Rogues Skills, why there are no masteries for them ?

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  • Stinky_PeteStinky_Pete Posts: 61
    edited October 2019
    Mariah said:
    I believe this thread was meant to discuss the rogue skill set as used in pvm. Role playing a rogue is a totally different, and highly confrontational, aspect of the game that is better discussed elsewhere.

    It is the same thing. The only difference is the player. The templates are the same. It would be hard to mess with one without messing with the other. Sure, add more dungeon stealables, I don't care. Start adding masteries and you are messing with what I do and I have a problem with that. 

    I guess what I'm trying to say is a PvM thief is just a thief that chooses to not play all of the content available to them. 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,671
    There are a lot of things I don't notice. If I noticed you I would have called you a NOOB.  Nella has a constant Stink.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 878
    edited October 2019

     You rogue characters are hardcore even for a pure Feluccan. :o

    I love playing my rogue, I think they are well balanced in terms of playability, I don't think they need any masteries as it is likely it would mess them up more than give them anything,

    I use my rogue a little in PvP, and a lot for PvM rogueing, find it very relaxing and fun, I actually enjoy dungeon chests etc. I have never actually had the stomach to steal off other players in a real sense, though I'm happy to go to war with them, kill them and fully loot them! But that is just down to my shard domination competitive style character...

    I certainly get when players say this is a class just for fun.

    Due to the way I play mine, I do also get those who say the rogue could use a little more in PvM. I do believe the gold from them is sort of ok, Ararat hidden chests, and Kotl hidden chests have ok loot, no problems with them. Exodus, I quite frankly find too hard to do, too many mobs, cannot do the content. The armour/weapon loot in dungeon chests could maybe use a boost, it is still very 2000's era. I did really enjoy the Khaldun hidden chests, and hunting for the artifacts there, and I liked the artifacts artwork and concept a lot. What did in fact upset me there, was the absolute impossibility of it - I recall physically burning myself out in Khaldun and getting nothing at all, whilst players who had put in 3x less effort than me, managed to get stuff - basically, I really hate the RNG in this game, always have, because I never ever seem to get stuff. It's not like I don't play the content, I really do, I put so much effort in - anyway, enough of that. So I'm going to back Popps up a bit here, in that maybe a PvM rogue, could use a little boost in content.


    Going to add an edit for just a couple of small ideas for loot. I often think I'd like to see a T-Map as a rare reward in a dungeon chest. The Kotl city flavour rewards are fine, and I think you get a lot of small gems and gold. Exodus, I think it's Exodus keys which is clever, and some imbuing regs which is good. Ararat I believe is larger gems which is fine. I enjoyed the Khaldun Event loot, which was basically the peerless ingredients for Scrappers Compendium which are an impossibility to get hold of in quantities required to make Scrappers, so that concept was welcomed. So I think things I'd potentially like to see, would be more ingredients etc. I think if you gave PvM rogues a way to collect event keys, would be cool, just another way to play for collecting event keys.

    One thing I've often wanted for Rogues - is like a secret Easter Egg style hide and seek. Just anywhere on the map {Felucca}, have a secret room, or passage, or puzzle trapped room, and put something unique in it, for say just a month. Do that once a month, change location. Let the players know something is out there, leave it for a small period, and see what happens - Maybe only have 1 reward per Server, then shut it down. Make the entire Rogue base go hunting - like Indiana Jones, or Laura Croft.



  • TyrathTyrath Posts: 301
    Cookie said:
    One thing I've often wanted for Rogues - is like a secret Easter Egg style hide and seek. Just anywhere on the map {Felucca}, have a secret room, or passage, or puzzle trapped room, and put something unique in it, for say just a month. Do that once a month, change location. Let the players know something is out there, leave it for a small period, and see what happens - Maybe only have 1 reward per Server, then shut it down. Make the entire Rogue base go hunting - like Indiana Jones, or Laura Croft.




