Attempt number 2 at describing some problems with animal training

MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
edited May 2019 in General Discussions
I thought I'd make a video to show what is going very wrong with Animal Training UI and some of the wording/ sentence structures that can mislead people. I hope this goes a small way to explain what some of the issues are.


The wording says you can train a total of 3 abilities well, let us say you are counting the 2 special moves as 1 ability, you can't actually also train 1 special ability AND 1 area effect.. it is very confusing wording.
I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

Breaking in the young since 2002


Comments

  • quickbladequickblade Posts: 109
    edited May 2019
    still not sure how come you can add a school of magic when the pet already has 2 special move 1 special ability . The whole thing is still confusing and ive been studying pet training for months now , still confusing...
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    edited May 2019
    deleted
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • poppspopps Posts: 1,583
    edited May 2019
    What is even more worrysome, at least to my viewing, is that, when you added Poisoning, unless I saw it wrong, besides not adding back the 100 points used up to add discordance, instead of deleting discordance (and add back the 100 points used to add it as the one magical school) and put Poisoning in its place, it deleted Healing which, for the Triton, I understand comes as "innate" which it is "free" for this pet...

    I think that the Text should read something like : "Pets can have 1 school of magic to be trained in addition to any they may have as innate.
    In addition to that, they can also be trained a total of a maximum, overall, of 3 more, in a combination of any, among 1 special ability, 2 special moves and 1 area effect."

    At least, that's what I got from the Video understanding how the Triton could be Trained, besides, the innate Healing ability, in Discordance, Repel, Armor Ignore and Cold Wind.


  • PawainPawain Posts: 2,799
    Darn I was hoping this about pet AI and how badly the pet chooses to use their abilities.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    edited May 2019
    It didn’t remove healing no, and it was 500 points for discord that were not refunded  and also after you put poisoning on, you can no longer put discord back on. 


    The thing is, according to some posters on this forum. Everything is fine and it is the player’s fault for not reading enough... I think that attitude really stinks and is unhelpful to new players and the game’s future.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PawainPawain Posts: 2,799
    edited May 2019
    It says this in the Wiki:

    You may only select a total of Three options from 5 possibilities over these four categories:

    • 1 magical ability
    • 1 special ability
    • 2 special moves
    • 1 area effect
    There is some effective wordsmithing here. The 2 special moves count as 1.

    I am not as effective at writing as whoever wrote that.

    Here is what you must consider first.  On a pet like the triton that starts blank and has magic abilities:  Magic abilitiy like chiv, bushido,  discord, etc is always a choice

    A Magic Ability MUST be one of the 3 choices to get all 3 options

    Here are the choices for a blank magical pet. (using maximum choices) You can choose fewer.

    The first 2 fit that model

    Build 1:
    Area
    2 Special Moves
    Magic

    Build 2:
    2 Special Moves
    1 Special Ability
    Magic

    Build 3 is kinda off:
    Area 
    1 special Move
    1 Special Ability
    Magic

    Build 3 comes up with 3 and a Half choices.

    I have no idea how you can explain this in the Wiki with a neat bulleted list.

    You can not choose 
    Area
    2 Special Moves
    1 Special Ability

    Because Magic Ability is always a choice. That would be 4 options.

    Most pets have a built in special so you have to count that also. Some pets have free abilities that count as nothing. Heal is free, Rage is free. Life leech is free.

    A Hiryu has Grasping claw, a Special Ability and Dismount, a special move.
    You can only add one more thing to a Hiryu, an area that makes Build 3 or a Special Move that makes Build 2. Plus a Magic.

    A Cu has Bleed, a Special Move.
    You can add an Area and a Special Move for Build 1. A Special Move and a Special Ability for Build 2 or an Area and a Special Ability for build 3.  Plus a Magic.

    Clear as Mud?

    I hope that is all correct.

    So the Wiki and that page you are showing is clear and correct on all but Build 3. Or they round down and it is 3 choices so Build 3 is also correct.

