and or damage output.

    Parry has been more a Mages skill since shame loot (and global loot) allowed every possible armor piece to have Dex bonus on it, but Parry should mostly be a Warrior skill, its of course... anything but that.

    When's the last time you saw a parry warrior using a shield?    you know what's even better than that?  Magery+Parry +/- Evade + Potions & Refinements.   I can't believe this has been so broken for the last like 5+ years now, without any meaningful attempt to be fixed.

    first they took away 5% SDI from focus spec (30% down to 25%), then an additional -5% SDI when Parry was added to the focus break list....  but guess what... it wasn't the mages offense that needed to be nerfed... it was and always has been their Defense, I said that back when this was being discussed on stratics before these changes.

    Then more recently adding diminishing returns on evasion?  C'mon man... That is Magery vs Magery... an evade Dexer is normally running away when they're evading...


    Please Break parry for mages and the only real problem left would be about 90-95% of the pvp-base is using one or more illegal programs.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    edited April 9
    Bilbo said:

    Alls people are saying is they are OP with no real examples.  What spells/equipment against what spells/equipment/builds with results.  Say what ever you want but without hard facts/data then they are just words.
    That pretty much goes for you too @Bilbo what real example have you given?

    The only example you've given is a dexer running Chiv and casting Enemy of One which proves exactly what?

    I gave clear and valid explanations in my first post as to why there is an unbalance.  You're choosing to ignore them and talk about Enemy of One.  Hello?

    My only guess is you play a Bokuto Mage and are clearly upset about having changes made to your template.  That's an assumption though, of course, but I'm acknowledging it.

    Bilbo said:

    Seriously if they are that OP then why isn't it the goto build for everything in Fel?

    IT IS  :D 

    I don't understand how some people come up with some of these opinions...  Like do we play 2 different games?  I've PVP'd on ATL, LS, GL, Cats, and Chessy, over the past 15 years with some breaks, originally starting on LS in 97.  Not so much recently, maybe only about 4-8hrs a week on ATL.  Currently running with number one PVP guild on the most populated shard.  My opinions are based on my experiences with these shards during those times.

    I know @CovenantX he's played a mage so much in UO that he's become one IRL.  For him to come on the official forms and make a statement that maybe something may need to be nerfed in the case of a mage template then you know something's wrong.

    CovenantX said:  
        
    Please Break parry for mages and the only real problem left would be about 90-95% of the pvp-base is using one or more illegal programs.
    What % is casting focus and poison immunity?
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    Parry/Mages are not the goto build for taking down Champs and it sure isn't the goto for the Roof or Events.

    I stopped PvPing way before AoS but I PvE, less demanding on the fingers/wrists, and yes I have a Mage and it does nowhere the damage and of my Malee/Chiv chars do and I haven't met a Mage PvE that really gave me concern and in do way stood up against my Chiv/Archer.

    So your saying that there is no build out there that can touch your Bush/Mage when evade at max lasts 8 secs with a cool down of 20 sec that they can not evade, so what the other char is waiting for you to regain evade before attacking again.

    I reread your first post and there are ZERO facts in it.  Exactly what where you evading and what happened to you after the evade wore off until you could reuse it, did you just run all over for 20 secs.  Takes me a lot less time to heal myself than 20 sec so effectively you have done nothing to your attacker because they healed/spell wore off or what ever whilke you were hiding from them.
  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    edited April 9
    Bilbo said:
    Parry/Mages are not the goto build for taking down Champs and it sure isn't the goto for the Roof or Events.
    My friend, we are on two different planets.  Someone running into a Felucca dungeon spinning up a champion and killing it - this is not PVP.  What player versus player interaction occurs in that scenario?
    Bilbo said:

    I stopped PvPing way before AoS but I PvE
    Yes, I completely understand now.  Question, why do you feel you have an opinion on the current state of PVP when you don't PVP anymore?

    The problem is we're experiencing two different games.  With that, I'm going to see myself out of this discussion because at this point any dev that possibly read this thread can understand what's going on.

    No offense to you or any other non-PVPers, you can't understand the current state of PVP unless you've experienced it nightly over at least a few months.  This is the problem PVPers have had with the game for YEARS.  The devs account for non-PVPer opinions regarding PVP, and change the game.
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 467
    edited April 9
    sibble said:

    What % is casting focus and poison immunity?
       Casting focus = a chance to avoid spell interruption when being hit While casting a spell. 0-12% 17% w/inscribe.  peacing bard songs also stack to bring it up higher, but people don't do it enough to focus on bard songs in pvp.

