High Seas QoL Update: Cannons

Kyronix

As you have (or will) in the January newsletter 2019 is going to be full of High Seas updates and new additions!  Due to the massive amount of content in High Seas we are going to be spreading those updates across this year's 4 publishes - Rising Tide, Forgotten Treasures, Forsaken Foes, and Jolly Roger.

The first area we want to focus on is the process, from start to finish, of firing cannons.  

At the highest level we want to address the availability of saltpeter, the harvesting of saltpeter, simplifying the ammunition crafting process, reducing the number of clicks and streamlining the firing and repairing of cannons.

We have some initial thoughts on how to accomplish these goals, but before we start tweaking under the hood we would like to engage the community in a discussion on their expectations so we can deliver the best results we can on this user story.  Looking forward to a fruitful dialogue over the weekend!

Everything in this thread should be considered in-concept & in active development.  Everything is subject to change as we work through the concept, implementation, quality assurance, feedback, TC, Origin, and world wide release process.

Mervyn

Note from moderator: This post has been removed as it does not contribute to this topic.

Pawain

Maybe a cannoneer bag that is part of the Huntsmaster Challenge rewards.  Reduced weight bag that holds all the needed items.  Double click bag and if all the ingredients are inside the cannon will load.   Maybe have to choose which type ball to load at that point.

This would lead to new critters to kill and stuff.  Maybe add a room to the ranger station that holds some peerless trophies,Navrey type things, Spawn bosses.  Along with new things to stuff in general.

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Garth_Grey

It all starts with the creation of the ammunition. Firing the cannons is not so much an issue, as it's expected to be done in steps just like a real ships cannon would be cleaned loaded and fired in steps. Please start out with the crafting process. If I have 100% chance to craft fuse cords, and all of the items are in my backpack, I should be able to craft, in its entirety, the lot...with a single click. As it is, Charcoal, which requires simply a stack of boards and 0 skill, and with 1 or 2 clicks you've made your entire stack of wood into charcoal...potash, which requires boards...gives you 1 potash at a time.....we lost so much interest in High Seas as soon as players realized how much time it was going to take, just to create the ammunition.

2nd...please consider increasing the ships speed. As it is, a ship sailing along the shore at high speed, is only as fast as a player in wolf form, at walking speed, not running speed...walking speed. I'm not saying we should be able to fly across the oceans while shooting cannons, but we absolutely need a travel speed where the only thing that happens is, the ship travels across the water a speed faster than running, which is only simple physics.

3rd..please consider adding more items to the crates. While there's probably not a huge demand for Frostwood, it made no sense that it was never added as a commodity that would be frequently carried across the waters from port to port for trading, and it also made no sens that Orc ships and Dread Pirates would not be carrying the absolute best items in their holds...50 cabbage ? really ? I'm not saying all available content should be attainable via the High Seas, but it could be tweaked a little. Gems, resources of all types, better weapons loot.

I look forward to this discussion and what others think.

TimSt

I have not gotten to the point of using cannons yet but I will recommend a cannon related decoration:  A damaged cannon that has the end of it's barrel split into 5 or 6 slices and it puffs out smoke when turned on.

Tyrath

Obtaining Saltpeter is fine as is with the two options of buying it from the alchemist or mining it.  Spent 2-3 hours mining it the other night and and had enough to make 1100 and some change fuse cords.  Saltpeter is the ONLY thing that makes mining a viable profession unless you want to be scripting scumbag, since you guys won't return mining to static

  It is the making the fuse cords where the biggest problem is, I hate MAKING POT ASH, Everyone HATES MAKING POTASH.  Make pot ash 1 click per stack like charcoal,  Make making black powder 1 click make all if all if Ash/Charcoal/saltpeter are all in the pack. Making the actual fuse cords is not bad as is.  But just making it so black powder and potash are 1 click make all would cut 2/3s out of one of the most boring task in UO out of the equation.

 I really could care less about the failure rate on making black powder. 30% failure rate at 100 alchemy BUT a 30 tali or a 20 tali and a hyg amulet negates that. 

  3 speed ships slow, meduim and Fast... Maybe the speed of running on foot.  Slow and medium can fire cannons, fast cannons can't be fired or have a hefty penalty to hit chance and damage. 

  A damage/hit chance bonus depending on the metal type used to make the cannons 0 bonus at steel  and max bonus at Val.   and cannons that retain the color of the metal they are made from.

  Instead of clicking through the entire cannon firing process make it one click that takes you through though the entire process at some arbitrary average speed of doing it.  Would just streamline the process.  Only have to select ammo if you have more than one kind in the pack.

 Don't see a problem with dread pirate loot when you kill them with a healthy amount of majors and the occasional legendary.  Maybe add a couple of unique mid range drops to them.