    To add further confusion, You can change magics but you do not get a refund. Why would you get a refund?  You can not remove any other things from a pet at all*. Much less get a refund of point value.

    * pets that start with a Mastery magic will lose those abilities when another magic is chosen.

    Everyone should start on this page when wanting to participate in the taming revamp: https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/animal-taming/animal-training/
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    Thanks Pawain, what you have described is all correct to my knowledge. 

    However the point is, I'm sure it's not supposed to be that complex, did @Mesanna sign off on this design??, and the menu doesn't help by offering players the option to put on a second magical ability. I can understand giving the option of a magical ability when a creature has an innate magical ability (because you might not like that default magical ability) but there is NO CIRCUMSTANCE where you would want to give a pet one magical ability then a second which wipes the first without refund.  

    And as you have pointed out, even the official wiki doesn't accurately describe the above, let alone the ingame info. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PawainPawain Posts: 2,799
    edited May 2019
    After you have read that page, you should then read this one: https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/animal-taming/animal-training-abilities/  Do not start putting abilities on pets until you have read both pages.

    Magic Abilities:

    There is a reason you can change Magic Abilities. First, some pets come with a magic ability.

    The big cats come with one of the Masteries.  An Ossein Ram comes with one also, Battle Defense. Nightmares come with Magery. 

    According to your video and opinion, I should not be able to change those.

    Well sorry, I may want to change the Magic on my Ram.  I need the ability to do that. I may want to change my Nightmares magic to Mysticism.  I can do that since I have that option in the menu. 
    A Skree has Magery and Mysticism, what if I want to change that to Chivalry.

    There is another reason to change the Magic Ability.

    Poison:

    Special Abilities

    Venomous Bite (Mana Cost 30)
    Trains the creature in the Venomous Bite special ability, causing the creature to poison all nearby targets.
    Vicious Bite (Mana Cost 20)
    Trains the creature in the Vicious Bite special ability, causing the creature to inflict a festering wound on approaching targets that does direct damage over time.

    Area Effect Abilities

    Aura of Nausea (Mana Cost 100)
    Trains the creature in the Aura of Nausea area effect, causing nearby targets to suffer a reduction in swing speed, hit chance, defence chance and faster casting.
    Poison Breath (Mana Cost 50)
    Trains the creature in the Poison Breath area effect, causing lethal poison to nearby targets.
    Essence of Disease (Mana Cost 20)
    Trains the creature in the Essence of Disease area effect, causing poison damage to nearby targets.

    There are some interesting Poison abilities.  Only pets that have Poison as a Magic can get those abilities.

    So, you can change a Blank pet like the Triton to the Poison Magic ability.  Then you can access those poison abilities.

    You can chose an area or a special and then chose a different Magic Ability.

    Your spell weaving pet can now have a mix of Poison and normal Abilities.

    So, there is a reason that we need to change the magic on a pet. That cost is not refunded.

    If the cost was refunded I could wait 2 mins at a spawn and change my pets abilities. You don't want me to change a suit but you want a pet to freely change abilities at no cost?

    My pet could discord the Boss and then change magics to Magery to kill the Boss if the magic cost was refunded.

    You need to plan your pets build before you build it.


  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    edited May 2019
    Mervyn said:
     I can understand giving the option of a magical ability when a creature has an innate magical ability (because you might not like that default magical ability) but there is NO CIRCUMSTANCE where you would want to give a pet one magical ability then a second which wipes the first without refund.  

    Pawain, since you're going to try and stick opinions on me, I'll quote MYSELF. 

    I have no issue with putting on magical abilities over innate ones. I did it myself on my own Ossein Ram.



    That said, what you said on poisoning is very interesting and helpful - brillo, but again - overly complex and you would need to select poisoning first and not second, so it should then ONLY give the option to select a second magical ability if the first magical ability you chose was poison. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • poppspopps Posts: 1,583
    Pawain said:
    After you have read that page, you should then read this one: https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/animal-taming/animal-training-abilities/  Do not start putting abilities on pets until you have read both pages.

