DEVs make UO consensual PvP only

Garth_Grey

Augustus said:

I would like a server that was Fel everywhere but didn't have the other Siege rules

"So would we"...most Siege players.

Honkwomp

Ahh, a debate raging since Tram started!
Tram exists because PVPers made the game so miserable for everyone else,  something had to be done.  Newbie whacking became sport. Involuntary prey  Mervyn summed it up.  It seems to me that PVPers who want a challenge can fight each other anytime.  But I think for many, they just want to pwn someone, the easier they can pwn them the better.  Going to Fel is the same as consenting to PVP isn't it?  So, all those who want to be prey can volunteer to do so in Fel.  If you have a lack of targets, that is your problem  Don't make someone be prey for you simply because that is what you like

Syncros

Honkwomp said:

Ahh, a debate raging since Tram started!
Tram exists because PVPers made the game so miserable for everyone else,  something had to be done.  Newbie whacking became sport. Involuntary prey  Mervyn summed it up.  It seems to me that PVPers who want a challenge can fight each other anytime.  But I think for many, they just want to pwn someone, the easier they can pwn them the better.  Going to Fel is the same as consenting to PVP isn't it?  So, all those who want to be prey can volunteer to do so in Fel.  If you have a lack of targets, that is your problem  Don't make someone be prey for you simply because that is what you like

Exactly.  

Tim

Syncros said:

Honkwomp said:

Ahh, a debate raging since Tram started!
Tram exists because PVPers made the game so miserable for everyone else,  something had to be done.  Newbie whacking became sport. Involuntary prey  Mervyn summed it up.  It seems to me that PVPers who want a challenge can fight each other anytime.  But I think for many, they just want to pwn someone, the easier they can pwn them the better.  Going to Fel is the same as consenting to PVP isn't it?  So, all those who want to be prey can volunteer to do so in Fel.  If you have a lack of targets, that is your problem  Don't make someone be prey for you simply because that is what you like

Exactly.  

Yep that sums it up.

Sliss

The taming update has drastically increased the demand for power scrolls while the supply remained locked down by PvPers, as it has been for years. This pretty much killed off much of the good that the taming update brought. Just under a year ago in a similar discussion, PvPers were all saying that the prices will drop. And here we are, the prices hardly budged.
Having to spend 100+ million to scroll a pet is obscene and drastically decreases available content. Tamers quit taming because they can't afford it. And when they quit taming, they start looking for entertainment outside of UO. And just wait till all these returning players that are coming off ot EJ discover how much it will cost to scroll their characters. That will sure help retention.
The situation where a tiny minority has a monopoly on a vital resource is horrible for the population of this game and needs to be fixed. The easiest way is to make Power Scrolls available in Trammel. 

Mervyn

Tamers quit taming because they can’t afford it? 

When I’m not killing blues, I play a tamer and although I have 120 powerscrolls and enough gold to 120 all of my pets, I don’t because I don’t need to. I just 110 or 115 them (for free) and sell the 120s to those vain enough to buy.

Sliss

Mervyn said:

Tamers quit taming because they can’t afford it? 

When I’m not killing blues, I play a tamer and although I have 120 powerscrolls and enough gold to 120 all of my pets, I don’t because I don’t need to. I just 110 or 115 them (for free) and sell the 120s to those vain enough to buy.

You don't need to. Other's do. Many tamers' gameplay consists of trying to put together a best pet for whatever task is required. This occupies a lot of tamers' time. I assume, this is the ultimate goal behind every publish - to occupy players' time. Are 115s good enough? Yes. But then there is no reason to tame other pets to try to improve this. You might as well play with your old GDs, because it's also good enough. And people stop taming, and potentially playing.

Kyronix

Lord_Frodo said:

@ Kyronix @ Mesanna has this ever been discussed?  Is this something that you would be open to discussing?  It gives the ability to add content anywhere in UO without trying to appease any special group or offend any special group.  Everybody would have access to everything and be able to play UO as they wish.

Just so I'm understanding correctly - your suggestion is to remove Felucca as a rulset from all shards (except Siege & Mugen). Everyone is then presented with an opt-in for open PvP across all facets?

