Deceit Paragons should not reveal Highest investment in Hiding/Stealth/Ninja + Mastery....

poppspopps Posts: 2,633
edited October 2020 in General Discussions
I understand that this was put in to contain scripters still, I do not see why Design changes to fight cheaters in Deceit should then penalize legit players...

I find it ridicolous that, if a players invests, all real points, mind you, 120 skill points into Stealthing,100 skill points into Hiding, 120 points into Ninjitsu and is also running the Ninjitsu Mastery 3 Shadow, not to mention being into Rat animal form which adds +20 to Stealthing to the already 120 Stealthing he/she got, the Deceit Paragons STILL reveal the template from a very large distance, across walls etc. etc.

A VERY large investment into all real skill points (340 skill points) is made useless because scripters need to be contained ?

And legittimate players always have to pay the price ?

Excuse me ?

Ain't it possible, please, to find other ways to fight scripters without having to screw up legittimate players who do not cheat and would only like to be able to play their favourite templates ?

When a Template has invested so heavily into Hiding/Stealthing then, to my opinion, that should work and realiably provide to that template the hiding and stealthing they are counting on.

Otherwise, what is the point of maximizing everything in Hiding/Stealthing if it is not going to work because....  "reasons" ?


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Comments

  • TimStTimSt Posts: 1,294
    How about a tweak? The only time paragons reveal someone is if they have non-ethereal pets with them. It goes directly after the behavior the devs are trying to stop. Tamers farming while invisible.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 5,157
    @popps you are constantly complaining about scripting.  Don't simulate their activities and you will be fine.

    All the treasures of... spawns will work like these.  The only change that needs done is the spectral swords need to be removed from paragons.  Takes forever to kill one.

    Also its not fun when they steal something and the corpse decays.  Items that mobs steal should fall to the ground when they decay.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    TimSt said:
    How about a tweak? The only time paragons reveal someone is if they have non-ethereal pets with them. It goes directly after the behavior the devs are trying to stop. Tamers farming while invisible.
    A Tweak ?

    I am all for it, but for a Tweak that actually LOOKS at a player's Template and what skills he/she has got, whether they are REAL skill points, if there is a Mastery being used like the Ninjutsu Shadow Mastery, whether it is being used at Level 3 etc. etc.

    And THEN it decides whether the investment of skill points and Masteries in that given Template is not sufficient to get it revealed have it get revealed....

    But only THEN, not by default simply because...... "reasons".....

    I understand that this way the coding gets more complicated and time consuming for the Developers as they have to "tailor" the revealing of the characters by their set-ups of skills, whether real or item skill points are being used, what Mastery and at what level is being used and all that, but I think that this is the correct way to go so as not to penalize legit players who do not cheat with the Template that they want to play....

    Yes, it is certainly easier and quicker to just make Deceit Paragons reveal everything that moves and be done with it, but I happen to think that it is not fair towards those players who so HEAVILY have invested real skill points in their Template, at the expense of other skills, in order to maximize their efficiency in Hiding and Stealthing.

    You want to have it not abused by players and scripters ?

    Just make it so that only those players who maximized their investment of REAL skill points into Hiding, Stealthing, Ninjitsu, the Shadow Mastery (that is a hefty 340 skill points taken only to benefit of a single one ability, that of staying hidden/stealthed.... PLUS, a Mastery taken too !! That does not leave much room for much else, does it ?) can benefit of staying hidden and stealthed no matter what....but please, do not take this ability away from those players who legittimately play such a template just because of scripters...

    Thanks.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    Pawain said:
    @ popps you are constantly complaining about scripting.  Don't simulate their activities and you will be fine.

    All the treasures of... spawns will work like these.  The only change that needs done is the spectral swords need to be removed from paragons.  Takes forever to kill one.

    Also its not fun when they steal something and the corpse decays.  Items that mobs steal should fall to the ground when they decay.
    Simulate scripters' activities ?

    Excuse me ?

    There is tons of legittimate playing that a Hider/Stealther can play with, and they should not be stopped in doing it just because of scripters, not at least if they invest HEAVILY into being able to reach that ability....

    To just WIPE AWAY a player's character's ability of Hiding/Stealthing with a few lines of codes even when such a player has invested so much and so heavily into all related skills and Mastery seems to me just not fair.