 Dread Pirate ship loot just plain sucks and is not worth the cost of the fuse cords to scuttle it. Who though making pirate ships floating farmers markets was a good idea?

  Put the bigger cannons in that were part of the original concept What was it dragon cannon or 48 pounders can't remember the name of them.  Make them double damage at 2x the loading/firing speed of the current heavy cannons. 

  Add a couple new ships just for looks and diversity

 Lower the cost of making cannon balls by 2.

 Remove the junk ammo from the bounty hunter quest and perhaps add parts to make the proposed new ships or parts to put together a brit ship maybe 24 parts to make a brit ship.  LOL those of us that spend considerable amounts of time doing the high seas content already have fleets of orc ships but they should not be removed for those who said screw high seas and never looked back but would be interested if it was not a major time sink.

 

Garth_Grey

.

Pawain

Ok I agree with the crafting.  Garth does a lot more than I do with Cannons.  
I relent to his crafting Ideas except the Salt Peter. As Tyrath said, miners could actually sell this. Crafting is a pain. I forgot how long it took.

My satchel idea comes from the way I store my cannon supplies.  I put 5 shots worth of items in a wooden box with engraved size and ball type.

Would be nice if I could just carry more in 1 thing and not have to dig around in the box I want.

I don't need realism with cannon loading. 

PlayerSkillFTW

Make the vanilla ships the Fastest (they don't carry many people or cargo or any cannons), Tokuno Ships Fast (best used by Fishermen on Fishing BoD quest), Gargoyle Ships Medium, Orc Ships are Slow, while the Brittanian Ship is Slowest. Basically, the more combat viable it is, the slower it is.

Reloading cannons would first pull any required resources from the Hold of the ship, rather than the players. Frost Cannonballs being able to temporarily slow down a hit ship would be nice, acting like a Chain Shot to the mast. Fire Cannonballs could inflict more damage to the enemy ship, while applying a Greater Conflagration to the ship for several seconds, damaging anybody standing in it. Maybe add a "Grape Shot" that inflicts more damage to the enemy crew.

Deraj

Currently it requires up to 5 crafting skills to put together the firing necessities: blacksmithing, tinkering, tailoring, alchemy and cooking. This should be reduced to just tinkering and alchemy, my suggestion for what goes where is this:

Tinkering

-Ramrod

-Swab

-Match

-Grapeshot

-Cannonball

-Powder Charge

Alchemy

-Potash

-Charcoal

-Black Powder

-Fuse Cord

-Match Cord (suggestion: remove this one and add its ingredients to the Match)

Further suggestions:

-As already noted in the thread, provide a way for crafters to mass produce items faster, rather than one at a time (such as with potash)

-Change the skill for repairing both ship and cannon to tinkering

-Make it possible to repair a ship to normal speed at sea without having to take it to shore (but perhaps not necessarily fully repaired)

-Remove light/heavy cannons, replace with just "cannons" (and by extension, light/heavy charges, grapeshot and cannonballs). I don't see what's the point of having two different types. Alternatively, have cannons add weight to a ship, causing it to move slower (giving some kind of benefit to using light cannons, and making cannon-less ships the fastest (and on that note, it would be interesting if cargo hold weight was also a concern to speed when carrying large quantities of items))

-Lower the yield of the ship painting. This basically makes crafting charges pointless because it produces so many charges.

-Keep the cannon firing process as is, but permit a player to select any step in the process and the character will perform all the tasks up to the selected point.

Victim_Of_Siege

I would like to see the speeds of the ship adjusted as well. Give us a slow(current speed) a medium maybe 50%-60% faster. then a travel speed to get from place to place that is as fast as a running mounted player or faster as Garth said, this speed should render cannons unusable.  my thoughts on the crafting line up with Garth and Tyrath, if i click make max make as many pieces as i have resources for instantly.  firing them could be made easier, but I won't lose any sleep over it if you don't change it, the steps now give it a realistic, immersive feel that i personally enjoy. the macros i have created in EC make it a one button push action anyway. i would leave Salt peter mining alone, with a max luck suit mining in Fel, you can get large quantities quickly on prodo. As for Siege, i would like to see the amount bumped there since we cannot get the fel luck bonus. 

Pawain

The prices of the ingredients for fish pies are too high.  

Can you see how many pies are being made daily.  They do not sell on vendors because the effects are too short and the price is too high.  They have been nerfed in PvP. Let PvM use them.

Make the cost less and the duration longer please.

I also like the idea of a single size cannon.  But I do not know if there is an advantage for using the smaller ones.

Kyronix

There is a lot of great feedback already, and much of it we will address in future publishes throughout the year.  Let’s keep this thread on the topic of cannons.