 This is basically how VvV works, We were apprehensive about allowing VvV in Trammel-rulsesets and ultimately decided against it after weighing the pros and cons. Your suggestion presents a similar, if not more expansive, list of concerns that make this type of change very unlikely.  I do however appreciate your contribution and furthering of the discussion!  That's what forums are for!

Mervyn

I really don't know why people complain about powerscrolls, it literally takes no time to get them, viddy:
http://sendvid.com/fh28txso

Tim

Mervyn said:

I really don't know why people complain about powerscrolls, it literally takes no time to get them, viddy:
http://sendvid.com/fh28txso

Then why do you and others panic at the suggestion they be made available off of Fel?

Syncros

Kyronix said:

Just so I'm understanding correctly - your suggestion is to remove Felucca as a rulset from all shards (except Siege & Mugen). Everyone is then presented with an opt-in for open PvP across all facets? 

 This is basically how VvV works, We were apprehensive about allowing VvV in Trammel-rulsesets and ultimately decided against it after weighing the pros and cons. Your suggestion presents a similar, if not more expansive, list of concerns that make this type of change very unlikely.  I do however appreciate your contribution and furthering of the discussion!  That's what forums are for!

Limiting VvV to Felucca is a mistake, especially for those that want to PvP.  If the Major towns or even all Trammel ruleset towns were made a no pvp zone then there would be no issue,  Just make it so players cant heal/res VvV in Tram rulesets.  

Mervyn

Tim said:

Mervyn said:

I really don't know why people complain about powerscrolls, it literally takes no time to get them, viddy:
http://sendvid.com/fh28txso

Then why do you and others panic at the suggestion they be made available off of Fel?

Because 1, the powerscrolls would be worthless, not even worth the 2 mins it takes to get them, and 2, nobody would then ever come to fel. It's the whole risk/reward.

Sliss

Mervyn said:

Tim said:

Mervyn said:

I really don't know why people complain about powerscrolls, it literally takes no time to get them, viddy:
http://sendvid.com/fh28txso

Then why do you and others panic at the suggestion they be made available off of Fel?

Because 1, the powerscrolls would be worthless, not even worth the 2 mins it takes to get them, and 2, nobody would then ever come to fel. It's the whole risk/reward.

That's funny. Shadowguard is not in Fel and yet, cameos are pretty expensive. Why would scrolls be any different? 
And I thought the PvPers PvPed because they love PvP so much. That it has nothing to do with gold they are raking in from the PS monopoly. An yet, you are saying that Fel would be dead without powerscrolls? In that case, maybe it should be dead.

Mervyn

I don’t pvp because I love pvp. I like playing the game as a whole and pvp is the best part of that. 
But men don’t get into fights in bars for no reason, there’s normally a girl involved. 

See how many people do shadowguard if you got no loot, no gold, and no drops at the end. 

Sliss

Mervyn said:

I don’t pvp because I love pvp. I like playing the game as a whole and pvp is the best part of that. 
But men don’t get into fights in bars for no reason, there’s normally a girl involved. 

See how many people do shadowguard if you got no loot, no gold, and no drops at the end. 

I take it your statement about PSs becoming worthless if they are introduced in Trammel is off the table?

So you are saying that people PvP just for Powerscrolls, not for PvP itself. did I get that right? In that case, you should lose nothing if you could get powerscrolls without PvP.

drcossack

Tim said:

Mervyn said:

I really don't know why people complain about powerscrolls, it literally takes no time to get them, viddy:
http://sendvid.com/fh28txso

Then why do you and others panic at the suggestion they be made available off of Fel?

because it's just another addition of exclusive content in Trammel, which, quite frankly, already has enough content.  Why remove the ONLY worthwhile pvm-involved content Fel has going for it?  To appease a vocal group of pvm'ers who want the game to cater to them even more?  You guys already have ENOUGH content: 6 land masses, several dungeons, several bosses, etc.  Fel has received practically nothing since Publish 16.  Publish 100 is coming up.

