Evasion combined with casting schools needs fixed!!
in PvP / VvV
Pvp will never get better until this is fixed. Dont allow evade period when combined with magery, mysticism or chiv above 50 skill. Evasion should be for one tile pvpers only in order to give it balance!!
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I have a sort of sympathy with you, I get your point, but overall, I just don't find this OP in any way.
It's a defensive skill, defensive skills are in the main completely obliterated by offensive skills. I play against many Evade mages, and think nothing of them, same with Bok mages tbh.
Having said that, I do agree to a point, that some things just don't go together that well, shouldn't really have been put together because the efficiencies they give are too much.
But if you go down the Evade Mage route, there are plenty of equal routes to go down.
Dismount on any weapon at all - it should only be bola, not a warrior skill - why - because mages don't have a complimentary skill, or counter.
Deathstrike on a mounted character - again, originally, only really meant for a ninja on foot, it was designed to be quite OP to make up for the fact the character was on foot. For this reason - I'm ok with Bolas, but not much else (Dismount being another OP skill but the character is on foot).
The classic in PvM - Necro with Chiv/Necro with Bushido - the Sampire - this is the ultimate nono, which proves the point beyond any doubt that some things just were not meant to be together. The Healing skill, should never have been over-shadowed by these skills.
So on one hand, I get your point, on the other, It doesn't make much difference to the group pvp I fight in - if they hit Evade, we just wait, then kill them when it's gone/ or use dexxers and dismount them and gank them anyway. It's a bit like Spellweavers shield/gift of renewal spells.
And No, I don't play Evade mages - I did try it once, and found it boring, I accept it is for boring mages.
{Although I cannot talk right now, I've retired my mage spellweaver to play a parry anat/healer mage - the sheer volume and damage output of warriors/(and banes until recently)/dismounts is just too much, having to go full defensive in the current climate}.
But I cannot see the Devs doing anything about it - they really have pursued a policy of being able to combine everything - for better or worse. And it doesn't bother me.
Magery is the most versatile thing in UO, not the most powerful. It is not great 1v1, but it scales up in teams. Yes it is superb, and so it should be, everything else is brainless in comparison.
If warriors need parry or evade - then so do mages, they are all on the receiving end of the same damage output and types. All the warriors I know, rip apart anyone without Parry. If you don't have Parry, you may as well not pvp in my experience, you will last all of 5 seconds then weaken your team. Evade - not so much an issue. I usually see the guys using it as cowardly, they are usually just running away, only bothered with their own survival rather than pvp, I let them run away, they will come back if they want pvp or to win the objective I'm completing.
I see plenty of 1 tile dexxers. Healing itself is still a very good skill in pvp. Deathstrike, Splinter, Dismount, Poison, AI, they have plenty of powerful options. But as I say, victim of their own success, it got to a point, everyone was using only Dexxers v us, so we all had to get Parry, yes, we've adapted and made it harder for them, we've reduced our SDI, we've reduced our Mana and Casting ability, to just survive them.
And whilst I disagree with you re Mages/Warriors, I still have a certain agreement that some things should be kept apart. I would actually have no issue at all, with Evade being taken off Mages - none of my entire team even use this set-up (and we had 30 out last night
). It's only a few really boring non factors who do. Like I say - they hit Evade. they run off, I let them, I'm not chasing them all day, they will come back if they want PvP, or to beat me.
Or it showcases we are a worldwide team who have been together, and been at the top, and the bottom for over 15 years of solid pvp, many of us are ex-factioners from the beginning of factions, we are friends who socialise in the game together, and do an extraordinary amount of content.
Right now, we are at the top, come and fight us.
Last night after work, Despise, Despise, Oaks, Harry, Terathon, Roofs, we are a Felucca guild, who are highly active and experienced, we play a ton in Felucca, and quite happily take on the server when we can.
I've liked everything you said until then, haha.
Nevermind, I'll let you off.
I don't do Yew Gate pvp, it is boring, though some of our guild do, I prefer big objective content. I do think pvpers should state their templates, and pvp style when they post, it would enable greater understanding of their perspective.
And ps, the 30 was a bit of an anomaly, it just happened, we often have 3, we often fight way outnumbered.
Agreed, here's why...
1. I don't think it's possible to balance weapon swings vs. casting spells, it's like apples and oranges. Weapons can miss and be blocked. Spells can't miss but can be interrupted. With those two facts, I feel safe to say that mages are superior in the overall "mage vs dexer" debate. You could also argue that weapon abilities have a more intense effect on players in PVP than spells do, for example, you can't dismount with a spell. In order to interrupt a spell, they have to be hit, and there are ways to reduce the chance of being hit on top of the chance the weapon user has to make a hit.