    Magic Abilities:

    There is a reason you can change Magic Abilities. First, some pets come with a magic ability.

    The big cats come with one of the Masteries.  An Ossein Ram comes with one also, Battle Defense. Nightmares come with Magery. 

    According to your video and opinion, I should not be able to change those.

    Well sorry, I may want to change the Magic on my Ram.  I need the ability to do that. I may want to change my Nightmares magic to Mysticism.  I can do that since I have that option in the menu. 
    A Skree has Magery and Mysticism, what if I want to change that to Chivalry.

    There is another reason to change the Magic Ability.

    Poison:

    Special Abilities

    Venomous Bite (Mana Cost 30)
    Trains the creature in the Venomous Bite special ability, causing the creature to poison all nearby targets.
    Vicious Bite (Mana Cost 20)
    Trains the creature in the Vicious Bite special ability, causing the creature to inflict a festering wound on approaching targets that does direct damage over time.

    Area Effect Abilities

    Aura of Nausea (Mana Cost 100)
    Trains the creature in the Aura of Nausea area effect, causing nearby targets to suffer a reduction in swing speed, hit chance, defence chance and faster casting.
    Poison Breath (Mana Cost 50)
    Trains the creature in the Poison Breath area effect, causing lethal poison to nearby targets.
    Essence of Disease (Mana Cost 20)
    Trains the creature in the Essence of Disease area effect, causing poison damage to nearby targets.

    There are some interesting Poison abilities.  Only pets that have Poison as a Magic can get those abilities.

    So, you can change a Blank pet like the Triton to the Poison Magic ability.  Then you can access those poison abilities.

    You can chose an area or a special and then chose a different Magic Ability.

    Your spell weaving pet can now have a mix of Poison and normal Abilities.

    So, there is a reason that we need to change the magic on a pet. That cost is not refunded.

    If the cost was refunded I could wait 2 mins at a spawn and change my pets abilities. You don't want me to change a suit but you want a pet to freely change abilities at no cost?

    My pet could discord the Boss and then change magics to Magery to kill the Boss if the magic cost was refunded.

    You need to plan your pets build before you build it.


    "If the cost was refunded I could wait 2 mins at a spawn and change my pets abilities. You don't want me to change a suit but you want a pet to freely change abilities at no cost?"

    Would it really be the same, though, where changing a pet's School of Magic to another was to be likened to the swapping of a suit ?

    When one swaps a suit, they get "right away" the benefits of that other suit.

    Changing a pet's School of Magic, instead, would not require that pet to then have to train in the School of Magic that it switched to before getting any practical benefit from it ?

    Hence, I wonder, changing a School of Magical in the middle of a fight to a pet would not be like swapping a suit on a character, would it be ?

    And even if it was, perhaps because, as of now, the starting point of the "new" School of Magic is too high, it could be easily taken care of and adjusted by giving, on one side, the full refund of training points back for the School of magery that is lost, AND, on the other side, by setting the starting of the "new" School of Magic at a very low level so that players could not abuse of such a change while in the middle of a fight but would have to train back their pet in the "new" School of Magic in order to get any benefit from it....
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    edited May 2019
    It's all a moot point, because what I actually suggested was not that you get the points refunded, but that you don't get given the option to put on a second magical ability in the first place - because you don't get the points refunded. 


    Also, I would be fine with people having to wait 2 mins out of combat to switch suits...
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • poppspopps Posts: 1,583
    Mervyn said:
    It's all a moot point, because what I actually suggested was not that you get the points refunded, but that you don't get given the option to put on a second magical ability in the first place - because you don't get the points refunded. 


    Also, I would be fine with people having to wait 2 mins out of combat to switch suits...
    Well, on this, I need to agree with @Pawain regarding the need to be able to change School of Magic in the Post https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/26413/#Comment_26413 .

