sdi mage vs sampire damage balance

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  • AlaziAlazi Posts: 15
    edited November 2021
    McDougle said:
    I don't think anyone will disagree that an SDI mage even at close to 200 SDI  just can't match a sampire in damage output .here are a few thoughts on fixing this.
    right now WW attack does XXX damage to every monster it hits while chain lighting and other mutli target spells do XXX damage divided by targets i suggest instead mage spells do XXX damage to all targets
    slayer talismans for mages, not more sdi but slayers that will stack with our spellbooks the way they do with warriors weapons 
    i feel that these two simple changes will put more mages in event dungeons 
    With the right debuffs Mages are much better dps than Sampires. For Solo play or without pets, they're not great. Pets with resist reducing debuffs boost your damage dramatically. The strongest combo I've seen for raw damage is Wrestle mastery / RC fire beetle + SDI Mage. 
    I use my mage for soloing: Roof, Grizzle, Shimmering Effusion, Lady Mel, Stygian Dragon etc (big slow meat sacks, or bosses that do WAY too much damage [EFFUSION].
    Sampires are a lot better at not dying in other situations, like Doom or any boss with ranged attacks, or bosses that just instakill pets [SLASHER]. (and this is of course, all single target damage... mages are single target dps in this game.)
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    Yoshi said:
    “I’m not sure what the point in even discussing this is. They do not have time to even adjust a single piece of text on mannequins etc,
    Newer/returning players are erroneously being told that SDI is capped at 15% in PvP.

    what makes you think they have time to play with things that aren’t even broken?

    Who do you think you are, a paying customer?”

    Yup, the priority should be:
    1) Fix current bugs for production and client.
    2) Make production shard customer happy
    3) NLS.

    Talking about off-topic, the whole of page 2 is about NLS transcript and nothing gets deleted or locked.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    edited November 2021
    Alazi said:
    McDougle said:
    I don't think anyone will disagree that an SDI mage even at close to 200 SDI  just can't match a sampire in damage output .here are a few thoughts on fixing this.
    right now WW attack does XXX damage to every monster it hits while chain lighting and other mutli target spells do XXX damage divided by targets i suggest instead mage spells do XXX damage to all targets
    slayer talismans for mages, not more sdi but slayers that will stack with our spellbooks the way they do with warriors weapons 
    i feel that these two simple changes will put more mages in event dungeons 
    With the right debuffs Mages are much better dps than Sampires. For Solo play or without pets, they're not great. Pets with resist reducing debuffs boost your damage dramatically. The strongest combo I've seen for raw damage is Wrestle mastery / RC fire beetle + SDI Mage. 
    I use my mage for soloing: Roof, Grizzle, Shimmering Effusion, Lady Mel, Stygian Dragon etc (big slow meat sacks, or bosses that do WAY too much damage [EFFUSION].
    Sampires are a lot better at not dying in other situations, like Doom or any boss with ranged attacks, or bosses that just instakill pets [SLASHER]. (and this is of course, all single target damage... mages are single target dps in this game.)

    Yes, sampires are really filled to the brim with 720 skills is not enough.
    Mages need just 3 magery, med and EI.
    Add taming, spellweaving.

    He will have a
    1) personal Tank with extra 10 skills and 800 HP and 500 mana?
    2) still able to self resurrect, or self-heal or cast 1000 damage Word of Death
    3) still able to damage targets beyond the door
    4) ranged attack and wear luck suit at the right timing. When attacking in a group and not being attacked,I stand behind changed my suit to luck or full sdi (low resist). Warriors cannot do this because they are right next to monster.
    5) Invis to break lock, and teleport to get out of trouble, cast wall to block and delay.
    6) switch out taming for mystic and he gets powerful summons. Wow.

    This is just one configuration. So when they ask for warrior WW to balance with Mages' Area spells but the difference is that the Warrior WW is a direct contact melee with 8 targets. The warrior risks getting killed if he misses, especially for the new events because the paragons hidden among the 8 like the Wisps have proven to be deadly.

    The mages is SUPPOSED to sit at the back and cast ranged spells with 100% HIT CHANCE from far far away and they want him to Match The Sampire.