     Now that is a interesting concept that would be fun.
  • How bout we fix the masteries we have first before adding more tires onto the fire.
  • KirthagKirthag Posts: 531
    popps said:
    Kirthag said:

    Why for @ popps you say Rogues are having less to do?!?!?!? Do you even HAVE a Rogue character? 

    it is not just me saying that ......

    https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/31835/#Comment_31835
    Re: Herbs - I'm apprehensive to add these to additional areas of the world.  I understand the concern that the limited spawn of them makes them difficult to acquire, however, I think the dried herbs fall into a unique category.  They've been around for a very, very long time.  They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do.
    Kyronix says ..... "They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do."

    And, as I said, I frankly wholeheartedly and totally agree with him on that.

    I am thinking PvM Rogue, you guys are thinking of PvP Rogue.

    While PvP Rogue might be fine as it is, at least judging from the Rogues posting in this thread, to my viewing, and apparently also that of at least one Developer, the PvM content and playabillity of a Rogue is NOT.
    My rogue is less PVP and more RPVM - if you met/know her, you'd know.

    To be clear, my rogue character is primarily a dungeon crawler - exploring. She will loot the corpses people miss as they are running amock in a dungeon (especially noobs). She sometimes creates blockades to assist young players in dungeons - and all they see is "something" for the briefest moment. My rogue travels the shards, looking for IDOCs, pilfering, and looting what she can to either sell on the mall shard or bring back to Pacific.

    My rogue is also a collector of... uhm.... "fine intelligence" - particularly on and for cross-shard guilds and certain nefarious players - I have 12gigs worth of screenies that can be.. uhm... delivered... if the right questions are asked. She is also a lurker at champs - not to alert friends.. but to thwart others or even to work a spawn herself (which is interesting to do, given her character). 

    And those are just small samples of what XXXXXX does in-game. There is a lot more, but I fear she would lose her place in the society of which she belongs. I won't even whisper her name on the forums lest she loses the trust of so many.

    There is more to being a successful rogue character than playing dev-provided content. Rogues have a certain skill set that allows them to go places, see events, and do things that border on EM or even GM stature. It is all game mechanics... if a person REALLY learns how to play a rogue.

    And it is not the fault of the rogue-class that so many others have fallen to their wily ways. There are game mechanics to prevent a rogue from doing certain things - it seems the greater population has forgotten them.

    Their loss.

    And not all rogues are bad - "bad" depends on which side of a story a person is on. 

    The point is, long time rogues (many of them dropping in here) have very developed toons and partake of activities daily for fun-filled hours on end - it is just not in the awareness of the general population; it is preferred as such. If we were, then what's the sense of being a rogue?!? The core of the class is secrecy.... 


  • LilyGraceLilyGrace Posts: 298
    If some of you here want to infer that players of rogues, looking for new dev-created content, lack imagination, that's fine. If you want to infer a player hasn't REALLY learned to play a rogue because they're not involved in spying on other guilds, or stealthing around an IDOC (Like, who hasn't?), that's okay I guess. 

    If you want to claim others are not really ballsy rogues because they haven't infiltrated a guild in order to steal from them later, yeah ok. Or if you're of a mind that you can't be a truly edgy rogue if you're not sneaking into public houses (In Trammel where you can't be attacked), trying to catch someone moving a crate, that's fine too. But frankly, I think it's all BS and it comes off as snobbery.

    The only thing suggested in this thread that would impact playstyles or builds for you ancient, wise, edgy and well played rogues would be if the OP's suggestion, that Masteries be added for rogue skills, actually came to pass. That's unlikely. So why some of you are compelled to school and belittle other players of rogues, whose styles differ from your own, is baffling to me.

    Let's be clear, none of us takes a single step in this game without taking part in dev-created content. Whether you're busy getting other players to trust you so you can steal from them, or you're fancying yourself the best ever role-played rogue with almost GM-like powers, you're working within the confines of what game developers have created for you. Part of what makes dev-created content great is a sharing of ideas between players and game developers. So why are some of you discouraging other players from contributing their ideas, prattling on with your self proclaimed 1337ness?  
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 637
    LilyGrace said:
    So why are some of you discouraging other players from contributing their ideas, prattling on with your self proclaimed 1337ness?  

