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We should be able to lock Fame, just as we can like Karma

JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
in General Discussions
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  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 4,080
    You can choose fame based title what would be the point of this?
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
    Not really true. Lord always seems to show on the character. If anyone is aware of something short of repeatedly dying or using Sacrifice (which has its limitations), I'll listen.

    The point would be for roleplay purposes and, relatedly, just because not everyone wants "Lord" or "Lady" showing all the time simply because you've fought a lot of hard monsters. No one wants NPCs to randomly bow to you as you pass by for the same reason.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 4,080
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    Not really true. Lord always seems to show on the character. If anyone is aware of something short of repeatedly dying or using Sacrifice (which has its limitations), I'll listen.

    The point would be for roleplay purposes and, relatedly, just because not everyone wants "Lord" or "Lady" showing all the time simply because you've fought a lot of hard monsters. No one wants NPCs to randomly bow to you as you pass by for the same reason.
    If you click yourself and bring up titles menu either the first or second choice allows you to pick
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
    McDougle said:

    If you click yourself and bring up titles menu either the first or second choice allows you to pick
    *sighs* No. Tested dozens of times, and just now.

    What's at issue, the titles menu calls "overhead name" and "paper doll name prefix."

    "Overhead name" simply does not include a Fame/Karma category at all. Lord/Lady stays, no matter what you do. "Paper doll name prefix," if you're at Lord/Lady, includes Lord/Lady in all possible titles. Further, with the underlying fame, the NPCs probably would bow to you on occasion whether the title was suppressed or not.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,022
    edited July 2022
    McDougle said:
    You can choose fame based title what would be the point of this?
    If your karma falls below Lord,  the title goes away. It stays on the paper doll until you close it.

    Would be pointless to have the title if you did not need to upkeep it.

    A better solution would be that you do not lose fame or karma when res killed. Ex: if you die within 1 min of last death you do not lose either of those stats.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,022
    edited July 2022
    .
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
    Pawain said:
    McDougle said:
    You can choose fame based title what would be the point of this?
    If your karma falls below Lord,  the title goes away. It stays on the paper doll until you close it.

    Would be pointless to have the title if you did not need to upkeep it.

    A better solution would be that you do not lose fame or karma when res killed. Ex: if you die within 1 min of last death you do not lose either of those stats.

    Lord is based on Fame, not Karma.

    "Locking" Karma doesn't prevent you from losing Karma. It prevents you from gaining it. And that's what I'm after with Fame.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,022
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    Pawain said:
    McDougle said:
    You can choose fame based title what would be the point of this?
    If your karma falls below Lord,  the title goes away. It stays on the paper doll until you close it.

    Would be pointless to have the title if you did not need to upkeep it.

    A better solution would be that you do not lose fame or karma when res killed. Ex: if you die within 1 min of last death you do not lose either of those stats.

    Lord is based on Fame, not Karma.

    "Locking" Karma doesn't prevent you from losing Karma. It prevents you from gaining it. And that's what I'm after with Fame.

    Yes I had it correct first then then edited it, then messed up and made a copy post, then gave up.

    Fame is associated with Glorious and such. So again, it has a purpose and should not be locked.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • ReikoReiko Posts: 30
    I also agree and if not on the lock then an ability to select all available reputation titles that are equal or below fame level. I'm not sure why knowing someone is "Glorious" or their fame level has any gameplay implications just like being able to chose different  titles based on Karma. 
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,263
    Just my opinion but it's likely because the fame system is 24 years old (I believe it's been the same since the start?). 

    I remember 20+ years ago I had to work really hard to reach Glorious Lord and work just as hard to keep it (much like a full Val GM plate suit). I remember killing tons of lich lords for what seemed like days to get Lord and if I died once it would set me back dozens of LL. It was more of a status thing for me and most people I knew.

    Fast forward to now and you can get Lord relatively quickly with being able to mow down daemons / LL / AW / SW / dragons etc so the title, like many other things, has lost much of it's symbolism. I think it makes sense allow fame to be a toggle as well given that the highest fame doesn't mean anything near as much as it used to.
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,276
    Not to take away from the OP, but I never understood what it is exactly we're supposed to be a Lord or Lady of. 

