Is too much luck a bad thing??

Grimbeard · January 2023

My treasure hunter a base 3650 (plus 1k for the fel bonus) if it's real doing hoard and trove it seems like way too much stuff is cursed

popps · January 2023

Grimbeard said:

My treasure hunter a base 3650 (plus 1k for the fel bonus) if it's real doing hoard and trove it seems like way too much stuff is cursed

Your 3,650 Luck is with the Statue (1 hour) or without the statue ?

If it is without the Statue, may I ask what items are you useing to get it that high ?

Grimbeard · January 2023

popps said:

Grimbeard said:

My treasure hunter a base 3650 (plus 1k for the fel bonus) if it's real doing hoard and trove it seems like way too much stuff is cursed

Your 3,650 Luck is with the Statue (1 hour) or without the statue ?

If it is without the Statue, may I ask what items are you useing to get it that high ?with statue 2600ish without

keven2002 · January 2023

Grimbeard said:

My treasure hunter a base 3650 (plus 1k for the fel bonus) if it's real doing hoard and trove it seems like way too much stuff is cursed

I have not confirmed my theory but generally speaking; yes I would agree that having max luck isn't always a good thing. I have had similar experiences as you with having almost 5k luck (almost 4k with suit/statue + 1k fel bonus) that there seems to be more cursed/antique items in hoard/trove maps and not really a ton of legendary items (the legendary items that do spawn aren't ever max property/intensity either).

My assumption (can't really confirm without a Dev) is that treasure chests are on a loot table that isn't at the top (ie Shadowguard/Scalis/UW level loot table). My thought is that if you wear max luck for mobs that are not top level loot table then having high luck can indeed "hurt" your loot because certain mobs just won't drop max intensity properties so when it "rolls" based on your luck and hits a higher intensity it hits the loot table ceiling and ultimately puts a negative property on it to make it "more intense".

Like I said, it's very convoluted and almost impossible to confirm without a Dev chiming in.

popps · January 2023

keven2002 said:

Grimbeard said:

My treasure hunter a base 3650 (plus 1k for the fel bonus) if it's real doing hoard and trove it seems like way too much stuff is cursed

I have not confirmed my theory but generally speaking; yes I would agree that having max luck isn't always a good thing. I have had similar experiences as you with having almost 5k luck (almost 4k with suit/statue + 1k fel bonus) that there seems to be more cursed/antique items in hoard/trove maps and not really a ton of legendary items (the legendary items that do spawn aren't ever max property/intensity either).

My assumption (can't really confirm without a Dev) is that treasure chests are on a loot table that isn't at the top (ie Shadowguard/Scalis/UW level loot table). My thought is that if you wear max luck for mobs that are not top level loot table then having high luck can indeed "hurt" your loot because certain mobs just won't drop max intensity properties so when it "rolls" based on your luck and hits a higher intensity it hits the loot table ceiling and ultimately puts a negative property on it to make it "more intense".

Like I said, it's very convoluted and almost impossible to confirm without a Dev chiming in.

I have heard the same "feeling" from also other players that high Luck actually backfires and gets one poorer loot, rather then better one....

Which is kinda weird, and, perhaps, worthy of being looked at, @Kyronix to find out what is in the code which makes higher Luck to backfire and provide worse Loot quality as, I understand, several UO players over time seem to have been experiencing ?

Victim_Of_Siege · January 2023

Well, it doesn't say "Good Luck" it just says "Luck". How do we know it isn't turning to "Bad Luck" after a point (as in going negative?)

keven2002 · January 2023

Victim_Of_Siege said:

Well, it doesn't say "Good Luck" it just says "Luck". How do we know it isn't turning to "Bad Luck" after a point (as in going negative?)

That's pretty much it. The best way to look at it would be comparing it to the reforging screen when you use extra charges for structural... it adds intensity to item but also adds brittle (but that's 100% chance each time). For loot it's a chance that luck will bump up intensity but also a 1-X% chance it also adds an undesirable property. A lot of people forget that Brittle is considered a "negative" property which is what 95% of legendary items are.

@popps - The only time I've seen max possible luck be "it can't hurt" is when doing the top tier bosses like Scalis/Roof/UW which I'm almost positive would be under the highest loot table. Outside of those type things, there has long been some sort of luck "sweet spot". Also keep in mind that it's not just negative properties that are added, but also extra undesired properties. Perfect example of this would be trying to farm jewelry with 10SSI & 35DI. Some people have multiples of these on their vendors which tells me there is something they are killing with X luck that gives them but I doubt it's max luck because when I've killed lower level things like dragons/etc with max luck; I end up getting a 10SSI/35DI piece but it also will have something like 15 SDI too... that's because the luck is too high and there was another roll made (due to luck) which added a third undesirable property (although still considered "clean").

