Diminishing return at wildfire

hi can someone explain to me what exactly diminishing returns in wildfire event is.

I was on my tamer who was stealthed at fire dungeon by the fire elements across the rope, I did kill a few other spawns  near the entrance  Was there 45 mins and got no artifact to turn in.   No drop

I was on my tamer on Seige, where the spawn rate is extremely slow.
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Comments

  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,027
    Killing the same monster over and over lowers odds and if I'm not mistaken being hidden effects the drop rate as well 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • It sounds like you aren't very effective at killing stuff. 45 mins is WAY more time than it takes to get a drop. Playing slowly on my tamer slowly I can get one every 10 min easily.

    Also, being invised when fighting with pets dramatically lowers your chance to get drops. I don't know the exact implementation; like if it's lowering your luck or straight up lowering your chance at getting a drop, but you shouldn't stay invised when fighting with pets. This has been in-game for a long time and most people don't know about it. 

  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 1,451
    "I read somewhere that being hidden reduces your chance of artifact drop by 1000%, same mechanics as blackthorn dungeon, can't locate the source sorry" 
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,027
    Yoshi said:
    "I read somewhere that being hidden reduces your chance of artifact drop by 1000%, same mechanics as blackthorn dungeon, can't locate the source sorry" 
    Yes @Kyronix has discussed this before i seem to recall it's staying hidden for xxx amount of time that starts the diminishing returns 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 1,451
    "i average 6 arties an hour afk not hidden, tried hidden - did not receive any while hidden"
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • GoldieGoldie Posts: 140
    edited June 2021
    thanks for the reply's :)

    When deceit was on there was a tamer with a few cu's where the teleport is to the 3rd level on Atlantic.  He was hidden lots, his cu's just killed anything that spawned in that little square room.   So your saying he didn't get many artie drops?
  • Victim_Of_SiegeVictim_Of_Siege Posts: 1,127
    Goldie said:
    thanks for the reply's :)

    When deceit was on there was a tamer with a few cu's where the teleport is to the 3rd level on Atlantic.  He was hidden lots, his cu's just killed anything that spawned in that little square room.   So your saying he didn't get many artie drops?
    Not as many as they could have if they were visible
    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • poppspopps Posts: 3,028
    McDougle said:
    Yoshi said:
    "I read somewhere that being hidden reduces your chance of artifact drop by 1000%, same mechanics as blackthorn dungeon, can't locate the source sorry" 
    Yes @ Kyronix has discussed this before i seem to recall it's staying hidden for xxx amount of time that starts the diminishing returns 
    And how much would that " xxx " time be ?

    Also, is it per " kill " ?

    Or is it per " drop " ?

    The thing is, that the Tamer gameplay NEEDS for the tamer to go into hiding....

    The pet, is the Tamer's Weapon. Therefore, the Tamer needs for the Monster to aggro the Pet rather then the Tamer since the Tamer needs to be free from fighting in order to heal continuously his/her pet.

    While the " Kill " command sets the pet onto a Monster, it does not necessarily set the Monster that was aggroed on the Tamer to swith aggro onto the pet.

    Only hiding does that (other then the Provocation skill), and only if the tamer stays into hiding sufficiently long for the Monster to "switch" their aggro onto the pet.

    My point being, that Tamers NEED to get into hiding to break aggro from the spawn onto them and have it switched onto their pet.

    And they HAVE TO get into hiding multiple times...

    This is the natural part of a Tamer's gameplay.

    Punishing this need to get into hiding by forcing diminishing returns and lower drops seems to be an excessive penalization of a legittimate gameplay strategy.

    Therefore, @Kyronix , could you PLEASE kindly let us know more in detail how the Code plays out in diving diminishing returns to a Tamer ?

    First and foremost, how much time is that " xxx " time that one stays hidden ?

    Is it a "one time" hidden time per kill ? Or per drop ?

    Or is it a "cumulative" hidden time that results over multiple hidings that a Tamer might need to hide to break aggro over one kill ? Or over multiple kills leading to one drop ?

    I mean, it would be beneficial to Tamers to know how it works so that their legittimate gameplay of needing to hide to break aggro, would not penalize them towards their chances at a drop...