    What makes a character so glorious? Why so unsavory? 

    It would be super cool for titles to actually have some sort of meaning instead of just being generic. 
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,263
    Urge said:
    Not to take away from the OP, but I never understood what it is exactly we're supposed to be a Lord or Lady of. 

    What makes a character so glorious? Why so unsavory? 

    It would be super cool for titles to actually have some sort of meaning instead of just being generic. 
    At one point they did. I believe a long time ago if you were a Dread Lord the shop keepers would not do business with you (someone so unsavory). I feel like being a Glorious Lord/Lady might have given you something minor (maybe a small npc discount?) but I'm not 100% sure there.
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
    Urge said:
    Not to take away from the OP, but I never understood what it is exactly we're supposed to be a Lord or Lady of. 

    What makes a character so glorious? Why so unsavory? 

    It would be super cool for titles to actually have some sort of meaning instead of just being generic. 

    Ok so....I don't know if this answers your question or not. But let me take you back. This stems from a combination of my own memory of many years playing and my memory of previous research on old versions of UO.com using the Wayback Machine. (Some wild, wacky stuff in there......)

    Long ago, the Reputation system (Fame/Karma) didn't exist, Instead we had Notoriety which sought to combine the grey/red/blue flags with something like what we'd call Karma today. (Ever year the term "noto-killer" or "noto-PK" to refer to someone who kills grays, or tries to turn folks gray so they can be killed freely?)

    It was, shall we say, flawed. I only dimly recall the specifics other than that it was too easy to go grey or red. (Wow I'm forgetting if gray even existed back then! But, either way, you get the idea.)

    (Yes I know I'm spelling grey inconsistently. I don't care.)

    So alongside pointing out the flaws in Notoriety, players were also asking for noble titles for some reason. (So whatever Lord/Lady means, we the players specifically asked for it, or something like it, at the time.) At first, the dev teams at the time told us that such things were, gosh darn it, just not possible. (Sound familiar?)

    Then someone thought of a way to combine the titles thing along with a brand new system to replace Notoriety that might, folks hoped, fix the problems.

    And thusly Reputation was born, not for the last time we were abruptly given something we were told was not possible, and, thusly, has it continued lo these many ears with surprisingly minor changes. I'm pretty sure that's also when they splintered off the criminal acts flag system from the reputation system. (I surely don't remember folks saying "I must consider my sins" before attacking and getting turned into a mop before a certain point.)

    So what're we Lords and Ladies of exactly? I can only make some decent guesses (honorary title conferred by the Crown as a reward for service, like how that wine seller on Game of Thrones was going to get a title for killing Dany). To know for sure better find one of those people many years ago who asked for this!

    keven2002 said:
    At one point they did. I believe a long time ago if you were a Dread Lord the shop keepers would not do business with you (someone so unsavory). I feel like being a Glorious Lord/Lady might have given you something minor (maybe a small npc discount?) but I'm not 100% sure there.

    I can confirm that first part actually. Or, at least, I can confirm that documentation said this was supposed to happen. Somehow I doubt it worked properly. I have no memory of a bonus for Glorious title other than, at Glorious Lord level, NPCs bowing to you once in awhile (which continues to this day).

    So here's where someone says that I'm a dumb Trammie noob who is getting it all wrong.
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,276
    I remember the dread lords and reds being essentially shunned. Other than that, the whole system never went anywhere like it probably should. 

    It would be neat to give it a purpose. 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,022
    Urge said:
    I remember the dread lords and reds being essentially shunned. Other than that, the whole system never went anywhere like it probably should. 

    It would be neat to give it a purpose. 
    I gives me a purpose, I have killed a bazillion Balrons at Chaos to bring my Fame and Karma back up after dying.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 619
    edited July 2022
    keven2002 said:
    Urge said:
    Not to take away from the OP, but I never understood what it is exactly we're supposed to be a Lord or Lady of. 

    What makes a character so glorious? Why so unsavory? 

    It would be super cool for titles to actually have some sort of meaning instead of just being generic. 
    At one point they did. I believe a long time ago if you were a Dread Lord the shop keepers would not do business with you (someone so unsavory). I feel like being a Glorious Lord/Lady might have given you something minor (maybe a small npc discount?) but I'm not 100% sure there.

