Treasures of Deceit

keven2002

MissE said:

 @ keven2002 totally disagree with your comments on stealth.  For a start it is not just stealth but also invis, insta reveals on that as well.  So what you are saying is any mage/tamer/caster who uses invis is the 'wrong type of char' as well as any character with stealth.  Lets not talk about bards, my bard friend was not impressed at all.  Frankly if I invest 200 points in a skill I think it should work as intended.  I am over getting my templates nerfed due to cheaters, if you are ok with it fine, I am not.  I have stealth on nearly ALL of my characters for a reason.  My tamers have it, so does my mystic mage weavers, as well as my archers.  So basically other than my sampire, the rest are in your view the wrong type of char?  Not all stealthers are build to steal from chests in fact I have NEVER stolen from chests as that is a total waste of time.  When you devote 200 points on a template to do ONE thing then that thing should 'work' 90% of the time  not 1%.   

@MissE - I wasn't really directing my comment of wasting 200 points (hiding/stealth) towards you and it was rather a generic statement taking into consideration Julia was saying about getting drops and how using those skills in the context of actually getting drops were wasted skills in doing so. How you turned that into some over the top rant and twisting what I said into "mages/tamer/caster is the wrong template" and me "being fine with templates getting nerfed" is a bit extreme. 

I stand by what I originally said, some builds are more efficient than others for particular things. If you want to blow 200 points (almost 30% of your available points) on hiding/stealth on every single character you have that is totally up to you but that's not efficient for getting drops. You act like your templates are being nerfed by Devs but I think you are nerfing your own production by using 200 points for hiding/stealth on every single template. Based on your rant alone I can tell what type of player you are. It sounds like you think that every single template YOU have (ie hiding/stealth) should be able to do every single thing in the game without any issues.

What is the ultimate thought process of having hiding/stealth on a fighting character for Deceit? Do you think it increases your chances of survival? If so, there are many other efficient ways of surviving and doing just fine... like using music/peace on your tamer instead of hiding/stealth. 

There is no need to complain about your templates being nerfed when they aren't even the most efficient character to begin with. I've had no major issues doing the "treasure of" events (using multiple template...none have hiding/stealth though lol) and I've seen many others doing the event (various templates) also do just fine. In this case it seems to me like there is more of an issue with the player rather than the game.

Pawain

Mariah said:

MissE said:

Pawain said:

Well, WoD does little damage to Paragons.  No Life Leech from them.  Have to adjust to the  Gasp*** NEW CONTENT. Give feedback and things may change.

The paragons also don't have any different gold than the normal mobs. Para's were supposed to have at least 2 if not 3 times the loot of a regular mob.  Haven't had a chest of the 'new' types ie ram and skel armor, just the older ones lichlords, poison eles, could just be the bad luck rng be interested to know if they drop chests.

Ossein ram and spectral armor do not have maps in their loot table ( https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/treasure-maps/ ) therefore they will not drop paragon chests.

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/ilshenar-paragon-creatures/

When I mentioned paragon chests, I thought these mobs would be reskinned like in EM events, but they are not.  They just use the normal mobs. Also the Paragon Balron at chaos has more gold than the the normal one, and it does have better loot.

If they are going to make paragon mobs why not let them have more gold and better loot than the normal ones.  I quit opening corpses after a few minutes.

CovenantX said:

@ Kyronix  Possible bug: In the "treasure's Of" dungeon, The skill Provocation does nothing, you provoke mobs to fight, and they ignore each other, Peacemaking & Discordance seem to work as they should.

There also seems to be a somewhat rare chance of receiving a random magic item that's cursed appear in your pack instead of a 'Treasures Of Item".

Did you pick up a paragon chest and die?  The cursed items come out of those.