    Because past has shown when asked for "love" we get complete overhauls that are the exact opposite of these player idea conversations. The outcome can go either way but being creatures of habit in a 22 year old game, change isn't always for the better. A perfect example is the recent negative feedback from t-maps. A good change was the taming revamp.

    If you read the posts closely you'll see the true intention was a possible revamp with the thought of revenue comparable to a samp without using the template to it's full potential against other players.

    Could there be more to do? Yes! Should that include redoing the whole system? NO!


  • poppspopps Posts: 2,384
    Kirthag said:
    popps said:
    Kirthag said:

    Why for @ popps you say Rogues are having less to do?!?!?!? Do you even HAVE a Rogue character? 

    it is not just me saying that ......

    https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/31835/#Comment_31835
    Re: Herbs - I'm apprehensive to add these to additional areas of the world.  I understand the concern that the limited spawn of them makes them difficult to acquire, however, I think the dried herbs fall into a unique category.  They've been around for a very, very long time.  They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do.
    Kyronix says ..... "They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do."

    And, as I said, I frankly wholeheartedly and totally agree with him on that.

    I am thinking PvM Rogue, you guys are thinking of PvP Rogue.

    While PvP Rogue might be fine as it is, at least judging from the Rogues posting in this thread, to my viewing, and apparently also that of at least one Developer, the PvM content and playabillity of a Rogue is NOT.
    My rogue is less PVP and more RPVM - if you met/know her, you'd know.

    To be clear, my rogue character is primarily a dungeon crawler - exploring. She will loot the corpses people miss as they are running amock in a dungeon (especially noobs). She sometimes creates blockades to assist young players in dungeons - and all they see is "something" for the briefest moment. My rogue travels the shards, looking for IDOCs, pilfering, and looting what she can to either sell on the mall shard or bring back to Pacific.

    My rogue is also a collector of... uhm.... "fine intelligence" - particularly on and for cross-shard guilds and certain nefarious players - I have 12gigs worth of screenies that can be.. uhm... delivered... if the right questions are asked. She is also a lurker at champs - not to alert friends.. but to thwart others or even to work a spawn herself (which is interesting to do, given her character). 

    And those are just small samples of what XXXXXX does in-game. There is a lot more, but I fear she would lose her place in the society of which she belongs. I won't even whisper her name on the forums lest she loses the trust of so many.

    There is more to being a successful rogue character than playing dev-provided content. Rogues have a certain skill set that allows them to go places, see events, and do things that border on EM or even GM stature. It is all game mechanics... if a person REALLY learns how to play a rogue.

    And it is not the fault of the rogue-class that so many others have fallen to their wily ways. There are game mechanics to prevent a rogue from doing certain things - it seems the greater population has forgotten them.

    Their loss.

    And not all rogues are bad - "bad" depends on which side of a story a person is on. 

    The point is, long time rogues (many of them dropping in here) have very developed toons and partake of activities daily for fun-filled hours on end - it is just not in the awareness of the general population; it is preferred as such. If we were, then what's the sense of being a rogue?!? The core of the class is secrecy.... 


    No doubt, all you say is very interesting.

    Nonetheless, not all players play the same way and particularly in the way as you describe, many, do go by the content that is Designed to exist for them...... so, I wonder, "if" the Developers were to "enhance" the content for PvM Rogues, at least, would that hurt your particular gameplay ?

    I do not think so.

    You could still enjoy and have your particular gameplay while other players, just playing by the content provided to them by the Developers, will "also" be able to enjoy playing a Rogue character following "their" preferred way of playing.....

    I think we need to well keep in mind one thing, which it is, that not all players play the same game in the same way.... not even the same template or profession.... as I see it, a succesfull game (i.e. one that has a large players' base, IMHO) is one that has a Design that is capable of entertaining and catering different preferences in gameplay in different players, even when playing the same Class character....

    At least, that is the way I see it.
  • KirthagKirthag Posts: 531
    edited October 2019
    popps said:

    ....Design that is capable of entertaining and catering different preferences in gameplay in different players, even when playing the same Class character....

