Evasion, splinter and pvp problems

Lynk

Higgs, you went on for days about how evasion was fine, it was parry that was broken.  You were wrong then, you're wrong now.  

Max_Blackoak

PillowPants said:

Why take the creativity out of the game - I’ve come back not too long ago after a looong time away from the game and it’s awesome to see what combinations some players come up with to create effective templates. This would feel like a step backwards in my opinion and not take full advantage of what content there is in this game, the late 90s were great but the games changed, move on.  

[...]

Why are there two clients that are light years apart in functionality? I would not be so one sided and say get rid of EC just because I’ve only ever used CC [...].

On EC vs CC: the late 90s were great but the games (and clients) changed, move on! ;-)

Back to the actual topic:

As I said in my post, on Siege we don't have the bush parry mage problems that prodo has. My suggestion about limiting +skill bonus from the suit was just a thought to resolve the problem without ruining classic PvM builds or other bushido PvP builds that are not as op.

Splintering weapons: I agree they should have never been implemented. I also found it funny that FWW was nerfed and splintering wasn't (apart from the disarm+splinter nerf that came way later). I like the splinter cooldown suggestions above.

Shatter potions: nerf them by making the thrower unable to hide for 10 seconds and forced walk. That will take care of the stealth trolls.

Urge

I do like the evade cap idea and actually like Lynk's idea about leaving it alone if magic is below 70. I think these classes should be rewarded for playing them as intended in the pure form.

I wonder if splinter could be changed? Maybe remove the force walk and add in higher tick damage?

Shatter potions should require the user to be on foot, not in animal form, and unable to hide for a duration.

Not to be rude, but deathstrike is far far far from OP. To cost 320 skill points it's very underpowered if you ask me.

Carll

I have to wonder how connected to the UO pvp game play the devs really are. There are so many things that have gone unaddressed for way too long.

Yes, evasion is an issue. Being able to hit a button and survive a perfect 7 person 2 spell dump with 70% life should not be a thing. I'm not sure what the best solution is but it is something that has been brought up multiple times and has never been addressed.

Shatter pots IMO should not even exist. They are primarily used as a troll tactic and disrupt what would otherwise be fun fights between groups. If the idea is to make players less reliant on consumables, put timers on potions. Don't make it so a small number of troll type players not really participating in PVP can alter fights and make the game less enjoyable for others. 

Splintering combined with focus attack is an issue. When you get slept and swarmed by multiple dexxers who have a 60% splinter proc chance and get kept walking for 10+ seconds straight it creates a feel bad moment in the game. The "nerf" on splintering wasn't really a nerf at all. Bleed was never the issue, it is the walking portion of it. And now that on subsequent splinters you don't get bled you cant even use bandages to heal the splinter to shorten the walking duration portion of it. There should be some sort of immunity to it similar to that of the bone breaker or mortal wound.

Base weapon damage was never meant for the suits/templates that are now available to players today. When the weapons were introduced did the devs ever think that players would be running around on 830 skill point templates with 150 str 210 stam and 150 mana? The reason everyone plays parry characters is because you can get 2 shot killed by a max damage yumi archer or dexxer with an ornate axe swinging at 1.25 seconds hitting for 80-90 damage a pop. I do not believe this was ever intended. The suits have evolved and the weapons were never balanced out to accommodate the amount of stat increase now available to players. 

Jewel/item swapping has become an issue. I know some have posted on this long ago seeing it as a potential issue but it has now become a real issue. With a single button you can adjust the skill increase items on your suit to allow for absurd templates. The primary issue with this is swapping for ninja form. You now only need to fit 35ish real skill ninja into a template to reliably get into animal form by swapping to +ninja skill items when the time is needed. For new or returning players it is already extremely difficult to get back up to speed gear wise for the current meta. A normal jewel set for a decent pvp setup is going to run 300-500 mil. Take into account that a large portion of the pvp community is not running basic pvp setups and instead have high end setups including a 2nd or 3rd set of jewels on each toon to cover whatever skills they need at the time it makes it way too hard for players who haven't been around for years to come back and compete. 

Lastly the target relative issue needs to be addressed some how. I'm not sure how the UO dev team could do this because its outside programs that allow this to be done, but perhaps something can be done as far as wall of stone. Currently there are certain groups whose entire tactic is to chase players around with 6 mages spamming wall of stone 3 tiles in front of whoever they are chasing while their archers go for dismounts. It is very frustrating and creates stale pvp. This forces almost every fight to be held inside guard zone somewhere so this exploit cannot be used. A cool down on casting wall of stone outside of dungeons might be a solution. WOS is very important in dungeons as you need to be able to cast them quickly to set up traps or escapes but it was never intended to be used open field the way it is now being used. 