MissE

Personally I would rather just have:

Blacksmith: Craft Cannons, Cannonballs, Grapeshot (out of ingots)

Tinker: Craft fuses (out of  feathers)

Carpenter: Craft Ramrod, Swab, Match (out of wood) (only have to do once as pirate ships have as loot)

Alchemist: Craft Powder Charge (out of saltpeter or from painting)

none of this multiple 'assemblies' to make one thing, it is boring and a waste of time. Get rid of all the fussing about.

Give us a cannon bag to contain supplies and you right click it to 'load cannon' which it does instantly and you then fire it by clicking on the cannon. 

I fight a lot of pirates and it just gets old all the mucking about. 

Seth

Dear Devs,

1) Too many steps and ingredients to fire a cannon. Please simply this .

2) Solo players have to fire each cannon manually. Please allow us to hire crews, so that we can command which ever cannon (individual) or entire starboard or port side to fire.

3) We will then have, one NPC crew standing next to each cannon.

4) A pop up dash board to command the war

5) Make it more fun... convert the cannon guys to warriors instantly,  board the enemy ship to fight. 

6) Ships to have varying speed control, ie slow, normal, fast, and desperately fast...(panic).

7) Submarines and Aquaman is desirable addition if you can do it.

8) Add whales and sharks. 

9) Add Harpoons

10) Start new snorkelling and diving shops.

Victim_Of_Siege

on the size of cannons, there really is no incentive (that i am aware of) to use the light cannons, so my vote would be to have one size cannon, and I like the idea That Tyrath suggested with modifiers to damage/hci for colored ore cannons.  my suggestion would be to have a tinker make cannons, and ammunition and the alchemist make the black powder charges and instead of making powder, then a charge, make it all at once. leave the fuses out of the mix entirely streamline it down to clean, charge/load (think bullet)  fire. 3 steps is enough to make it feel realistic but not as slow as it is currently.    

Uriah_Heep

Not cannon related, but something to think on...

Currently, I don't get the reason to toss nets, other than white ones.  So you fish up a chest, get a fishing net and toss it.  You get a kraken and a serpent, kill them, loot the 200 gps, and wonder, "Is that all there is for this?".

Yeah I know there is a chance for another sos, or another net, which seems kinda like treading water to me, since they are just gonna yield the same ole same ole, with no chance for anything good.

Please consider part of the next years improvements to be for these, as well

Victim_Of_Siege

Seth said:

Dear Devs,

1) Too many steps and ingredients to fire a cannon. Please simply this .

2) Solo players have to fire each cannon manually. Please allow us to hire crews, so that we can command which ever cannon (individual) or entire starboard or port side to fire.

3) We will then have, one NPC crew standing next to each cannon.

4) A pop up dash board to command the war

5) Make it more fun... convert the cannon guys to warriors instantly,  board the enemy ship to fight. 

6) Ships to have varying speed control, ie slow, normal, fast, and desperately fast...(panic).

7) Submarines and Aquaman is desirable addition if you can do it.

8) Add whales and sharks. 

9) Add Harpoons

10) Start new snorkelling and diving shops.

I like #8 ans #9 The crew idea in #2 has been suggested before and I like the idea as long as there is a loyalty aspect to them, the same as pets. Maybe have to pay them every hour or so to keep them on task. (maybe gold or Rum, not looking to add a gold sink personally just make it not be easy mode)

Tyrath

Victim_Of_Siege said:

Seth said:

Dear Devs,

1) Too many steps and ingredients to fire a cannon. Please simply this .

2) Solo players have to fire each cannon manually. Please allow us to hire crews, so that we can command which ever cannon (individual) or entire starboard or port side to fire.

3) We will then have, one NPC crew standing next to each cannon.

4) A pop up dash board to command the war

5) Make it more fun... convert the cannon guys to warriors instantly,  board the enemy ship to fight. 

6) Ships to have varying speed control, ie slow, normal, fast, and desperately fast...(panic).

7) Submarines and Aquaman is desirable addition if you can do it.

8) Add whales and sharks. 

9) Add Harpoons

10) Start new snorkelling and diving shops.

I like #8 ans #9 The crew idea in #2 has been suggested before and I like the idea as long as there is a loyalty aspect to them, the same as pets. Maybe have to pay them every hour or so to keep them on task. (maybe gold or Rum, not looking to add a gold sink personally just make it not be easy mode)

#2 could be interesting but really not that difficult to fire the cannons as is...... it is the headache of setting up the macro to make it 1 or 2 click or the clickiness of it without the macro.  But can stand in the center and fire 4 cannons on a orc ships.  LOL that is why my front 3 are always pristine and my back 4 are always moderately to heavily damaged. 