    I have all templates and I vote NO because this is the worst imbalance demand ever.

    And I am on topic, not trolling but this is enough and is enough.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,032
    IF a mage can sit back without be attacked seth argument might have merit but strangely enough the monsters attack me all the time ....and if i e-bolt them I'm dead aoe takes 3 cast I'm dead mages don't use only 3 skills we need resisting spells we need parry etc i don't understand why a suggestion the harms no one else's skill set and it not at all over powered is so disliked..
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    McDougle said:
    IF a mage can sit back without be attacked seth argument might have merit but strangely enough the monsters attack me all the time ....and if i e-bolt them I'm dead aoe takes 3 cast I'm dead mages don't use only 3 skills we need resisting spells we need parry etc i don't understand why a suggestion the harms no one else's skill set and it not at all over powered is so disliked..

    The paragons randomly target all characters unless your character uses the sw spell to get ignored by them. If you want monsters to ignore you completely then stay in the grey screen as a ghost.

    My bards and healers also get attacked, are monsters supposed to do a template check, "Oh you are a mage, you are excused from my attack, have a good day!"

    When you get attacked you run and you find opportunities with others tamers or warriors who has tanks. Even my warrior find other warriors and pets to help tank the Balron, you think only your mage doesn't need it?

    Back to the OP, you are talking about area damage, direct damage, or getting chased by monsters?
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    edited November 2021
    Did you not read about the earlier locked post where others complained warriors ran towards them with XXX paragons chasing after them. Yes, warriors cannot always tank now because of the paragons but they are helping to take the first hit. You can cast an area spell around him and get looting rights for all his mobs and then cast Invis and hide away. He is running for his life.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Mene_DrachenfelsMene_Drachenfels Posts: 212
    edited November 2021
    Pawain said:
    *snip*

    Please admit you did not even look at their page before you posted the above.  Or continue to look like a buffoon,  @ Mene_Drachenfels (that is slang for Idiot I just chose a nicer word.)


    If you have a problem with Anon here, then leave me out of this thread, will you? Why are you attacking me now? I have nothing to say about this topic! It's really nice that you choose a nice word for me, that puts me on the track of Hester and Chuckles ;) ...in America they call them tricksters ;)...You don't have to apologise either, I wouldn't accept them! 

    To point out certain stupidities of the people the world needs exactly these fools again ;)

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


    A little less ego-thinking, know-it-all and rumbling compared to others who aren't so "great" and the UO-life would be a whole corner easier

    (Ein bisschen weniger Ego-Denken, Besserwisserei und Rumprollerei anderen gegenüber die halt nicht so "toll sind" und das UO-Leben wäre ne ganze Ecke einfacher)







  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,117Moderator
    Off topic posts have been removed. Please do not hijack threads with 'pet peeves'.
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 727
    I play a mage and do quite well when I work with other players but bottom line if there are not other players to work with only players that can solo top line paras can play in the dungeon.  Usually, when no one else is there I find several top line paras in entrance area, at least one in the middle of each hallway and at least one in every room in the dungeon.  No way I can play even when I am getting 130 to 150 points per hit.  They easily outcast me two spells to one.  That’s just the way it is.  As has been mentioned to survive, a mage needs to have something else going to play alone against the big stuff.  Just wanted to answer the question another player asked about why it was necessary to be able to solo a ballon.  By the way, a necro mage in wraith form using the death ray against para balron fighting a pet or other player can do an outstanding amount of damage.  Well worth having in a party.
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 727
    Balron not ballon.  Sorry, think a ballon would not be that hard to solo but then you never know.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    edited December 2021
    Arnold7 said:
     As has been mentioned to survive, a mage needs to have something else going to play alone against the big stuff.  Just wanted to answer the question another player asked about why it was necessary to be able to solo a ballon.  By the way, a necro mage in wraith form using the death ray against para balron fighting a pet or other player can do an outstanding amount of damage.  Well worth having in a party.

    That is if you insist on playing with the big stuff. So far I didn't insist and I have gotten at least 6 balron armors, 2 epaulettes and 1 lantern. All these without the need to solo kill the balron paragon. In dead shards at this time there are so few players we leave the balron in the room, or we lure them out and move them to another room, and then go back clear his rooms and we get drops. Rinse and repeat. We only kill balrons when more players arrive with pets or bards. There are a few who use the feint to try and kill the balron but I find that a waste of time.