    .... and that is why UO is so very unique.

    There is no "designed" character class in UO. There are skills that make up a class, BUT the game itself is not designed for fixed classes. This is why UO is successful (a game that generates positive revenue with a profit margin) for so long. It is really the ONLY game that allows players to select skills and to customize their base statistics - even after attaining full skill/stat development. Even SotA is a bit more fixed in skill sets - once you choose your base skills, you go along a fixed "tree" - you cannot change it. Only UO allows you to "remember" your past skills via the Soulstone. No other game has that for a single character/toon.

    Today, Players develop (and are encouraged to do so) characters using a general template, but they are not required to do so. That is why UO is awesome. A fixed-rogue-class is useful for... what? Dungeon crawling - about it. In just about every other game in every genre, a "rogue" can snoop, pick locks, find hidden passages, steal from the environment (but don't steal from a player!), disarm traps, and what have you. Most Rogues in UO are a hybrid mix of skills. Some are Mage/Rogue, Fighter/Rogue, Bard/Rogue. Rarely do you actually come across a "pure rogue" in UO.

    That leads to the question, what are the "Rogue Skills"?
    Snooping - core
    Stealing - core
    Hiding - core
    Stealth - core
    Remove Trap - core (morphed to Treasure Hunter)
    Lockpicking - core (morphed to Treasure Hunter)
    Poisoning - with Fencing
    Alchemy - if you don't already have an Inscriptionist/Mage/Alchemist in your roster
    Healing
    Taste ID (old-time use, almost pointless today)
    Forensic ID (old-time use, almost pointless today)
    Begging (more of a subclass of the Rogue... purely for environmental use)
    Ninjitsu (another subclass, the "magical rogue" if you wanna get technical)
    Some combat skill (most of the time Fencing, to use poisoning)

    Then you have your Mage/Rogue (is more mage than rogue), and Bard/Rogue (again, more bard), or Tamer/Rogue (again, more tamer). These Hybrid Classes use some of the core skills mentioned above to augment their activity, but I wouldn't call these Rogues in the classical sense of the term. Subclasses of the "Rogue" use some, but not all, of the skills associated... these would be your Treasure Hunters and Beggars... but even these are primarily Mages, Bards, or Tamers.

    I remember a time when treasure hunting was for the Rogue class in UO. However, the Treasure Hunter has come to be as a class unto itself. When you think about it - THAT IS A ROGUE. They "steal from the environment" in UO's treasure hunting - and that there is a dastardly deed according to game mechanics. I'm sure some Mage, Ranger, Artisan, or Warrior NPC within the realm is forlorn that their map was lost or stolen (by something in the game) and found by someone who dug up their supply, stash, cache, horde, or trove.

    Also, UO is DESIGNED to allow players to "do as they will" within the game's many rulesets - sandbox, remember? No preset course of actions, and limited quest lines. Quests and content can be used to raise skill, but are not the defacto to do such. So many other games use guided-play and must-do strategy (which is an oxymoron if you ask me) for a character to gain in rank/skill. Those games get boring and predictable after a time, a grind-fest.

    I don't think the question is whether the "Rogue Class" need masteries to be more satisfying, or even if the devs need to create more content for the use of the neglected core rogue skills (snooping, stealing, hiding, stealth). The development of direct content for those skills is just a matter of adding more accessible content for everyone's use. Although, there is Felucca...  which is really the place for a Rogue-classed character. After all, as witnessed in this thread, many posters despise the true Rogue Class.

    In writings going back to antiquity, rogue (a term used loosely) is basically someone who is outside of the given society, who is good/bad - depending on who is affected. A rogue performs deeds others wouldn't dare to. To make a rogue more appealing to the masses for gameplay just... ruins the class. Even in D&D, Rogue is a title given to those who use certain skills in dastardly ways - but the main party doesn't really need a person in that capacity. The Bard could easily have a knack for lockpicking, and the mage would find hidden passages. 

    Even by definition, a rogue is unscrupulous... a villain. 