  I might be wrong but it seems to me the idea with ships and firing cannons was to be a group activity and not a solo thing.  Personally I would rather see more living crewing the ships than boats full of NPC crews.  A ship with a player crew actually works very well.  The problem is the rewards are barely worth doing it solo.  Splitting the plunder 3-4 ways would in no way be worth the resources and time.

 And a thought I had last night How about a randomly spawning Pirate Man of War.  A Super Pirate Ship crewed by all dread pirates and a pirate king.  Something that would take 3-4 player ships to scuttle and a reasonable shot at some high end drops for everyone on the player ships that did damage to the Man of War.  Give the big brit ships some bonus damage against them and make the brit ships useful for more than lobster fishing and additional storage   Can think of a number of ways a BIG brit ship or two would be tactically useful against a BIG powerful Pirate King Ship.

Ivenor

Kyronix said:

There is a lot of great feedback already, and much of it we will address in future publishes throughout the year.  Let’s keep this thread on the topic of cannons.

OK, let's talk cannons. There is any chance to have the DARN Lighthouse bug fixed and/or to have my 10 bucks Britannia ship back before I become a loose cannon on the topic???

I.

Pawain

So: @Kyronix

1. Make crafting the needed parts for firing less time consuming.
1a. Make the firing less complex.
2. Make the cannons all the same size  (unless there is an advantage to smaller ones)
3. A pouch to hold the firing ingredients including balls.  That reduces weight and allows choice of ball type.
4. Make different ores have an advantage if that would help with the new changes.

5, other?

Easy peasy so far!

Then there are other areas to discuss.

Thanks for taking our input

Seth

Tyrath said:

Victim_Of_Siege said:

Seth said:

Dear Devs,

1) Too many steps and ingredients to fire a cannon. Please simply this .

2) Solo players have to fire each cannon manually. Please allow us to hire crews, so that we can command which ever cannon (individual) or entire starboard or port side to fire.

3) We will then have, one NPC crew standing next to each cannon.

4) A pop up dash board to command the war

5) Make it more fun... convert the cannon guys to warriors instantly,  board the enemy ship to fight. 

6) Ships to have varying speed control, ie slow, normal, fast, and desperately fast...(panic).

7) Submarines and Aquaman is desirable addition if you can do it.

8) Add whales and sharks. 

9) Add Harpoons

10) Start new snorkelling and diving shops.

I like #8 ans #9 The crew idea in #2 has been suggested before and I like the idea as long as there is a loyalty aspect to them, the same as pets. Maybe have to pay them every hour or so to keep them on task. (maybe gold or Rum, not looking to add a gold sink personally just make it not be easy mode)

#2 could be interesting but really not that difficult to fire the cannons as is...... it is the headache of setting up the macro to make it 1 or 2 click or the clickiness of it without the macro.  But can stand in the center and fire 4 cannons on a orc ships.  LOL that is why my front 3 are always pristine and my back 4 are always moderately to heavily damaged. 

  I might be wrong but it seems to me the idea with ships and firing cannons was to be a group activity and not a solo thing.  Personally I would rather see more living crewing the ships than boats full of NPC crews.  A ship with a player crew actually works very well.  The problem is the rewards are barely worth doing it solo.  Splitting the plunder 3-4 ways would in no way be worth the resources and time.

 And a thought I had last night How about a randomly spawning Pirate Man of War.  A Super Pirate Ship crewed by all dread pirates and a pirate king.  Something that would take 3-4 player ships to scuttle and a reasonable shot at some high end drops for everyone on the player ships that did damage to the Man of War.  Give the big brit ships some bonus damage against them and make the brit ships useful for more than lobster fishing and additional storage   Can think of a number of ways a BIG brit ship or two would be tactically useful against a BIG powerful Pirate King Ship.

#2 Technically speaking, you are right that it was meant to be a team game and I also prefer live players onboard. But in reality these days, it is hard to get a team to operate a ship each time we go to sea (except maybe Atlantic?). It is better to go with the Solo option, and 2 person can have a 1v1 pvp ship battle in high seas. If there are warring guilds of say 5 per side, then it will become a Naval Battle.

Adding #11

I like the idea of Pirate Man Of War. Perhaps allow us to capture say X number of such ships to find remnant parts to build a new Pirate Man of War. This is the only way to get this new ship. It should have double layers of cannons per side (2 layers cannons hidden below deck on real MOW).

Adding #12

Maybe the above Pirate King is the new boss of the sea which we need to hunt.

Adding #13

Technically speaking adding Cannon means "Gun Powder" technology is exists in the game world. So, should there be muskets and musketeers?

MissE

I don't want any added content to run a ship or take a pirate vessel down that REQUIRES more than one person on the boat.  If so it will totally DESTROY what small amount of fun there currently is.  On small shards you will never get a crew EVER so even thinking about making it a mutliplayer event will have a seriously negative impact.  That is not to say multiplayers can't man your boat and do whatever, just make sure it isn't compulsory.  I also don't want to hire npc's to man cannons, that is just another level of complexity. 