    Anyway, the topic is about mages asking for same area effect damage vs sampire whirlwind.

    Whirlwind is surrounded by up to 8 targets in close contact right next to the warrior. Ofcourse warrior also have Hit area effect but that has much less damage. 

    Mages' area effects spell can be any target near or far and it spreads from the center. If mages want the same area effect with same damage, then maybe the targets should all be standing next to the mage to have same damage like warrior whirlwind.

    If we are going to be so picky and compare templates with such fine details, I also want the sampire to need only 3 skills because mages can have taming skills and bring another tank. Warriors cannot do that.



    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Merus said:
    I agree that magery AoE and summon spells could use a rebalancing pass.  Blade spirits could have more the power of EVs as a 2 slot and EVs could be bumped to 4 and be slightly less powerful than the RC.  I would say a 10% damage reduction for all AoE targets, but damage output isn’t split.

    I made a post a few weeks back with suggestions on how to revamp Summons and Forms.

    Sliss said:
    McDougle said:
    This brings up three more adjustments 
    2. No way for a mage to leech mana perhaps an adjustment to the mastery scaling off real skill level.

    Well, a necro-mage can leech mana, but the biggest downside compared to a sampire that a mage cannot heal while doing damage. You either heal or you attack. If you are up against a high level mob, all you do is heal.

    Would be nice if the Vampire Bat familiar would give 10% Life Drain to all damage dealt, including spell casts. Give a reason to use the damn things. I still remember when Curse Weapon could be bugged to function with spell casts shortly after AoS launched, i miss that.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,183
    At the end of the day there will be pros and cons to different templates. There will be times that each template is more powerful or has better use.

    Too many people ask to have every single template be able to do the same thing; that turns the game into like the original diablo where it didn't really matter what character you picked; you could beat the whole game. 

    The only thing I'd ask for the SDI mage is that whatever slayer book or talisman you held would work on all spells casted; regardless of spell type since there isn't currently a spellweaving slayer book or many mystic slayer books (at least off the top of my head). That way thunderstorm (which is already a very good spell) would get a bit of an uptick for those tougher paragons along with some other non-magery spells.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,032
    Whirlwind is surrounded by up to 8 targets in close contact right next to the warrior. Ofcourse warrior also have Hit area effect but that has much less damage. 

    Mages' area effects spell can be any target near or far and it spreads from the center. If mages want the same area effect with same damage, then maybe the targets should all be standing next to the mage to have same damage like warrior whirlwind.

    only going to quote the part of @Seth post that's relevant 

    this is exactly my point if the monsters' stayed away i would have no trouble but as i have said over and over be it a thrower an archer or a mage guess what you get surrounded but have no effective AOE like WW i want to balance that i have complained before about no WW throwing weapon ...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,183
    edited December 2021
    That's not really true. If you were to use the boomerang you are able to hit additional mobs ( https://www.uoguide.com/Boomerang ) using mystic arc. This is similar to lightning arrow on the shortbow for archery. 

    I think this topic has been driven pretty far in to the ground at this point but the idea of an archer/thrower etc being able to do some sort of whirlwind attack with their ranged weapons would completely overpower those skills (area spells already work similar) if they are dishing 70-100dmg per hit to everything in that area AND they are 7-10 tiles away.

    Let's not pretend that it wouldn't be insanely overpowered in just about every sense. A warrior wouldn't even be able to kill anything before the archer bots "whirlwind arrow" everything on the screen...AND they have even less chance of dying.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    edited December 2021
    McDougle said:
    Whirlwind is surrounded by up to 8 targets in close contact right next to the warrior. Ofcourse warrior also have Hit area effect but that has much less damage. 

    Mages' area effects spell can be any target near or far and it spreads from the center. If mages want the same area effect with same damage, then maybe the targets should all be standing next to the mage to have same damage like warrior whirlwind.

    only going to quote the part of @ Seth post that's relevant 

    this is exactly my point if the monsters' stayed away i would have no trouble but as i have said over and over be it a thrower an archer or a mage guess what you get surrounded but have no effective AOE like WW i want to balance that i have complained before about no WW throwing weapon ...
    I don’t think I need to discuss further since you are getting off topic trying to get every template to have WW. You just like mages, archers, tamers and maybe mules to have whirlwind don’t you?

