Major reforging - Durability bug ?

ForeverFun

Pawain said:

I see where you are coming from but I just figure that it was designed to take forever to make a nice piece.  Part of the stupid risk vs reward.

I wouldn't speculate too much on why it is, as it could limit thinking about how it should be.  By way of analogy, consider the FAT16 file system, developed many years ago.  The limits put in place at the time may have made sense then, but do we really want to be limited to disk volumes only a few GB in size today?

Pawain said:

That stupid anvil is completely useless for reforging. 10 charges is a joke.

OR

If they thought 10 charges would make at least 1 sweet piece, Reforging is broken!

Your comments on the number of charges is an interesting one.  A "quick and dirty" fix to some of the problems at hand is simply to increase the number of charges, on the runic tools, and the anvil.  I'd say a factor of 100 would be an interesting one to look at (so the tools would simply start dropping with x100 charges vs. today).  That still retains the "time tradeoff" that may be a factor.

In terms of "time tradeoff", and economic factors, let's look at an example.  It's a pretty harsh illustration, and it doesn't require speculation.

First, some data:

A balron drops about 1500gp per kill, averaged over several kills. 
Using a demon slayer for direct attacks, pet, and discordance, these can be killed at a rate of 3 per minute (includes respawn time).  So 4500gp per minute.  Your mileage may vary a bit.

Killing balrons is a legal way to earn gold, and can be done by many players, year round.  There may be more efficient ways to earn gold, but this is a good general example that works year round.

From vendor search on atlantic, lowest price hits:

ash saw = 2M for 35 charges   1,333 balrons * 20 seconds per = 444 minutes

heartwood = 36M for 90 charges  24,000 balrons = 8,000 minutes

The shield I sited before does not seem to be worth 3.6M gp (or 2,400 balrons, 800 minutes). Nor are all the others that were created around that. 

Such an endeavor would be very mind numbing, and probably would put off [new] players.  And that's just for one saw...

dvvid

dam that really puts it into perspective @ForeverFun ;

Yoshi

“People price the saws at a price they sell for, I buy the saws, I like reforging”

McDougle

If PVP was random like crafting some folks would be screaming ....

McDougle

Ok i want to craft 
Studded Sleeves 
190 luck
8  lmc
2 MR

Ok how many charges is acceptable to you ?? 

Yoshi

McDougle said:

Ok i want to craft 
Studded Sleeves 
190 luck
8  lmc
2 MR

Ok how many charges is acceptable to you ?? 

"that would take about 1 horned kit, you might have charges left over"

McDougle

Yoshi said:

McDougle said:

Ok i want to craft 
Studded Sleeves 
190 luck
8  lmc
2 MR

Ok how many charges is acceptable to you ?? 

"that would take about 1 horned kit, you might have charges left over"

Ok so I've only used what 30 charges now i have 150 luck 8 lmc 2 mr ?? 

Now comes the wonderful part spend real money for the tool or take a chance on destroying my piece now i guess since I've only burned through 30 charges losing it wouldn't be bad...

Now let's go to Mcdougles fantasy world where crafting isn't random but all other skills are 

Merv the nox mage faces off vs noobious the dexxor

Merv cast poison wait no create food what is he thinking noobious is sure to destroy him he gets close and swings hit no no wait he stabbed himself....

Yoshi

"you have imbuing to give you exactly what you want 100% of the time, if you want to go over the caps on something, or want some other special mods, you have reforging.

For my most ambitious reforging projects, i spent maybe 50 mill max on tools, but that is very good value for the piece which will last forever, it's equivelent to paying 50mill for a piece of armor, all or my non reforged armor i would currently price at 200 mill if i was to buy

As for spending real money on the forged metal of artifacts tool, i do agree that is bad because it's pay to win however thankfully you can normally purchase them for gold in game.

Which is strange that you can't sell items for real money, but you're allowed to buy items for real money and sell for gold...?"

McDougle

Yoshi said:

"you have imbuing to give you exactly what you want 100% of the time, if you want to go over the caps on something, you have reforging.

As for spending real money on the forged metal of artifacts tool, i do agree that is bad because it's pay to win however thankfully you can normally purchase them for gold in game.

Which is strange that you can't sell items for real money, but you're allowed to buy items for real money and sell for gold...?"

Imbuing is ok if the weight was raised and you could in fact imbuing anything on anything  ....for me discussing "bug" when crafting is so fundamentally broken that random is the norm is ludicrous..

ForeverFun

Reforging for 150 luck isn't the greatest example to use, it's pretty straightforward to do that.  However, comparing a crafted reforged+imbued luck piece to a no-named 8 mod major or legendary artifact loot drop luck counterpart, there is no comparison, the no-name can win big.  AFAIK, you *must* use a forged metal tool to get 190 luck - a formula posted a while back showed a 0% enhance chance of success going from 150-190 luck  (shields not requiring forged tool may have been an anomaly that was "fixed").

My analysis in prior post also didn't touch on the "supply" side of the runic tools problem.  There were very few runic saws for sale on Atlantic.  Good luck doing that craft in the youtube video, even if you can afford 2,000,000,000 gp in runic tools (1,333,333 balrons 444,444 minutes - 308 days).   You can also express the economics in terms of "number of roof runs with bag of sending/etc", but they too come out looking grim.  And that's not taking into account the grind time producing the craft after you get the tools.

You can end up with reforged items that come under the imbuing weight limit, yet cannot be imbued (mod cap).

Summarizing some of the suggested improvements so far:

1. Allow the number of mods to be specified during re-forge (consume a tool charges, etc).
2. Remove the imbuing mod cap of 5.
3. Address the durability issue called out by Garret
4. Increase the number of charges provided on the runic tools, and the anvil of artifacts. (drop charge count multiplied by 100)
5. Allow more control over which mods get placed on reforge, by consuming peerless/new ingredients, or consuming many more tool charges.
6. Increase the allowed imbuing weights -- nobody has supplied specific numbers though?  (Lesser Artifact, Greater, Major, Legendary weights?)