    I mean, we are talking of 340 REAL skill points (100 Hiding, 120 Stealthing, 120 Ninjiutsu) PLUS locking up a Mastery, Ninjitsu Level 3 Shadow, ONLY to be able to Hide and Stealth REALIABLY.

    It looks to me quite a hefty investment of skill points and the locking up of a Mastery into a single ability, right ?

    To take it away from players who play legit because of..... "reasons", to me looks way too excessive, at least, when the level of investment of the player into achieving this ability is so high....

    When everything is MAXED OUT, that is, a Template has 100 Hiding, 120 Stealthing, 120 Ninjitsu all REAL skill points, and is running on top of that a Shadow 3 Mastery, they should STAY hidden and Stealthed no matter what.

    NOTHING should be able to reveal them, period.

    At lower levels, of course, things would be different and the risk of getting revealed would increase as the investment in such an ability decreases.....

    That is how I see it.

    The Developers should not penalize legit players because of scripters, other tools should be found to fight them, but not tools which can penalize legittimate players who do not cheat but simply enjoy playing a Hider/Stealther.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 5,157
    popps said:
    You want to have it not abused by players and scripters ?

    Just make it so that only those players who maximized their investment of REAL skill points into Hiding, Stealthing, Ninjitsu, the Shadow Mastery (that is a hefty 340 skill points taken only to benefit of a single one ability, that of staying hidden/stealthed.... PLUS, a Mastery taken too !! That does not leave much room for much else, does it ?) can benefit of staying hidden and stealthed no matter what....but please, do not take this ability away from those players who legittimately play such a template just because of scripters...

    Thanks.
    You think the scripters wouldn't change templates to match?  This fixes the problem at a small cost.  Put those skills on a stone and build skills that can kill stuff without relying on crutches.
  • SethSeth Posts: 1,636
    edited October 2020
    I think with 340 skill points invested in stealth, hiding, and ninjitsu, maybe make it harder, but not impossible for paragons to reveal. Right now if its intentionally blocking the use of a skill - I don't quite like.

    For example, whoever designed Blood Oath is smart as it can kill a sampire suddenly without blocking his leeches permanently like tainted life. I think this is a good design, and not outright preventing/blocking us from using certain skills. lol.

    I am not asking for blood oath to be added to paragons, just saying that this is an example of innovative ways to challenge a powerful character template. If you block us from using a skill then might as well delete the skill.

    I am not going to discuss about scripters etc.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it

  • RockStaRRockStaR Posts: 168
    Seth said:
    I think with 340 skill points invested in stealth, hiding, and ninjitsu, maybe make it harder, but not impossible for paragons to reveal. Right now if its intentionally blocking the use of a skill - I don't quite like.

    For example, whoever designed Blood Oath is smart as it can kill a sampire suddenly without blocking his leeches permanently like tainted life. I think this is a good design, and not outright preventing/blocking us from using certain skills. lol.

    I am not asking for blood oath to be added to paragons, just saying that this is an example of innovative ways to challenge a powerful character template. If you block us from using a skill then might as well delete the skill.

    I am not going to discuss about scripters etc.
    Paragon monsters with Necro can already use blood oath lol. Ossein ram and lich/lich lords can.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    edited October 2020
    Seth said:
    I think with 340 skill points invested in stealth, hiding, and ninjitsu, maybe make it harder, but not impossible for paragons to reveal. Right now if its intentionally blocking the use of a skill - I don't quite like.

    For example, whoever designed Blood Oath is smart as it can kill a sampire suddenly without blocking his leeches permanently like tainted life. I think this is a good design, and not outright preventing/blocking us from using certain skills. lol.

    I am not asking for blood oath to be added to paragons, just saying that this is an example of innovative ways to challenge a powerful character template. If you block us from using a skill then might as well delete the skill.

    I am not going to discuss about scripters etc.
    I think with 340 skill points invested in stealth, hiding, and ninjitsu, maybe make it harder, but not impossible for paragons to reveal. Right now if its intentionally blocking the use of a skill - I don't quite like.
    My line of thinking is, that one should start from a given set up to provide full functionality (100% effectiveness aboud doing something) and then, go down to lower effectiveness as the level of set up diminishes....

    For example, let's look at how spells work.

    At 120 spellcasting skill, one never fails to cast a spell.