@Grimbeard - There are many articles on the luck topic floating around. I know I've written up some of my own findings on those threads.

TimSt · January 2023

With 2300 luck almost everything I get from when doing trove maps in malas are not cursed legendaries. The rest are not cursed major artifacts.

Merus · January 2023

I think there is probably a distinction that needs to be made between:

Better = higher property weight
vs
More Usable = property combination + no negative properties

I believe higher luck generally makes the overall loot in chests better, but not always more usable, particularly for armor. Antique jewelry is generally acceptable, whereas an antique chest piece isn’t.

It would be nice if higher luck added a roll to remove a negative property after the roll to increase property weight… thus making it more likely to get a higher weight item without the associated negative.

Grimbeard · January 2023

Or sell a potion for removing cursed or other negative mods.

Skett · January 2023

Merlin · January 2023

My understanding has been that luck had diminishing returns somewhere in the range of 2000-2400 (confirm?).

Having said that, when you try to maximize luck on your suit, you inevitably give up other stats and mods that you could have used to be more durable to fight whatever mobs spawn after opening a chest. So the question to me is whether or not the opportunity cost of using crafting intensity for additional luck and its affect on loot outweighs the benefit you would get from having other mods available in your build to perform better in the field. If T-Chests with near max luck are producing too many items with negative properties, then I believe you have part of your answer.. the real challenge being determining the "sweet spot" for luck to receive the best rewards possible without the luck overkill that produces high intensity loot with negative mods.

As Keven noted, without dev confirmation, it's impossible to determine and you will get lots of different opinions. Only way to confirm is doing a large sample of chests with different luck values and trying to make sense out of where that 'sweet spot' is.

Grimbeard · January 2023

Merlin said:

My understanding has been that luck had diminishing returns somewhere in the range of 2000-2400 (confirm?).

Having said that, when you try to maximize luck on your suit, you inevitably give up other stats and mods that you could have used to be more durable to fight whatever mobs spawn after opening a chest. So the question to me is whether or not the opportunity cost of using crafting intensity for additional luck and its affect on loot outweighs the benefit you would get from having other mods available in your build to perform better in the field. If T-Chests with near max luck are producing too many items with negative properties, then I believe you have part of your answer.. the real challenge being determining the "sweet spot" for luck to receive the best rewards possible without the luck overkill that produces high intensity loot with negative mods.

As Keven noted, without dev confirmation, it's impossible to determine and you will get lots of different opinions. Only way to confirm is doing a large sample of chests with different luck values and trying to make sense out of where that 'sweet spot' is.

The most confusing thing is for me at least the sweet spot changes from character to character

Victim_Of_Siege · January 2023

Grimbeard said:

Merlin said:

My understanding has been that luck had diminishing returns somewhere in the range of 2000-2400 (confirm?).

Having said that, when you try to maximize luck on your suit, you inevitably give up other stats and mods that you could have used to be more durable to fight whatever mobs spawn after opening a chest. So the question to me is whether or not the opportunity cost of using crafting intensity for additional luck and its affect on loot outweighs the benefit you would get from having other mods available in your build to perform better in the field. If T-Chests with near max luck are producing too many items with negative properties, then I believe you have part of your answer.. the real challenge being determining the "sweet spot" for luck to receive the best rewards possible without the luck overkill that produces high intensity loot with negative mods.

As Keven noted, without dev confirmation, it's impossible to determine and you will get lots of different opinions. Only way to confirm is doing a large sample of chests with different luck values and trying to make sense out of where that 'sweet spot' is.

The most confusing thing is for me at least the sweet spot changes from character to character

Depends on the luck the character was rolled with upon creation. no confusion

keven2002 · January 2023

Grimbeard said:

Merlin said:

My understanding has been that luck had diminishing returns somewhere in the range of 2000-2400 (confirm?).

Having said that, when you try to maximize luck on your suit, you inevitably give up other stats and mods that you could have used to be more durable to fight whatever mobs spawn after opening a chest. So the question to me is whether or not the opportunity cost of using crafting intensity for additional luck and its affect on loot outweighs the benefit you would get from having other mods available in your build to perform better in the field. If T-Chests with near max luck are producing too many items with negative properties, then I believe you have part of your answer.. the real challenge being determining the "sweet spot" for luck to receive the best rewards possible without the luck overkill that produces high intensity loot with negative mods.

As Keven noted, without dev confirmation, it's impossible to determine and you will get lots of different opinions. Only way to confirm is doing a large sample of chests with different luck values and trying to make sense out of where that 'sweet spot' is.