     Poison immunity =  a chance poison is cured without any effort whenever poison ticks for any damage, scales with poisoning skill.   - orange petals essentially do this already. only breaking with high-level is inflicted on a orange-petal user.   - I don't know the exact chance this immunity kicks in, but I poisoned my 80.0 poisoning mage with a human 0 (20.0) mage, it literally cured 46 times in a row.

    despite the patch notes saying you need to cure via non-potion means before it should kick in. -but the patch notes are often wrong. so that's not a surprise....


     Those things effect 'mage dueling' that's why I still have it in my signature... but barely anyone duels (that aspect of pvp is basically  DEAD AF) anymore anyway, so it has become irrelevant unfortunately... (things go on for too long without being addressed).



    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • sibblesibble Posts: 79
    @CovenantX bro u think I've been gone away that long?

    I was asking what percentage of those 2 things attribute to the 90-95% of the pvp problems.

     :D 
  • CookieCookie Posts: 910
    edited April 9
    CovenantX said:
      
        Magery is both the most versatile & powerful skill in UO (pvp).

    it scales up in teams, is this real?  Everything scales up in teams... except mages (or spellcasters in general) scale up better than any non-caster templates do, because of their range (they don't trip on each other as much as a group of dexers would) & of course their inability to miss... hence evasion.

    I meant it scales up better, why would I have made this point otherwise? It has scaling efficiencies.

     Warriors don't need parry.   that's the best part.   warriors can disarm other warriors completely neutralizing their offense AND defense, they can walk away from a warrior to reduce their sustained dps. and if they do have parry it's 100% because bushido's Evasion requires Parry to survive magery.

    Fair point, lucky warriors.

    Parry is literally only a useful standalone skill for spell-casters.  you won't see a successful template with Parry that doesn't heavily rely on spells for both healing and or damage output.

    My 2 sons both use Parry Healing Throwers that are working very nicely. Not the most sophisticated, but very reliable, solid and versatile actually. So strictly speaking, they don't use spells, but they are ranged I admit.
    In the past, I have used a Glenda Shield Bash warrior that was pretty successful, but it was a dexxer with 2 moves, I got bored and moved on.


    Parry has been more a Mages skill since shame loot (and global loot) allowed every possible armor piece to have Dex bonus on it, but Parry should mostly be a Warrior skill, its of course... anything but that.

    I'll give you this. Who really thinks I want Parry on my Mage? I really don't, I shouldn't have it. I'd rather Inscription, Poison, Spell-weaving, Alchemy, something else. Why do I have it - because I, like every other mage, is forced to. I've only just switched back to Parry Mage, because I've had to. Banes, Dismounts, Bok mages, infinite Deathstrikers etc.

    When's the last time you saw a parry warrior using a shield?    you know what's even better than that?  Magery+Parry +/- Evade + Potions & Refinements.   I can't believe this has been so broken for the last like 5+ years now, without any meaningful attempt to be fixed.
    Glenda Shield Bash warriors. Parry Throwers. :)

    first they took away 5% SDI from focus spec (30% down to 25%), then an additional -5% SDI when Parry was added to the focus break list....  but guess what... it wasn't the mages offense that needed to be nerfed... it was and always has been their Defense, I said that back when this was being discussed on stratics before these changes.

    I also disagreed with this at the time, but for differing reasons. I correctly said, that no matter how much they nerf the offence, Mages will still use Parry - because they NEED to. So now, no matter how you look at it, Parry mages have been nerfed, and are still playing that template - why?

    Then more recently adding diminishing returns on evasion?  C'mon man... That is Magery vs Magery... an evade Dexer is normally running away when they're evading...

    @ Bleak

    Please Break parry for mages and the only real problem left would be about 90-95% of the pvp-base is using one or more illegal programs.

    Breaking Parry will not fix Mages, it will wipe the whole class out in pvp. You need to make it so Mages do not actually NEED Parry, and voluntarily give it up because they have other options. I have only just picked up Parry recently - because I needed to, I've joined the mass ranks. I can tell you, Mage without Parry was zero fun in all the fights I;ve been fighting, I've retired my main, and favourite Caster because without Parry he was pointless in pvp. Look at why they are taking up Parry - and fix those issues, then mages will switch out for something else.