    Lower level spells can be cast 100% without fear of failure at even lower at lower skill.

    At lower levels, the success rate in casting a given spell goes down as the skill level is lower.

    The same should be, to my opinion, with Hiding and Stealthing.

    If one invests into them everything possible in the game, THEN, they should be able to stay hidden and stealthing and never get revealed no matter what.

    As if one was with having 120 spellcasting skill level and casting a spell.

    They invested so heavily into that spellcasting skill to precisely achieve that, the ability to cast also the highest level spells without fizzling.

    The same should be with Hiding and Stealthing.....

    Therefore, to my viewing, if one was to invest, all real skill points, 100 Hiding, 120 Stealthing, 120 Ninjitsu and, on top of that, also use the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery 3 (that is, as good as it can get, in regards to what a player can do in regards to Hiding and Stealthing), they should be granted full ability to stay hidden and stealthed no matter what.

    That is, the same as it happens with casting spells and having 120 in that spellcasting skill.

    Then, go down from there as the investment into Hiding, Stealthing and Ninjitsu "real" skill points diminishes, or if one does not use the Shadow Mastery and all that.

    My point being that, if one does ALL that exist in the game toward achieving a given ability, THEN, they should be granted the use of that ability 100%, no failures.

    We got that with most abilities in Ultima Online, spellcasting and the ability to not fizzle the casting of a spell just being one of the many examples possible.

    Especially, when the maximizing that ability is as expensive as investing 340 "real" skill points and locking up the use of a Mastery in order to achieve full perfection in the use of that ability (to hide and stealth without getting revealed).

    Certainly, to my opinion, as it is now with Paragons just revealing "flat out" anyone within a 10 tiles range, through walls and all that REGARDLESS what they may have invested into real Hiding, Stealthing, Ninjitsu skill points and regardless whether they might be using the Shadow Mastery or not (and what level of it), I find it extremely unfair and a slap into the face of all those players who invested so much and so heavily into perfecting the ability of their Template towards Hiding and Stealthing realiability.

    I really think that it should be changed, and that the ability of Paragons to reveal characters should be "adjusted" to respect the investment that a Template has done into Hiding, Stealthing, Ninjitsu and the Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery.

    That is at least how I see it.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 5,157
    Not gonna read the whole wall but @popps, if a mob paralyzes you while casting, the spell will fizzle even at 120 magery. If you played in the event, you would know this.
  • Ok guys the thing is fair in the Dev/Mesanna's Eyes.  Death is the main reason the critters are so hell bent on killing you.  This was not meant to be a cake walk.  If it was too easy you would bitch about the ease of it so high skilled players would get all the goodies like in EM events.  
    I understand this is a one size fits all event.    Ether grit your teeth and insure your junk to the max and go kill or Give it up and go do other things in game.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    Pawain said:
    Not gonna read the whole wall but @ popps, if a mob paralyzes you while casting, the spell will fizzle even at 120 magery. If you played in the event, you would know this.
    That is different as you'd be blocked in your casting "before" casting the spell.... and even then, a simple macro and a trap box would get around that, with no investment in skill whatsoever...

    I do not think it is anywhere comparable to a Template investing an expensive 340 real skill points into Hiding, Stealthing, Ninjitsu and locking one's own use onto a level 3 Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery and yet, even when doing all that (as much as one can possibly do), still getting revealed by Paragons left and right, 10 tiles away and across walls and all that...
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    Ok guys the thing is fair in the Dev/Mesanna's Eyes.  Death is the main reason the critters are so hell bent on killing you.  This was not meant to be a cake walk.  If it was too easy you would bitch about the ease of it so high skilled players would get all the goodies like in EM events.  
    I understand this is a one size fits all event.    Ether grit your teeth and insure your junk to the max and go kill or Give it up and go do other things in game.
    That is not the point.

    The point is that a huge investment in skill points is made totally useless, void, all for nothing....

    This should not be, to my opinion.

    There should always be a degree of functionality whereas a maxed out investment in a skill or a group of skills should guarantee the player the full functionality of that ability provided by that large investment of skill(s) and, instead, a reduced investment should bring back lesser results.

    In the case of Hiding and Stealthing, maxed out investment should guarantee staying hidden and stealthed, not revealed, while more reduced investments in those skills should open up the risk of getting revealed.