MissE

@keven2002 You basically said that any char with hide/stealth is obviously the wrong char for this type of event.  Even though I was refering to not only hide/stealth but also invising.   What is wrong is that the devs seem to have negated the skill use in this dungeon for no other reason than to pander to the 'oh they hide so it isn't fair' group who seem to think anyone with hide/stealth is an afk farmer.  However it doesn't ONLY apply to hide/stealth it also applies to invis and given the other half of templates in this game are casters who use invis to break target and that has also been nerfed (as Julia says can't even get off an invis to break target) I experienced trying to cast invis 14 times in a row while being attacked by a paragon and failed to get it off. 

So yeah I gave up on using any of my main casters/tamer templates and took in the sampire as it seems that is the ONLY type of char really worth going in with due to the above.

Seriously mate, I know different builds are for dif things.  NONE of my chars rely on hide stealth to stand alone, each of them have skills for fighting that have zero relationship to the hide/stealth skill.  However the fact I have put points to those means they should work.  If the devs wanna change it so they don't then come clean and SAY SO.  Don't just nerf it in the background.

My mystic mage has mystic, weaving, magery, ei, focus as well as hide stealth. 

My tamers have tame vet lore magery weaving as well as hide stealth.

My archers have archery tactics bushido chiv anat heal as well as hide stealth.

The templates are stand alone within their genre and I function very, very well.  I have zero problem fighting anything and pick the relevant character for the relevant encounter. The hide/steath are ancillary skills to the main build, just like chiv or bushido is ancillary to a sampire or archer.  The only difference is the devs don't nerf those skills as they seem to be doing for hide stealth.  As for drops, until you have played chars like I do don't comment on my ability to get drops. I reckon I would be in top 'drop' earners at pretty much every event that I go to.   I think the 500 odd books I got at that last invasion show that and the points I put to hide and stealth are well worth the benefit on each of those chars, unless the devs are gonna NERF the skill.  

I invest points to hide stealth as they make the character so much more useful everywhere, or did until such time as this new 'nerf' everything attitude came into effect. 

 However, I want to know if the devs are gonna continue to nerf the use of the skill and if you can't use it in a dungeon, then what is the point of them having it and are they gonna continue to make every encounter impossible to use those skills. If so then whether I want to change the whole way I play or just call it quits is the thing I am considering.

Anyways I am out of this convo, it is not just me who is not happy over the insta reveal that is happening, a LOT of those I have spoken to are of the same opinion. 

Seth

I don't see any reason to block hiding or stealth for the event. Its only a way to survive, not an exploit or trick to dupe items etc. 

When you create functions and abilities, pls allow us to use them. Use more creative methods to challenge such abilities, not nerf them. Or else might as well remove the skills from the game.

Pawain

After playing in Deceit many hours, I'm doing well with my Tamer and dog.  Has Magery and weaving.  WoD is useless but Thunderstorm kills the masses.  I see archers and other builds give it a try.  A few have brought in their melee toons.  

Since this is a group event,  I think it is done well.  Have to try out the dozens of other locations they can use.

Seth

Pawain said:

After playing in Deceit many hours, I'm doing well with my Tamer and dog.  Has Magery and weaving.  WoD is useless but Thunderstorm kills the masses.  I see archers and other builds give it a try.  A few have brought in their melee toons.  

Since this is a group event,  I think it is done well.  Have to try out the dozens of other locations they can use.

@Pawain +10 Best Tester

keven2002

@MissE - Once again, over the top with another very defensive response which just shows me thersome over compensation. I'm not going to argue with you about your builds, you can play the game the way you like (just don't complain when it doesn't work the same in every instance) but it's a fact that hiding/stealth actually negate the chance at drops for events (ie tamers hiding while farming ToT decreases versus not being hidden). 

I've had no real issues casting invis to get out of a jam, yes you will be auto-revealed but for the most part you will not be auto-targeted so you can run a few more screens and invis again. Like I said before, unless there will be stealables to stealth around the dungeons I don't see the auto reveal while stealthing as being a major issue because those 2 skills are ancillary (as you said) and can be swapped out.  

MissE

LOL @keven2002 You sure are funny mate, you call me over defensive when I just challenged/disagreed with what you said, seems to me you are the one being over defensive, but yeah, whatever.  You could of left if after I said I didn't agree with you but you didn't, just wanted to insist that your view of the world was right. 