    Thanks.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,027
    I invis or stealth hide i don't stay that way once again do you want someone to come and teach you ? Or do you just want to write endless paragraphs about it...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,028
    edited June 2021
    Goldie said:
    thanks for the reply's :)

    When deceit was on there was a tamer with a few cu's where the teleport is to the 3rd level on Atlantic.  He was hidden lots, his cu's just killed anything that spawned in that little square room.   So your saying he didn't get many artie drops?
    Not as many as they could have if they were visible
    This looks to me the same thing as the randomization of resources...

    For a scripter, the "reduced" returns are totally meaningless.....

    Why ?

    Because they are NOT using their real life time, they use a script, have it run on their computer, and they go do something else in their real life and let the script run.

    So, that they get diminishing returns, they could not care less because those diminishing returns are largely compensated by their enormously increased time in the game, AFK, thanking to their script running.

    Those players who are REALLY screwed by these diminishing returns, are ALL of the players who LEGITTIMATELY play AT THE KEYBOARD, but using that gameplay Tactics which causes the diminishing returns...

    In our case here for this Thread, the killing of the spawn at a given location, or hiding to break aggro....

    Again, AFK scripter DO NOT CARE about this Diminishing Returns code, because they can script AFK 24/7 if so they want.... 

    Sure, they get less drops due to the diminishing return but, their extremely longer time running the script, largely offsets the diminishing retuns and still brings them home a whole lot of drops or high end resources, regardless of their randomization....

    I have said it a lot of times that, to my opinion, the "punishing" of legittimate gameplay to try curb scripters only really punishes legittimate gameplay and players, NOT the scripters who can still bring home their "goodies" thanking to being able to run their scripts 24/7....

    What Broadsword should do, to my opinion, should be going after AFK scripting itself, and not putting in solutions like the randomization of Resources or these diminishing returns which only affect legit resource gatherers and Tamers who need to hide to break Monsters' aggro...

    @Kyronix , please, would it be possible to see solutions that are more directed to identifying AFK scripters and address them, rather then punishing legittimate AT THE KEYBOARD players ?

    Take Endless Journey accounts recently being banned from General Chat and being relegated to the Help Chat only...

    Why not address those AFK scripting SPAMMING in General Chat rather then punishing, with that decision, also legittimate EJ accounts players who now can no longer talk in General Chat ?

    I mean, WHY on earth don't you guys straight address AFK scripting once and for all, rather then putting in these solutions which may affect legittimate players and hurt their gameplay so much??

    I do not get it.
  • RonFellowsRonFellows Posts: 48
    Does anyone else HATE it when people CAPITALIZE words to put EMPHASIS on them? It come off pretty OBNOXIOUS. Also, what’s your solution boss? Captchas every 20 mins? It’s easy to cry about a problem you don’t have a solution for and can’t begin to understand what it would take to solve such problem. 
  • MissEMissE Posts: 774
    edited June 2021
    Does anyone else HATE it when people CAPITALIZE words to put EMPHASIS on them? It come off pretty OBNOXIOUS. Also, what’s your solution boss? Captchas every 20 mins? It’s easy to cry about a problem you don’t have a solution for and can’t begin to understand what it would take to solve such problem. 

    Nope, it is a hangover from platforms like facebook etc that don't allow BOLD type so people have got in the habit of capitalizing words instead of using bold.   No big deal unless you wanna be anal about it.  Whole sentences is still rude and obnoxious though as that is SHOUTING!

    Cheers MissE

    For more info about Angelwood Warehouse Events go to the A.W.E Forum
  • GoldieGoldie Posts: 140
    thanks for the replys :)
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,028
    Does anyone else HATE it when people CAPITALIZE words to put EMPHASIS on them? It come off pretty OBNOXIOUS. Also, what’s your solution boss? Captchas every 20 mins? It’s easy to cry about a problem you don’t have a solution for and can’t begin to understand what it would take to solve such problem. 
    The reason for that type of writing, at least to my viewing, is to have certain "key" words be highlighted... the reason for doing this, is that some people when they read, they skip through the words to read faster.... by having a few, key words being highlighted or in caps, that would at least make it possible for the reader to get the sense of what one has written, since those words being highlighted or in caps are key words in their meaning of that context...

    So, it really is to make the reading faster and better get the sense of what one has written, the crux of it.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,190
    Get to the point and we won't skim through your novels.
  • Victim_Of_SiegeVictim_Of_Siege Posts: 1,127
    Pawain said:
    Get to the point and we won't skim through your novels.
    Agreed you can make a point in very few words. if you want to . . .
    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • GoldieGoldie Posts: 140
    Thanks for the info, but it seems I have a couple more questions on how points are gained.