The most confusing thing is for me at least the sweet spot changes from character to character

The trouble finding a sweet spot is likely because there are very few constants within UO (most things are heavily RNG based). I went down this rabbit hole a few years ago but luck impacts several things and on top of that there are a bunch of other variables that play a part so it's very hard to nail something down to an exact amount.

Quick synopsis of my findings:

Luck impacts several things which include number of items on the corpse / the number of properties on one (or more) item / the intensity of the properties
The mobs you kill (or chests you do) fall into a certain loot table and depending on what you kill; it will ultimately have a "max" rating (max properties / max intensity) depending where it falls in the loot table. Example: you will (probably) never loot a clean 10 SSI / 35 DI jewelry from a mongbat. Depending on where the mob falls on that table will determine the chances of dropping (or not dropping) certain quality items
Even when you potentially find the proper luck / proper mob to kill there is still going to be the % chance that everything hits the right RNG for you to get desired items

I'm sure there are a few other variables I'm leaving out but those are the main 3 I think. Basically you would need to sort through those 3 things and even if you had an answer to those there is still some RNG sprinkled over it that you probably need to kill X things or do X chests consecutively otherwise it's hard to say if that "good" piece you were looking for popped when you weren't there.

To properly test treasure hunting you would need like 50+ mage hoard maps in the same facet and they would all need to be the same quality (rusty/iron/gold) with the same luck consecutively to account for RNG and get an idea. Even then there might be some variances or outliers. To Merlin's point, if you have noticed that you on constantly getting cursed loot at X luck then scale it back by 1000 (easiest way is to do the same maps in Tram) and see what you end up with.

Gwen · January 2023

Merlin said:

As Keven noted, without dev confirmation, it's impossible to determine and you will get lots of different opinions. Only way to confirm is doing a large sample of chests with different luck values and trying to make sense out of where that 'sweet spot' is.

It is totally possible : you go , kill mobs, get all loot , put one-by-one in imbuing caculator and weight all properties. This is how developers will check it (overall chest |mob spawned loot intensity) and find all works correctly.
Or do it easy way : grab all loot and unravel , compare how many ingredients you get. With my toons I defenitely get more upper ones farming painted caves in Fel rather than in Tram. For me it proves luck is working.

What people are complaining is that they don't get piece they can sell for several plats from first chest. Thinking guys who ave something imilar did it in some very easy way.
We all get lots of gear , so getting some we can leave for ouself to use takes a lot of time.
System don't take in account what properties or their combination we count as valuable and which are ruining an item.

To answer @Grimbeard initial question : yes , it shoud be this way. With lower luck you will get less items or they will spawn with lesser properties.

popps · January 2023

Victim_Of_Siege said:

Grimbeard said:

Merlin said:

My understanding has been that luck had diminishing returns somewhere in the range of 2000-2400 (confirm?).

Having said that, when you try to maximize luck on your suit, you inevitably give up other stats and mods that you could have used to be more durable to fight whatever mobs spawn after opening a chest. So the question to me is whether or not the opportunity cost of using crafting intensity for additional luck and its affect on loot outweighs the benefit you would get from having other mods available in your build to perform better in the field. If T-Chests with near max luck are producing too many items with negative properties, then I believe you have part of your answer.. the real challenge being determining the "sweet spot" for luck to receive the best rewards possible without the luck overkill that produces high intensity loot with negative mods.

As Keven noted, without dev confirmation, it's impossible to determine and you will get lots of different opinions. Only way to confirm is doing a large sample of chests with different luck values and trying to make sense out of where that 'sweet spot' is.

The most confusing thing is for me at least the sweet spot changes from character to character

Depends on the luck the character was rolled with upon creation. no confusion

What do you mean ?

popps · January 2023

keven2002 said:

Grimbeard said:

Merlin said:

My understanding has been that luck had diminishing returns somewhere in the range of 2000-2400 (confirm?).

Having said that, when you try to maximize luck on your suit, you inevitably give up other stats and mods that you could have used to be more durable to fight whatever mobs spawn after opening a chest. So the question to me is whether or not the opportunity cost of using crafting intensity for additional luck and its affect on loot outweighs the benefit you would get from having other mods available in your build to perform better in the field. If T-Chests with near max luck are producing too many items with negative properties, then I believe you have part of your answer.. the real challenge being determining the "sweet spot" for luck to receive the best rewards possible without the luck overkill that produces high intensity loot with negative mods.

As Keven noted, without dev confirmation, it's impossible to determine and you will get lots of different opinions. Only way to confirm is doing a large sample of chests with different luck values and trying to make sense out of where that 'sweet spot' is.

