Non-Consensual PvP for the new Legacy Shard

Seth

Wess said:

I didn't vote. Add a "merge and fix server issues" as an option to vote and lets take a look

haha, I might vote differently if the topic is not in the context of Legacy server only. Yeah not to forget the main concern was our existing shard issue.

Marge

What many people fail to realize is there is probably an actual 50/50 split between people that want (like) pvp and people that don't want (HATE) pvp. We are all focused on what we know, who we play with, and the game features that entertain us.. For every person you, the pvper, knows that left to pvp nerfs; we, the other side, know just as many that quit because they got tired of pvpers. ( We also get nerfed because of pvpers [ie the phoenix] ) Both sides believe the developers listen to the the other other side more.

Just like we get tired of pvper's running on and on in general chat, we get tired of it in the forums too. Just like with politics, we get tired of talking in circles when nothing the other side says will ever get us to change our minds. Most people I know don't even bother reading the forums - much less voting on a forum player poll.

And yes, the 700 views are caused by the 27 people that voted on this poll and are viewing the post each time a new post is written.

Aragorn

i still don’t understand why we need to choose a definite answer for a server running seasonal theme and why can’t we run through all options there, then we know which one is more popular with hard evidence and don’t need to argue here by these 27 people. And again i believe the first few seasons should be shortened to 6 months or even shorter in order to gather more feedback on different things then we can run longer season for what people love.

keven2002

Aragorn said:

i still don’t understand why we need to choose a definite answer for a server running seasonal theme and why can’t we run through all options there, then we know which one is more popular with hard evidence and don’t need to argue here by these 27 people. And again i believe the first few seasons should be shortened to 6 months or even shorter in order to gather more feedback on different things then we can run longer season for what people love.

Not a bad idea but I think there is some importance to the first season in order to bring as many people into the game as possible. Picking one of them incorrectly which doesn't speak to a majority of people will essentially waste the idea. 

I honestly think that it really depends on how they plan to build game mechanics on Legacy; if it's going to be the same Legendary item type game play like on live shards there is no way PvP will be received well (even I'd disagree with Non Con & No insurance). If they plan to go back to something more simple like when you could resuit at the local blacksmith then I think that's more inline with Non Con & No insurance bc when you do die, you just need to go get another suit which is easy to do. 

quickblade

The devs are playing in such high risky terrain with this new shard, by that I mean if it was to fail what would happen you think? A bunch of current OSI players, leaving to try out free shards is my guess.... 
Another note : the new shard will just have a decrease in population of all shards ( which lets be honest some of them are already so dead...)

popps

Aragorn said:

i still don’t understand why we need to choose a definite answer for a server running seasonal theme and why can’t we run through all options there, then we know which one is more popular with hard evidence and don’t need to argue here by these 27 people. And again i believe the first few seasons should be shortened to 6 months or even shorter in order to gather more feedback on different things then we can run longer season for what people love.

Why don't they do TWO New Legacy Servers, one all focused on PvP and anything goes and the other, on PvM and no PvP at all ?

And then, we see which one gets more popular and go from there ?

@Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak , what do you think about this ?

TastyTreats

Why don't they just stick with their current plan and go from there? Consensual PvP with some  Non Consensual PvP zones.

Let's give them a chance to strike a good balance and hopefully everything works out. As long as the Non-Con zones have a draw similar to powerscrolls that will encourage large scale guild warfare I will be happy with the balance personally.

I would prefer a permanent shard with a pure non consensual ruleset so players can police their own server. But for a seasonal shard I can see where they want to try to appeal to everyone and it's a tough line to walk so hopefully they get it right.

JohnKnighthawke

TastyTreats said:

I would prefer a permanent shard with a pure non consensual ruleset so players can police their own server.

The only people this worked for back when we actually had it were those that required the policing.  But I guess that's the point to a lot of folks.

popps

TastyTreats said:

Why don't they just stick with their current plan and go from there? Consensual PvP with some  Non Consensual PvP zones.

Let's give them a chance to strike a good balance and hopefully everything works out. As long as the Non-Con zones have a draw similar to powerscrolls that will encourage large scale guild warfare I will be happy with the balance personally.

I would prefer a permanent shard with a pure non consensual ruleset so players can police their own server. But for a seasonal shard I can see where they want to try to appeal to everyone and it's a tough line to walk so hopefully they get it right.

I would prefer a permanent shard with a pure non consensual ruleset so players can police their own server.

I may well be a pessimist but I simply do not think that players policing fellow players can work at all.

I think and am convinced that the policing needs to come from up above, from the Developers, through a set of rules and mechanics which then players have to go by.