    When you die and your pet is still killing stuff and you run out to get a res.  Do you still get points while dead?   if yes does it spawn on your corpse if your point became a event drop?

    Next question how longs a paragon stay a paragon in events like this if no one kills it.  Does it go back to normal, non paragon?


  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,027
    Assume no you get no drops while dead . Once a paragon always a paragon...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • GwenGwen Posts: 182
    Goldie said:
    Thanks for the info, but it seems I have a couple more questions on how points are gained.

    When you die and your pet is still killing stuff and you run out to get a res.  Do you still get points while dead?   if yes does it spawn on your corpse if your point became a event drop?

    Next question how longs a paragon stay a paragon in events like this if no one kills it.  Does it go back to normal, non paragon?


    I am thinking (cannot prove it) you are getting score when you are  dead. 
    There is some pool, increasing your possibility to get n item. Every mob gives you a chance to get it. But the higher your pool - the higher are our chances. 
    I get an item quite often after I ressed , some nasty stuff kiled me and pet finished it. Getting no drop in your corpse, but will get drop  sooner. 
    At least this is what I beleive. 
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,077
    I believe that if you were alive when the fight began, you will get the drop if you were due one. But you won't get drops from subsequent fights the pet may engage in until you are alive again.

    I'm no mind reader, but having played for many years, I would venture to guess that the idea is to discourage players who might be tempted to stay dead and leave the pet to fight on alone.
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 970Dev
    Goldie said:
    hi can someone explain to me what exactly diminishing returns in wildfire event is.

    I was on my tamer who was stealthed at fire dungeon by the fire elements across the rope, I did kill a few other spawns  near the entrance  Was there 45 mins and got no artifact to turn in.   No drop

    I was on my tamer on Seige, where the spawn rate is extremely slow.
    Being hidden and/or killing the same of creature over and over again will diminish your returns.  You need to move around, and kill fresh types of spawn in order to maximize your gains.
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 721
    Goldie.  I kill the smaller stuff, help other players kill the bigger stuff and heal the dead. That usually gets me a drop about every half hour.  I do invis. for short periods occasionally.  Don’t play a tamer so don’t know for sure if this helps you.  But it works for me.  You don’t need to solo paragons to get drops  but think it does help if you can damage them while they are occupied fighting some one else’s pet.  Also, might help to have your pet go in and out of the fight.  These para’s switch targets during the fight and that can get you killed very quickly.
  • DragoDrago Posts: 267
    edited July 2021
    Is diminishing returns timing based as well?  I took few days off for 4th of july, I come back and get 3 wildfire items within 20 minutes (in tram no less).   Either that or its christmas in july...
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,190
    Drago said:
    Is diminishing returns timing based as well?  I took few days off for 4th of july, I come back and get 3 wildfire items within 20 minutes (in tram no less).   Either that or its christmas in july...
    Nope I came back from a week off and hit my luck statue and got 3 drops that first hour...
  • GoldieGoldie Posts: 140
    thanks  for replys :)

    hi Kyronix  On Seige I do move around, I go into the dungeon stealthed with pet behind, once my pet attacks something, I go out of hiding(as long as I know there is no pkers around) and stay out of hiding till my pet is done killing the mob, then I stealth more into the dungeon and I do the same thing over and over again till I am at the door where the grave yard it.  Its a slow respawn in the dungeon entrance and path before the door where the grave yard is, and usually there is paras just on the other side of the door( or at the front when you first get into the dungeon).  So I stealth back to the front of the dungeon till I see spawn again or a pk thats going to kill me, which happens 98% of the time cause on seige  theres always pkers around.   
     
    See I move around and I kill different things.  I was just wondering about diminishing returns.  This process I have to get a drop is very very slow, which is why I was wondering about diminishing returns.   
     
    thank you Kyronix  and all the helped me understand this :)    This is not a complaint in any way shape or form, but trying to understand diminishing returns cause 1 drop an hour is slow, and now i know why :)

    I know on Atlantic doing the dungeon in tram is a lot different cause I go there and do it at times.  I don't hide there ever lots of people lots of spawn ( no pkers).  On seige is very challenging, I don't mind it at times, I do not pvp can't so I am as they say a lamb.  But I like seige don't want to quit it, but it can stress me at times.  So off to Atlantic I go for a moment then I try seige again.   

