Can Provo be fixed

Seth · November 2020

Nooooo.... I think you can propose this for the Legacy server, anyway it gets wiped every year, in case if it does not work out...

I like the Bard (Cacofonix is the village bard) in Asterix, when he sings, everyone gets crazy.
It is like 1000 skill area discord + area provocation added together.

He is stronger than the warriors on steroids and is overpowered...

Petra_Fyde · November 2020

Jepeth said:

using provoke I could move my RC towards the direction I want it to go.

Have you tried? I regularly use provoke to direct EVs onto the creature I want them to attack.

My 4 x 120 bard can quite happily do mini champs in the Abyss, harvest Exodus keys in that dungeon and solo all but the belfry in Shadowguard. Belfry we do as a group at the same time as we do the roof, because most of the other char types can't solo that either.

But. Horses for courses. She can't do everything, and that's why we have several character slots, to make different characters for different situations.
I could see an argument for popps' assertions if we were restricted to one character, but we're not. (Siege excepted)

This not a 'one size fits all' game, never has been and isn't intended to be. Play the right character type for the situation.

I have a thief - she steals things, she doesn't expect to get drops from fighting. When I take her after Exodus keys she gets them from Zealots and hidden boxes.

popps · November 2020

Petra_Fyde said:

Jepeth said:

using provoke I could move my RC towards the direction I want it to go.

Have you tried? I regularly use provoke to direct EVs onto the creature I want them to attack.

My 4 x 120 bard can quite happily do mini champs in the Abyss, harvest Exodus keys in that dungeon and solo all but the belfry in Shadowguard. Belfry we do as a group at the same time as we do the roof, because most of the other char types can't solo that either.

But. Horses for courses. She can't do everything, and that's why we have several character slots, to make different characters for different situations.
I could see an argument for popps' assertions if we were restricted to one character, but we're not. (Siege excepted)

This not a 'one size fits all' game, never has been and isn't intended to be. Play the right character type for the situation.

I have a thief - she steals things, she doesn't expect to get drops from fighting. When I take her after Exodus keys she gets them from Zealots and hidden boxes.

But. Horses for courses. She can't do everything, and that's why we have several character slots, to make different characters for different situations.
I could see an argument for popps' assertions if we were restricted to one character, but we're not. (Siege excepted)

But then, why don't we get "new" content that Templates "other" then fighting characters are more fit to participate to ?

I mean, Event after Event it is always the same old same old..... fighters, kills, fighters, kills and some more fighters and some more kills....

And guess what types of Templates are most fit for these Event after Event after Event ?

Fighting Templates....

And so, all other types of Templates keep "missing out" on new content and new Events....

I am saying either of the 2....

Either make the other Templates be capable to likewise participate to Events tailored for Fighing OR, bring on New Events that are specifically tailored for Templates who are NOT focused on fighting....

There is a whole lot of players in Ultima Online who enjoy playing Templates "other" then fighters and Sampires or their variations of....

McDougle · November 2020

Ok
1.. this is not about drops i have gotten them with every template i have tried
2. this is not about Bards needing to be changed (although i could offer several great ideas for this)
this is about provo not working correctly in an event area it was a BUG reported in testing and never fixed i simply want it to work correctly in the next event.......

Norry · November 2020

All bard skills should work on any mob

Discord should get credit for the extra damage, and the masteries should give credit for healing.

Jepeth · November 2020

Petra_Fyde said:

Jepeth said:

using provoke I could move my RC towards the direction I want it to go.

Have you tried? I regularly use provoke to direct EVs onto the creature I want them to attack.

I have but in my experience even with 120 provoke I don't get consistent results. What I'd like to see instead of simply using provoke is an expansion of the skill to return a bit of the enticement code. Hit the skill, target the mob or the summon and either select another mob for it to target OR select a tile on the ground and they move in that direction.

And, again, I'm not suggesting that a single character should be able to do every experience in this game. But instead trying to offer ideas to expand the relative small list of things they currently are okay at to include a greater variety of things. Playing your bard at mini champs and the roof rooms sounds like a lot of fun! But you're choosing that path because it appeals to you personally, not because the bard is any better at it than another type of character. What I would like to see is more specific, individual experiences that a bard character could shine in.