I play everywhere, including Fel, because I want to experience the entirety of the game.  But enough's enough.  It's beyond time for Fel to get something new.  It's been about 16 years since we got anything.

Bilbo

Isn't it funny how all these "PvPers" say they love to PvP but they need PSs in order to do it, now why is that.

drcossack

Bilbo said:

Isn't it funny how all these "PvPers" say they love to PvP but they need PSs in order to do it, now why is that.

Aww, another misinformed pvm'er, as usual.  Isn't it funny how pvp'ers will fight in the following:

1) Towns (on occasion)

2) Open field areas like yew gate

3) Spawns

But you seem to think we ONLY fight over PS's.  Do you really think we NEED scrolls to fight over?  We don't.  This has been established ad nauseum.  But don't delude yourself into thinking that doesn't mean we WILL fight over them if the opportunity presents itself.  Because we will...and have been doing so for well over a decade.

Let me turn it back on you for a minute.  Isn't it funny how all these PvM'ers, who, by their own admission, DO NOT pvp (or go to Fel at all) think they have the right to dictate what should go on there?  Or presume to tell us what the mindset of a pvp'er is?  The pvp'ers don't go into pvm or other non-pvp threads and try to change things to their liking.  Why do you feel the need to do that to us?

CovenantX

Sliss said:

So you are saying that people PvP just for Powerscrolls, not for PvP itself. did I get that right? In that case, you should lose nothing if you could get powerscrolls without PvP.

  They Pvp for pvp...  Powerscrolls are to help entice pvp, outside of Yew Gate... I'm surprised you hadn't picked that up yet, with all these pointless discussions you've been commenting on.

The more you know.

Bilbo

drcossack said:

Bilbo said:

Isn't it funny how all these "PvPers" say they love to PvP but they need PSs in order to do it, now why is that.

Aww, another misinformed pvm'er, as usual.  Isn't it funny how pvp'ers will fight in the following:

1) Towns (on occasion)

2) Open field areas like yew gate

3) Spawns

But you seem to think we ONLY fight over PS's.  Do you really think we NEED scrolls to fight over?  We don't.  This has been established ad nauseum.  But don't delude yourself into thinking that doesn't mean we WILL fight over them if the opportunity presents itself.  Because we will...and have been doing so for well over a decade.

Let me turn it back on you for a minute.  Isn't it funny how all these PvM'ers, who, by their own admission, DO NOT pvp (or go to Fel at all) think they have the right to dictate what should go on there?  Or presume to tell us what the mindset of a pvp'er is?  The pvp'ers don't go into pvm or other non-pvp threads and try to change things to their liking.  Why do you feel the need to do that to us?

LMAO You won't even admit the truth and as you say PSs are don't tied into PvP then why do all you PvPers keep saying without them PvP would die.  You can scream the sky isn't blue but we all know the truth and it is so funny listening to all the PvPers trying to tell us it isn't so.  Keep posting because it is good to get a good laugh now and then.  You guys are starting to sound like my grandkids when they get caught in the act of doing something wrong.  The only way PvP still exists is because PSs, you have to have a lure to do something in the game you swear is so much fun, PRICELESS.

drcossack

Bilbo said:

LMAO You won't even admit the truth and as you say PSs are don't tied into PvP then why do all you PvPers keep saying without them PvP would die.  You can scream the sky isn't blue but we all know the truth and it is so funny listening to all the PvPers trying to tell us it isn't so.  Keep posting because it is good to get a good laugh now and then.  You guys are starting to sound like my grandkids when they get caught in the act of doing something wrong.  The only way PvP still exists is because PSs, you have to have a lure to do something in the game you swear is so much fun, PRICELESS.

What truth won't I admit?  I would think my logic is pretty easy to understand.  You just choose not to so you can continue trolling.  We're done here.

Bilbo

drcossack said:

Bilbo said:

LMAO You won't even admit the truth and as you say PSs are don't tied into PvP then why do all you PvPers keep saying without them PvP would die.  You can scream the sky isn't blue but we all know the truth and it is so funny listening to all the PvPers trying to tell us it isn't so.  Keep posting because it is good to get a good laugh now and then.  You guys are starting to sound like my grandkids when they get caught in the act of doing something wrong.  The only way PvP still exists is because PSs, you have to have a lure to do something in the game you swear is so much fun, PRICELESS.