    Thank you all, sorry for long post  :)
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,028
    edited July 2021
    Goldie said:
    thanks  for replys :)

    hi Kyronix  On Seige I do move around, I go into the dungeon stealthed with pet behind, once my pet attacks something, I go out of hiding(as long as I know there is no pkers around) and stay out of hiding till my pet is done killing the mob, then I stealth more into the dungeon and I do the same thing over and over again till I am at the door where the grave yard it.  Its a slow respawn in the dungeon entrance and path before the door where the grave yard is, and usually there is paras just on the other side of the door( or at the front when you first get into the dungeon).  So I stealth back to the front of the dungeon till I see spawn again or a pk thats going to kill me, which happens 98% of the time cause on seige  theres always pkers around.   
     
    See I move around and I kill different things.  I was just wondering about diminishing returns.  This process I have to get a drop is very very slow, which is why I was wondering about diminishing returns.   
     
    thank you Kyronix  and all the helped me understand this :)    This is not a complaint in any way shape or form, but trying to understand diminishing returns cause 1 drop an hour is slow, and now i know why :)

    I know on Atlantic doing the dungeon in tram is a lot different cause I go there and do it at times.  I don't hide there ever lots of people lots of spawn ( no pkers).  On seige is very challenging, I don't mind it at times, I do not pvp can't so I am as they say a lamb.  But I like seige don't want to quit it, but it can stress me at times.  So off to Atlantic I go for a moment then I try seige again.   

    Thank you all, sorry for long post  :)
    @Kyronix ;

    As @Goldie has indicated, he/she plays on Siege which, as we know, has a PvP ruleset.

    Therefore, as Goldie has indicated, staying hidden and stealthing while playing PvM, there, even more then in Felucca on Production Shards, might pretty much be, not just a necessity, but an indispensable aspect of gameplay....

    And why would that be ?

    Because, over the Years, the Developers have decided to "separate" PvP gameplay and gear from PvM gameplay and gear.

    That is, "what works" for PvM, does not do for PvP..... 

    Which it results in the outcome that a player geared up and fit for PvM, like for trying to get drops at these Dynamic Tokuno Event types, is then not necessarily fit for PvP.

    And, I need to imagine, on a PvP ruleset facet, and even moreso on Siege, I would think, for a PvM geared up character, being able to repeteadly Hide and NOT run all over the place to find kills, that is being able to find an off the way corner and find Monsters to kill, repeteadly, would be the only way to be able to play a PvM Event on those Shards. Being found by a Pkiller means, for a PvM geared up character, not being able to defend oneself properly and, usually, since Pkillers wait for their Targets to be low on health from Monsters before attacking them, often this means sure death, if having to stay always visible and always changing Monsters' Targets, because of the Diminishing returns code....

    So, by reducing the drops when one hides, and when one keeps killing the same monster over and over due to "Diminishing Returns Code", as Goldie mentioned, basically the UO Designers have made this "PvM" Treasures of.... Events, hardly playable and enjoyable on PvP Siege and Mugen Shards, I would imagine.

    No wonder that these PvP rulesets loose players every day some more, if one looks at how the Design of these Events is done in a way that conjures against making it possible for players to play these PvM Treasures Of.... type of Events there....

    I can understand that, as Developers, you might want to implement these diminishing Return "code" for Trammel Ruleset to prevent Camping, but, for PvP ruleset facets, certainly for Siege and Mugen Shards, to my opinion, it should absolutely be deactivated, and, at least on these 2 Shards, you should permit players on Siege and Mugen to be able to collect their drops by fighting PvM, on a PvP Shard, while being able to hide, stealth and keep killing the same Monster over and over. NO Diminishing Return Code there.

    Or, if you do not want to deactivate this Code on those Shards, then do not be surprised to see every day more and more players abandon playing on those Shards and Rulesets and them becoming, even moreso, dead Shards.

    Players react to your Design decisions, and if your Design decisions, as Goldie experienced, make a player on Siege and Mugen end up only having 1 drop an hour, because they HAVE TO always hide and stealth and cannot run to hit different Monsters all over the place, thus being visible all the time on a PvM Template, thus being vulnerable to PvP attackers, then players might start thinking about "why" bothering playing on those Shards at all, when the type of Design that is implemented does not permit them to enjoying those PvM Events there.....

    The bottom line argument is, to my viewing, that it is NOT possible to implement the same type of Design for a PvM Facet like Trammel is, and put it on PvP Servers like Siege and Mugen are.

    It cannot work, to my opinion.