The most confusing thing is for me at least the sweet spot changes from character to character

The trouble finding a sweet spot is likely because there are very few constants within UO (most things are heavily RNG based). I went down this rabbit hole a few years ago but luck impacts several things and on top of that there are a bunch of other variables that play a part so it's very hard to nail something down to an exact amount.

Quick synopsis of my findings:
Luck impacts several things which include number of items on the corpse / the number of properties on one (or more) item / the intensity of the properties
The mobs you kill (or chests you do) fall into a certain loot table and depending on what you kill; it will ultimately have a "max" rating (max properties / max intensity) depending where it falls in the loot table. Example: you will (probably) never loot a clean 10 SSI / 35 DI jewelry from a mongbat. Depending on where the mob falls on that table will determine the chances of dropping (or not dropping) certain quality items
Even when you potentially find the proper luck / proper mob to kill there is still going to be the % chance that everything hits the right RNG for you to get desired items
I'm sure there are a few other variables I'm leaving out but those are the main 3 I think. Basically you would need to sort through those 3 things and even if you had an answer to those there is still some RNG sprinkled over it that you probably need to kill X things or do X chests consecutively otherwise it's hard to say if that "good" piece you were looking for popped when you weren't there.

To properly test treasure hunting you would need like 50+ mage hoard maps in the same facet and they would all need to be the same quality (rusty/iron/gold) with the same luck consecutively to account for RNG and get an idea. Even then there might be some variances or outliers. To Merlin's point, if you have noticed that you on constantly getting cursed loot at X luck then scale it back by 1000 (easiest way is to do the same maps in Tram) and see what you end up with.

How many players can we expect to be "that" dedicated to a game and go through all that testing and trying with various setups in order to find out how Luck works ?

Most likely, at least to my opinion, I would imagine that, instead, more players would just get frustrated about how Luck works (or, if one prefers, does not work....), and just move elsewhere, to play other games....

What I am trying to say is that, at least to my viewing, when game mechanics do not work as players expect them to work like, for example, with worn Luck in UO, the more one wears, the better loot one gets, more players might just get frustrated by that game mechanics not working as expected and, thus, might then prefer to go play other games rather then invest large chunks of their time into testing that given mechanics to understand how it may or not work....

I mean, these are games, players, supposedly, play them to spend their "free" time in an enjoyable way..... spending large chunks of one's own time to test this or that, many players might not find it as their cup of tea....

popps · January 2023

Gwen said:

Merlin said:

As Keven noted, without dev confirmation, it's impossible to determine and you will get lots of different opinions. Only way to confirm is doing a large sample of chests with different luck values and trying to make sense out of where that 'sweet spot' is.

It is totally possible : you go , kill mobs, get all loot , put one-by-one in imbuing caculator and weight all properties. This is how developers will check it (overall chest |mob spawned loot intensity) and find all works correctly.
Or do it easy way : grab all loot and unravel , compare how many ingredients you get. With my toons I defenitely get more upper ones farming painted caves in Fel rather than in Tram. For me it proves luck is working.

What people are complaining is that they don't get piece they can sell for several plats from first chest. Thinking guys who ave something imilar did it in some very easy way.
We all get lots of gear , so getting some we can leave for ouself to use takes a lot of time.
System don't take in account what properties or their combination we count as valuable and which are ruining an item.

To answer @ gimbread initial question : yes , it shoud be this way. With lower luck you will get less items or they will spawn with lesser properties.

The way I see it, is that what matters most is not just to get properties with a high value but, that those properties, or at least most of those properties which a given items may have, "match" one another for whatever character and skillset a player might need that item.

To have items that mix high end properties for spellcasters and dexers, helps hardly anything for either a spellcaster or a dexer....

When, instead, most properties, and with high end values, end up matching the skillset of that given character then yes, the item is a "keeper"....

That said, perhaps, just perhaps, higher levels of Luck worn, should also, somehow, have it so that the Loot generator was to generate items with not random properties but, with properties that match one another and, the higher the Luck worn, the higher the properties ending up on that given item, would be more in line with one another and, thus,make that item a usefull item for a spellcaster or a dexer or a bard or a Rogue or whateoever....

But having Luck just "boost" the number of properties at random, ends up with items with a bunch of assorted properties which often do not match one another and, eventually, end up causing that item to be useless or not so usefull for a given character with a given skillset.

Petra_Fyde · January 2023

I have found that I can do exactly the same thing, for exactly the same length of time with exactly the same luck in place on two consecutive days and get totally different results. My conclusion, there's no accounting for RNG

keven2002 · January 2023

popps said:
How many players can we expect to be "that" dedicated to a game and go through all that testing and trying with various setups in order to find out how Luck works ?