All I want is a comment from the devs as to whether or not they have put in some code to insta reveal stealthers and if they are gonna continue with this practice if they have or whether it is some bug with the paragons that are insta revealing.  Don't need to be told  by YOU that I should change what I am doing or what char I should use, I already switched to a char that didn't use hide/stealth before I even posted.

Seth

 Yeah, not trying to side anyone in particular but I am more agreeable with @MissE to ask if they intentionally put codes that break invis or stealth. 

However, i just remembered that monsters with high detect hidden can reveal if you stealth within like 4 squares. This is working as intended and seemed to be on higher end monsters. So I believe paragon has high detect hidden.

Pawain

I have a feeling that the revealing is staying.  Too many complaints about players getting items unattended.  Some of those were from @MissE if I recall correctly.

They are trying to fix what you asked for.

IMO a place like Deceit would not have afk issues.  If you sit in 1 spot you don't get a lot of spawn.  Have to keep moving to have a high kill rate.

popps

MissE said:

LOL @ keven2002 You sure are funny mate, you call me over defensive when I just challenged/disagreed with what you said, seems to me you are the one being over defensive, but yeah, whatever.  You could of left if after I said I didn't agree with you but you didn't, just wanted to insist that your view of the world was right. 

All I want is a comment from the devs as to whether or not they have put in some code to insta reveal stealthers and if they are gonna continue with this practice if they have or whether it is some bug with the paragons that are insta revealing.  Don't need to be told  by YOU that I should change what I am doing or what char I should use, I already switched to a char that didn't use hide/stealth before I even posted.

All I want is a comment from the devs as to whether or not they have put in some code to insta reveal stealthers and if they are gonna continue with this practice if they have or whether it is some bug with the paragons that are insta revealing. 

Absolutely !

@Kyronix , @Bleak , is this some nasty unwanted "side effect" to be corrected or do you really want to make the investment of so many skill points into Hiding and Stealthing be rendered totally useless ?

Also, if hiding and stealthing will be impossible with this new content, this means, one needs to necessarily conclude, that there will be no Hidden Chests nor stealables to be able to play with ?

Is this the type of content that we are to be getting or is the "insta-reveal" just some bug and unintended occurrance which will get fixed ?

Thanks !

P.S. After re-reading these 3 Posts from @Kyronix in this Thread https://forum.uo.com/discussion/6795/a-quick-question-for-the-powers-that-be-regarding-a-game-mechanic, I am starting to worry that the current insta-revealing "might" be intended..... which, if it was true, would be, at least to my opinion, not fair towards those players who legittimately play, at the keyboard, attended (NOT AFK...) a hider-stealther.....

Post  # 1 

Kyronix said:

Yes.

Post # 2

Kyronix said:

Not going to get into the specifics of how it works, sorry.

And, most notably, Post # 3

Kyronix said:

@ Poo - yes it is a thing, it's something we are aware of and look to further improve in the coming implementation of our Dynamic Treasures of... system that's coming in Publish 109.

Now, if the current insta-revealing that is being seen with the New content is that "further improvement", Mr. @Kyronix , my personal view is that this improvement might have been taken too far, to the point that a legittimate gameplay style, that of the Hider-Stealther, has been totally rendered USELESS with this new content.

I can understand the goal and desire to disrupt AFK (Away From Keyboard) gameplay behaviour, but whatever code you may put in, to my opinion, should NEVER EVER come at the expense of LEGITTIMATE gameplay behaviour from players who actually ARE at their keyboard, playing the game actively.

And, since Hiding and Stealthing DO ARE legittimate skills in the game, and lots of players do INVEST points in those skills (even up to 220 skill points out of 720 possible....almost 1/3 of the possible points !!!) I personally think that it is NOT RIGHT to kill a whole lot of players' skill points investment in those 2 skills and a legittimate gameplay style....

Please, PLEASE, do consider something ELSE to challenge AFK players but DO NOT destroy legittimate players' gameplay who use legittimate skills, Hiding and Stealthing, as their normal and preferred playing style.