At least, that is how I see it.

Bilbo

Wess said:

I didn't vote. Add a "merge and fix server issues" as an option to vote and lets take a look

We are talking about the new shard not all of UO.

Pawain

Marge said:

What many people fail to realize is there is probably an actual 50/50 split between people that want (like) pvp and people that don't want (HATE) pvp. We are all focused on what we know, who we play with, and the game features that entertain us.. For every person you, the pvper, knows that left to pvp nerfs; we, the other side, know just as many that quit because they got tired of pvpers. ( We also get nerfed because of pvpers [ie the phoenix] ) Both sides believe the developers listen to the the other other side more.

Just like we get tired of pvper's running on and on in general chat, we get tired of it in the forums too. Just like with politics, we get tired of talking in circles when nothing the other side says will ever get us to change our minds. Most people I know don't even bother reading the forums - much less voting on a forum player poll.

And yes, the 700 views are caused by the 27 people that voted on this poll and are viewing the post each time a new post is written.

If the 50/50 were true:

Every once in a while PvP appears in Chat on LS.  They have a lot of fun.  But, I never see anyone that is PvMing leave and go get their PvP toons.  I do see the PvP alts doing PvM.

Wess

Bilbo said:

Wess said:

I didn't vote. Add a "merge and fix server issues" as an option to vote and lets take a look

We are talking about the new shard not all of UO.

    So am i, this is not going to be a total rewrite of Ultima, quite honestly it feels like a test bed for removing Fell moving forward. One shard with consensual PVP. Makes sense, half the resources to run the game 1/2 the problems and a year to test it out. Then again thats just tin hat talk.
   BUT, issues in existing UO is very likely to carry over, again, not a total rewrite, some of these issues are decades old. The fact that this test be.. i mean new server is going to pull an already razor thin playerbase into an already thinner population existence then it is now means talking about this test be, i mean new server without considering the effects of all servers at this point would just be ignorance. 

My opinion anyway.

keven2002

Pawain said:

Marge said:

What many people fail to realize is there is probably an actual 50/50 split between people that want (like) pvp and people that don't want (HATE) pvp. We are all focused on what we know, who we play with, and the game features that entertain us.. For every person you, the pvper, knows that left to pvp nerfs; we, the other side, know just as many that quit because they got tired of pvpers. ( We also get nerfed because of pvpers [ie the phoenix] ) Both sides believe the developers listen to the the other other side more.

Just like we get tired of pvper's running on and on in general chat, we get tired of it in the forums too. Just like with politics, we get tired of talking in circles when nothing the other side says will ever get us to change our minds. Most people I know don't even bother reading the forums - much less voting on a forum player poll.

And yes, the 700 views are caused by the 27 people that voted on this poll and are viewing the post each time a new post is written.

If the 50/50 were true:

Every once in a while PvP appears in Chat on LS.  They have a lot of fun.  But, I never see anyone that is PvMing leave and go get their PvP toons.  I do see the PvP alts doing PvM.

If there was Non Con PvP you would see more PvM ppl getting their PvP toons if they had them. That's how it went when I played pre AOS... get PK'ed on my miner or tamer; log and go back to right with mage or warrior. As it stands now when I'm PvMing in candy land there is no need to get my PvP char (although he's likely very dusty these days).

Bilbo

Wess said:

Bilbo said:

Wess said:

I didn't vote. Add a "merge and fix server issues" as an option to vote and lets take a look

We are talking about the new shard not all of UO.

    So am i, this is not going to be a total rewrite of Ultima, quite honestly it feels like a test bed for removing Fell moving forward. One shard with consensual PVP. Makes sense, half the resources to run the game 1/2 the problems and a year to test it out. Then again thats just tin hat talk.
   BUT, issues in existing UO is very likely to carry over, again, not a total rewrite, some of these issues are decades old. The fact that this test be.. i mean new server is going to pull an already razor thin playerbase into an already thinner population existence then it is now means talking about this test be, i mean new server without considering the effects of all servers at this point would just be ignorance. 

My opinion anyway.

Maybe you should educate your self about this new shard before saying anymore.

JohnKnighthawke

Cookie said:

"Basically UO was ahead of it's time, and the worldwide technology platform to make UO accesible to the masses only became available at the same time as Trammel. WoW was the real game to benefit by coincidence of timing of course, and rolling out a completely cohesive product at exactly the right time.

You can't always believe statistics, or the people who shout the loudest and play the victims all the time."

I'm from the UK, do you know what it was like playing UO in the early days in the UK?