    I rest my case and if Dev even bother to listen and accept your proposal, then I have serious question if they understand r p g as well.

    I also like some off topic imbalance complaint, Ultima online is so weird, any template can have TANK defense by using full 70 resist suit and 45 dci. There is no real tank template in Ultimaonline, unless you use Mana and some special skills.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,032
    Ok let's take AOE equality off the table. Let's talk slayer talis for mages?
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    McDougle said:
    Ok let's take AOE equality off the table. Let's talk slayer talis for mages?

    Sure, you mean compare with the slayer spellbooks?
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    Mages also need to reduce sdi, it's too high. Also must have Hit Chance Increase because it's unfair they don't miss.

    these are sarcastic remarks @McDougle
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,032
    Seth said:
    McDougle said:
    Ok let's take AOE equality off the table. Let's talk slayer talis for mages?

    Sure, you mean compare with the slayer spellbooks?


    you get slayer weapons and talisman i want same for mage
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    Yes, we are still short of a Fey Cameo.

    @Kyronix ;
    Pls add that missing Fey slayer cameo for 2022. 
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • AragornAragorn Posts: 285
    will Fey cameo be a OP item as it will then free up one weapon property slot ? 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,028
    Since we are talking about Spellcasters vs. Warriors, I would like to know, why on earth, while Warriors CAN have their Refinements to adjust their non-medable armor, Spellcasters, instead, cannot equally have "their " Refinements and thus be able to adjust "their " medable armor....

    https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/crafting/armor-refinement/

    Armor Refinement allows players to apply Refinements to non-medable armor. 

    Perhaps, a good start could be adding to Ultima Online "also" Refinements for medable armor which then Spellcasters could adjust and use ?

  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,192
    popps said:
    Since we are talking about Spellcasters vs. Warriors, I would like to know, why on earth, while Warriors CAN have their Refinements to adjust their non-medable armor, Spellcasters, instead, cannot equally have "their " Refinements and thus be able to adjust "their " medable armor....

    https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/crafting/armor-refinement/

    Armor Refinement allows players to apply Refinements to non-medable armor. 

    Perhaps, a good start could be adding to Ultima Online "also" Refinements for medable armor which then Spellcasters could adjust and use ?

    Because a mage does not need DCI. If refinements for medable reduced LMC then it would be fair.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    Refined armor, dci drops anyway. All 75 resist and 20 dci left, so will end up worse then mage who:
    Don’t refine, all 70 resist and full 45 dci.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,032
    Perhaps @popps should start his own thread about warrior vs mage defense because I'm talking slayer talisman for mages...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • popps said:
    Since we are talking about Spellcasters vs. Warriors, I would like to know, why on earth, while Warriors CAN have their Refinements to adjust their non-medable armor, Spellcasters, instead, cannot equally have "their " Refinements and thus be able to adjust "their " medable armor....

    https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/crafting/armor-refinement/

    Armor Refinement allows players to apply Refinements to non-medable armor. 

    Perhaps, a good start could be adding to Ultima Online "also" Refinements for medable armor which then Spellcasters could adjust and use ?

    Who says mages must use medable armor?

    There are good reasons for mages not to use medable armor.

    Remember, the UO team nerfed the head slot transmog potion.  I would have liked a bone scholars halo that could have mage armor stripped.  Alas, that was not to be.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,321
    McDougle said:
    Perhaps @ popps should start his own thread about warrior vs mage defense because I'm talking slayer talisman for mages...
    After some thoughts I don't see why slayer Talisman should not apply to mages. They are capped at double slayer anyway, like the rest such as dragon slayer. 


    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • RinerRiner Posts: 160
    Talking about SDI I am curious I have 180 SDI right now, what is the high for a mage?
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,032
    Riner said:
    Talking about SDI I am curious I have 180 SDI right now, what is the high for a mage?
    There's no official cap but some mumbo jumbo about diminishing returns 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
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