    I do think, though, that in such case the points should be refunded...
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    I also agreed with this. As pawain was talking about replacing innate magical abilities.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PawainPawain Posts: 2,799
    Mervyn said:
    It's all a moot point, because what I actually suggested was not that you get the points refunded, but that you don't get given the option to put on a second magical ability in the first place - because you don't get the points refunded. 


    Also, I would be fine with people having to wait 2 mins out of combat to switch suits...

    I only gave one example on the importance of changing magics.  There are other situations that are also complicated, that allow you to build pets other than AI/Magic.

    We need to be able to change magics.  Players need to plan out the build they want to put on a pet and choose the magic they want the first time or in the correct order.

    Test Center has a clicky that gives you a Triton Statue.  You can release it there or go to Tokuno and bring it back and build it.

    You can also practice building most any pet with the Triton.  If you want to pretend it is a Cu, Put Bleed on it.  If you want to pretend it is a Hiryu, put Dismount and a special Move on it and then build.

    I think the warning gump that tells you any other magic will be erased is enough.

    The Triton is the most user friendly pet that exists in UO.  Stop making it complicated. 

  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    stop making it complicated lol 

    okay so what other situation would you want to add one magic and then add another? 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PawainPawain Posts: 2,799
    edited May 2019
    To skill a passive magic by making it active then switching to the magic you want active.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    edited May 2019
    Gracious in defeat.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PawainPawain Posts: 2,799
    edited May 2019
    Mervyn said:
    Gracious in defeat.
    Ok since you said that Ill toss you a bone.


    Note to all:

    Build number 3 MUST be done in the order I put them in. You can not put the magic first and then get the others.

    It is best to place any of the builds in the order that I showed.  Or go to TC and make sure you can get the abilities that you want.

    Adding Bushido as a magic gives the pet a free Special Move(whirlwind).  If you add that first it counts towards the total. If you add Busido last you will get the free Move even if you have the max already.

    Complicated but some of us have spent two years on it now.

    Also, you do not lose the skills a pet builds.  If you choose Spell weaving and the pet gains to 100 skill.  Then you decide to change to Mysticism the pet will still have to 100 points in spell weaving but the pet can not use that magic ability anymore. But if you switch back, the pet has 100 skill already and can use it.  Passive magics like Ninja and Bush are exceptions to this(they are used when the associated special is used and will gain passively)


  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    So you give a pet bush/ninja first, you train it to full bush/ninja for it to use specials effectively  then you add a magic?

    i knew you were holding back. 

    I would wager that none of this complexity was planned at all. 


    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PawainPawain Posts: 2,799
    edited May 2019
    Mervyn said:
    So you give a pet bush/ninja first, you train it to full bush/ninja for it to use specials effectively  then you add a magic?

    i knew you were holding back. 

    I would wager that none of this complexity was planned at all. 



    Not like that.  You chose your build and lets say you want FWW.  That requires the passive Ninja.  You let it kill stuff and the Ninja goes up while it uses the Ninja passive.  Then you can add another magic and then concentrate on training that one.

    If you put Active Ninja on a pet it gets hiding.  If you put active Bushido on a pet it gets WW.  So sometimes you do not want the abilities that get added.

    Same idea with healing.  It is easier to skill healing if you do not have Chivalry. So you can skill the healing first and then add the chivalry after, then skill it.

    Different magics or abilities skill faster in different ways.

    The one I made with poison yesterday; I put poison on first and got the skill to 100, then I chose abilities and added Chivalry.  Now I am doing things that increase chivalry.

    There are methods of skilling pets just like there are for toons.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,583
    Pawain said:
    Mervyn said:
    Gracious in defeat.
    Ok since you said that Ill toss you a bone.


    Note to all:

    Build number 3 MUST be done in the order I put them in. You can not put the magic first and then get the others.

    It is best to place any of the builds in the order that I showed.  Or go to TC and make sure you can get the abilities that you want.

    Adding Bushido as a magic gives the pet a free Special Move(whirlwind).  If you add that first it counts towards the total. If you add Busido last you will get the free Move even if you have the max already.