If anything we should have a console at the wheel that allows the captain to fire off any cannon #1-7 or however many there are with the click of a button, same as you should have your cannon bag and 'select' load cannon 1,  load cannon 4 etc as well as it being able to be done manually at each cannon.   I currently use ONE cannon on my boat, the front one, any more than that is overkill to take down a pirate ship, not to mention a pain in the butt running from one to the other, and then having multiple cannons to fix all the time and getting the boat aligned to actually fire at the thing you are aiming at.

Even given what I said in my post above, my personal wish would be we have cannons and cannon balls, THAT'S IT, get rid of all the rest of the junk.  Load cannon ball and fire. DONE.  Smithy can make both items. Take out all the rigmarole.

It's not like when you have an archer you make em:

• remove arrow from quiver,
• load arrow onto bow,
• pull bow string,
• release bow string,
• reload

is it?  If you can imagine what that would be like to play an archer then that is how it currently is to use a cannon.  Not to mention the seriously boring and convoluted mess crafting all the stuff is to start with.

Petra_Fyde

My take:
Potash should be crafted in the same way as charcoal, all in one move.
Reduce the steps to produce matches - not that I've made any since the first ship I scuttled - or put matches on npc shipwrights and remove crafting them completely, they are too easily obtained as loot to need crafting.
Cleaning should happen automatically as the finish of firing - dirty cannons wouldn't be left on a ship. Provided the required swab is in the back pack.
Loading should in one step use all required items, provided they are in the back pack, giving a cursor for 'select ammo' if more than one ammo type is present in the backpack. This would bring cannon firing to 2 actions only 'load' and 'fire'. 

Light cannons seem to be redundant - why were they added?  Have we missed the intended use? 
IF they have no use, please remove them from the crafting menu and as drops, along with all associated ammo. (brings to mind a pet peeve, essence of persistence, give it a use or remove it please! I keep getting it in treasure maps.)

Garth_Grey

MissE said:

I don't want any added content to run a ship or take a pirate vessel down that REQUIRES more than one person on the boat.  If so it will totally DESTROY what small amount of fun there currently is.  On small shards you will never get a crew EVER so even thinking about making it a mutliplayer event will have a seriously negative impact.  That is not to say multiplayers can't man your boat and do whatever, just make sure it isn't compulsory.  I also don't want to hire npc's to man cannons, that is just another level of complexity. 

If anything we should have a console at the wheel that allows the captain to fire off any cannon #1-7 or however many there are with the click of a button, same as you should have your cannon bag and 'select' load cannon 1,  load cannon 4 etc as well as it being able to be done manually at each cannon.   I currently use ONE cannon on my boat, the front one, any more than that is overkill to take down a pirate ship, not to mention a pain in the butt running from one to the other, and then having multiple cannons to fix all the time and getting the boat aligned to actually fire at the thing you are aiming at.

Even given what I said in my post above, my personal wish would be we have cannons and cannon balls, THAT'S IT, get rid of all the rest of the junk.  Load cannon ball and fire. DONE.  Smithy can make both items. Take out all the rigmarole.

It's not like when you have an archer you make em:

• remove arrow from quiver,
• load arrow onto bow,
• pull bow string,
• release bow string,
• reload

is it?  If you can imagine what that would be like to play an archer then that is how it currently is to use a cannon.  Not to mention the seriously boring and convoluted mess crafting all the stuff is to start with.

This read sounds like you're trying to tell the rest of us that your way to sink ships is the only needed way. Right now, all we need is a simplification of the ammunition creation process..that's it. Cannons work just fine the way they are, the ammunition types are pretty much worthless other than heavy cannon balls, and this comment is coming from someone who's collected 225 orc ships to date, although I'm sure someone else has 500.

Kyronix

Thanks for the amazing feedback so far - we really appreciate great dialogue like this. 

Here is where my current thinking is with regard to a few things, again - super high level and nothing is set in stone. 

The acquisition of saltpeter is mostly ok.  If anything, the yield from mining should get a bump.

Matches are a redundant item to a torch which should serve the same purpose.  Matches and match chord would no longer be craftable and/or drop.  Can turn them in for cleanup points.

Potash should function on a make-all situation similar to charcoal.

Remove the distinction between heavy and light cannons, everything is just a cannon.  Add the unused giant cannon tileart, and possibly add some more.  The look of the cannon becomes purely cosmetic.

Crafting creates a "powder charge".  Heavy and light powder charges convert to "powder charges".  The ship painting produces "powder charges".  "Powder charges" essentially become what "heavy powder charges" used to be.