    I don't know how to reply to each bit well, so I'm inserting it into your quotes. Bold Italics for my responses.

    In some respects I agree with you, in others I don't.

    I'd like to see Parry go back to Warriors.

    I'd like to see pure Warriors make a return.

    I'd like to see Parry off Mages. On the original topic of Evade - I just don't really see why this is an issue even. But - I'm quite happy for Evade to be taken off also - I just have not seen anyone explain why this is an issue.

    But it's the how to do it I disagree on, just breaking Parry, will break the entire Mage class in pvp, they are using it, because they are forced to, many of us really don't want to. You need to understand why they are all using Parry, and give an option for when you break it.

    I will ask you the Counter question - How many successful Pure Scribe mages do you see out there?

  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 392
    This discussion is about evasion on casters, not parry.  Being able to absorb 200+ damage while being at range to damage another.  This is what needs to fixed.  Its different on a warrior cause he has to be on top of you in order to deal any damage plus they have to land a hit, evasion is a tool for them to absorb some damage from the mage while they get close enough to hit back.  

    I personally would also like to see a parry drop chance for only the wrestle/anatomy parry combo on a mage as well.  But that is a seperate issue not concerning the this discussion.
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 43
    sibble said:
    Cookie said:

    He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.

    I don't know one person who still runs Meditation period (with or without parry), nor do I know one mage that has mana issues.

    Bilbo said:

    Then you are also forgetting about the 20 sec cool down that they can not use evasion.
    I'm not sure what Higgs is asking for.

    All I'm asking for is a reduced block chance and reduced evade chance for people whose templates run casting skills - not getting rid of it completely.  Now that you mention cooldown, maybe it should be longer for casters instead of reducing block chance.

    The points I've raised in this thread aren't solely on Evasion which I understand this thread is about.  I'm extending the thought to Parry and blocking altogether.

    I feel a dexer has 0 chance of fighting a mage who can also block attacks.  There is no opposite condition in which a mage would have 0 chance of fighting a dexer.
    I think the interesting thing when I see you debating the casters being OP and asking for dci reduction is why are all of your dexxers suits refined to lower your resist cap and increase your DCI to 60?

    If spell casters are OP, wouldn't you want higher resists to counter that?  Your DCI cap being 60 isn't going to save you from a standard parry mage or any kind of evade mage that isn't using a bokuto.  If they shield bash, they have no mana.  If they're using balakai wand they have zero ways to prevent you from running.  
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 467
    Cookie said:
    CovenantX said:
      
        Magery is both the most versatile & powerful skill in UO (pvp).

    it scales up in teams, is this real?  Everything scales up in teams... except mages (or spellcasters in general) scale up better than any non-caster templates do, because of their range (they don't trip on each other as much as a group of dexers would) & of course their inability to miss... hence evasion.

    I meant it scales up better, why would I have made this point otherwise? It has scaling efficiencies.

     Warriors don't need parry.   that's the best part.   warriors can disarm other warriors completely neutralizing their offense AND defense, they can walk away from a warrior to reduce their sustained dps. and if they do have parry it's 100% because bushido's Evasion requires Parry to survive magery.

    Fair point, lucky warriors.

    Parry is literally only a useful standalone skill for spell-casters.  you won't see a successful template with Parry that doesn't heavily rely on spells for both healing and or damage output.

    My 2 sons both use Parry Healing Throwers that are working very nicely. Not the most sophisticated, but very reliable, solid and versatile actually. So strictly speaking, they don't use spells, but they are ranged I admit.
    In the past, I have used a Glenda Shield Bash warrior that was pretty successful, but it was a dexxer with 2 moves, I got bored and moved on.


    Parry has been more a Mages skill since shame loot (and global loot) allowed every possible armor piece to have Dex bonus on it, but Parry should mostly be a Warrior skill, its of course... anything but that.

    I'll give you this. Who really thinks I want Parry on my Mage? I really don't, I shouldn't have it. I'd rather Inscription, Poison, Spell-weaving, Alchemy, something else. Why do I have it - because I, like every other mage, is forced to. I've only just switched back to Parry Mage, because I've had to. Banes, Dismounts, Bok mages, infinite Deathstrikers etc.

