What Is The Real World Official Stance On Using Scripts?

I am sincere in that I am lacking understanding on what and why scripting is now being allowed as long as it’s attended scripting. I’m not wanting this to be a ‘everyone scripts and no one cares, so what’, scripting is okay, scripting isn’t okay thread. I’m hoping for no opinions, just seeking clarification and what the facts are.

My understanding has always been that using 3rd party scripts is illegal regardless of being attended or unattended. My understanding is that any modification to the program is illegal. The script programs that do effect the program that, as far as I know, have been ‘approved and okayed’ by the Devs. are UO Assist, UO Tamer and UO Rudder.

I’m now seeing unmoderated threads on how to write scripts, modify scripts that manage actions, actions that non-scripters can’t fairly compete with. I’m seriously confused on why this is being allowed. Pincos is the only program that is allowed to insert additional coding into the program and it’s just for the EC.  What was Dev’s stated reason(s) for allowing this? From the thread that I see on this forum players are now being allowed to modify Pincos? This doesn’t violate rules?

I’ve been a good rule follower for almost 25 years and I’m seriously starting to wonder why I should. I play this game to have fun, make fun for others and relax. I don’t sweat the small stuff. The game is far from perfect and we all can find something to complain about but I think, like most players, I just let go of those things that tend to bug us and just enjoy the game as is.

That being said, when I see blatant scripting such as almost 100,000 trade missions being done in just a couple months on a small shard, and see how characters ‘move magically’, ‘buy from NPCs magically’, know it’s being reported and nothing happens I start to wonder. Same thing with egg gathering. In the time I try to pick up an egg at my feet someone recalls in outside, magically appears where the egg is, grab it, magically hops over to where the other egg is, grabs that and recalls to the next spot to do the same. The average player just can’t compete with the apparent rampant scripting fairly.

And here I sit, wondering why am I being a good rule follower, thinking I shouldn’t use scripts because it’s against the rules.  My personal ethics don’t allow me to play a game where I feel like I have to have an unfair advantage over my fellow players. In my simple mind it’s either we legally allow scripts or don’t. If it’s legally allowed then all scripts should be made available to all players and we should have a designated forum where they can be posted.

So my long winded questions is what is the real world official stance on attended scripting?

Thanks from a player that’s feeling lost on this issue.

Respectfully,

AW


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Comments

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,312
    edited June 9
    No answers 4 years ago.
    Revisited 3rd Party Programs List ? - Ultima Online Forums (uo.com)

    There is no problem at all, the fans will help to answer.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,116Moderator
    As far as I am aware no illicit scripts are shown on this forum, only edits to EC Lua files, which is allowed, anyone playing EC with the right skills can create a player written UI. That's how EC is designed. If I have missed a script that does not conform to this, please send me the link so that I can check.

     Pinco's is merely a player written UI - not different to any other, except others chose to use his rather than write their own.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,026
    edited June 9
    I agree. I would also like to know what is the official stance in regards to Ultima Online and scripting using unauthorized Third Party software.

    Because, my understanding is that the TOS does not allow this and yet, even from posts on these forums, fellow players keep talking of players scripting, multi-clienting/multi-boxing and this keeps going on and on and on.
  • JackFlashUkJackFlashUk Posts: 535
    popps said:
    I agree. I would also like to know what is the official stance in regards to Ultima Online and scripting using unauthorized Third Party software.

    Because, my understanding is that the TOS does not allow this and yet, even from posts on these forums, fellow players keep talking of players scripting, multi-clienting/multi-boxing and this keeps going on and on and on.
    So before you start throwing grenades Popps what is YOUR understanding of the points you raise above ie multi client and multi boxing 
  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,116Moderator
    I have taken a screen print of one of the documents that can be found in
    "C:\Program Files (x86)\Electronic Arts\Ultima Online Enhanced\UserInterface\Custom_UI_Documentation.zip"
    Perhaps that will help clarify the situation as it pertains to the Enhanced client.


  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,012
    The developers have to communicate....
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • JepethJepeth Posts: 378
    edited June 9
    There have been two statements in recent Meet and Greets and one solid statement during the first livestream.

    From Baja, April 28, 2021 (slightly edited to remove extraneous stuff)

    [Bobby]: and with the rise of higher quality third party clients, will you begin policing the use of them?