The same applies to heavy and light ammo types.  "Heavy cannonballs" and "heavy grapeshot" essentially become "cannonballs" and "grapeshot".

Everything else stays the same with regard to the crafting skills they are associated with.

The same applies to specialty ammo - "light" is essentially converted to "heavy" and becomes the default.

Cannon durability scales with the material crafted with iron -> valorize, with the cannon being hued appropriately.

The firing prep-process requires one click.  This will begin a timer that moves the cannon through each of the fire steps automatically.  You then click again to fire when ready.

Cannons will have a container attached to them that you put the firing materials in with a restriction on how much in terms of ammo/charges you can put in.  You will only be able to put in one ammo type.

Whether or not you should be able to fire the cannons without standing near them remains TBD.  I had originally thought about being able to hire NPC crews to fire the cannons for you to accomplish this, but this dramatically increases the scope, and I'm not sure we have that kind of runway.  How strong should your NPC crew be?  Should they take damage in Fel? How much damage from Cannons vs offensive PvNPC Crew ranged attacks/spells?  Pets?  There is of course the question as to whether an NPC is even necessary.  I think it's a bit of a stretch to be able to fire the cannons on the other side of your ship without some intermediary that can be stopped, at least to keep the Fel side of things balanced and for logic sake.  Given the complexity here, I think NPC crews are unlikely to happen.

That all being said I think we can put the firing controls into a single main gump the captain/crew can access via speech trigger from anywhere on the ship, and simply require proximity to the cannon in order for the loading/cleaning/firing process to work.  Perhaps there would be a benefit from accessing a single cannon as opposed to the main control to incentivize group play on a ship, but still allow realistic utilization of the cannons as a solo captain.  At this point I would say this is a reach goal depending on all the other goals we want to meet.

Thanks again for all the contributions so far, and we look forward to continued feedback!

Drakelord

MissE said:

Personally I would rather just have:

Blacksmith: Craft Cannons, Cannonballs, Grapeshot (out of ingots)

Tinker: Craft fuses (out of  feathers)

Carpenter: Craft Ramrod, Swab, Match (out of wood) (only have to do once as pirate ships have as loot)

Alchemist: Craft Powder Charge (out of saltpeter or from painting)

none of this multiple 'assemblies' to make one thing, it is boring and a waste of time. Get rid of all the fussing about.

Give us a cannon bag to contain supplies and you right click it to 'load cannon' which it does instantly and you then fire it by clicking on the cannon. 

I fight a lot of pirates and it just gets old all the mucking about. 

I like all I read so far except for the fuse part above, you need to keep some sort of black powder along with your feathers to craft a fuse IMO, I agree about the rest.  I would like to see different color cannons using different ingots not just iron.

Victim_Of_Siege

Kyronix said:

Thanks for the amazing feedback so far - we really appreciate great dialogue like this. 

Here is where my current thinking is with regard to a few things, again - super high level and nothing is set in stone. 

The acquisition of saltpeter is mostly ok.  If anything, the yield from mining should get a bump.

Matches are a redundant item to a torch which should serve the same purpose.  Matches and match chord would no longer be craftable and/or drop.  Can turn them in for cleanup points.

Potash should function on a make-all situation similar to charcoal.

Remove the distinction between heavy and light cannons, everything is just a cannon.  Add the unused giant cannon tileart, and possibly add some more.  The look of the cannon becomes purely cosmetic.

Crafting creates a "powder charge".  Heavy and light powder charges convert to "powder charges".  The ship painting produces "powder charges".  "Powder charges" essentially become what "heavy powder charges" used to be.

The same applies to heavy and light ammo types.  "Heavy cannonballs" and "heavy grapeshot" essentially become "cannonballs" and "grapeshot".

Everything else stays the same with regard to the crafting skills they are associated with.

The same applies to specialty ammo - "light" is essentially converted to "heavy" and becomes the default.

Cannon durability scales with the material crafted with iron -> valorize, with the cannon being hued appropriately.

The firing prep-process requires one click.  This will begin a timer that moves the cannon through each of the fire steps automatically.  You then click again to fire when ready.

Cannons will have a container attached to them that you put the firing materials in with a restriction on how much in terms of ammo/charges you can put in.  You will only be able to put in one ammo type.

Whether or not you should be able to fire the cannons without standing near them remains TBD.  I had originally thought about being able to hire NPC crews to fire the cannons for you to accomplish this, but this dramatically increases the scope, and I'm not sure we have that kind of runway.  How strong should your NPC crew be?  Should they take damage in Fel? How much damage from Cannons vs offensive PvNPC Crew ranged attacks/spells?  Pets?  There is of course the question as to whether an NPC is even necessary.  I think it's a bit of a stretch to be able to fire the cannons on the other side of your ship without some intermediary that can be stopped, at least to keep the Fel side of things balanced and for logic sake.  Given the complexity here, I think NPC crews are unlikely to happen.