    It is simply NOT RIGHT, to my viewing, that a player with 340 real skill points invested into hiding, stealthing, ninjitsu and also uses a level 3 Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery, gets revealed just as easy and as well as another player who invested way much less into those skills (leaving room in the template for other skills possible to benefit from) and is even using some other Mastery....
  • SethSeth Posts: 1,636
    RockStaR said:
    Paragon monsters with Necro can already use blood oath lol. Ossein ram and lich/lich lords can.
    Its weird I have not experienced any BO from paragon on my shard. The only BO I got was from those weak mage and the effect is negligible.  
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it

  • TjalleTjalle Posts: 60
    Pawain said:
    popps said:
    You want to have it not abused by players and scripters ?

    Just make it so that only those players who maximized their investment of REAL skill points into Hiding, Stealthing, Ninjitsu, the Shadow Mastery (that is a hefty 340 skill points taken only to benefit of a single one ability, that of staying hidden/stealthed.... PLUS, a Mastery taken too !! That does not leave much room for much else, does it ?) can benefit of staying hidden and stealthed no matter what....but please, do not take this ability away from those players who legittimately play such a template just because of scripters...

    Thanks.
    You think the scripters wouldn't change templates to match?  This fixes the problem at a small cost.  Put those skills on a stone and build skills that can kill stuff without relying on crutches.

    On Siege, when the dungeon is filled with PKs, stealth is what allows some PvMers to still be able to do the content. Take stealth away and it´s guaranteed death down there which equals undoable content.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    edited October 2020
    Tjalle said:
    Pawain said:
    popps said:
    You want to have it not abused by players and scripters ?

    Just make it so that only those players who maximized their investment of REAL skill points into Hiding, Stealthing, Ninjitsu, the Shadow Mastery (that is a hefty 340 skill points taken only to benefit of a single one ability, that of staying hidden/stealthed.... PLUS, a Mastery taken too !! That does not leave much room for much else, does it ?) can benefit of staying hidden and stealthed no matter what....but please, do not take this ability away from those players who legittimately play such a template just because of scripters...

    Thanks.
    You think the scripters wouldn't change templates to match?  This fixes the problem at a small cost.  Put those skills on a stone and build skills that can kill stuff without relying on crutches.

    On Siege, when the dungeon is filled with PKs, stealth is what allows some PvMers to still be able to do the content. Take stealth away and it´s guaranteed death down there which equals undoable content.
    That is also a very good argument.

    I have no interest in playing that Shard (not my cup of tea) but I would imagine that Events like this are a curse for the few PvMers or even starting PvPers on Siege because they attract pkillers to the one place where the Event is being held at, like flies on s***.....

    Therefore, by taking away from PvM players and even still weak PvPers because only recently having started to play there, even if they heavily invest into Hiding and Stealthing (which makes them a weaker fighting template, consequentially), the ability to at least "try" to stay hidden from pkillers, they basically make the life of the very few PvMers that I imagine might still be fiercely resisting on Siege or, even for starting, but still weak PvPers, even more impossible.

    With the consequential result, that such Shard would then become even more barren of players as what I hear from people's posts that it might be, population wise, as compared to all of the other Shards....

    I mean, think about it, @Mesanna , @Kyronix , @Bleak , you recently came up with the idea of the New Legacy Shard so as to give to newcomers to Ultima Online a place where they can "grow" without always beeing put down by existing, veteran players who are way wealtheir, way more advanced and geared up as they might be.

    And that is both in PvM and in PvP, since in PvM, Veteran players gets of course top looting rights and take drops away from weaker PvMers while in PvP, it goes without saying, a weaker PvPer simply way easily gets killed by a Veteran PvPer with way more and better gear and gold to waste as compared to them.

    So, I need to imagine, that a "way" for PvMers or "weak" new PvPers to get by on Siege and be able to participate at these Events and get their drops even when having to compete against existing, Veteran Siege players and pkillers, should be something that the Developers should always make available to these players unless you guys want that Shard to even become more barren of players as what it might be....

    Being able to stay hidden and stealthed, regardless of Paragons, if having invested heavily on all related skills and Masteries, could be a good way to give to these PvM and weak PvP players a way to still participate to these Events regardless of the presence of much tougher, developed and geared up (and with lots of more wealth that they can burn) players' killers, also on that one PvP focused Shard.