Seth · November 2020

Alright, to be fair to @McDougle, lets get back on topic... lol

Provo is useful in some instances, e.g.

- It is very useful in Bar at shadowguard. It can be used at the Fountain and Armory, though I find it less useful.

For events, the monsters are typically very powerful. Recently, the events on my shard seem to show that the EM can configure the monsters to be immune to Word of Death and dispel my Colossus faster than my blinking eye. Very soon, there will not be any character template that is the "best" template for event.

For powerful monsters, it is normally very hard to successfully use the bard. E.g. my 4x Mastery bard takes very long to discord the shadowguard boss some times. But its easy for the lesser alpha monsters.

Perhaps another way to "tune" down the Alpha monsters or introduce smaller monsters, that we can provoke to keep the Alpha busy so that our Summons and Pets are not targeted and die so easily.

What I am suggesting is not to always beef or nerf a current skill but modify the monsters, event, to make a template more useful or less over powered.

Last but not least slight off-topic regarding events -

I appreciate EM and Dev team not to use Boss monsters that do one-hit kill, and turning the event into a ghost robe collection competition (who collects more). The recent event at Formosa was nicely done and I got a drop.

keven2002 · November 2020

This all goes back to play a template that is more effective if you want certain "stuff". Even if things were able to be provoked, the bard is going to take even longer than a tamer to get drops because you have to wait to use the skill and in that time frame someone will come kill whatever you are barding. I can already see it now... then it goes from "please allow us to bard" to "bard drops need to be increased because we can only use the skill so often" or "make bard skills have no cool down".

@popps - you have been told probably over 100 times now that you can't expect every single template to be the same (ie. a bard is not going to get some sort of "barded blade"). You say the same thing about literally every new content that comes out; you for whatever reason decide you want to use the least effective template (I believe for the virtue tile quest unbounds you said tamers/pets should be better). Bottom line is you know by now that a sampire and a tamer are 2 of the best templates for killing and getting "stuff" so just make them (you have been posting long enough now to have made both). In the event a tamer isn't as effective switch to the sampire. End of story.

It's unrealistic to think that a bard would get drops for just buffing players in the party bc if that were the case you would see everyone with a second EJ account trailing their sampire/tamer running bard buffs and getting double the drops.

popps · November 2020

keven2002 said:

This all goes back to play a template that is more effective if you want certain "stuff". Even if things were able to be provoked, the bard is going to take even longer than a tamer to get drops because you have to wait to use the skill and in that time frame someone will come kill whatever you are barding. I can already see it now... then it goes from "please allow us to bard" to "bard drops need to be increased because we can only use the skill so often" or "make bard skills have no cool down".

@ popps - you have been told probably over 100 times now that you can't expect every single template to be the same (ie. a bard is not going to get some sort of "barded blade"). You say the same thing about literally every new content that comes out; you for whatever reason decide you want to use the least effective template (I believe for the virtue tile quest unbounds you said tamers/pets should be better). Bottom line is you know by now that a sampire and a tamer are 2 of the best templates for killing and getting "stuff" so just make them (you have been posting long enough now to have made both). In the event a tamer isn't as effective switch to the sampire. End of story.

It's unrealistic to think that a bard would get drops for just buffing players in the party bc if that were the case you would see everyone with a second EJ account trailing their sampire/tamer running bard buffs and getting double the drops.

I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the concept that, in order to get somewhere in Ultima Online (i.e. get the "good" stuff), one HAS TO either play a Sampire (or its variations of...), or a Tamer.

One of the "assetts" of Ultima Online has always been the multitude of its Templates.

THEN, this means that the Developers should make, rather then only or mostly content that Sampires and Tamers are most efficient at, ALSO other content where "other" Templates would be most efficient at and, BEAT Sampires and Tamers at getting that high end items....

That is, rather then having over and over only "Treasures of...." Events where Sampires and Tamers get all the high end goodies because the "means" to those goodies if through bashing and killing MoBs, my opinion is that the Developers should "also" throw in other types of Events where Bards, Rogues and other types of Templates can "beat" Sampires and Tamers in getting the good stuff and not just useless deco stuff.....

This, if we want to see in Ultima Online,variability of Templates and to appease players who enjoy to play Templates other then Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers.