What truth won't I admit?  I would think my logic is pretty easy to understand.  You just choose not to so you can continue trolling.  We're done here.

Logic now that is funny but I guess in your UO it is the truth.  PvP is dead without lures, that is a fact.  The only PvP you have is raiding spawns, towns and yew gate what once in a blue moon but you go ahead and keep believing while the rest of us know the real truth and not this make believe stuff you come up with and oh by the way if PvP was so great what happened to the Arena System what not enough lures there to get the so called PvPers to come.  If you truely believed PvP was so great then it would not matter if UO had a switch to consent to PvP anywhere in UO but we all know that what maybe the 6 people here with their long winded logic posts would be the only ones to set it to on.  Why is SP not over run with all you hard core PvPers oh that is right you need you insurance and your ubber gear to fight PvMers.

drcossack

Bilbo said:

Logic now that is funny but I guess in your UO it is the truth.  PvP is dead without lures, that is a fact.  The only PvP you have is raiding spawns, towns and yew gate what once in a blue moon but you go ahead and keep believing while the rest of us know the real truth and not this make believe stuff you come up with and oh by the way if PvP was so great what happened to the Arena System what not enough lures there to get the so called PvPers to come.  If you truely believed PvP was so great then it would not matter if UO had a switch to consent to PvP anywhere in UO but we all know that what maybe the 6 people here with their long winded logic posts would be the only ones to set it to on.  Why is SP not over run with all you hard core PvPers oh that is right you need you insurance and your ubber gear to fight PvMers.

Keep reaching.  My gear is FAR from uber.  In fact, by the standards of today's gear, it's pretty much low-tier.  I went for the very basics on my most played pvp mages, since I don't need much else: LRC, LMC, DCI, 2/6, EP, full 70's and SDI.  There is some stat increase due to me needing it (Parry Mage), but other than that both my suits are fairly cheap - the most expensive item on my primary pvp suit is the Slither.

As I've said before, I personally do not like to play at Yew Gate, due to the nature of the pvp there.  Random blues (and now OJ's) ganking you when you're fighting someone else never appealed to me, even back in the day.

Why do you need to bring up Siege?  Most pvp'ers don't go there because of the 1 character per account limit.  I have no interest in such an artificial barrier on playing, nor do I have any desire to buy 59237592374923 soulstones just to play over there.

The Arena system?  Who honestly cares?  Dueling has been dead for years, due to Casting Focus and other RNG nonsense, like Poison auto-cures.  I used to LOVE doing it on Wrong Roof back in 2005/2006.  If I wasn't fighting at a spawn, I was often on Wrong Roof either watching others go at it, and I would even duel these guys myself.

Do you know WHY I prefer spawn fighting over yew gate?  The reason is simple: Being able to work as a team with your guildmates.  Yeah, you can do that anywhere, obviously, but I can count on one hand the # of times I can say that I've had fun fighting at Yew Gate.  I get much more enjoyment out of spawn fighting...and it's not (nor has it ever been) because of the scrolls.

Kyronix has already said an on/off switch isn't going to happen in Trammel...and he did it in this thread, on this very page.  Give it up, because your dream of non-consensual pvp being removed from the game is never going to happen.

Mervyn

Maybe when the fel shard goes live, they should also make a trammel only shard, then we can see which one lures in more new players. 

I’d be fine if they made a non transferable trammel shard. To sandbox in some of the above players. Although I’m not sure how much they would enjoy playing a game where every item is completely worthless,  but render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.

Mervyn

Many guilds do despise not for powerscrolls, they do it for action, they want to get raided. People pop harrowers not because they want the stat scrolls, people pop a harrower because “let the games begin” 

I remember not long ago someone popped a harrower and it was in fire, our guild grouped up and went to fire the back entrance. (Cos the front door was heavily fielded) We went to go through dragon turtle fel to the teleporter to take us to the desert. And when we were passing through it, the dragon turtle was actually spawned (nobody was doing it, they had popped the boss and couldn’t kill the boss so left it) so there we were 8 or so of us, free dragon turtle boss which in fel drops legendaries. And we all ran past it cos we wanted to go for the fight. And we didn’t even win the harrower. 
(I might even have a video, I’ll have a browse later)

Tim

Mervyn said:

Maybe when the fel shard goes live, they should also make a trammel only shard, then we can see which one lures in more new players. 