    Urge said:
    I remember the dread lords and reds being essentially shunned. Other than that, the whole system never went anywhere like it probably should. 

    It would be neat to give it a purpose. 

    Back in the day (pre-Renaissance), the only way you could become a Dread Lord, was to be a red. Dread Lords were literally the most feared and skilled PKs in the game, the best of the best, you had to be incredibly good to retain Lord status when anyone could attack you on sight anywhere. It's why the severed heads of Dread Lords are so rare and worth so much nowadays.
    Reds got guard whacked damn near the instant they walked into town, NPCs would call for the guards against them. You literally couldn't use any NPC services outside of Buccaneer's Den (which was the only town without guards, it was lawless) as a red. Which also meant that you couldn't buy new horses from the Stables as a red (no bonding or ethies yet), a player tamer was a red's best friend then. Reds could only be ressed by other players or at the Chaos Shrine.

    After The Second Age came out, reds also got permanent skill-loss upon death. Every time you died as a red, you permanently lost skill and had to work it back up. Blues would camp out at the Chaos Shrine and res-kill reds to reduce their skill levels back down to newbie status.
    After Renaissance introduced Order vs Chaos, Dread Lord status was no longer restricted to only reds. In order to be part of an Order guild, you had to retain Glorious Lord status, and to be part of a Chaos guild, you had to retain Dread Lord status.

    In regards to Karma nowadays, i just wish they'd stop introducing hostile mobs into the "Treasures of " Events that drop your Karma when you kill them. Ice and Destard both had hostile positive karma mobs (Platinum Drakes and Treefellows) that would tank your Karma when killed. My Chiv/Macer went from capped 32k Karma down to below 10k Karma thanks to the Treefellows in the Treasures of Destard event :/
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
    PlayerSkillFTW said:

    Back in the day (pre-Renaissance), the only way you could become a Dread Lord, was to be a red. Dread Lords were literally the most feared and skilled PKs in the game, the best of the best, you had to be incredibly good to retain Lord status when anyone could attack you on sight anywhere. It's why the severed heads of Dread Lords are so rare and worth so much nowadays.
    Reds got guard whacked damn near the instant they walked into town, NPCs would call for the guards against them. You literally couldn't use any NPC services outside of Buccaneer's Den (which was the only town without guards, it was lawless) as a red. Which also meant that you couldn't buy new horses from the Stables as a red (no bonding or ethies yet), a player tamer was a red's best friend then. Reds could only be ressed by other players or at the Chaos Shrine.

    After The Second Age came out, reds also got permanent skill-loss upon death. Every time you died as a red, you permanently lost skill and had to work it back up. Blues would camp out at the Chaos Shrine and res-kill reds to reduce their skill levels back down to newbie status.
    After Renaissance introduced Order vs Chaos, Dread Lord status was no longer restricted to only reds. In order to be part of an Order guild, you had to retain Glorious Lord status, and to be part of a Chaos guild, you had to retain Dread Lord status.

    In regards to Karma nowadays, i just wish they'd stop introducing hostile mobs into the "Treasures of " Events that drop your Karma when you kill them. Ice and Destard both had hostile positive karma mobs (Platinum Drakes and Treefellows) that would tank your Karma when killed. My Chiv/Macer went from capped 32k Karma down to below 10k Karma thanks to the Treefellows in the Treasures of Destard event :/

    I remember that pre-UOR I saw only one Dread Lord the entire time. So that would support the notion that this was a rare phenomenon. However, I'm always wary when someone cites the skill of PKs because there were plenty of chances to rack up kills against people who simply weren't capable of, or prepared to, put up a great fight. (Or are you including selecting targets well as part of being "skilled" at PKing?)

    Regarding banks and services, yes Buc's was the standard but I also remember that there were exploits and tricks that could let you access banks besides Buc's. (I saw one dude accessing his bank box in Yew, from just outside the guard zone, but that was considerably after the time period we're talking about so I don't know if that was always there or not. I also recall many different "open bank boxes from everywhere" exploits, going back many years.) Beyond banks of course the other services could be an issue. On LS a "blessed" player town in Fel, called Rivendell, had a stable they could access but that was the exception.