Pawain · November 2020

popps said:

keven2002 said:

This all goes back to play a template that is more effective if you want certain "stuff". Even if things were able to be provoked, the bard is going to take even longer than a tamer to get drops because you have to wait to use the skill and in that time frame someone will come kill whatever you are barding. I can already see it now... then it goes from "please allow us to bard" to "bard drops need to be increased because we can only use the skill so often" or "make bard skills have no cool down".

@ popps - you have been told probably over 100 times now that you can't expect every single template to be the same (ie. a bard is not going to get some sort of "barded blade"). You say the same thing about literally every new content that comes out; you for whatever reason decide you want to use the least effective template (I believe for the virtue tile quest unbounds you said tamers/pets should be better). Bottom line is you know by now that a sampire and a tamer are 2 of the best templates for killing and getting "stuff" so just make them (you have been posting long enough now to have made both). In the event a tamer isn't as effective switch to the sampire. End of story.

It's unrealistic to think that a bard would get drops for just buffing players in the party bc if that were the case you would see everyone with a second EJ account trailing their sampire/tamer running bard buffs and getting double the drops.

I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the concept that, in order to get somewhere in Ultima Online (i.e. get the "good" stuff), one HAS TO either play a Sampire (or its variations of...), or a Tamer.

One of the "assetts" of Ultima Online has always been the multitude of its Templates.

THEN, this means that the Developers should make, rather then only or mostly content that Sampires and Tamers are most efficient at, ALSO other content where "other" Templates would be most efficient at and, BEAT Sampires and Tamers at getting that high end items....

That is, rather then having over and over only "Treasures of...." Events where Sampires and Tamers get all the high end goodies because the "means" to those goodies if through bashing and killing MoBs, my opinion is that the Developers should "also" throw in other types of Events where Bards, Rogues and other types of Templates can "beat" Sampires and Tamers in getting the good stuff and not just useless deco stuff.....

This, if we want to see in Ultima Online,variability of Templates and to appease players who enjoy to play Templates other then Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers.

So, what content would melee fighters or tamers be not good at? Go ahead tell us.

Norry · November 2020

@Pawain crafting? So the bid turn in from... oh wait, someone else can fill it for them.

Mariah · November 2020

This thread is being dragged off topic again.

popps · November 2020

Pawain said:

popps said:

keven2002 said:

This all goes back to play a template that is more effective if you want certain "stuff". Even if things were able to be provoked, the bard is going to take even longer than a tamer to get drops because you have to wait to use the skill and in that time frame someone will come kill whatever you are barding. I can already see it now... then it goes from "please allow us to bard" to "bard drops need to be increased because we can only use the skill so often" or "make bard skills have no cool down".

@ popps - you have been told probably over 100 times now that you can't expect every single template to be the same (ie. a bard is not going to get some sort of "barded blade"). You say the same thing about literally every new content that comes out; you for whatever reason decide you want to use the least effective template (I believe for the virtue tile quest unbounds you said tamers/pets should be better). Bottom line is you know by now that a sampire and a tamer are 2 of the best templates for killing and getting "stuff" so just make them (you have been posting long enough now to have made both). In the event a tamer isn't as effective switch to the sampire. End of story.

It's unrealistic to think that a bard would get drops for just buffing players in the party bc if that were the case you would see everyone with a second EJ account trailing their sampire/tamer running bard buffs and getting double the drops.

I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the concept that, in order to get somewhere in Ultima Online (i.e. get the "good" stuff), one HAS TO either play a Sampire (or its variations of...), or a Tamer.

One of the "assetts" of Ultima Online has always been the multitude of its Templates.

THEN, this means that the Developers should make, rather then only or mostly content that Sampires and Tamers are most efficient at, ALSO other content where "other" Templates would be most efficient at and, BEAT Sampires and Tamers at getting that high end items....

That is, rather then having over and over only "Treasures of...." Events where Sampires and Tamers get all the high end goodies because the "means" to those goodies if through bashing and killing MoBs, my opinion is that the Developers should "also" throw in other types of Events where Bards, Rogues and other types of Templates can "beat" Sampires and Tamers in getting the good stuff and not just useless deco stuff.....