    [Bobby]: Client such as BLANK, BLANKBLANK, BLANKBLANKBLANK

    [Kyronix ]: As far as your CS & client related issues that’s a support concern that we will bring up with Mesanna and she’ll address it
    [Kyronix ]: Thank you for the inquiries
    [Kyronix ]: *smiles*
    [Bobby]: I don’t have any client issues. I’m just curious if you will begin policing third party clients is all
    [Kyronix ]: Aye, those client issues
    [Bobby]: I’m not certain you understood my question, but okay
    [Bobby]: Thanks!
    [Kyronix ]: I did

    From Mizhou, March 8, 2021

    EM Asiantam: there are no guidance in UO which tools are legal or not
    EM Asiantam: third party tool I mean
    Mesanna: you mean 3rd party programs
    Mesanna: such as UOA is legal
    EM Asiantam: right
    EM Asiantam: UOA
    Mesanna: It is a short list right now but we will try to put up a page defining these
    EM Asiantam: how about BLANK by BLANK
    Mesanna: have not looked at it so I can not answer
    Pitbull: thank you

    From the first New Legacy Announcement Livestream at about 1 hour, 11 minutes, 32 seconds on September 23rd, 2020:
    Mesanna: "Can you talk about the plans to address the third party programs being blocked from the new shard?" No, we can't talk about something we really haven't investigated or have the direction to tell you where we're going. So, we are aware of it, we don't like it, we're gonna do what we can to make everything fair. We wish we could just snap our fingers and the game would be equal and no one would cheat. But it's kind of like the old saying, "the one with the most toys win," and some people feel like they have to cheat to get the toys, unfortunately. 

    Personally, I think this issue goes beyond an off-the-cuff answer or a post-in-haste here on the forum. It's obvious anti-scripting/anti-cheating notions are being built into the design of recent events. We may all have to be content with the understanding that this is their final answer on this. That only meaningful things they can do is design around it. 

    I think it's easy for us all to say they need to be heavy-handed on this problem, and perhaps they do, but I'm not sure I want to stick around to see what those heavy-handed solutions are. Is that sunsetting the classic client? Is that installing Punkbuster or some sort of contemporary data-integrity program? Is it (god help us) moving the game to the Origin Launcher?

    If there is to be a frank discussion about this issue that finds the equitable solution Mesanna speaks about, I'd prefer it to include notions about how other MMOs handle third-party programs. We certainly aren't the only ones who struggle with this problem.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 1,441
    edited June 9
    deleted
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,012
    Yoshi said:
    "I am 100% sure it is illegal to use third party clients.

     In the alliance i am in today 259 members in discord, of which roughly 9 using official clients. none have ever been banned or had any action taken against them or given any warning for using non official client.

    But just to stress it is illegal"
    Boy way to sell out the crew ...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,118
    edited June 9
    Didn't Bonnie say at a M&G that if you were there then everything was OK or something like that.  My understanding is that she hates AFK and Multiboxing and everything else she just looks the other way.

    @AmberWitch I am with you 100% but you know that the older we get the harder it is to play for long periods of time before we physically start to hurt.  Crafting/BODs upgrade was a god send, to much clicking hurts and yes for 25 years I have also followed the rules and every day I ask my self why when UO does not enforce their own rules.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 1,441
    " warning Stop referencing the unofficial clients in your posts. Failure to do so will lead to a suspension of your posting ability."
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • AmberWitchAmberWitch Posts: 388
    edited June 9
    Mariah said:
    As far as I am aware no illicit scripts are shown on this forum, only edits to EC Lua files, which is allowed, anyone playing EC with the right skills can create a player written UI. That's how EC is designed. If I have missed a script that does not conform to this, please send me the link so that I can check.

     Pinco's is merely a player written UI - not different to any other, except others chose to use his rather than write their own.
    Hi Mariah,
    I just want to clarify that I wasn't speaking negatively of your moderation of the thread. In re-reading it I could see where that could be interpreted as such. I have great respect for you and how well you do what you do. I just don't have the foggiest idea when/how/if scripts can be used legally and in my mind any discussion on writing/modifying scripts should not be allowed. My ignorance is loud and clear. 
    I could I would remove that offending word but the time period for editing one's own post is past.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,177
    I agree with you @AmberWitch as I'm in the same boat. I play CC and only use UOA for fear that the first time I log into some 3rd party client, a GM would show up and ban me shortly after (I've felt that way for the past 10-15 years or so since I saw people scripting). I think that 10+ years ago this might have happened but things seem much more lenient these days with the only real "no-no" being macroing/scripting unattended.

    I think it was posted somewhere (can't remember where though) that when Mesanna was asked about cheating; her response was something to the effect of "do whatever it takes to win". I've always said that I felt like they sort of started to enable scripting with the release of EC because the macro files are just so advanced it gives players all the tags they need to modify the script into something maybe not intended.