I know the pvp community is a small portion of the overall UO community but we pay to play this game just like everyone else and a little love on the concerns we bring up would be greatly appreciated. Spend some time observing fights and all of the issues brought up will become apparent. 

Lynk

No one is hitting 80-90 every swing with ornate.  80+ happens 10% of the time and ONLY if you are corpsed and evil omened.  

Average swing is in the 60 range, and that is on a template with no parry, ninja, or weaving (aka squish).  The amount of skill points invested to get there is significantly higher than what it takes for an archer to get to high end.

Benelli

@Kyronix @Bleak can we get some acknowledgement that you guys even have looked at this post as you can see a good chunk of players agree changes are needed. 

Paithan

Urge said:

I do like the evade cap idea and actually like Lynk's idea about leaving it alone if magic is below 70. I think these classes should be rewarded for playing them as intended in the pure form.

I wonder if splinter could be changed? Maybe remove the force walk and add in higher tick damage?

Shatter potions should require the user to be on foot, not in animal form, and unable to hide for a duration.

Not to be rude, but deathstrike is far far far from OP. To cost 320 skill points it's very underpowered if you ask me.

I think the force walk is needed for dexers.  I do NOT think it should be able to be spammed over and over again.  I am thinking a 15 second immunity would be good.

Benelli

I agree with pairs in the suggested change. Make it the same as the mortal timer/disarm timer. 

AtomicBetty

Paithan said:

Urge said:

I do like the evade cap idea and actually like Lynk's idea about leaving it alone if magic is below 70. I think these classes should be rewarded for playing them as intended in the pure form.

I wonder if splinter could be changed? Maybe remove the force walk and add in higher tick damage?

Shatter potions should require the user to be on foot, not in animal form, and unable to hide for a duration.

Not to be rude, but deathstrike is far far far from OP. To cost 320 skill points it's very underpowered if you ask me.

I think the force walk is needed for dexers.  I do NOT think it should be able to be spammed over and over again.  I am thinking a 15 second immunity would be good.

I think splinter should just be removed and force walk be made into a poison that a character can apply to a weapon for another option other then just deadly poison. And the weapon types that would be able to cause a force walk would be more balanced. Sorry but no one should be force walking with bokutos they are strong enough. mage weapon splinters should not be a thing as well.

Urge

I really like AtomicBetty's idea but not with poison. I think it would be a better fit as a special on perhaps a new weapon.

Cetric

Alot of gold has been thrown around on splinter weaps.  I don't think you can change it that drastically but I'd of agreed if that was when it came out.

Urge

Cetric said:

Alot of gold has been thrown around on splinter weaps.  I don't think you can change it that drastically but I'd of agreed if that was when it came out.

But gold has been disposable to gain an edge since pvp became item based. We've all spent countless coin on fotm temps we straight knew were getting nerfed before we made them.

Dukarlo

Urge said:

Cetric said:

Alot of gold has been thrown around on splinter weaps.  I don't think you can change it that drastically but I'd of agreed if that was when it came out.

But gold has been disposable to gain an edge since pvp became item based. We've all spent countless coin on fotm temps we straight knew were getting nerfed before we made them.

This

Blargety

The rampant use of third party programs are the largest issue in PvP right now. Half of all fights aren't even between players. They are between automatically running scripts and graphics altering spells being cast in a manner that break basic game mechanics. Just saying.

LearnMe

Blargety said:

The rampant use of third party programs are the largest issue in PvP right now. Half of all fights aren't even between players. They are between automatically running scripts and graphics altering spells being cast in a manner that break basic game mechanics. Just saying.

Explain this please.  Curious what examples you have to support this.  Target relative is an issue, sure, but even that isn't breaking a mechanic.  

Tjalle

LearnMe said:

Blargety said:

The rampant use of third party programs are the largest issue in PvP right now. Half of all fights aren't even between players. They are between automatically running scripts and graphics altering spells being cast in a manner that break basic game mechanics. Just saying.

Explain this please.  Curious what examples you have to support this.  Target relative is an issue, sure, but even that isn't breaking a mechanic.  

Why does your post sound like he offended illegal programs and you´re here to defend them?
 