This, if we want to see in Ultima Online,variability of Templates and to appease players who enjoy to play Templates other then Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers.

So, what content would melee fighters or tamers be not good at? Go ahead tell us.

Aside that Bards, just as one example possible, CAN be used with fighting, perhaps content where fighting is not required might be content where Sampires and Tamers would not be "the" choice ?

Unfortunately, it seems that, Event after Event, it is all about fighting.... and ONLY about fighting....

Pawain · November 2020

I did just fine with my Paladin in Deceit. I did not like how my Sampire had to run off to heal.

To stay on Bards for Mariah. Like others said, it is too slow to kill things with a bard when any other template can run up and 1 hit the whole screen full. They cant make provoke insta kill stuff, the mobs are fighting with their AI. I tried my Mystic thower there for a day. It was horrible, by the time I cast an RC, someone came in and killed the whole room. And my thrower could one kill things 1 at a time. I took off throwing and put on macing and imbued a whip and was able to get drops. He could not kill paragon Lichs, rams or eles, but he could kill enough other stuff to get drops.

Bard is a support skill that can be used in many places. 480 points does not warrant a kill all real quick character. Could use bard songs and have made a warrior with just tactics and a weapon skill. And be at exactly 720 points. Run the peace mastery for regens. That would clear rooms just as efficiently.

Instead of wanting to change things maybe yall could ask for advice on how to incorporate what you want to play into something that will kill fast.

I already said, The devs should let these thing be provoked but if they did, someones gonna run up and kill the whole room before the bard kills 1 thing.

Norry · November 2020

And thats why i said early on to give credit for

the healing from provo mastery

The extra damge from being discorded/disco mastery

They changed it from way back being last hit for looting rights. Just if they add more things for credit, people have more options.

I am ok getting fewer drops if i can play my favorite combat template, even if its not the best(no, i dont want crafters doing combat stuff).

keven2002 · November 2020

I'm fine with "fixing" provo so that things can be provoked (as long as the skills align). But I disagree with the whole "bard should get the same drops as other templates".

@popps - you refuse to believe a lot of things and that's why so many things are repeated (and people get so annoyed with your post). The fact of the matter is that for this event (treasures of) which is 100% "kill as much stuff as you can and do as much damage as you can", a bard is just not the most effective template. End of story. Just accept it.

There are a few other events I have used my bard for (he has weaving too) and I've done fine because I'm hitting a single target and doing massive damage with WoD from my own buffs. That said, I didn't even bother bringing him out for Deceit because there are simply too many mobs (and people) that I cannot effectively get drops. I learned this one the first day and played as effectively as I could to maximize my drops.

If you think Devs are going to allow a supporting char that you can 100% dual/triple client while they run behind your main char (using bard songs) and get the same amount of drops you are out of your mind. It was bad enough the EJ accounts were able to get drops from this event; we don't need 2 EJ accounts (one peace one provoke) running behind a main account and someone getting 3x the drop all because you feel like any template should get the same amount of drops.

popps · November 2020

Pawain said:

I did just fine with my Paladin in Deceit. I did not like how my Sampire had to run off to heal.

To stay on Bards for Mariah. Like others said, it is too slow to kill things with a bard when any other template can run up and 1 hit the whole screen full. They cant make provoke insta kill stuff, the mobs are fighting with their AI. I tried my Mystic thower there for a day. It was horrible, by the time I cast an RC, someone came in and killed the whole room. And my thrower could one kill things 1 at a time. I took off throwing and put on macing and imbued a whip and was able to get drops. He could not kill paragon Lichs, rams or eles, but he could kill enough other stuff to get drops.

Bard is a support skill that can be used in many places. 480 points does not warrant a kill all real quick character. Could use bard songs and have made a warrior with just tactics and a weapon skill. And be at exactly 720 points. Run the peace mastery for regens. That would clear rooms just as efficiently.

Instead of wanting to change things maybe yall could ask for advice on how to incorporate what you want to play into something that will kill fast.

I already said, The devs should let these thing be provoked but if they did, someones gonna run up and kill the whole room before the bard kills 1 thing.

They cant make provoke insta kill stuff, the mobs are fighting with their AI. I tried my Mystic thower there for a day. It was horrible, by the time I cast an RC, someone came in and killed the whole room. And my thrower could one kill things 1 at a time. I took off throwing and put on macing and imbued a whip and was able to get drops.