Or do these players need to stop playing Ultima Online althougether because their playing style of choice, their preferred one, a legittimate one since they are AT the keyboard and not AFK, mind you, is being nerfed to the point that they can no longer play ?

Thank you SO much.

popps

Pawain said:

I have a feeling that the revealing is staying.  Too many complaints about players getting items unattended.  Some of those were from @ MissE if I recall correctly.

They are trying to fix what you asked for.

IMO a place like Deceit would not have afk issues.  If you sit in 1 spot you don't get a lot of spawn.  Have to keep moving to have a high kill rate.

Too many complaints about players getting items unattended. 

How so, if I may ask, if SINCE PUBLISH 47 made it so that :  

https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/42835/#Comment_42835

''Update 1 Publish 47
On October 3, 2007, the following was published:

• You will get less credit towards the new dungeon drops if you are hidden when the monster you are fighting dies.''

There is already something in the game, there was no need, to my opinion, to screw up genuine players' gameplay who ACTIVELY use Hiding and Stealthing and invest lots of skill points into it !!

Trismegistos

Have you ever been @ Fan dancer dojo?

Then you understand what afk farming is.

Another option would been that pet healing or pat damage against paragons could lowered.

BTW. A paragon poison elli or paragon RAM cannot be fighted without active healing. So reveal is not nessesary.

After testing on Europa I found that my archer is a good option for thoose fightings. Together with another Player I can crawl through deceit.

For the sampire option of non life leech against paragons the answer "you want it harder" doesn't fit in a fantasy role play game.

That is a typical developer answer. I know myself howto answer those trouble.

The current treasures....

Are shard bound collectables nothing else.

I use this runs for my own User experience. Thanks for giving a chance to european Players.

keven2002

MissE said:

All I can say is I am sick of getting revealed the instant I cast invis or hide.  I was trying to shake a para lich lord and every single time I cast invis it would insta reveal me, also getting revealed when I don't have line of sight to the mobs, not just paragons.  If this sort of thing is gonna continue I think I won't.   I invest 200 points of skill to be able to do one thing, stealth to my body 

@MissE - Play your game how you want bub. I'm not telling you are doing anything wrong as there is no wrong way to play UO. There are more effective ways to do things but often times people like YOU would rather post rants on the forums rather than figure out how to be more effective. What you said is clear as day that you are whining about they setup rather simply "asking the Devs if it will continue"

As I said before, a skilled player won't have much issue with the reveal. Also I said before, if they keep the reveal the way it is you can easily swap those skills off for other skills that will keep you alive better but feel free to keep using the same template OR even better just don't do the events (more drops for me and I'll sell them to you).

Norry

Yeah, instead of lowering drop rates, why not force the skill to be used. If there is a character hidden, monsters will slowly stop spawning in that section, but will spawn 20 to 40 tiles further away.

Its a temp spawn change, but woukd force players to move. Afk scripters coukd find themselves in a heap of trouble, but an attended player coukd see a large grouoing and jet.

Seth

Trismegistos said:

Have you ever been @ Fan dancer dojo?

Then you understand what afk farming is. 

...

For the sampire option of non life leech against paragons the answer "you want it harder" doesn't fit in a fantasy role play game.

That is a typical developer answer. I know myself howto answer those trouble.

Good games are those that give you all the powerful moves, but yet they can still  design bosses that can still challenge you. 

By using tainted life, its not "hard" to use sampire, but it cannot be used at all. It was designed to rule out a specific warrior template. Why not just make them to blood oath more often? At can still the template but with caution. 

Also bosses should not be one-hit kill. Its boring. Make them put up shields, maybe discord us, combine all the worse curses, bleeding etc, make us heal and run. 

No, they teleport you in and kill in 1 strike.

0 creativity.

MissE

Trismegistos said:

Have you ever been @ Fan dancer dojo?

Then you understand what afk farming is.