    My thought is that as long as you aren't super abusive with a script (ie running 10 accounts at once to plow through everything in Destard), the GMs probably won't bother you.
  • magrodnyc2magrodnyc2 Posts: 21
    Lot of people use EaXX
    Lot of people use SteXXX
    Lot of people use RaXXXX
    and now everyone that I know moved to ORXXXX

    and I know a LOT of people with custom Pincos mods and Eula scripts modifications that does everything ALL other programs does and faster.

    I mean, if you look at the Redit from GM River, they all use as well, They cant just say anything or will never say anything because liability , if they support 3rd party software's someone will have to pay someone , so , I dont see anything happened.

    just like they say, just do whatever you feel like as long as you not AFK.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,175
    My keyboard can do macros. I can tell it to press a key every x seconds so it repeats an EC macro. That repeats 10x. 

    My keyboard can do lots more than that, but I have enough trouble attacking the correct mob to use any more stuff. 

    UO or any game can not tell what is pushing the buttons.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 379
    I imagine it wouldn't be rocket science for the UO server to detect "unauthorized" clients interacting with it.  It's then a policy decision what to do about accounts where this is detected..

    A google search might turn up scripts that sound like they fully automate the egg collecting process, turn in, reward collection, etc.

    Of course, there's the likely EJ account mis-use angle to consider.

    Put some systemic curbs on EJ accounts:
    1. EJ accounts can no longer be in Felucca.
    2. EJ accounts cannot pickup event items like eggs.  (good suggestion from somebody else).
    3. EJ accounts cannot get drops during events.

  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,118
    UO/BS/EA can not afford to ban accounts that use 3rd party programs.  Am I saying to use them, NO but look at the facts, can we afford to lose that many accounts and keep UO/DAoC/BS in business.  EA will just shit it all down.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,175
    UO/BS/EA can not afford to ban accounts that use 3rd party programs.  Am I saying to use them, NO but look at the facts, can we afford to lose that many accounts and keep UO/DAoC/BS in business.  EA will just shit it all down.
    Exactly how would EA know if I am pushing a button or a macro is "pushing" it.  They only have spam detection if you do commands too fast.  Say something then press cntr Q real fast over and over and you will see that.

    The game has no way to tell how the signal was sent to them, by a player or a macro.  Players use macros all the time. EC client has delays that you can put in macros.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,175
    edited June 10
    All of this will come up again when NL is out and players have all 100 skills in a few hours.  Some will do it by power gaming, some will do it with macros. A certain old guy will come to the forum exclaiming he has 50 wrestling but he hears of players having GM in all the melee skills already.

    Then the cheater wagon will pull up and blame cheating and EJ accounts. Ill take 100k NL gold when that prediction comes true.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,312
    edited June 10
    keven2002 said:
    I agree with you @ AmberWitch as I'm in the same boat. I play CC and only use UOA for fear that the first time I log into some 3rd party client, a GM would show up and ban me shortly after (I've felt that way for the past 10-15 years or so since I saw people scripting). I think that 10+ years ago this might have happened but things seem much more lenient these days with the only real "no-no" being macroing/scripting unattended.

    I think it was posted somewhere (can't remember where though) that when Mesanna was asked about cheating; her response was something to the effect of "do whatever it takes to win". I've always said that I felt like they sort of started to enable scripting with the release of EC because the macro files are just so advanced it gives players all the tags they need to modify the script into something maybe not intended.

    My thought is that as long as you aren't super abusive with a script (ie running 10 accounts at once to plow through everything in Destard), the GMs probably won't bother you.
    The macro in EC is better than CC but it's hardly near other 3rd party CC. 

    CC 3rd party can register location on map or screen by coordinates so can program them to move between any location u pick. 

    Another powerful feature is the ability tp record actions and without knowledge of the script and then just repeat them. 

    EC scripts is far less powerful but even if it's possible we need to know how to script. The CC 3rd party just let you "Record" actions. It's like the record macro function is Microsoft office so you don't even need to write the script.

    For some advance CC scripts programs there is a wiki and ready made scripts which anyone can download and modify to suit one's need. EC doesn't have that, it's either Pinco or good luck asking someone to fix an UI issue here.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,118
    Pawain said:
    UO/BS/EA can not afford to ban accounts that use 3rd party programs.  Am I saying to use them, NO but look at the facts, can we afford to lose that many accounts and keep UO/DAoC/BS in business.  EA will just shit it all down.
    Exactly how would EA know if I am pushing a button or a macro is "pushing" it.  They only have spam detection if you do commands too fast.  Say something then press cntr Q real fast over and over and you will see that.