Let's add to this...
2. Parry is a game mechanic that you let completely block a weapon attack or special ability. There is no skill in the game that allows you to do that vs. spells passively. The other side to this for spells is Resisting Spells - they are in no way alike. Resisting Spells reduce the intensity and duration of debuffs, among a few other niche things like resisting paralysis. One mechanic negates the other's ability completely and the other reduces intensity. Another win for the mages IMO.
I love the fact that you can make anything you want in this game, but I feel there should be limitations because of #1 and #2 above. Parry Mages are already a tough opponent for Weapon users alone, then give them an Evasion cooldown and it almost feels like a pointless fight.
Yes, there are templates that are going to counter other templates and that is normal. I feel like an Evasion Mage counters everything though.
I would like to see block chances reduced (not removed) based on the level of casting skills.
Just Disarm them, a counter move available to both Mages and Warriors alike.
I don't see the problem?
Disarm, Dismount, Gank, no issue.
Dismount, Disarm, Gank, even less issue
What about that isn't OP to you?
Again I'm not saying completely remove it, but I think a block chance nerf on evasion for casting users would be beneficial to PVP.
So a Bush/Parry/Evade/Mage needs 100+ skills in Bush/mage/parry/tact/anat to get the full effect of Evade and also has to have 80+ dex and has to have a weapon equipped. All this for a special that lasts 5-8 sec and has a 20 sec cool down and is subject to diminishing returns in pvp.
#1 why is this all of a sudden an OMG this is so OP when it has been in the game for so long?
#2 during the cool down there is no Evade and you still can't kill him then IMHO you need to look at your set up.
#3 Why is it that a Bush/Sword/Tact/Anat/Parry is not OP considering Evade is mainly a defense against a weapons attack.
#4 doesn't disarm cancel Evade until you rearm and what is it that this OP build is evading?
https://www.uoguide.com/Evasion
This had a better write up on it than anybody else and I have never known this site to put out misinformation.
Also, generally speaking, people go with the minimum required skill they need so they can fit as much into their templates as possible. What I'm saying is... how many Bokuto Mages do you think are running Anatomy? I could be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure none of them.
If a Bokuto Mage with Anatomy gets disarmed, I'm wondering if the Anatomy+Eval=Wrestling rule will apply to Block/Evasion. Normally if a mage is disarmed they have no weapon skill, but if they have Anatomy+Eval that counts as a weapon skill for calculating hit/miss. I'm wondering if that also spills over to not needing a shield with Bushido.
In short, I agree if they're dumping all that skill then fine. The people I've run into don't.
Any mage who takes up Parry, has seriously limited his casting ability. He has usually dropped his Meditation to fit in the extra skills, and reduced his Mana from about 210 to 150 to reach the 80+ Dex required to make Parry work. Even with 30 MR, Soul Charge 30% Max LMC etc, he only has enough mana to stay in combat for a maximum of 2 minutes, compared to 5-10 minutes with Med and Mana. In a defensive scenario he can only cast a few fields and he is out, unlike full mana mages that can keep on casting.
He has also reduced his SDI from 35 with Inscription which is a lovely place to be, and what is really required for a mage to kill stuff easily, to 25 because he has lost Inscription, then down to 20 SDI because he is now a Non Pure Mage due to Parry. So he has lost a ton of his damage output. This was a bad nerf to Mages, and designed to stop us using Parry, because so many Dexxers complained the last time around. I said very clearly at the time, it will not make any difference, Mages will still use Parry - because they are forced to - to stand any chance. So this Evasion Mage - is just another step up in defensiveness - why do you think players are playing this defensively? Do you think they want to? Most players would prefer to be out there with their Damage Output nuking things, which is what the Warriors have. At some point you have to address the elephant in the room, and answer why so many Mages are being so defensive, and I've been trying for years to help you out here.
The point is, with the really noticeable loss of Mage casting and damage abilities - these mages cannot kill anything, and are really defensive. They are relying on their team-mates to have synergy. They are not a threat on their own, and like I say, usually spend their time running away.
I also even say - I don't know anyone decent who uses one, you can nerf away for all I care, I just don't get why it is such a problem for you. These Mages have been nerfed into the ground, and are still going.
I'm not sure what Higgs is asking for.
All I'm asking for is a reduced block chance and reduced evade chance for people whose templates run casting skills - not getting rid of it completely. Now that you mention cooldown, maybe it should be longer for casters instead of reducing block chance.
The points I've raised in this thread aren't solely on Evasion which I understand this thread is about. I'm extending the thought to Parry and blocking altogether.