    Your memory of Order/Chaos is drastically different from mine -- not sure if that means we're in contradiction or if it means I'm thinking of different time periods. I do remember many in Order/Chaos who were not "Lord"s of any stripe, but I can't guarantee what time period that was. I do know, though, that if Dread Lord (or negative Karma at all!) was a requirement of Order/Chaos at any point, then that would mean that the UO devs of the time didn't understand their own story. Because Chaos in UO was never Evil, exactly. This wasn't the Chaos of the Elric or Witcher universes. Rather this was Lord Blackthorn trying to prevent shards from collapsing. (I note that Blackthorn ended up winning the Chaos/Order war by default because, much later on, British, meaning the British on all shards acting in consort, gave up trying to convert everyone to the Virtues.)

    As to camping the Chaos Shrine I do not remember that being a widespread phenomenon -- it surely happened, though. I've done it. Though most of my memories of it date to after Publish 16, when reds killed in a dungeon or in The Lost Lands would be teleported to that Shrine immediately. Please remember that PKs tended to travel in packs, so one could always have help and support on-call (especially before the Publish 16 era automatic teleporting). I also remember camping the Chaos Shrine being the one time when rez-killing was considered actionable by a GM. PowerGamers reported on it in glowing terms. (Normally rez-killing was explicitly not actionable and you'd get warned or threatened by the GMs for paging on it.)

    Yes, having positive Karma monsters at this kind of event is a bad idea and I'm not sure why they would do it.

    At any rate, back to the main topic....I think we should be able to lock Fame (from going up), just like we can lock Karma (from going up).
  • MerlinMerlin Posts: 231

    Leave karma and fame as is. 

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,926
    Merlin said:

    Leave karma and fame as is. 

    +1
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • GarretGarret Posts: 187
    We need to have option in title menu to remove lord/lady title, two things : 1. You could create some specific crafter name to fit your gear, but 1 day you become lord/lady and crafter name on crafted items screwed aswell 2. You could change your gender and become lady with male name, this is just silly,nothing about gender fights.
  • MerusMerus Posts: 656
    I’m pretty sure we already have a toggle to remove the overhead Lord/Lady title.  Sometimes you have to do it a couple times for it to take, but it does work.  It’s called dying.
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 619

    Back in the day (pre-Renaissance), the only way you could become a Dread Lord, was to be a red. Dread Lords were literally the most feared and skilled PKs in the game, the best of the best, you had to be incredibly good to retain Lord status when anyone could attack you on sight anywhere. It's why the severed heads of Dread Lords are so rare and worth so much nowadays.
    Reds got guard whacked damn near the instant they walked into town, NPCs would call for the guards against them. You literally couldn't use any NPC services outside of Buccaneer's Den (which was the only town without guards, it was lawless) as a red. Which also meant that you couldn't buy new horses from the Stables as a red (no bonding or ethies yet), a player tamer was a red's best friend then. Reds could only be ressed by other players or at the Chaos Shrine.

    After The Second Age came out, reds also got permanent skill-loss upon death. Every time you died as a red, you permanently lost skill and had to work it back up. Blues would camp out at the Chaos Shrine and res-kill reds to reduce their skill levels back down to newbie status.
    After Renaissance introduced Order vs Chaos, Dread Lord status was no longer restricted to only reds. In order to be part of an Order guild, you had to retain Glorious Lord status, and to be part of a Chaos guild, you had to retain Dread Lord status.

    In regards to Karma nowadays, i just wish they'd stop introducing hostile mobs into the "Treasures of " Events that drop your Karma when you kill them. Ice and Destard both had hostile positive karma mobs (Platinum Drakes and Treefellows) that would tank your Karma when killed. My Chiv/Macer went from capped 32k Karma down to below 10k Karma thanks to the Treefellows in the Treasures of Destard event :/

    I remember that pre-UOR I saw only one Dread Lord the entire time. So that would support the notion that this was a rare phenomenon. However, I'm always wary when someone cites the skill of PKs because there were plenty of chances to rack up kills against people who simply weren't capable of, or prepared to, put up a great fight. (Or are you including selecting targets well as part of being "skilled" at PKing?)