    The game has no way to tell how the signal was sent to them, by a player or a macro.  Players use macros all the time. EC client has delays that you can put in macros.
    Do you know what a #rd party program is, probably not as you used the EC as an example.  LMAO
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,175
    edited June 10
    Pawain said:
    UO/BS/EA can not afford to ban accounts that use 3rd party programs.  Am I saying to use them, NO but look at the facts, can we afford to lose that many accounts and keep UO/DAoC/BS in business.  EA will just shit it all down.
    Exactly how would EA know if I am pushing a button or a macro is "pushing" it.  They only have spam detection if you do commands too fast.  Say something then press cntr Q real fast over and over and you will see that.

    The game has no way to tell how the signal was sent to them, by a player or a macro.  Players use macros all the time. EC client has delays that you can put in macros.
    Do you know what a #rd party program is, probably not as you used the EC as an example.  LMAO
    Do you think UO knows what program "pushed" the X button?  It does not.  LMAO back at you.

    UIs just give the program commands it knows, the program does not care where it came from.

    All the 3rd party programs simulate EC or CC.  They just have better macros.
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,118
    Hell yes UO knows, they just choose to look the other way.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,175
    Hell yes UO knows, they just choose to look the other way.
    Well @Yoshi can settle this.  Do your friends need to have either CC or EC on their computer to use the O 3rd party program.
  • AmberWitchAmberWitch Posts: 388
    edited June 10
    This is getting off track. Simply looking for a truthful answer as to whether or not attended scripting in now legal and allowed.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,175
    edited June 10
    This is getting off track. Simply looking for a truthful answer as to whether or not attended scripting in now legal and allowed.
    You need to define scripting.  IMO these EC macros they are showing us how to make is scripting.

    Most things are compared to me using CC only.

    I really do not think anyone from UO is going to answer your question.

    If you are attended and doing something you can do with just EC or CC then it must be ok.  If it is not, then you will just get a warning if using a paid account.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,312
    This is getting off track. Simply looking for a truthful answer as to whether or not attended scripting in now legal and allowed.
    Scripting is simply automation, or macros like those in Microsoft. So far I believe they are only against:

    1) AFK macroing (including scripts)
    2) Multi boxing (not multi client)
    3) Using impassable objects to block locations

    How we macro, using 3rd party macro, keyboard, or scripts - can be observed but it may not always be obvious which is used. But the advanced CC scripts can do alot more.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,012
    The developers need to communicate @Mesanna ;
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 379
    edited June 10
    I imagine it wouldn't be rocket science for the UO server to detect "unauthorized" clients interacting with it.  It's then a policy decision what to do about accounts where this is detected..

    A google search might turn up scripts that sound like they fully automate the egg collecting process, turn in, reward collection, etc.

    Of course, there's the likely EJ account mis-use angle to consider.

    Put some systemic curbs on EJ accounts:
    1. EJ accounts can no longer be in Felucca.
    2. EJ accounts cannot pickup event items like eggs.  (good suggestion from somebody else).
    3. EJ accounts cannot get drops during events.

    Pawain said:
    This is getting off track. Simply looking for a truthful answer as to whether or not attended scripting in now legal and allowed.
    You need to define scripting.  IMO these EC macros they are showing us how to make is scripting.

    Most things are compared to me using CC only.

    I really do not think anyone from UO is going to answer your question.

    If you are attended and doing something you can do with just EC or CC then it must be ok.  If it is not, then you will just get a warning if using a paid account.

    Re-read what I posted above. 

    Do a google search.

    Recalling around to every location in a runebook, walking to any eggs on screen, picking up eggs, insuring the eggs in the backpack, recalling to a crystal ball that then takes you outside destard (and cannot be blocked), turning in marked quest items, claiming rewards, using an EJ account with basically zero skills and zero risk, hours on end, triggered by a single click ...  This should sound pretty familiar to those on several shards.

    That's a little different than holding down CTRL-SHIFT in EC, with an EC tweak posted in this forum, to pickup the egg that is nearby.

    I imagine most of this (and related issues) can be mitigated by curbing EJ account usage.

    One can study up on client/server models to understand how it may be possible to detect "unauthorized" clients.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,175
    edited June 10
    ForeverFun said:
    One can study up on client/server models to understand how it may be possible to detect "unauthorized" clients.

    Do that, email the results to Mesanna and save UO.
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