It's not something I could admit to anyone I did. I'd had a couple of major sporting accidents that laid me up for a year, almost paralysed me, I got better in the end, but in the meantime, I got addicted to UO and it's been a huge and fun influence in my life. Although I probably admit, I've done very well in life, but god knows what I could have achieved without UO.  

Playing UO, in the early days, in the UK culture, was like having a mental illness. No-one could comprehend. Being a gamer wasn't a thing, it meant you were a serious loser and nerd, before people like me made those terms really cool and normalised them.

Times, viewpoints, and technology were very different in those days. Competition was a good thing, unlike today, where it's become frowned upon, and the concept of winners and losers is not the done thing, because it suggests everyone is not equal. The truth is, everyone is not equal, nature is cruel, UO at it's finest acknowledged this. UO captured the very real struggle that was life.

What a strange, odd comment to make.  UO of course is a game (a product, that will be important below), not nature, so the comparison here is bizarre. If UO is supposed to capture life then why all the dragons, unrealistic sword designs, bizarre armor types, and (in the old days) naked mages?  Why is the katana a one-handed weapon here when in real life it primarily was two-handed?  Why is the longsword exclusively a one-handed weapon here when in real life it could be used two-handed or one-handed?  Why does plate armor require high strength here?  Why can you put it on instantly, without help?  Why can't you use a shield with a spear?

Though if we're going to talk about competition, I note again that UO thrived when there was little competition.  When it had competition, which generally offered more positive and less competitive gameplay experiences, UO got hurt and had to change and adapt to survive.  In other words they very forces you seem to support in the context of a game you seem to not support in a very real life business context!  Must puzzling.

Further....It's a very strange contention that competition is not viewed as a good thing these days.  I see it all over the place and I see people talking all over the place about how good it is, how healthy it is, how it makes people better, etc.  I firstly note that this isn't true: Competing and winning against other people doesn't make you the best it just means you were the least worst in that particular competition.  I secondly note, again, that the real life competition of which game people will buy actually seems to, for UO-like games, favor games with less competition or, at least, less competition that you deem "life-like."  Your fellow customers have spoken, dude.  Seems like it's time to switch to a more combat focused game, a non-MMO.  Or you could play Eve Online and be one of the minority of players who regularly ventures out of that game's equivalent of Trammel.  Of course you'd have to contend with the apparently legal multi-boxing in that game

I could go on and on with the logical flaws in this post but frankly I don't have that kind of time, especially if I want to get back into UO tonight.

Cookie

JohnKnighthawke said:

What a strange, odd comment to make. 

I did have a post before that, that responded to your previous post, that I quoted from and linked it better. But somehow it got lost, I was in a hurry to get out the door, so the linking is not as good as I wanted.

I cannot be bothered either.

Bilbo

keven2002 said:

Pawain said:

Marge said:

What many people fail to realize is there is probably an actual 50/50 split between people that want (like) pvp and people that don't want (HATE) pvp. We are all focused on what we know, who we play with, and the game features that entertain us.. For every person you, the pvper, knows that left to pvp nerfs; we, the other side, know just as many that quit because they got tired of pvpers. ( We also get nerfed because of pvpers [ie the phoenix] ) Both sides believe the developers listen to the the other other side more.

Just like we get tired of pvper's running on and on in general chat, we get tired of it in the forums too. Just like with politics, we get tired of talking in circles when nothing the other side says will ever get us to change our minds. Most people I know don't even bother reading the forums - much less voting on a forum player poll.

And yes, the 700 views are caused by the 27 people that voted on this poll and are viewing the post each time a new post is written.

If the 50/50 were true:

Every once in a while PvP appears in Chat on LS.  They have a lot of fun.  But, I never see anyone that is PvMing leave and go get their PvP toons.  I do see the PvP alts doing PvM.

If there was Non Con PvP you would see more PvM ppl getting their PvP toons if they had them. That's how it went when I played pre AOS... get PK'ed on my miner or tamer; log and go back to right with mage or warrior. As it stands now when I'm PvMing in candy land there is no need to get my PvP char (although he's likely very dusty these days).

LMAO at how little you know about Pre-Tram and PKs.  AoS (2003) was not the downfall of PKs It was UOR (2000) that created Tram and if as a Miner or what ever type playstyle other than PvP/Champ Spawn you were doing outside of Tram ruleset was your own fault.  As far as your statement of Non-Con forcing PvMers getting PvPer toons out is total BS and the reason UOR came out was to prevent UO from dying, we were closing our accounts and leaving UO and EA saw the writting on the wall and told OSI to fix is NOW so UOR was released and Fel died.

