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The Clydesdale: Last Stand, Your Thoughts?

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  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,997
    Added for context.

    Last night, we fought for 2 hours, in an 8vs12.
    There were about 50 kills, we killed about 38, took about 12 deaths.
    So the kills are happening imo.

    We were saying during the fight - that wouldn't have happened with a Clydesdale etc.
    Maybe about 5 of those deaths would not have happened - about 10% of the kills during the fight.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,951
    Kyronix has said spawn permanent 
  • GarretGarret Posts: 295
    edited June 9

       I'm not a pvp player, but I just want to say in the context of gameplay and horses, when you add mechanics like cheat death and your game does not support an adequate interface to track it, you must add mechanics that allow you to track the cooldown on the ability.
       
       For example, if cheat death is available - the horse's eyes should glow red (shining hooves, burning tail....) so that you visually understand that you have cheat death, and your opponent also understood what he would have to deal with, or any other visual effect that allows you to track the mechanics. 

       The cooldown should be reduced by at least two times, I don't see the point in using a horse in PvM when you have a mount that reduce 20% damage, for PvP, as was said above, dismount is a common occurrence, so a long cooldown doesn't make sense, it seems to me. 

  • K616K616 Posts: 2
    My biggest issue with the last stand is that it would appears to soak ANY amount of lethal damage with absolutely no damage done to the player. So for example if you have an enemy at 49 HP and you're lucky enough to get off a full temp death strike the enemy now lives and his life remains untouched.

    If we're dead set on having this in production it should at the minimum take them down to X% health but keep them alive or split/scale the lethal damage based on available HP left. that way you got the death cheat but you also received some form of punishment even if it's a small amount.
  • MerlinMerlin Posts: 256
    edited June 9
    Tested briefly.. it makes dismounting in PVP more important than it already is.  However, it does seem to prevent fair amount of deaths.  With more and more gear becoming overpowered to max out nearly all mods, a new ability that makes it even more difficult to ultimately kill someone seems a little misplaced.   My testing thus far has been limited to only an hour worth of 2v2 sparing, but my first gut feeling is that this should be a PVM only ability... difficult to test full PVP extent until it is on production shards.  Will try again tonight... 

    +1 on concern that trolls who don't PVP attempting to hijack the thread with side-discussions.. 
  • AtomicBettyAtomicBetty Posts: 328
    Should let it go live as is and see how it actually plays out in regular game play. Sure the opinion will probably be it should be a trammel only function or only available on a trained pet.  

    What about something like every 30 minutes if you fall below 25% HP last stand boosts all your resistances by 20 or something for 30 seconds.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,951
    Merlin said:
    Tested briefly.. it makes dismounting in PVP more important than it already is.  However, it does seem to prevent fair amount of deaths.  With more and more gear becoming overpowered to max out nearly all mods, a new ability that makes it even more difficult to ultimately kill someone seems a little misplaced.   My testing thus far has been limited to only an hour worth of 2v2 sparing, but my first gut feeling is that this should be a PVM only ability... difficult to test full PVP extent until it is on production shards.  Will try again tonight... 

    +1 on concern that trolls who don't PVP attempting to hijack the thread with side-discussions.. 
    My pvm dog archer will always have an opinion as long as pvp changes affect pvm we will squawk 
  • DeanWinchesterDeanWinchester Posts: 7
    I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,997
    edited June 12
    I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.
    I understand all of this - I think this Meta is in fact the issue.
    I accept more damage output could be cool.
    I would happily weaken that Meta.
    That was my point somewhere re Evade - players are already cheating death every 30 seconds.
    I think, forgetting the Clydesdale - there is a bigger conversation to have re pvp balance.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,951
    DeanWinchester said:
    I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.
    I read this as I have all this stuff automated so I'm hard to kill ..
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,997
    edited June 12
    Grimbeard said:
    I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.
    I read this as I have all this stuff automated so I'm hard to kill ..
    It is not necessary to have any of this automated, again, you need to stop your prejudices and learn some facts.

    Automation where I see affecting pvp the worst, is relative tile teleporting right in front of me, followed by a scripted dismount, then you get ganked. The automation is causing the kills, more than the defence, nothing can really survive this, this is unbalanced imo.