    Complicated but some of us have spent two years on it now.

    Also, you do not lose the skills a pet builds.  If you choose Spell weaving and the pet gains to 100 skill.  Then you decide to change to Mysticism the pet will still have to 100 points in spell weaving but the pet can not use that magic ability anymore. But if you switch back, the pet has 100 skill already and can use it.  Passive magics like Ninja and Bush are exceptions to this(they are used when the associated special is used and will gain passively)


    "Build number 3 MUST be done in the order I put them in. You can not put the magic first and then get the others."

    To my opinion, when mechanics like that occur in a game, THEN, I think, such restriction should AMPLY be reported with a Gump popping up that says that.

    There are casual players in games who do not enjoy to have to spend extensive time to "find" things by discovery and trial and error, especially, when mistakes can be very punishing.

    Therefore, if a restricted order is required for a certain Build, THEN, I am of the opinion, that such a "rule" should be reported within the Training text of that pet by adding such "rule" to the available Text with a very much noticeable warning (one that requires to click a Yes or No before advancing).
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    edited May 2019
    All of the above is probably news to the devs.

    there’s no way someone intentionally designed such a convoluted system
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • CookieCookie Posts: 541
    popps said:

    There are casual players in games who do not enjoy to have to spend extensive time to "find" things by discovery and trial and error, especially, when mistakes can be very punishing.


    Yep. I only have 1 tamer, and 1 pet, I don't have time for all of this, but I would do it in more detail if it were possible for a casual player, but of course, alas no. I use the bog standard basic Cu. On one level, I'm happy they put more detail in for the hardcore tamers, but does it have to be as complicated and invisible as it is?


    Mervyn said:
    All of the above is probably news to the devs.

    there’s no way someone intentionally designed such a convoluted system


    And Yes. Ironic and funny. It's news to 99% of players as well.

    Again, not pointing specifically at Taming, we could be having this exact discussion in any number of ingame areas. This is what my general board presence is about, trying to get some game simplification and playability.

    Again, I am not against complication, I am not against layers, I am not against things being hard. But at least make them transparent, logical, possible to understand and play. When the complication, layers, illogicality are incomprehensible and hidden, it puts players off. Give us some more clear structure.

    And you know what, have some hidden content, have some easter eggs, but for gods sake - don't put it in the key skill areas of the game. Make them additional as quests or something, extra's.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 2,799
    Best Taming Forum on the internet can be found here:  https://stratics.com/forums/uo-tamer.419/

    Come ask questions.

    If you have a rare pet, someone will gladly take it on TC and help you build it and go thru the steps.  Also the Pet intensity calculator has a planner that you can use to build from. 
  • Did @Mervyn get banned again already, or is he just using the avatar?
    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,109
    edited May 2019
    The avatar was originally changed without my consent. However now I am just using the image for consistency(branding)
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • Mervyn said:
    The avatar was originally changed without my consent. However now I am just using the image for consistency(branding)
    :thumbsup
    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • CookieCookie Posts: 541
    edited May 2019
    Mervyn said:
    The avatar was originally changed without my consent. However now I am just using the image for consistency(branding)


    Any chance I can get my own personalised one in TB Deep Purple colour like the warhorses?

    (You've got red which suits you, I feel I should have one also...).



  • FenriswolfFenriswolf Posts: 19
    edited May 2019
    wouldn't it just be simpler to allow players to add as many specials, magic, aoe of whatever they want, then there is no ambiguity. They all cost points, all pets have a limited amount of points they come with or already come with certain skills. 

    Just keep the limits on stats/resists and pre-determined skills on pets along with the restrictions on what pets can learn certain things (e.g necromancy) and then its up to the player if they want to add 4 magic abilities on one pet...at the cost of having pretty much no str or health most likely :-)
    We all now that adding too many things on a pet means it runs out of mana and then effectively becomes half the pet it used to be...so it may actually introduce a bit more variety into pet training, as its currently very obvious what the best builds are or which pets are more useful than others.
Sign In or Register to comment.