    Regarding banks and services, yes Buc's was the standard but I also remember that there were exploits and tricks that could let you access banks besides Buc's. (I saw one dude accessing his bank box in Yew, from just outside the guard zone, but that was considerably after the time period we're talking about so I don't know if that was always there or not. I also recall many different "open bank boxes from everywhere" exploits, going back many years.) Beyond banks of course the other services could be an issue. On LS a "blessed" player town in Fel, called Rivendell, had a stable they could access but that was the exception.

    Your memory of Order/Chaos is drastically different from mine -- not sure if that means we're in contradiction or if it means I'm thinking of different time periods. I do remember many in Order/Chaos who were not "Lord"s of any stripe, but I can't guarantee what time period that was. I do know, though, that if Dread Lord (or negative Karma at all!) was a requirement of Order/Chaos at any point, then that would mean that the UO devs of the time didn't understand their own story. Because Chaos in UO was never Evil, exactly. This wasn't the Chaos of the Elric or Witcher universes. Rather this was Lord Blackthorn trying to prevent shards from collapsing. (I note that Blackthorn ended up winning the Chaos/Order war by default because, much later on, British, meaning the British on all shards acting in consort, gave up trying to convert everyone to the Virtues.)

    As to camping the Chaos Shrine I do not remember that being a widespread phenomenon -- it surely happened, though. I've done it. Though most of my memories of it date to after Publish 16, when reds killed in a dungeon or in The Lost Lands would be teleported to that Shrine immediately. Please remember that PKs tended to travel in packs, so one could always have help and support on-call (especially before the Publish 16 era automatic teleporting). I also remember camping the Chaos Shrine being the one time when rez-killing was considered actionable by a GM. PowerGamers reported on it in glowing terms. (Normally rez-killing was explicitly not actionable and you'd get warned or threatened by the GMs for paging on it.)

    Yes, having positive Karma monsters at this kind of event is a bad idea and I'm not sure why they would do it.

    At any rate, back to the main topic....I think we should be able to lock Fame (from going up), just like we can lock Karma (from going up).

    Most Dread Lords became Lords by killing players that were Glorious Lords, which were themselves skilled players and rare back then (Lord title was MUCH more difficult to obtain back then). You could gain Fame from killing players that had more Fame than you. Dread Lords were usually the Guildmaster of PK guilds, so they did usually have a posse they ran with too.

    From my old "Ultima Online Renaissance Playguide"...
    CHAOS AND ORDER GUILDS
    Order Guilds operate under the direct sanction of Lord British, while Chaos Guilds are sponsored by Blackthorn. A guild master may declare his guild a Chaos or Order Guild if the guild master is a Lord or Lady, i.e., if he or she has a fame of the highest level.

    Once a guild is declared for Order or Chaos, all members of the guild with fame of Lord or Lady status receive an Order or Chaos shield (these shields are extremely powerful defensive magic items). Those who have not attained this exalted fame are cast out of the guild, nor can anyone of inferior fame join an Order or Chaos guild.

    More importantly, all Order Guilds are considered to be in an automatic and continual state of war with all Chaos Guilds, and vice versa (see "Guild War," above).
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
    PlayerSkillFTW said:

    Back in the day (pre-Renaissance), the only way you could become a Dread Lord, was to be a red. Dread Lords were literally the most feared and skilled PKs in the game, the best of the best, you had to be incredibly good to retain Lord status when anyone could attack you on sight anywhere. It's why the severed heads of Dread Lords are so rare and worth so much nowadays.
    Reds got guard whacked damn near the instant they walked into town, NPCs would call for the guards against them. You literally couldn't use any NPC services outside of Buccaneer's Den (which was the only town without guards, it was lawless) as a red. Which also meant that you couldn't buy new horses from the Stables as a red (no bonding or ethies yet), a player tamer was a red's best friend then. Reds could only be ressed by other players or at the Chaos Shrine.