Thing is the afk farmers are not necessarily stealthers, sure a lot of the afk tamers maybe or perhaps they just have hide not stealth,  but the dude we had in doom afk farming 24/7 for years was perfectly visible, just had a script that alerted them to gm's appearing.  Fact they got stuck rubberbanding off the odd chest in their way for 2 hrs before they noticed and rewrote the script to pick up any chests was kinda a giveaway.  Fact we filmed him playing for 15 hours straight with the same time/recall/return pattern was also a give away.  Another afk multiboxer with 20+ necros in Blackthorns was also visible, all 20 odd of em. The sampires we had on auto attack just one hit killing orcs afk in the wasteland is another example.  Not to mention the visible resource farmers mining and lumberjacking 24/7 as well.  People in this game are gonna cheat, I am just sick of legitamate players being penalized in their gameplay to counter it.   Why are the multiboxing necros, the afk sampires/archers, the resource scripters ok yet someone who uses hide/stealth to get around not?  The gms can see exactly who is there hidden or not so anyone afk farming can be challenged without them nerfing the skill.  Anyone can just report a 'pet' unattended by an afk farmer to a gm by just giving the location. 

If the devs said ok in all dungeons you won't be able to cast any chivalry spells as they are evil places that wont allow the noble paladin to operate as they need the sun people would chuck a mental at having the whole skill nuked.  Same goes for stealthers, insta reveal every single time you try to hide and move is no different.   I can play my characters just fine without it as they are all stand alone but having invested skill points you really should be able to use them.

Trismegistos

Norry said:

Yeah, instead of lowering drop rates, why not force the skill to be used. If there is a character hidden, monsters will slowly stop spawning in that section, but will spawn 20 to 40 tiles further away.

Its a temp spawn change, but woukd force players to move. Afk scripters coukd find themselves in a heap of trouble, but an attended player coukd see a large grouoing and jet.

New

 template, the stealth Herder.

Sounds nice, but It  will be abused 5 minutes after Activating. Ej stealth Chars in all rooms excluding the room were the gang works.

Pawain

@popps when you are unattended from server up to server down, the reduced drop rate is insignificant.

That feature goes back years. People have recently complained about unattended players in dungeons.

Petra_Fyde

Trismegistos said:

Norry said:

Yeah, instead of lowering drop rates, why not force the skill to be used. If there is a character hidden, monsters will slowly stop spawning in that section, but will spawn 20 to 40 tiles further away.

Its a temp spawn change, but woukd force players to move. Afk scripters coukd find themselves in a heap of trouble, but an attended player coukd see a large grouoing and jet.

New

 template, the stealth Herder.

Sounds nice, but It  will be abused 5 minutes after Activating. Ej stealth Chars in all rooms excluding the room were the gang works.

Nothing new about a stealth herder, I've had one for years. Wouldn't be any good for your idea though, you can only herd creatures that can be tamed. 

Norry

Trismegistos said:

Norry said:

Yeah, instead of lowering drop rates, why not force the skill to be used. If there is a character hidden, monsters will slowly stop spawning in that section, but will spawn 20 to 40 tiles further away.

Its a temp spawn change, but woukd force players to move. Afk scripters coukd find themselves in a heap of trouble, but an attended player coukd see a large grouoing and jet.

New

 template, the stealth Herder.

Sounds nice, but It  will be abused 5 minutes after Activating. Ej stealth Chars in all rooms excluding the room were the gang works.

Keep the rando teleport that blackthornes has with what i posted, and good to go.

keven2002

 @Kyronix - is this event supposed to be in Fel too? On LS, I went to the Fel side to test the spawn and the reward NPC is out front but none of the monsters inside were "treasures of" label and I went through the entire first and second floor killing every single monster in an effort to "clear" them out. This was yesterday too (not day 1).

Anyone else notice if the Fel side works on other shards??

Cinderella

keven2002 said:

I've had no real issues casting invis to get out of a jam, yes you will be auto-revealed but for the most part you will not be auto-targeted so you can run a few more screens and invis again.