I’d be fine if they made a non transferable trammel shard. To sandbox in some of the above players. Although I’m not sure how much they would enjoy playing a game where every item is completely worthless,  but render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.

Trammel only shard with access to PS I'm there. If only so I don't have to see the juvenile PVP trash talk on general chat.

As for which one ends up with more players I've pointed out before content goes to were BS knows the players are.

PS we really need to come up with a new short hand for Broad Sword. BS just seems wrong 

drcossack

Tim said:

As for which one ends up with more players I've pointed out before content goes to were BS knows the players are.

I can cover every pixel of the Trammel ruleset (other than instanced bosses) and I can tell you exactly where I'll find players.  For all of the content they've been given, the Trammel players don't even do 5% of it.

I can do the same at a few places in Fel, and I will find more players there.

Tim

drcossack said:

Tim said:

As for which one ends up with more players I've pointed out before content goes to were BS knows the players are.

I can cover every pixel of the Trammel ruleset (other than instanced bosses) and I can tell you exactly where I'll find players.  For all of the content they've been given, the Trammel players don't even do 5% of it.

I can do the same at a few places in Fel, and I will find more players there.

More content = more spread out.
After 18 years I probably have only done 60% of the content the rest I haven't found or doesn't interest me. I don't know a player who doesn't have his/her preferred aria were they can usually be found.

Do you regularly go do the quests in new Haven? Almost all the content for New players is in Trammel. If you're playing Fel for PVP you go to were you know the other PVPs are. (or can find some PVMer victim)

BS know what servers players are spending their time on.

drcossack

Tim said:

More content = more spread out.
After 18 years I probably have only done 60% of the content the rest I haven't found or doesn't interest me. I don't know a player who doesn't have his/her preferred aria were they can usually be found.

Do you regularly go do the quests in new Haven? Almost all the content for New players is in Trammel. If you're playing Fel for PVP you go to were you know the other PVPs are. (or can find some PVMer victim)

BS know what servers players are spending their time on.

On my main shard, it's literally all tamers.  You find people at Cus, Zippy/the pit war, Navrey, and the Crazed Mage in Shame.  Occasionally I've seen people at Shadowguard.  When they do Doom, it's a giant mess; Zippy is the same thing.  For both encounters, they absolutely refuse to do things the simplest way, because they think the game is Tamers Online.

I've done pretty much everything in this game, and while Tram is more spread out, there are still only a few places worth going to.  Perhaps it's because I don't check these spots often enough, but I never see anyone at any of them when I do go there.

At the same time, I can check the places in Fel that aren't hotspots/pvp-oriented and not see anyone.  I have in the past, but I know two of them (brothers) don't play anymore (they do keep their accounts active afaik, but I haven't seen them ingame in over a year.)  But the fact remains that those few places in Fel (Yew gate and the various champ spawns) generate more activity than pretty much everything (that isn't Shadowguard) in the Tram ruleset.

Mervyn

Tim said:

Mervyn said:

Maybe when the fel shard goes live, they should also make a trammel only shard, then we can see which one lures in more new players. 

I’d be fine if they made a non transferable trammel shard. To sandbox in some of the above players. Although I’m not sure how much they would enjoy playing a game where every item is completely worthless,  but render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.

Trammel only shard with access to PS I'm there. If only so I don't have to see the juvenile PVP trash talk on general chat.

I think you’d be pretty annoyed if you spent 20 mins plus doing a champ and someone turned up on 2 accounts and took 4 out of the 6 scrolls by hitting the boss. Plus all items and scrolls would be worth very little, so you’d feel very little reward. Mind you, on Europa, people do the trammel champs for “fun”, whatever floats your boat.