Most likely, at least to my opinion, I would imagine that, instead, more players would just get frustrated about how Luck works (or, if one prefers, does not work....), and just move elsewhere, to play other games....

What I am trying to say is that, at least to my viewing, when game mechanics do not work as players expect them to work like, for example, with worn Luck in UO, the more one wears, the better loot one gets, more players might just get frustrated by that game mechanics not working as expected and, thus, might then prefer to go play other games rather then invest large chunks of their time into testing that given mechanics to understand how it may or not work....

I mean, these are games, players, supposedly, play them to spend their "free" time in an enjoyable way..... spending large chunks of one's own time to test this or that, many players might not find it as their cup of tea....

I'm not saying that the way things are now are what they should be; it's just how they are. The current Dev team has been pretty strict with not sharing the "secret sauce recipe" over the years; which I get to a point because giving away all the answers would make things boring for 99% of people.

Another problem with giving us full disclosure is that even if they did give us the exact formula there is still going to be RNG that cannot be accounted for so even though something might be a 1 in 10 chance there will be times it's 1 in 15. That would send some people in a tizzy because "the Devs said 1 in 10 and it took longer so something is broken".

Another part of me thinks they don't share details because then certain things could actually be tested by the players which probably play/test MUCH more than is done for QA and that becomes a problem for the Dev team because saying "it works as expected" no longer is a viable answer. In short it makes it easier to cover themselves if/when there is an issue.

keven2002 · January 2023

Gwen said:

What people are complaining is that they don't get piece they can sell for several plats from first chest. Thinking guys who ave something imilar did it in some very easy way.
We all get lots of gear , so getting some we can leave for ouself to use takes a lot of time.
System don't take in account what properties or their combination we count as valuable and which are ruining an item.

I can tell you with 99% certainty (with 1% being variation of unknown) that treasure chest loot will not net anyone several plats from any item - period. I've lost count but know I've done well over a thousand chests (hoard/trove alone) since the "revamp" and none of the loot has really been close to top level gear that sells for hundreds of millions (like from the roof / UW). My belief is that treasure chest top end intensity is maxed out at a loot table that is 1 less than the roof/UW.

Over 1k+ chest dug up and I have yet to find a piece that is legendary artifact with max property / max intensity. I've used all luck amounts ranging from 0 to 5k+ and there has yet to be any treasure chest piece I've added to any of my suits. If the goal is to make the most money off items then someone would be better off doing roof/UW as the items that drop there (that aren't even max intensity) still are better than something you will find in a chest.

Gwen · January 2023

keven2002 said:

Gwen said:

What people are complaining is that they don't get piece they can sell for several plats from first chest. Thinking guys who ave something imilar did it in some very easy way.
We all get lots of gear , so getting some we can leave for ouself to use takes a lot of time.
System don't take in account what properties or their combination we count as valuable and which are ruining an item.

I can tell you with 99% certainty (with 1% being variation of unknown) that treasure chest loot will not net anyone several plats from any item - period. I've lost count but know I've done well over a thousand chests (hoard/trove alone) since the "revamp" and none of the loot has really been close to top level gear that sells for hundreds of millions (like from the roof / UW). My belief is that treasure chest top end intensity is maxed out at a loot table that is 1 less than the roof/UW.

Over 1k+ chest dug up and I have yet to find a piece that is legendary artifact with max property / max intensity. I've used all luck amounts ranging from 0 to 5k+ and there has yet to be any treasure chest piece I've added to any of my suits. If the goal is to make the most money off items then someone would be better off doing roof/UW as the items that drop there (that aren't even max intensity) still are better than something you will find in a chest.

For several plat item you need to kill thousands and thousands of mobs and loot each of them.
Yes, treasure chest cannot be compared to the boss of some complicated event. And it's cap is lower than UW boss, for sure.

For 10M+ ring|bracelet +25 DI + 10 SSI - it can spawn on anything . Like on ose imps or skeletons during first level of champ spawn or during last Deceit event. do we bother to loot each one? not at all.

Yes , roof|UW\Scallis loot is OP. Only time I saw something similar (but lower, sure) wasn in Destard event on Para Shadow wyrms. Where pile of macro /script archers were killing em , they had 100+ items on corpse. So to get more loot from same mob|chest you either need more luck or more people hitting it. If you have more people in your party , chest will spawn with more items => more chances to get that THING . And will be faster to kill spawned guardians. But it still doesn't mean you will get something better than your gear.

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Is too much luck a bad thing??

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