I feel a dexer has 0 chance of fighting a mage who can also block attacks. There is no opposite condition in which a mage would have 0 chance of fighting a dexer.
So Parry - 100, Bush - 100, Dex - 80 you get
Chance of blocking with a 1-handed weapon: 25%
Chance of blocking with a 2-handed weapon: 29%
I have mana issues, and I have maxed every way of getting mana without Med. - there you go, 1 mage
I can name others, but won't.
You are right, we've extended the conversation - re Evade, like I even say, you can do what you want with it. I'm just not sure why it is an issue. I'm happy to sign out here, I'm not in any major disagreement with you, and have nothing invested in this. But sometimes on changes like this, I'd like to know the real thinking and scenario behind it, because like I say, I play a lot, and am not seeing this.
The Damage Increase bonus from Enemy of One is subject to the DI PVP cap. Also, I believe it has a maximum increase of 16% in PVP? Who is dying to 1 hit from a dexer?
Anyways, I've posted my points.
If we can't agree that casters are superior in the dexers vs casters debate then this will never end.
Alls people are saying is they are OP with no real examples. What spells/equipment against what spells/equipment/builds with results. Say what ever you want but without hard facts/data then they are just words.
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The only example you've given is a dexer running Chiv and casting Enemy of One which proves exactly what?
I gave clear and valid explanations in my first post as to why there is an unbalance. You're choosing to ignore them and talk about Enemy of One. Hello?
My only guess is you play a Bokuto Mage and are clearly upset about having changes made to your template. That's an assumption though, of course, but I'm acknowledging it.
IT IS
I don't understand how some people come up with some of these opinions... Like do we play 2 different games? I've PVP'd on ATL, LS, GL, Cats, and Chessy, over the past 15 years with some breaks, originally starting on LS in 97. Not so much recently, maybe only about 4-8hrs a week on ATL. Currently running with number one PVP guild on the most populated shard. My opinions are based on my experiences with these shards during those times.
I know @CovenantX he's played a mage so much in UO that he's become one IRL. For him to come on the official forms and make a statement that maybe something may need to be nerfed in the case of a mage template then you know something's wrong.
What % is casting focus and poison immunity?
I stopped PvPing way before AoS but I PvE, less demanding on the fingers/wrists, and yes I have a Mage and it does nowhere the damage and of my Malee/Chiv chars do and I haven't met a Mage PvE that really gave me concern and in do way stood up against my Chiv/Archer.
So your saying that there is no build out there that can touch your Bush/Mage when evade at max lasts 8 secs with a cool down of 20 sec that they can not evade, so what the other char is waiting for you to regain evade before attacking again.
I reread your first post and there are ZERO facts in it. Exactly what where you evading and what happened to you after the evade wore off until you could reuse it, did you just run all over for 20 secs. Takes me a lot less time to heal myself than 20 sec so effectively you have done nothing to your attacker because they healed/spell wore off or what ever whilke you were hiding from them.
Yes, I completely understand now. Question, why do you feel you have an opinion on the current state of PVP when you don't PVP anymore?
The problem is we're experiencing two different games. With that, I'm going to see myself out of this discussion because at this point any dev that possibly read this thread can understand what's going on.
No offense to you or any other non-PVPers, you can't understand the current state of PVP unless you've experienced it nightly over at least a few months. This is the problem PVPers have had with the game for YEARS. The devs account for non-PVPer opinions regarding PVP, and change the game.
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I was asking what percentage of those 2 things attribute to the 90-95% of the pvp problems.
I don't know how to reply to each bit well, so I'm inserting it into your quotes. Bold Italics for my responses.
In some respects I agree with you, in others I don't.
I'd like to see Parry go back to Warriors.
I'd like to see pure Warriors make a return.
I'd like to see Parry off Mages. On the original topic of Evade - I just don't really see why this is an issue even. But - I'm quite happy for Evade to be taken off also - I just have not seen anyone explain why this is an issue.
But it's the how to do it I disagree on, just breaking Parry, will break the entire Mage class in pvp, they are using it, because they are forced to, many of us really don't want to. You need to understand why they are all using Parry, and give an option for when you break it.
I will ask you the Counter question - How many successful Pure Scribe mages do you see out there?
I personally would also like to see a parry drop chance for only the wrestle/anatomy parry combo on a mage as well. But that is a seperate issue not concerning the this discussion.
If spell casters are OP, wouldn't you want higher resists to counter that? Your DCI cap being 60 isn't going to save you from a standard parry mage or any kind of evade mage that isn't using a bokuto. If they shield bash, they have no mana. If they're using balakai wand they have zero ways to prevent you from running.
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