Mysticism, as one example, as the Animated Weapon spell....

Why not create some "Super Masteries" where, if a given Template has 500+ real skill points in skills all related to a given Role, they get the ability to summon something which can fight for them and can fight damn well, on par with how efficient a Sampire or a Tamer can be ?

For example, a Bard with 120 in all 4 Bardic skills, all real skills, could be given a Super Mastery to summon something like an Animated Weapon that exists for Mysticism which would give them the exact same chances at drops that a Sampire or a Tamer could have...

And the same for a Rogue, a Rogue having all real skills in Hiding, Stealthing, Lockpicking, Snooping, Stealing, Detect Hidden and Remove Trap (maxing all of them out would need 740 skill points, by the way, when the CAP is 720, and no magery even....) would be given the ability with a Super Mastery to summon something that would fight for them and, thus, enable them to get drops just like Sampires and Tamers can...

I mean, with some ingenuity I am sure that solutions CAN be found to enable Templates OTHER then the same old same old Sampires and Tamers to participate to these Events and get drops just fine...

popps · November 2020

Norry said:

And thats why i said early on to give credit for
the healing from provo mastery
The extra damge from being discorded/disco mastery

They changed it from way back being last hit for looting rights. Just if they add more things for credit, people have more options.

I am ok getting fewer drops if i can play my favorite combat template, even if its not the best(no, i dont want crafters doing combat stuff).

I am ok getting fewer drops if i can play my favorite combat template, even if its not the best(no, i dont want crafters doing combat stuff).

Why not ?

I mean, Tinkers can already craft Golems and KOTL Automatons to fight for them.

The only problem is, that they have been made too weak.

Imagine a Tinker trying to kill stuff in Deceit with a Golem or an Automaton.... laughable....

BUT, if these crafters' fighting craftables where made way more powerfull and endurable (like a pet is) AND with an easier way to repair them and bring them back to life if killed, THEN, also crafters could participate to these fighting Events through their craftable creatures...

keven2002 · November 2020

@popps - stay on topic or this thread will be locked.

jelinidas · November 2020

You have 7 slots for a reason. Some are support characters. Build the best "team" you can. Not all characters, or pets, are perfect for all situations.

keven2002 · November 2020

Well said @jelinidas

popps · November 2020

keven2002 said:

Well said @ jelinidas

This is my last post on the argument to stay on topic.

I need to answer, as I do not think it is well said when, most of the Events being released, result over and over, being new content mainly (or exclusively) for fighting characters, with Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers, to be the ones performing the best.

My point is, that there is a whole lot of other types of Templates in Ultima Online, Bards included, and the new content and Events, should ALSO consider them as eligible templates to gather the new Rewards and not just throw out new content that is feasible mostly for Sampires and their variations of or Tamers....

Yes, there is several characters possible in an Account BUT, if new content gets most always released for always the same Templates to be the ones to best perform in it, those "other" Templates will stay to collect the dust as players will likely disregard using them if the new content forces them to always use the same old, same old Sampires and their variations of, or Tamers.

This is what I had to say on the argument so, I will not answer further posts on this topic.
Thanks.

Mariah · November 2020

@popps If you really want to discuss this theory please start another thread for it.

keven2002 · November 2020

It is as simple as this; out of all the rewards from the Deceit event how many of them were things specifically for a bard/crafter/thief? This is not just a coincidence.

So I'll reiterate one more time with the hopes that it finally sinks in. There are professions (templates) in UO for a reason. There will be some tasks certain templates are better than others. It's unrealistic to think that a non-fighting character should get the same rewards as a fighting one. Just like it's unrealistic to think a fighting character should get the same rewards as a crafter (ie BODs). Yet that is what you keep trying to say.

There is a reason you go to a doctor for an xray and not a carpenter. Different professions (ie templates) have different uses. Accept it and move on.

Jepeth · November 2020

You are incorrect. There are 'professions' because we recognize some skills synergize better with others. The templates on the character creation screen are suggestions at best considering you can only put major points into two skills at creation. Ultima Online has always been a game where one can mix and match skills to create different templates as opposed to games like WoW with multiple class types that are (key word here) balanced so as to be useful across a range of content.