    I can imagine from Prodo Felucca, how the situation might be on Siege... one or 2 zerg Guilds which grew as stronger, keeping everyone else out of these particular and location limited Event sites and being therefore able to farm them to their hearts contents leaving everyone else cut out from those items...

    This, in practical terms, results, to my viewing at least, in those already being stronger and wealthier being able to further accumulate more high end items and wealth, pretty much exclusively (since they are able to cut out all other players from that content...).

    These stronger Zerg Guilds, being able to farm the limited Event sites pretty much exclusively and cutting out any and all other players from access those items, likewise, can go around wearing all those high end items even if they can only bless 1 since they got able to farm so many of them that they don't care about losing them.... while all others who were cut out from those spawns because not able to compete against those Zerg Guilds, cannot afford losing those high end items or, most likely, do not even possess them in the first place as they were cut out from being able to earn them....

    The GAP between stronger, Veteran players and weaker, new ones widens and grows, as a consequence of your Design decisions and choices....

    As I said, this particularly on Siege, where there is not insurance and where only 1 item can be blessed, being able to farm high end items, exclusively, and stock them up, gives a hell of an advantage since these Zerg Guilds can then "afford" to loose way more high end items as any other players there who is cut out from those spawns could.

    So, to my humble opinion, the Developers should look into ways for "weaker" players to "also" be able to access content and drops from these " Treasures of... " new game content rather then instead, as you did with the Paragons revealing "no matter what", serving these weaks players into the hands of much stronger, well established and wealthier Veteran players their "easy" Targets on a silver platter by having them show up 100% guaranteed....

    Don't you guys (the  Developers...) realize that by introducing new game content and mechanics that helps the strongest and wealthiest players to become even further stronger and wealthier (because they pretty much can Monopolize the spawn and cut out anyone else from getting stuff from it) you are killing your own game's player base because, when players see the huge GAP that there is in between them and those stronger players against whom the have to compete, many get discouraged by the uphill battle that they face and leave Ultima Online althougether ?

    Anyways, of course you guys set the rules for gameplay with your Design choices, it is your game, I am only saying though, do not be surprised when people quit playing the game for good and if the players' base drops, when those Design choices taken, like this one of having the Paragons reveal anything, no matter what their investment into Hiding and Stealthing related skills and Masteries might be, might make game play impossible for those players who are hit by your Design choices.

    If I am allowed to give you some advice, a good change which you might put in, for these "Treasures of" Events, so as to help out weaker players to "catch up with" existing, Veteran and more advanced and wealthier players, at least for Felucca facets and Siege/Mugen, could be that of setting up the spawn to have "priorities"...

    If at a Spawn there is Reds and Blues alike, the MoBs would have as their FIRST and FOREMOST priority that of aggroing Reds there as first, leaving Blues be, unless they attack a given MoB who would of course respond, and only if there are no Reds in the area which the MoBs could attack as first, then they would go after Blues.

    And that would be also, for revealing. If there are 2 hidden characters, 1 red and a blue, the Red would be way more easily and promptly revealed by the MoBs in the area, as compared to the blue.

    Pkillers are better and more experienced players, right ? 

    Then, it would sound logical, balanced and obvious that your Design mechanics were to give them more trouble so as to more challenge their skills (so more interesting and challenging gameplay for them, rather then only giving them easy and unchallenging kills as it is now) and, in doing that, you would also give some "room" for weaker players to get better, get more high end items, build up their wealth, participate to these "Treasures of..." Events even when there is Zerg Red pkillers' Guilds monopolizing these Events, and so, finally allow these weaker players to be able to cover, over time, and by getting them also high end drops, that intimidating GAP in between them and the existing Veteran players who they need to compete against.

    That is at least how I see it.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 698
    This topic was already discussed at nauseam  back when it was piloted 2 months ago. The Devs put it in anyway. Probably time to accept it and move on. 
  • jelinidasjelinidas Posts: 322
    @popps

    Character setups are like pet setups, not all are good for all situations. Adjust, adapt and move on. And, if you think I'm reading all your novels,  your wrong. Play the damn game and quit writing effing books!
  • Popps, once and for all PACK IT IN. Stop with the boring essays. Cant you for once just be concise. Nobody reads all that drivel. You may actually have a good point but nobody inc the devs will ever know. Scale it down if you want people to read your posts.....
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    edited October 2020
    Popps, once and for all PACK IT IN. Stop with the boring essays. Cant you for once just be concise. Nobody reads all that drivel. You may actually have a good point but nobody inc the devs will ever know. Scale it down if you want people to read your posts.....
    This concise enough ?