    I'm at the point, players do not even chase me anymore, even if they are mounted, they just teleport after me... That looks ridiculous to be fair (I'm actually thinking - how desperate are these guys).
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 1,045
    Cookie said:
    This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. 
    I understand all of this - I think this Meta is in fact the issue.
    I accept more damage output could be cool.
    I would happily weaken that Meta.
    That was my point somewhere re Evade - players are already cheating death every 30 seconds.
    I think, forgetting the Clydesdale - there is a bigger conversation to have re pvp balance.

       Last Stand is every 30 minutes, not seconds... but it still does not belong in pvp. mitigates potentially far too much damage, and when people are that low, they're already running, so it's much less fun and more annoying than anything.   chasing people (aside from cheaters) is the worst part about pvp.


     It's interesting all the sudden everyone playing parry/evade now needs rebalancing,  cause I've been saying this since parry has become available to every template again, how many years ago now...  what the hell took so damn long?     -could have avoided this garbage before it became a thing (Again).

    the only thing piling on more and more defensive mechanics does is push small groups or solo players out of pvp because it turns into a slog every f**king time which is never fun, so then you end up with 5v5+ teams (not bad to have them, but it's bad when that's all there is)

    honestly though, even if parry/evade weren't around..  a 'cheat death' ability would still cause pvp to be more annoying than anything.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!

  • AtomicBettyAtomicBetty Posts: 328
    I don't think parry/evade need balancing the game should finally just enforce a skill cap while in Felucca. 
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,951
    Cookie said:
    Grimbeard said:
    I also play in a team. And we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on the point of needing more defense. It should be almost impossible to die in pvp. As said before it usually takes the player making extremely bad choices and series of either very bad luck or mistakes. I will give examples. I put bushido/parry with evade on my char. This alone means I can "cheat death" every 30 seconds and add in enchated apples (30 second timer) and it means you need to catch a person on TWO 30 second timers to have a real shot at killing them. Any pvper that is half decent should not die if they have evade available. Now add to that War Cry, ANOTHER cheat death cooldown. Now add in seed of life and barrab potion. ANOTHER cheat death timer (thats minimum 3 deaths avoided if your keeping up). And this is with ONLY bushido/parry. Nothing is stopping you from adding in more defense with bandages, spellweaving, etc. If someone thinks pvp is not defensive enough, they might need to change thier template.
    I read this as I have all this stuff automated so I'm hard to kill ..
    It is not necessary to have any of this automated, again, you need to stop your prejudices and learn some facts.

    Automation where I see affecting pvp the worst, is relative tile teleporting right in front of me, followed by a scripted dismount, then you get ganked. The automation is causing the kills, more than the defence, nothing can really survive this, this is unbalanced imo.

    I'm at the point, players do not even chase me anymore, even if they are mounted, they just teleport after me... That looks ridiculous to be fair (I'm actually thinking - how desperate are these guys).
    I'm simply saying Orion and does it all for you is this not the case?
  • DeanWinchesterDeanWinchester Posts: 7
    To the point of Grimbeard post about automation, the reality is all the things I listed - evade, apples, war cry, barrab pot - all of these things work absolutely terrible when automated. Anyone who is decent at pvp knows when someone is using auto apple, you just bait the apple and kill them. Evade automation would be worthless as well as barrab pot because you must see the dmg coming and know when to time the use of the cooldown otherwise its wasted. Same for warcry. Ppl who try to automate warcry end up stutter stepping in situations when they should be running and it almost always ends with thier death. But I digress, the question posted has nothing to do with automation and  everything to do with the balance of the current pvp state being overly defensive already. Adding more defense to the game is not the answer.
  • DeanWinchesterDeanWinchester Posts: 7
    I do agree somewhat with cookie. But I would like to say that it seems like your experiences are based from fighting an enemy with more ppl. Just throw these experiences out the window. Its flawed data. If one team decides to get 20+ ppl and dismount 6 ppl the game has basically been abused before the fight occurs. We as a community cannot base our changes on this data. Again if ppl want to group up and run a party with 20 ppl the players cannot do much about it. This would have to be addressed by the developers. Which is another conversation all together about changing the entire pvp landscape, VvV.
  • DeanWinchesterDeanWinchester Posts: 7
    And to Atmoic Betty suggestion, its not a bad idea. Enforcing a hard cap on skills in fel. I would be kind of sad to not be able to build crazy 900+ skill chars anymore. Its part of the fun for me. But it would help to balance things i believe. One of the better suggestions ive heard
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,997
    @DeanWinchester Your points are very well put. :)
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