    After The Second Age came out, reds also got permanent skill-loss upon death. Every time you died as a red, you permanently lost skill and had to work it back up. Blues would camp out at the Chaos Shrine and res-kill reds to reduce their skill levels back down to newbie status.
    After Renaissance introduced Order vs Chaos, Dread Lord status was no longer restricted to only reds. In order to be part of an Order guild, you had to retain Glorious Lord status, and to be part of a Chaos guild, you had to retain Dread Lord status.

    In regards to Karma nowadays, i just wish they'd stop introducing hostile mobs into the "Treasures of " Events that drop your Karma when you kill them. Ice and Destard both had hostile positive karma mobs (Platinum Drakes and Treefellows) that would tank your Karma when killed. My Chiv/Macer went from capped 32k Karma down to below 10k Karma thanks to the Treefellows in the Treasures of Destard event :/

    I remember that pre-UOR I saw only one Dread Lord the entire time. So that would support the notion that this was a rare phenomenon. However, I'm always wary when someone cites the skill of PKs because there were plenty of chances to rack up kills against people who simply weren't capable of, or prepared to, put up a great fight. (Or are you including selecting targets well as part of being "skilled" at PKing?)

    Regarding banks and services, yes Buc's was the standard but I also remember that there were exploits and tricks that could let you access banks besides Buc's. (I saw one dude accessing his bank box in Yew, from just outside the guard zone, but that was considerably after the time period we're talking about so I don't know if that was always there or not. I also recall many different "open bank boxes from everywhere" exploits, going back many years.) Beyond banks of course the other services could be an issue. On LS a "blessed" player town in Fel, called Rivendell, had a stable they could access but that was the exception.

    Your memory of Order/Chaos is drastically different from mine -- not sure if that means we're in contradiction or if it means I'm thinking of different time periods. I do remember many in Order/Chaos who were not "Lord"s of any stripe, but I can't guarantee what time period that was. I do know, though, that if Dread Lord (or negative Karma at all!) was a requirement of Order/Chaos at any point, then that would mean that the UO devs of the time didn't understand their own story. Because Chaos in UO was never Evil, exactly. This wasn't the Chaos of the Elric or Witcher universes. Rather this was Lord Blackthorn trying to prevent shards from collapsing. (I note that Blackthorn ended up winning the Chaos/Order war by default because, much later on, British, meaning the British on all shards acting in consort, gave up trying to convert everyone to the Virtues.)

    As to camping the Chaos Shrine I do not remember that being a widespread phenomenon -- it surely happened, though. I've done it. Though most of my memories of it date to after Publish 16, when reds killed in a dungeon or in The Lost Lands would be teleported to that Shrine immediately. Please remember that PKs tended to travel in packs, so one could always have help and support on-call (especially before the Publish 16 era automatic teleporting). I also remember camping the Chaos Shrine being the one time when rez-killing was considered actionable by a GM. PowerGamers reported on it in glowing terms. (Normally rez-killing was explicitly not actionable and you'd get warned or threatened by the GMs for paging on it.)

    Yes, having positive Karma monsters at this kind of event is a bad idea and I'm not sure why they would do it.

    At any rate, back to the main topic....I think we should be able to lock Fame (from going up), just like we can lock Karma (from going up).

    Most Dread Lords became Lords by killing players that were Glorious Lords, which were themselves skilled players and rare back then (Lord title was MUCH more difficult to obtain back then). You could gain Fame from killing players that had more Fame than you. Dread Lords were usually the Guildmaster of PK guilds, so they did usually have a posse they ran with too.

    From my old "Ultima Online Renaissance Playguide"...
    CHAOS AND ORDER GUILDS
    Order Guilds operate under the direct sanction of Lord British, while Chaos Guilds are sponsored by Blackthorn. A guild master may declare his guild a Chaos or Order Guild if the guild master is a Lord or Lady, i.e., if he or she has a fame of the highest level.

    Once a guild is declared for Order or Chaos, all members of the guild with fame of Lord or Lady status receive an Order or Chaos shield (these shields are extremely powerful defensive magic items). Those who have not attained this exalted fame are cast out of the guild, nor can anyone of inferior fame join an Order or Chaos guild.

    More importantly, all Order Guilds are considered to be in an automatic and continual state of war with all Chaos Guilds, and vice versa (see "Guild War," above).