That all being said I think we can put the firing controls into a single main gump the captain/crew can access via speech trigger from anywhere on the ship, and simply require proximity to the cannon in order for the loading/cleaning/firing process to work.  Perhaps there would be a benefit from accessing a single cannon as opposed to the main control to incentivize group play on a ship, but still allow realistic utilization of the cannons as a solo captain.  At this point I would say this is a reach goal depending on all the other goals we want to meet.

Thanks again for all the contributions so far, and we look forward to continued feedback!

Looks good to me, i agree on the crew being a complicated thing that could be a potential disaster. the main complaint most folks have had is the crafting of the ingredients for the powder charges, the rest of it was a minor annoyance. Your steps to fix it sound good to me. Thank you for listening and for all that you do. 

Deraj

Kyronix said:

Whether or not you should be able to fire the cannons without standing near them remains TBD.  I had originally thought about being able to hire NPC crews to fire the cannons for you to accomplish this, but this dramatically increases the scope, and I'm not sure we have that kind of runway.  How strong should your NPC crew be?  Should they take damage in Fel? How much damage from Cannons vs offensive PvNPC Crew ranged attacks/spells?  Pets?  There is of course the question as to whether an NPC is even necessary.  I think it's a bit of a stretch to be able to fire the cannons on the other side of your ship without some intermediary that can be stopped, at least to keep the Fel side of things balanced and for logic sake.  Given the complexity here, I think NPC crews are unlikely to happen.

That all being said I think we can put the firing controls into a single main gump the captain/crew can access via speech trigger from anywhere on the ship, and simply require proximity to the cannon in order for the loading/cleaning/firing process to work.  Perhaps there would be a benefit from accessing a single cannon as opposed to the main control to incentivize group play on a ship, but still allow realistic utilization of the cannons as a solo captain.  At this point I would say this is a reach goal depending on all the other goals we want to meet.

Kyronix, I realize this is a bit beyond the scope of cannons, but as cannon functionality reaches into other aspects of ship combat I think this is worth mentioning anyways, as it might help answer the questions posed.

I could see crews being a worthwhile approach, but I think the way ship combat functions should be reframed more to "boat vs boat". A few months ago I posted this idea in a Stratics thread about High Seas updates, so I will just repost part of it here:

To put it simply, I think that being on a ship should provide a substantial damage and hit reduction to the players on board from opponents outside of the boat. Here is what I mean, for example, if someone from a different boat fires an arrow at you while you are on your boat, the chance of being hit, as well as the damage received if hit, would be drastically reduced. Same with spells. This not to say that ranged combat would be completely ineffective, but the point would be to reframe the focus of the ship fighting more to manning the ship, rather than trying to get the players individually on the other ship, if that makes sense. I've done a couple of boat battles over the course of time, and most battles seem to be reduced to merely trying to pick off players on the other boat with arrows/spells, rather than boat vs boat.

This principle would work with monsters as well. For example cannons do a fair bit of damage against the Scalis Enforcer but the AoE of that monster is so devastating and hard to adjust to, everyone on the boat just dies in a few moments regardless, making the value of the boat questionable. If the damage reduction applied, players could actually persist through the fight (while still having to deal with some of the damage, but nothing as unmanageable as consecutive 60hp damage hits) but the focus would be more on firing cannons and keeping the boat alive.

On that note, I think also that how boats are repaired needs to be looked at as well. Personally I think it takes too many resources to keep boats repaired, and I also dislike that a boat cannot be fully repaired while at sea, because if the ship becomes badly damaged it has to be brought to shore before it can be put back to normal speed. Now, if it were possible to restore the ship's speed while at sea, I wouldn't mind that a ship cannot be 100% repaired while at sea. But I think that boat maintenance should be something players tend to during a fight just as actively as they tend to cannons. Ultimately the boat fighting mechanics should be a balance between tactical navigation, boat maintenance, cannon damage, and dealing with the reduced damage received individually in the course of a battle.

To attempt to answer your questions:

How strong should the NPC be?

It could be as strong as a player or it could be as strong as an average pirate/merchant NPC. If it can be healed then that would give players a chance to keep it alive when it is being hammered either by cannon fire or sea monster attacks.

Should they take damage in Fel?

They could take reduced damage from arrows/spells shot from outside of the boat, which gives the ship captain a better chance of using them effectively. The way they should be taking damage primarily should be from grapeshot, which could be exempt from this hypothetical damage reduction rule.

How much damage from Cannons vs offensive PvNPC Crew ranged attacks/spells? Pets?

Since this idea reframes ship combat to cannon vs cannon, the weapon of choice should be a cannon until one of the boats is damage enough to be boarded, at which point players could board the other boat and use their normal weapons/spells at their regular effectiveness.