    Players trying to do PvM content on PvP Shards such as Siege and Mugen NEED to hide, they NEED to Stealth, they may NEED to have to keep killing the same Monster over and over in an out of the way place that perhaps is not much patrolled by PvP attackers.

    If your Design force these players to have to be always visible, and to have to run all over the Dungeon to change targets, such a Design is basically forcing players fit for PvM to HAVE TO remain highly vulnerable to PvP attackers, always...

    It is a design which makes things even easier for Pkillers and ends up driving even more players AWAY from wanting to play on those Shards, me thinks. If they cannot enjoy these Treasure of... PvM type of Events on those Shards, why bother with them at all ?

    Because, a PvM fit and geared character is not as good for PvP just like a PvP fit and geared character is not fit for PvM as it has been so, unfortunately, in Ultima Online, for Years and Years, because of Design decisions made long time ago.

    To my viewing, the proper Design decision here would be to entirely deactivate the Diminishing Return code for Siege and Mugen rulesets and, thus, permit to players there, like Goldie, trying to enjoy PvM content, to be able to do so even if they hide, stealth, and they keep killing the same Monster over and over.

    After all, on those Rulesets, players can be killed and looted as they have no insurance, I seem to understand, so, the "farming concerns" that you may have for the Trammel ruleset for which this "Diminishing Returns Code" was originally conceived, are a no-issue there, I need to imagine. Players found farming on those Shards, can be killed and looted.

    So, WHY do you keep the same Trammel code for Diminishing Returns remain as active, also for Siege and Mugen ?

    Don't you realize that, in doing so, this might eventually get more and more players leave those Shards and no longer play on them because they simply are prevented by this Design to be able to enjoy PvM content on those Shards ?

    I mean, as Goldie mentioned, having 1 drop an hour there, because of the Diminishing Returns code, to my opinion, is not acceptable.

    And when players face non acceptable Design, they just quit playing the game, it is an understandable consequence, I would guess.

    You guys are the Designers, and of course the choices and the decisions are fully yours.

    Just do not be surprised then, when you see players abandoning and quitting the game.

    Of course, this is just the way I see it.
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    LMAO Shakes head and walks away, it's back.
    See the source image
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,028
    edited July 2021
    Bilbo said:
    LMAO Shakes head and walks away, it's back.
    See the source image
    Sometimes, a reality check might be important to have....

    Players play the game to have fun, if the Design makes it not fun, then what is the point of playing?

    And, by the way, the more players want to play, the more resources Ultima Online would get from subscriptions.... therefore, I would imagine, the # 1 Priority should make content be Fun for players, not an impossible task....

    I mean, would you find 1 drop an hour for a "Treasure of...." type of Event to be enjoyable content, for items then costing 200 points which it would mean 200 hours of gameplay ?

    Seriously ?

    To me it is so obvious that something here is not working right for Ultima Online, that it should not even need anyone to point it out.....
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,027
    you choose to stealth on Seige you don't have to you choose to play on a pvp server no changes needed
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,028
    edited July 2021
    McDougle said:
    you choose to stealth on Seige you don't have to you choose to play on a pvp server no changes needed
    You are perhaps confusing a "choice", with a "necessity".

    They are entirely 2 different things.

    Having to hide and Stealth on Siege and Mugen (and also on Felucca although, with insurance, there this is a less relevant issue) is a must have, not much of a choice, I would imagine.

    Having a Design like "Diminishing Returns" which penalizes a survival "necessity" like hiding, stealthing, and possibly killing the same monster over and over in an out of the way place, away from patrolled spots by pkillers, is, to my opinion, an unfortunate Design decision (or just an oversight ?) which might only further drive away players from the game, at least on those Shards.

    Furthermore, as I mentioned, to my understanding the "Diminishing Returns code" was mainly conceived to address farmers on Trammel ruleset.

    On Siege and Mugen, which are PvP ruleset, and where players farming can be killed and looted, I can only imagine that farming is of no concern or, at the very least, not in the same capacity as it might be on the Trammel ruleset.

    Therefore, the "Diminishing Return code" on Siege and Mugen, has no place, is not needed, and only does harm and can possibly cause further loss of players to those Shards which, I would imagine, would not be a good thing for those playing those Shards, included pkillers.... I mean, if players abandon those Shards because Design does not help them to enjoy PvM content on them, who would the pkillers find to then kill ?

    Consequentially, to my viewing, changes do are needed, to the Design code for these Events on those Shards.....
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