    I lost my UO:R guidebook long ago, which makes me sad.

    I note though that the quote you offer says nothing about the Karma piece, just Fame. Frankly, though, allowing Dreads to align with British is just as messed up as would be requiring Dread status to be aligned with Blackthorn!

    I wonder how long this lasted -- as you pointed out, getting that level of Fame was very, very difficult, as was maintaining it. (I, and others, felt that this encouraged cowardly play.) Given that, I doubt they could've maintained it that way for very long.
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
    Merus said:
    I’m pretty sure we already have a toggle to remove the overhead Lord/Lady title.  Sometimes you have to do it a couple times for it to take, but it does work.  It’s called dying.

    Different thing.
    And why allow Karma to be locked but not Fame?
  • ReikoReiko Posts: 30
    edited July 2022
    Merus said:
    I’m pretty sure we already have a toggle to remove the overhead Lord/Lady title.  Sometimes you have to do it a couple times for it to take, but it does work.  It’s called dying.

    Different thing.
    And why allow Karma to be locked but not Fame?
    Unfortunately I don't think you'll get much positive feedback here. Too many people resistant to change. The fame change you are suggesting is 100% cosmetic/roleplay and has no meaningful game mechanic behind it other than gimping yourself out of Sacrifice virtue gains. I agree with you and would be nice to see this cosmetic option. 
  • MerusMerus Posts: 656
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    Merus said:
    I’m pretty sure we already have a toggle to remove the overhead Lord/Lady title.  Sometimes you have to do it a couple times for it to take, but it does work.  It’s called dying.

    Different thing.
    And why allow Karma to be locked but not Fame?
    Karma can go negative… Fame can’t?
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 433
    Merus said:
    Karma can go negative… Fame can’t?

    Actually, both can rise and fall. In terms of the mechanic of stopping them from rising, it shouldn't matter whether one can vary from 0 to, say, +100,000 and the other can vary from -100,000 to +100,000.

    Reiko said:
    Unfortunately I don't think you'll get much positive feedback here. Too many people resistant to change. The fame change you are suggesting is 100% cosmetic/roleplay and has no meaningful game mechanic behind it other than gimping yourself out of Sacrifice virtue gains. I agree with you and would be nice to see this cosmetic option. 
    Prominent people in the community issue proposals all the time that will benefit their preferred playstyles. It seems odd to get the negativity when I propose something that benefits my preferred playstyle. Oh well.

  • ReikoReiko Posts: 30
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    Merus said:
    Karma can go negative… Fame can’t?

    Actually, both can rise and fall. In terms of the mechanic of stopping them from rising, it shouldn't matter whether one can vary from 0 to, say, +100,000 and the other can vary from -100,000 to +100,000.

    Reiko said:
    Unfortunately I don't think you'll get much positive feedback here. Too many people resistant to change. The fame change you are suggesting is 100% cosmetic/roleplay and has no meaningful game mechanic behind it other than gimping yourself out of Sacrifice virtue gains. I agree with you and would be nice to see this cosmetic option. 
    Prominent people in the community issue proposals all the time that will benefit their preferred playstyles. It seems odd to get the negativity when I propose something that benefits my preferred playstyle. Oh well.

    Keep posting your feedback/ideas. Prominent player means nothing, just a bunch of old long time players who think they are special. You are a paying customer like everyone else. I don't know why people are debating so hard to prevent people from getting more access to reputation titles in the game that already exist. 
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,455
    I'm not against the idea, however, it is possible to at least prevent the character from becoming lord or lady through sacrifice virtue. While most people want the highest level of fame they can get to get the highest sacrifice credit, you can sacrifice before that. I'm not sure of the exact amount of fame needed, but I can try to find out.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,263
    Petra_Fyde said:
    I'm not against the idea, however, it is possible to at least prevent the character from becoming lord or lady through sacrifice virtue. While most people want the highest level of fame they can get to get the highest sacrifice credit, you can sacrifice before that. I'm not sure of the exact amount of fame needed, but I can try to find out.
    I think the magic number (if memory serves me right) on max sacrifice credit is anything above 10k. You can also only gain sacrifice once every 24 hours.
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