    ~~~

    Perhaps, a more apt request would be to develop a more rogueish cause in the game... but then people are not happy with what that entails, judging from this thread. If a  whole new army of "rogues" were to come into being in UO.... people would not be happy at all.


  • TyrathTyrath Posts: 301
    .
    popps said:
    Nonetheless, not all players play the same way and particularly in the way as you describe, many, do go by the content that is Designed to exist for them...... so, I wonder, "if" the Developers were to "enhance" the content for PvM Rogues, at least, would that hurt your particular gameplay ?

    I do not think so.

      I think you are using the wrong term "Rogue"  the term I am thinking you should be using is *Dungeon Thief*  A rogue is not so much a template as it is a mindset of a character.  Would changes to Dungeon thief content hurt the Rogue play style?  Probably not is if were just limited to adding more useless stuff to steal that would be valuable until the market was saturated with it. 

      You start messing with hiding, stealth, snooping, stealing, lock picking, detect hidden and remove trap.  Yeah there is a high probability that it will kill entire play styles. 

      The bulk of yer original compliant is you can't steal the high end dungeon stealables because the scripters have them locked down.  I have yet to see anything offered that would change that situation.  Other than ONE suggestion that all stealables be located in Fel (Which is a very good suggestion) Where player justice could deal with the "Dungeon Thief" Scripters.  

       What exactly would adding masteries to the thief skills add   to change the current highly scriptable situation?  Another possible solution for the pollyanna candy land everyone gets a participation award player mindset would be to Instance every dungeon and the stealables in them.  That is a bad solution as well though as it would quickly flood the market with the stuff making it just as worthless as it is if you can't obtain it in the first place.

      Masteries while not changing anything that you cry about, I could go with IF BIG IF  at 120 stealing, 120 stealth, 100 snooping, 100 detect, 100  RT , 100 Hiding and a LvL 3 primer For Stealing............. you could steal from other players in Tram.  Since there is insurance and bless there are mechanics in place to prevent everything but cursed items from being stolen.  If someone is foolish enough to sit or walk around without things in their pack being insured they should be able to lose said things :)  And to be fair have the guard whack rules apply and the corpse of the thief lootable by all when the thief gets guard whacked.

      Now coming back to reality......... the only thing that needs fixed is what Max mentioned and that is on Siege. 

      You have at least 6 characters per acct and most have 7, not every template is going to be a big gold maker.  A dungeon thief template will be a decent gold maker as long as they are constantly adding new stuff to steal until the scripters take the new content over.  Changing or messing with the skills just ain't going to make you more competitive with the scripters.  Moving things to Fel or Gasp actually dealing with the scripters and perm banning script accts and the accounts the script accts hand stuff off to would.  Think of scripters as the organized crime of UO because they are :)

      When some of the more notorious RMTs, Game Code Sellers and Script farmers do youtube videos speaking about their great relationships with former and current Origin/EA/BS staff, it is a pretty good indicator of what will NOT happen in game. 
  • LilyGraceLilyGrace Posts: 298
    Tyrath said:
    .

     Probably not is if were just limited to adding more useless stuff to steal . 
     
      Another possible solution for the pollyanna candy land 

      Masteries while not changing anything that you cry about, 
    You can't help yourself can you?

    *polishes an apple and leaves it on Kirthag's desk*  Gee! Thanks, Teach!

    I promised myself I wouldn't spin my wheels in a rogue thread unless devs want to talk about rogues. I'll go back to that thinking and save myself some aggravation. 
  • TyrathTyrath Posts: 301
    LilyGrace said:
    Tyrath said:
    .

     Probably not is if were just limited to adding more useless stuff to steal . 
     
      Another possible solution for the pollyanna candy land 

      Masteries while not changing anything that you cry about, 
    You can't help yourself can you?

    *polishes an apple and leaves it on Kirthag's desk*  Gee! Thanks, Teach!

    I promised myself I wouldn't spin my wheels in a rogue thread unless devs want to talk about rogues. I'll go back to that thinking and save myself some aggravation. 