Tim

The bottom line is. 
UO is a game and if to play it the player has to do too much they don't enjoy to get to the parts they do, they will quit and find a game they do enjoy. This applies to PvP, resource gathering or just grinding away at a spawn.

Bilbo

Tim said:

The bottom line is. 
UO is a game and if to play it the player has to do too much they don't enjoy to get to the parts they do, they will quit and find a game they do enjoy. This applies to PvP, resource gathering or just grinding away at a spawn.

AMEN

keven2002

Bilbo said:

keven2002 said:

Pawain said:

If the 50/50 were true:

Every once in a while PvP appears in Chat on LS.  They have a lot of fun.  But, I never see anyone that is PvMing leave and go get their PvP toons.  I do see the PvP alts doing PvM.

If there was Non Con PvP you would see more PvM ppl getting their PvP toons if they had them. That's how it went when I played pre AOS... get PK'ed on my miner or tamer; log and go back to right with mage or warrior. As it stands now when I'm PvMing in candy land there is no need to get my PvP char (although he's likely very dusty these days).

LMAO at how little you know about Pre-Tram and PKs.  AoS (2003) was not the downfall of PKs It was UOR (2000) that created Tram and if as a Miner or what ever type playstyle other than PvP/Champ Spawn you were doing outside of Tram ruleset was your own fault.  As far as your statement of Non-Con forcing PvMers getting PvPer toons out is total BS and the reason UOR came out was to prevent UO from dying, we were closing our accounts and leaving UO and EA saw the writting on the wall and told OSI to fix is NOW so UOR was released and Fel died.

If you carefully read what I wrote I said pre-AOS which is true. Sorry I didn't give you the exact release date. But I'm sure you know what I meant. That said, you obviously are the self proclaimed UO Historian and know everything that is UO but are obviously a Trammy (which is confirmed by you saying "we" were closing our accounts). My statement is 100% true because I'm talking from experience which I was PK'ed while on my tamer or Miner and then grabbing my PvPer (as I said) so take stop getting get bent out of shape little guy; it will all be ok.. things still exist just because they don't happen to you. The Devs already said you won't have to be afraid of the big bad man lurking in Fel ready to kill you because you seem to like to run your mouth when there aren't consequences.

PS. This is the EXACT reason we need to have Non-Con PvP because I'd love for you to act like that if I ran across you in the game. You would be worth a murder count... and probably even a rez kill.

Carry on Trammy.   

Pawain

keven2002 said:

PS. This is the EXACT reason we need to have Non-Con PvP because I'd love for you to act like that if I ran across you in the game. You would be worth a murder count... and probably even a rez kill.

Carry on Trammy.   

Exact attitude that will make the population of this new shard drop to nothing and be a failure.
We will not be sheep again. And if PvP is so popular why can't you do it now?

keven2002

Pawain said:

keven2002 said:

PS. This is the EXACT reason we need to have Non-Con PvP because I'd love for you to act like that if I ran across you in the game. You would be worth a murder count... and probably even a rez kill.

Carry on Trammy.   

Exact attitude that will make the population of this new shard drop to nothing and be a failure.
We will not be sheep again. And if PvP is so popular why can't you do it now?

Exact attitude and action in UO back in the day that would get you running to the guard zone too. 

Don't act like such a smug jerk in the game like you do on these boards and there wouldn't be an issue. It's people like that who are afraid of bringing back PvP like it was 15-20 years ago that are going to make the shard fail... you are only going to log in for more "rares" to bring back to your home shard. It's a very greedy mindset. New players won't be attracted to a game with "rares" that they have to wait X months to pick a new shard to collect/sell their Legacy rares. They need something to keep their attention and letting crap collect dust somewhere is not something that will do that. Sorry you don't like it but it's true.

Rorschach

Please resist name calling and finger pointing.

Pawain

keven2002 said:

Exact attitude and action in UO back in the day that would get you running to the guard zone too. 

Don't act like such a smug jerk in the game like you do on these boards and there wouldn't be an issue. It's people like that who are afraid of bringing back PvP like it was 15-20 years ago that are going to make the shard fail... you are only going to log in for more "rares" to bring back to your home shard. It's a very greedy mindset. New players won't be attracted to a game with "rares" that they have to wait X months to pick a new shard to collect/sell their Legacy rares. They need something to keep their attention and letting crap collect dust somewhere is not something that will do that. Sorry you don't like it but it's true.

How many items have I sold in the trade forums?  Probably can only bring back some deco and titles.  I want to try it out.  Luckily the devs know the facts about PvP.