Have you tested this at all?
As soon as someone invis, you are instantly revealed and auto-targeted.
I have lost track of how many times I have tried.
There is a wide area around each of these paragons that reveals all those hidden.
I invised myself today, because I saw a paragon elemental go down the center path towards the entrance. I was in the second room on the right, from the entrance, past the circle on the floor.
And I was instantly revealed as soon as it past the room.

Usually I play a tamer and will cast invis, just so my pet can tank.
(I don't stay hidden, after my pet starts being hit)

But on Lake Superior, I don't have a bonded pet and my skill isn't high enough yet.
So I have to rely on Magery.
And I worked with others, to help heal their pets, heal them, and myself.

Just today, when I was auto-targeted, the only thing i could do was teleport away.
And it followed me again, but luckily it was flatlined and died a hair breaths away.
(those paragon Ossein Rams sure do pack a punch!!)

Pawain

By the time I hit invis and move my finger to take the screen shot I get revealed. 
Then I am aggroed again within milliseconds.



I cant see why this is an argument.  Pretty easy to see.

I have learned that Etheral Voyage works great if you start it away from the mobs.

Cinderella

Correction of my above post (i was tired when i posted)

I was in the 3rd room on the right, between the axe and stone table.
Isn't that a lil far, for the elementals to be revealing someone?

Cinderella

I really enjoyed doing the Treasures event on LS.
Even though my skill wasn't that high, I was able to get what I set out to get, the spellbook.
And I helped a couple of other people get theres too.

I saw tamers, sampires, archers, and mages working together.
And when you work together, you can quickly take down these paragons.

Pawain

YyyCinderella said:

I really enjoyed doing the Treasures event on LS.
Even though my skill wasn't that high, I was able to get what I set out to get, the spellbook.
And I helped a couple of other people get theres too.

I saw tamers, sampires, archers, and mages working together.
And when you work together, you can quickly take down these paragons.

We enjoyed having you. Come back Saturday for a dungeon crawl. And you never tried on the slipper Allen has.

keven2002

@Kyronix - Overall I enjoyed the week of hunting Deceit. I consider myself pretty decent at most content but even I found it a bit challenging at time and racked up a few death robes. Well done.

That said, could you speak to the following things from this second soft launch that people have brought up?

1. Paragons auto-aggro targeting people through walls
2. The Fel side of this event didn't appear to be turned on so wondering if that was by design or not (Origin had Fel side activated for the first soft launch)?
3. As the week went on it seemed like more and more spawn was getting stuck in places we couldn't reach like under steps, behind walls, etc. Is there a plan to address this?
4. Auto reveal. Is there any plan to change the way it is working or should we expect for these areas to work as they did this week?
5. All things Paragons. Should all paragons be expected to have chests or only those with T-maps in their loot table (ie lich lords paragons would have chests but Ossein rams would not)? Should Paragons actually follow the paragon ruleset where they give more / better loot than the non-paragon version? Will Paragons give more "treasures of..." points towards a drop since some of them (like Rams / Lich Lords / Poison Eles) take quite a bit longer to kill?

To all else, if I've missed any major ones please add them so Kyronix can comment.

Thanks

CovenantX

the fel side became active (on LS at least), I'm assuming shortly after you posted @keven2002

keven2002 said:

 @ Kyronix - is this event supposed to be in Fel too? On LS, I went to the Fel side to test the spawn and the reward NPC is out front but none of the monsters inside were "treasures of" label and I went through the entire first and second floor killing every single monster in an effort to "clear" them out. This was yesterday too (not day 1).

Hosteen

CovenantX said:

the fel side became active (on LS at least), I'm assuming shortly after you posted @ keven2002

keven2002 said:

 @ Kyronix - is this event supposed to be in Fel too? On LS, I went to the Fel side to test the spawn and the reward NPC is out front but none of the monsters inside were "treasures of" label and I went through the entire first and second floor killing every single monster in an effort to "clear" them out. This was yesterday too (not day 1).

The pre-treasures spawn on the fel side wasn't killed off till late in the event. So it looked like it wasn't spawning the "treasures of" mobs