LearnMe

Tjalle said:

LearnMe said:

Blargety said:

The rampant use of third party programs are the largest issue in PvP right now. Half of all fights aren't even between players. They are between automatically running scripts and graphics altering spells being cast in a manner that break basic game mechanics. Just saying.

Explain this please.  Curious what examples you have to support this.  Target relative is an issue, sure, but even that isn't breaking a mechanic.  

Why does your post sound like he offended illegal programs and you´re here to defend them?
 

Why does it seem, as per usual, you're here to contribute absolutely nothing constructive to a conversation and be a worthless troll?

I was curious, so I asked.  We've all been here making suggestions that would make pvp more fun, but there will always be the one or two that insist the game is beyond broken because of things that don't even exist.  

I guess it's totally uncalled for to ask people to explain or provide evidence for claims instead of just going off they're vague description of an unknown issue.

ezikel

1100 view i think there are many people who would like to see a pvp fix

Nikard

Skill increase is the root problem, for parry, evasion, the 4 strong meta templates drowning out diversity, reducing skill, reducing fun, in favor of an RNG snooze fest. Do not derail developers with this "fix evasion" nonsense or you will not be happy with what you are left with.

Lynk

Nikard im not sure youre qualified since you dont really PvP.  Explain how skill inc hurts diversity, it provides more options which increases diversity.  The problem is chain splints is OP and the only way to live is to get an evade and hope you break the walk cycle.  So everyone uses their extra skill points to squeeze in evade, but evade is also OP.  Tone down both and youre left with more ways to invest those skill points.

Nikard

Lynk said:

Nikard im not sure youre qualified since you dont really PvP.  Explain how skill inc hurts diversity, it provides more options which increases diversity.  The problem is chain splints is OP and the only way to live is to get an evade and hope you break the walk cycle.  So everyone uses their extra skill points to squeeze in evade, but evade is also OP.  Tone down both and youre left with more ways to invest those skill points.

Made a new post about it, feel free to stop by to be educated.

Urge

Lynk said:

Nikard im not sure youre qualified since you dont really PvP.  Explain how skill inc hurts diversity, it provides more options which increases diversity.  The problem is chain splints is OP and the only way to live is to get an evade and hope you break the walk cycle.  So everyone uses their extra skill points to squeeze in evade, but evade is also OP.  Tone down both and youre left with more ways to invest those skill points.

Just because someone doesn't really pvp anymore doesn't mean they're not qualified to offer opinions.

You're both right. You're right in splinter being op. Nikard is right in that the +skill has created templates that are hurting the game and making pvp bland.

When you have lower skilled players getting an ego because they can piece an unnatural unkillable template together, you have a major problem.  

There is no diversity and weakness when you just add in everything you want into one character. It's almost like playing ABC.

Boom

Cetric has some solid points.  I think that we need diversity in templates in the game with a balance.  

I believe that his points on evasion is spot on and the same with splintering focus attack.  These are all reasonable requests that adds only an upside of different templates being utilized.  I would also like to bring a suggestion that would also create a viable option for creativity that makes this game unique.

I believe we should remove any requirement of tactics To toggle specials and also bring back to the game the ability to toggle specials while casting spells.  This will open up a whole class of possibilities and creativity that really makes you unique with just a small tweak of coding.

thank you for reading.

boom 

Tjalle

LearnMe said:

Tjalle said:

LearnMe said:

Blargety said:

The rampant use of third party programs are the largest issue in PvP right now. Half of all fights aren't even between players. They are between automatically running scripts and graphics altering spells being cast in a manner that break basic game mechanics. Just saying.

Explain this please.  Curious what examples you have to support this.  Target relative is an issue, sure, but even that isn't breaking a mechanic.  

Why does your post sound like he offended illegal programs and you´re here to defend them?
 

Why does it seem, as per usual, you're here to contribute absolutely nothing constructive to a conversation and be a worthless troll?

I was curious, so I asked.  We've all been here making suggestions that would make pvp more fun, but there will always be the one or two that insist the game is beyond broken because of things that don't even exist.  

I guess it's totally uncalled for to ask people to explain or provide evidence for claims instead of just going off they're vague description of an unknown issue.

You were curious so you asked. I was curious so I asked. Guess we´re both worthless trolls then...

From what I can tell, his point was that illegal programs are a big problem in PvP, which they are. But instead of agreeing that those are an issue, or just ignoring his post, you decided to nitpick about mechanics that may or may not exist. And not only that, you did it in a defensive manner. Hence my rhetorical tongue-in-cheek question.