Q: I do not want to play a game where another player can kill me or steal from me - is the new shard a place for me?  Is it consensual PvP and can I play without being harassed?  How does Trammel/Felucca fit into the game?

The traditional concept of “Trammel and Felucca” does not apply to a UO: NL shard. There is only one facet (The World) and within that facet we will support those who like to participate in PvP via an updated Vice vs. Virtue framework while those who would rather participate in PvM content can do so without fear of being killed.  That is not to say there will not be areas that will be free from danger - our primary design goal, however, is to give players the choice of participating or not.

Sorry you wont get sheep.

keven2002

Not sure where I said you sold items in the trade forums... please stick to the facts of what I'm writing thanks. You have however shown multiple screenshots of your museum like house where you have a ton of crap locked down and admitted to collecting every single type of "Treasures of" suit as well as many other things. Again stick with the facts and it's obvious you are just looking to make the Legacy shard something for your own personal gain rather than a new/fresh idea looking to do something different for a change to bring in more people.

Every single server except Siege has Trammel rulesets. End result is over 20 shards that's nobody plays.... that's gotta be because PvP is just too out of control... oh wait.

Herd along lamb chop  

Pawain

Sorry if it offends you if I play a lot and like to deco.  I will try the new shard with no expectations of bringing anything back other than Titles. 

Glad the devs are designing it and not you or Popps.

And I never said I have all. I was not playing when the Doom one was live, and did not save any Kotl armor.

And if you play on LS you would see that I am totally non selfish. I bought a pen from the store and make 40 runebooks for the Black Gate quest and gave them away. Last year I made empty soulbinders and gave those away in packs of 10 using a Steward. For Khaldun I gave away free Infused Tasty treats and Infused scrappers.  Right now the Steward has free Black gate Runebooks.

Cookie

keven2002 said:

Herd along lamb chop  

Loving your posts, and agreeing.

I personally, cannot be bothered to waste anymore time here, I am really enjoying ingame atm, we are pvping non-stop, and very active in all game aspects. I just don't have time to be here.

You are correct, it is people attitudes that get them killed, or make them less successful. I used to be a miner, and have no issues at all. I never felt like a victim, I enjoyed the thought process, and going under the radar etc.

Bilbo

keven2002 said:

Bilbo said:

keven2002 said:

Pawain said:

If the 50/50 were true:

Every once in a while PvP appears in Chat on LS.  They have a lot of fun.  But, I never see anyone that is PvMing leave and go get their PvP toons.  I do see the PvP alts doing PvM.

If there was Non Con PvP you would see more PvM ppl getting their PvP toons if they had them. That's how it went when I played pre AOS... get PK'ed on my miner or tamer; log and go back to right with mage or warrior. As it stands now when I'm PvMing in candy land there is no need to get my PvP char (although he's likely very dusty these days).

LMAO at how little you know about Pre-Tram and PKs.  AoS (2003) was not the downfall of PKs It was UOR (2000) that created Tram and if as a Miner or what ever type playstyle other than PvP/Champ Spawn you were doing outside of Tram ruleset was your own fault.  As far as your statement of Non-Con forcing PvMers getting PvPer toons out is total BS and the reason UOR came out was to prevent UO from dying, we were closing our accounts and leaving UO and EA saw the writting on the wall and told OSI to fix is NOW so UOR was released and Fel died.

If you carefully read what I wrote I said pre-AOS which is true. Sorry I didn't give you the exact release date. But I'm sure you know what I meant. That said, you obviously are the self proclaimed UO Historian and know everything that is UO but are obviously a Trammy (which is confirmed by you saying "we" were closing our accounts). My statement is 100% true because I'm talking from experience which I was PK'ed while on my tamer or Miner and then grabbing my PvPer (as I said) so take stop getting get bent out of shape little guy; it will all be ok.. things still exist just because they don't happen to you. The Devs already said you won't have to be afraid of the big bad man lurking in Fel ready to kill you because you seem to like to run your mouth when there aren't consequences.

PS. This is the EXACT reason we need to have Non-Con PvP because I'd love for you to act like that if I ran across you in the game. You would be worth a murder count... and probably even a rez kill.

Carry on Trammy.   

There is a HUGE difference between UOR and AoS proving how little you know about UO.  It is your attitude that almost destroyed UO to begin with and the very reason EA made UO create Tram and for your info I stopped PvP because of AoS (Age of Shit)

Mariah

This conversation is getting far too personal, and given that the devs have already stated their stance on it in the Legacy shard FAQ my assessment is that it is time to end it.