In a thread trying to discuss ways to improve the provocation skill and bard experience we're told by a vocal few over and over that everything is hunky dory and to stop complaining.

Where does this aversion to change and improvement come from? I don't wish to be cynical but we don't need to treat every single suggestion in a zero-sum frame. Improving one range of skills (or class if you prefer) does not mean they will nerf another.

keven2002 · November 2020

Do you think making every template receive the same drops is an improvement? I personally think it's actually watering down the game to cater to those that do not wish to learn game mechanics and want everything handed to them.

If you read the thread from the beginning you will see @popps is inferring that a pure bard (which is outlined as 4 skills ie. 480 points) should get the same amount of drops as a 720+ skill warrior/tamer. I don't see that as an improvement. He also references crafters being viable during events like this. Please do not try to pass these off as "improvements" when it's simply making the game easier for him because he refuses to learn it.

Jepeth · November 2020

Your frustration with Popps, deserved or otherwise, seems to be prejudicing you against all improvements. I apologize if this is a misread of your previous statement but the changes he suggests would not entirely benefit him alone. That is a virtual impossibility in a game this complex.

I have read and contributed to the thread from the beginning. My opinion on this matter hasn't much changed despite all the arguments made by you and others. Suggesting that there is an inherent difference between these two class approaches and they should not be rewarded equally is fine, but I don't agree with it. But saying 'this is the ways things are stop trying to suggest otherwise' does nothing to improve the game.

Let us shift our perspective a minute. Treasure hunting is another class approach with a massive points expenditure. GM lockpicking, GM remove trap, GM cartography. But no one is arguing that treasure hunters must have an equal chance at getting Deceit drops. Because as an approach there exists a multitude of things they excel at doing unique to them. Crafters can find success and wealth in what they produce, there are a multitude of things they can do.

What specific, unique thing exists for bards to do? If they are to be a support class alone, fine. But without something unique for them let's have a reason to play one at something like Deceit.

Norry · November 2020

Again, giving them looting rights(credit) for provo, peace and disco would go a long way.

With the timer built in for each attempt its not over powering, and allows more templates to participate. They would not be as good as a samp, or tamer, but could still play(i prefer my tamers over anything else), and this shouldnt hurt anyone else.

keven2002 · November 2020

Bards are pretty much a support class. They are extremely useful and powerful in the right place (Doom/Shadowguard/Navry/Scalis/EM Events/etc/etc) with bard songs but they don't have much stand alone ability compared to other templates. On top of bard songs they can use their skills while using the bard songs with no interruption. I don't have a problem with any of that.

Where I think it's a problem is when people think that every template/class should be the same and be as effective / get the same rewards. That's where I draw the line. It's not even close to even that a bard (who could technically be AFK or following a main account) would get as many drops as a sampire would (as they spam whirlwind killing handfuls of things at once).

@Jepeth - I think many people would argue that treasure hunting and crafting are both no longer lucrative

Additionally, I could make the same argument for a thief or a ninja using stealth. These templates do about as well as a bard does with drops. If you think a bard should get more drops from something like Deceit then shouldn't the thief or ninja get more too? Why shouldn't the crafter not get as many if hes making the armor and weapons people are using the fight back? You can use that same argument with any template. At the end of the day most templates have their spots/events where they get more out of things. Such is life.

Jepeth · November 2020

Sorry, 'such is life' isn't an effective argument for me when we are discussing a video game. We (the players) can provide meaningful feedback and ideas to the developers to enhance our game play experience. Life is messy and uncontrollable. What we're suggesting for the game is simply a matter of coding and time.

As it happens I do think ninjas and stealthing thieves need more to do. And crafters. And fishermen. And, as I think others have been trying to say during this thread, everyone that is not a fighting character. Not producing an equal amount of rewards across different class builds is your perspective to have, even if I don't agree with it. But not providing meaningful content for the other class approaches in the game that aren't tamers of sampires is unfortunate and I believe the developers could do better. You say that "most templates have their spots/events where they get more out of things" but as I asked earlier, what one event in the last two-ish years (since I've returned to the game) has provided an experience that bards alone can shine in?

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Can Provo be fixed

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