Galluccio

Cetric said:

Evasion needs to go away in PvP or be heavily nerfed such as just being a damage reducer rather than avoiding all damage.  As it sits basically everyone pvping is running evade, it's ridiculous.  It's born out of neccesity from splinter dumps, but it's watering down PvP since everyone is running high defense high offense characters capable of splintering consistently.  Leave it unchanged for pvm damage, I understand it is heavilyu by sampires and that's fine.  Have any changes be reflective of "player damage".

The slow  effect of splinter needs to not be chainable such as adding a long 30s+ immunity, and should not double with focus attack.  (60% splinter is too much) and being held walking in place thru 3, 5, 7 straight splinters in front of a group is unreal.  No wonder everyone has parry right?  It's a constant complaint you hear from users("I wanna play a fun char but everything I make needs bushido parry").  

Shatter pots should have a longer cool down and break less potions

Skill jewel swapping shouldn't be a thing.  Simple fix, have it take 15+seconds for your +skill to apply when you put on +skill items.  It's basically test center out there, go on foot set ninjitsu 900 animal form away.  You shouldn't be able to fit evasion, animal form, and offensive abilities in every character you make.  


I realize this has been posted several times with no changes occuring, but worth a shot id say.  As it sits all of PvP is basicly one group trying to capitalize on the other group with some splinters spamming while everyone runs evade to try to live thru such dumps.  When the vast majority of characters are running something specific you know there is a reason, either it's overpowered, it's forced into neccesity, or both.

There are very simple fixes for large scale problems.  Take a few minutes and consider it in the next pub or something.



Another long term discussion should be a vvv update, or more more specifically, giving the players something to fight over.  People PvP to PvP all day, every day but the fight over goals like champ spawns has been lacking for some time.  Vvv rewards are nothing we strive for today.  Add different mounts besides red and blue horses, identify useful items for town or dungeon control, you know the drill.  There's been great ideas over the years and nothing makes it to the braintrust 

Is there an MMO where people say PvP is balanced? A game which you play.  

The_Higgs_1

Lets remove mage weapon from being used with evade just like UBWS doesn't work.  Make it so you need 100 real skill in a weapon class in order to evade.  Also parry when combined with wrestle or anatomy needs to be nerfed by at least 5%.  Splinter needs a heavy cooldown or just remove it from the game.  

LearnMe

Tjalle said:

You were curious so you asked. I was curious so I asked. Guess we´re both worthless trolls then...

From what I can tell, his point was that illegal programs are a big problem in PvP, which they are. But instead of agreeing that those are an issue, or just ignoring his post, you decided to nitpick about mechanics that may or may not exist. And not only that, you did it in a defensive manner. Hence my rhetorical tongue-in-cheek question.

You're right.  It's crazy for me to ask someone to present something they believe is an issue and ask them to explain why it's an issue.  I concede that target relative is an issue, but I would also like for someone to point out any other capabilities that another client has that enhanced client doesn't.  Otherwise, you end up with players who sincerely believe that people are running around casting flamestrikes uninterrupted at mini heal speeds (have seen that exact thing suggested.)

On the other note, you can reference any thread I've posted in here or on stratics for constructive ideas, reasons WHY I think what I do, and actual game evidence.  Can you link me to any thread where your pvp related post contains an actual suggestion, pics/video evidence, or anything even related to the topic?  I'd be impressed if you had a single one.  

LearnMe

Nikard said:

Skill increase is the root problem, for parry, evasion, the 4 strong meta templates drowning out diversity, reducing skill, reducing fun, in favor of an RNG snooze fest. Do not derail developers with this "fix evasion" nonsense or you will not be happy with what you are left with.

More skill increase = more template diversity.  Quite simple.

Take away skill increase and people are still going to play whatever is the most survivable against a barrage of max swing, max damage dexxers with 30-60 splinter.  So instead of a mystic evade mage, chances are I'll just play a plain evasion mage.  I'd bet most players would too.

If skill increase was the issue, why wouldn't more players be putting all of that skill increase into more offense instead of the VAST majority of templates fitting in evasion and then working their way from there?

Lynk

Are devs considering changes to evasion or chain splints???  A simple acknowledgement would help.

Benelli

Sigh. Got to love having so much feedback almost 2 months ago now. No acknowledgement from anyone about anything changing but don’t worry guys the next patch includes Christmas boxes and more store changes !!! Keep up the great work dev team. Glad I haven’t pvped in two months because it’s the same ole shit that has been overlooked and uncared by the game creators!