          Thank You I always appreciate someone who truly appreciates being educated.  I bet Kirthag will enjoy that apple yer giving her as well!  Glad you learned something today :)
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,384
    Tyrath said:
    .

       What exactly would adding masteries to the thief skills add   to change the current highly scriptable situation?  Another possible solution for the pollyanna candy land everyone gets a participation award player mindset would be to Instance every dungeon and the stealables in them.  That is a bad solution as well though as it would quickly flood the market with the stuff making it just as worthless as it is if you can't obtain it in the first place.

      Masteries while not changing anything that you cry about, I could go with IF BIG IF  at 120 stealing, 120 stealth, 100 snooping, 100 detect, 100  RT , 100 Hiding and a LvL 3 primer For Stealing............. you could steal from other players in Tram.  Since there is insurance and bless there are mechanics in place to prevent everything but cursed items from being stolen.  If someone is foolish enough to sit or walk around without things in their pack being insured they should be able to lose said things :)  And to be fair have the guard whack rules apply and the corpse of the thief lootable by all when the thief gets guard whacked.

    Let me make an example..... Exodus Keys....

    There is the Rogue's path to get them, and the Crafter's path (aside from the Warrior's path but that is another story...).

    Now, personally, even with GM and Legendary Rogue skills in all that matters, that is, Detect Hidden, Lockpick, Stealing, Hiding, Stealth, Remove Trap and Snooping (mind you, we are looking at an investment of some 740 points total....), the time it takes to gather the Exodus Keys as compared to a Crafter who simply needs to "press a button" is way longer.....

    Even at 100.0 Remove Trap, it hardly EVER works on the hidden Chests, way too often the Ball of Knowledge reports either "Too Challenging" or "Very Challenging" and the inevitable fail results in the Rogue character poisoned and having to deal, totally unprepared to fight with some 740 skil points already invested in non-combat skills, with the surrounding spawn.....

    Compare this with a Crafter who, in their comfortableness of their Home, can quietly make that Key with no worries.....

    Not to mention that, the keys that the Rogue gathers, come with the well known timer and, if a group is not found to hunt then Exodus, they go "poof" and all the work done to gather them, gets wasted.... the crafter, instead, has the invaluable luxury to make them "on demand", right when they are needed and not worry about the timer.....

    All this to say, that I think the making of the keys from Crafters should have been Designed to be more complex, time consuming and costly because, as it is now, it "hurts" the Rogue's patch and gathering of the keys using that particular gameplay....

    The "competition" from Crafters, simply, to my opinion "kills" the playability of a Rogue character to gather the Exodus keys.... and this, in addition to the fact that the investment of 100.0 skill points in Remove Trap results practically useless since those Traps hardly ever get removed....

    Players usually tend to find what is more convenient to them.... therefore, when the Designers put in direct competition different Templates, like in this case with the Exodus keys, of course that players would soon identify what is "more efficient" to get to that wanted item and use that path rather then another.... and so the Rogue's gameplay suffers...

    That's one example, but others could be made. My point being, as I said, that it is an issue of BALANCE, that is, there should not be too much difference in the profitability of different professions in UO otherwise, what players would do, is inevitably flock towards that one type of Template which is most effective to gather wealth..... and the other Templates would then suffer.

    At least, that is the way i see it.
  • MargeMarge Posts: 501
    Have you seen the ingredients to make exodus keys?! No way would I waste them them crafting keys I can get by killing a mob.

    The keys can be crafted by using Tailoring, Alchemy, Carpentry, Inscription and Blacksmithy. Check each key's page above for the crafting requirements. 20 Small Pieces of Blackrock, 6 Abyssal Cloth, 5 Taint, 5 Crushed Glass, 5 Dark Sapphires, 3 Fire Rubies and 2 Blue Diamonds are needed, together with other regular crafting ingredients, to craft all four keys.

    That is for just one set - need at least two sets to even start the ritual.


  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,738Moderator
    I have watched this thread carefully. The over-simplification of the difficulty in crafting Exodus keys together with refusal to accept input from experienced pvm and pvp players of the template have convinced me that this thread is merely garrulous troll.
This discussion has been closed.