Tyrath

Kyronix said:

Thanks for the amazing feedback so far - we really appreciate great dialogue like this. 

Here is where my current thinking is with regard to a few things, again - super high level and nothing is set in stone. 

The acquisition of saltpeter is mostly ok.  If anything, the yield from mining should get a bump.

Matches are a redundant item to a torch which should serve the same purpose.  Matches and match chord would no longer be craftable and/or drop.  Can turn them in for cleanup points.

Potash should function on a make-all situation similar to charcoal.

Remove the distinction between heavy and light cannons, everything is just a cannon.  Add the unused giant cannon tileart, and possibly add some more.  The look of the cannon becomes purely cosmetic.

Crafting creates a "powder charge".  Heavy and light powder charges convert to "powder charges".  The ship painting produces "powder charges".  "Powder charges" essentially become what "heavy powder charges" used to be.

The same applies to heavy and light ammo types.  "Heavy cannonballs" and "heavy grapeshot" essentially become "cannonballs" and "grapeshot".

Everything else stays the same with regard to the crafting skills they are associated with.

The same applies to specialty ammo - "light" is essentially converted to "heavy" and becomes the default.

Cannon durability scales with the material crafted with iron -> valorize, with the cannon being hued appropriately.

The firing prep-process requires one click.  This will begin a timer that moves the cannon through each of the fire steps automatically.  You then click again to fire when ready.

Cannons will have a container attached to them that you put the firing materials in with a restriction on how much in terms of ammo/charges you can put in.  You will only be able to put in one ammo type.

Whether or not you should be able to fire the cannons without standing near them remains TBD.  I had originally thought about being able to hire NPC crews to fire the cannons for you to accomplish this, but this dramatically increases the scope, and I'm not sure we have that kind of runway.  How strong should your NPC crew be?  Should they take damage in Fel? How much damage from Cannons vs offensive PvNPC Crew ranged attacks/spells?  Pets?  There is of course the question as to whether an NPC is even necessary.  I think it's a bit of a stretch to be able to fire the cannons on the other side of your ship without some intermediary that can be stopped, at least to keep the Fel side of things balanced and for logic sake.  Given the complexity here, I think NPC crews are unlikely to happen.

That all being said I think we can put the firing controls into a single main gump the captain/crew can access via speech trigger from anywhere on the ship, and simply require proximity to the cannon in order for the loading/cleaning/firing process to work.  Perhaps there would be a benefit from accessing a single cannon as opposed to the main control to incentivize group play on a ship, but still allow realistic utilization of the cannons as a solo captain.  At this point I would say this is a reach goal depending on all the other goals we want to meet.

Thanks again for all the contributions so far, and we look forward to continued feedback!

   I would not give saltpeter a bump on prodo shards the reason being.  Just running a simple 1800ish luck suit on prodo I average 1800-2200 mining tram side and 2200-2400 per hour mining fel side.  Running a 2430 suit those numbers jump considerable to an average of 2800-3000 tram side and 3000-3200 fel side.  Running ZERO luck it is in the 800-1000 range tram side and 1000-1200 range fel side. 

  Siege on the other hand there does need to be a bump and simply applying the fel luck bonus to Siege would achieve that.  Can't see many people willing to risk a max luck suit to mine saltpeter    1500-1800 semi junk suits are what I wear on Siege and am in the 1800-2200 range per hour with a average closer to 1900-2000 per hour.  Another 1k luck would get that equal to current saltpeter mining with a max luck suit on tram prodo. 

 Adding another 2 alchemist one of Zento Dock and one on Brit Docks (tram and fel) would be a big help for those that would rather buy the saltpeter than mine it. 

  I have made exactly ONE match since high seas was released. So yep never saw the point in them beyond the first one.

 What about using the current console and modding it to simply operate cannon and a final click to fire?   As it is on a orc ship you can be front or back and in range of 4 cannons and have all four cannons gumps open and with a little practice get reasonably good at ship flipping to fire one side and flip to fire the other side.

  Is it possible to tie ranged and throwing for the stinky Gargs into the  DI of cannons? Always seemed to me cannons are a ranged attack and should benefit from increased ranged skills and tactics.  Or is that getting into the realm of overly complex in the coding?

  I like the idea of loading a container with fuses, cannon balls and charges and it consuming from those containers.  Carrying around 100 cannon balls, 100 charges and 100 fuses really adds the pack weight up fast.

Wentoxxx

Regarding the simplification and automation of canon fire system I suggest to bring a chest next to canon where you can bring all necessary items to fire/reload. And change menu to manual fire ( like now ) and automatic where you can choose how many shoots should be done with automatic reloading with at maximum of 10 shots if all necessary resources are in the chest.