    When's the last time you saw a parry warrior using a shield?    you know what's even better than that?  Magery+Parry +/- Evade + Potions & Refinements.   I can't believe this has been so broken for the last like 5+ years now, without any meaningful attempt to be fixed.
    Glenda Shield Bash warriors. Parry Throwers. :)

    first they took away 5% SDI from focus spec (30% down to 25%), then an additional -5% SDI when Parry was added to the focus break list....  but guess what... it wasn't the mages offense that needed to be nerfed... it was and always has been their Defense, I said that back when this was being discussed on stratics before these changes.

    I also disagreed with this at the time, but for differing reasons. I correctly said, that no matter how much they nerf the offence, Mages will still use Parry - because they NEED to. So now, no matter how you look at it, Parry mages have been nerfed, and are still playing that template - why?

    Then more recently adding diminishing returns on evasion?  C'mon man... That is Magery vs Magery... an evade Dexer is normally running away when they're evading...

    @ Bleak

    Please Break parry for mages and the only real problem left would be about 90-95% of the pvp-base is using one or more illegal programs.

    Breaking Parry will not fix Mages, it will wipe the whole class out in pvp. You need to make it so Mages do not actually NEED Parry, and voluntarily give it up because they have other options. I have only just picked up Parry recently - because I needed to, I've joined the mass ranks. I can tell you, Mage without Parry was zero fun in all the fights I;ve been fighting, I've retired my main, and favourite Caster because without Parry he was pointless in pvp. Look at why they are taking up Parry - and fix those issues, then mages will switch out for something else.


    I don't know how to reply to each bit well, so I'm inserting it into your quotes. Bold Italics for my responses.

    In some respects I agree with you, in others I don't.

    I'd like to see Parry go back to Warriors.

    I'd like to see pure Warriors make a return.

    I'd like to see Parry off Mages. On the original topic of Evade - I just don't really see why this is an issue even. But - I'm quite happy for Evade to be taken off also - I just have not seen anyone explain why this is an issue.

    But it's the how to do it I disagree on, just breaking Parry, will break the entire Mage class in pvp, they are using it, because they are forced to, many of us really don't want to. You need to understand why they are all using Parry, and give an option for when you break it.

    I will ask you the Counter question - How many successful Pure Scribe mages do you see out there?

    the Glenda/Bash warriors use spell-casting (normally chivalry) to heal.... not to mention a Glenda/Bash-Mystic is even better. because the victim might die before they have a chance to heal...  also, glenda-bash shouldn't even be possible in the first place, it was an obvious oversight when everything else became unable to be paired together,   but it's typical that a 'bug' is needed for a 'dexer' to be at all effective one vs one.

    a Parry-Thrower, while fairly simple to play,   ...  I wonder why they aren't even close to the meta?     you're grasping for straws throwing this in here man, I can guarantee that mages get the kill on those throwers far more often than any dexer would even if they didn't have parry.  so again, irrelevant.

    Evade-Mages defense is too damn high when fighting any other template.  remove evade & cut parry in half, it'll be more reasonable.   they also have the offense to beat any template.   This is the point that excludes 4/6 chivalry, because of their lack of offense (minus glenda/bash, which should be fixed like everything else that was able to be paired with it)...

     Breaking parry won't break magery at all.   these are two skills that should have absolutely Nothing to do with one another.    Breaking parry on mages might break your mage?  perhaps. but if you're a half decent mage you should do fine without parry, it really depends on how long one has been getting used to easily near-effortlessly fighting dexers that can't hit/interrupt about 75% of the time.    the longer you played with parry, the more difficult it's likely to be for you to adapt without it.

      Pure scribe mages ?  pretty much everyone that's half way decent is still good at it.  all mages have the same offense, even more if you add a weapon to it, but even then the weapon accounts for about 20-30% at most of the actual damage to kill anyone...   no comparison to the dexer question.

     Breaking Parry will wipe the whole 'class' from pvp?   You mean the one class 90% of pvpers are playing 100% of the time?   Whoa, who want's that? (trick question, everyone should want that) because it's BROKEN A F.

      Mages have never been forced to use parry, you and several others literally said the same thing about when parry was being discussed before...  it's nothing but a line bad-mages use because they don't like dying to "brainless" dexers,   You break parry for mages and you'll see just how wrong it's been.   God forbid people might actually die to a dexer in pvp again.



    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
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