    Siege argument = Good point.

    Current Design favours items only to those already having best Templates/being Strongest who can farm them at their hearts' content and cut other players out from these Events' Spawns as they cannot compete (either because being PvM or because being weaker/newer PvPers).

    Bad for players' populations as it promotes a large GAP between the haves and the haves not with the haves getting more and the haves not being cut out from any new content and high end items.

    Suggested a change to have MoBs have "priorities" when Reds and Blues are in their ranges : Aggro Reds and leave blues alone if both there and have a MoB only aggro Blues if it is attacked by that Blue. If no Reds are in range, Mob will aggro Blue just fine as now.
    Same with hiding/stealth, if in range there is a Red and a Blue hidden/stealthed the Red would be way more likely to get revealed as first, then aggroed, and only when Red is gone the Blue would have a chance of getting revealed.

    Reason for change is to give a more challenging play to best players (pkillers are the best players, right?), rather then an annoying easy play where they can kill their targets easy.... and also to help close that GAP between weaker and poorer players and wealthier and stronger players rather then instead always playing into the hands of those players who are already wealthier and stronger.

    Hope the summary is short enough.
  • Its much better for sure.

    However what evidence do you have to support your complaint, apart from a few mins gameplay. how many hours have you accrued in order to try to effect change. Have you emailed Mesanna asking for clarity?

    Do you have a samphire or a tamer, these seem to do well in the dungeon, its not all about stealth you know.

    Do you have any idea how many people will be affected by your complaints in ALL subjects in game? surely you have more than 1 char with diff skill sets to adapt to different situations?  Paragons reveal stealthier, then take another char in.
  • quickbladequickblade Posts: 198
    edited October 2020
    I dont understand what is the point of farming this event in stealth tho, clearly you are missing on what template is ideal for this , investing in stealth and hiding will clearly not help you kill the monsters faster, and you clearly wont be able to solo these high end paragons with that template, move on and invest in skills that do damage.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 698
    Exactly. Farming while stealth gives you less drops. First they will complain about not being able to stealth and then they will complain about not getting enough drops while stealthing.

    Side note - Good thing about auto reveal is that red stealthers in Fel have a hard time sneak attacking.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    Its much better for sure.

    However what evidence do you have to support your complaint, apart from a few mins gameplay. how many hours have you accrued in order to try to effect change. Have you emailed Mesanna asking for clarity?

    Do you have a samphire or a tamer, these seem to do well in the dungeon, its not all about stealth you know.

    Do you have any idea how many people will be affected by your complaints in ALL subjects in game? surely you have more than 1 char with diff skill sets to adapt to different situations?  Paragons reveal stealthier, then take another char in.
    I have hours spent in Deceit plus posts from fellow players but really, it only takes a few minutes to go down there with a maxed out Hider/Stealther to see how there is not a single chance to avoid being revealed by Paragons, regardless of the maxed out settings....

    When I say maxed out settings, I am talking of, all real skill points, mind you,

    - 100 Hiding
    - 120 Stealthing
    - 120 Ninjitsu
    - Level 3 Shadow Ninjitsu Mastery always active

    It did NOTHING, nada, nils, no help whatsoever in avoinding getting revealed by Paragons.

    And, mind you, they revealed as soon as the template reached 10 tiles distance from the Paragons and regardless of line of site.... that is, Paragons revealed across walls, across corners, anywhere and anytime.

    This is, frankly too much. It renders an enormous investment of skill points and the locking of a Mastery null, void, totally wasted.

    I EVEN tried, out of curiosity, the rats form which, supposedly, adds +20 Stealth skills thus reaching a fat 140 Stealth skill which should guarantee not getting revealed but it did nothing, as if I had not changed into that animal form....

    As I said in my OP, better ways should be found to fight scripters which do NOT hurt players' preferred gameplay and this, ESPECIALLY when the ability seeked by players involves such a huge investment in real skill points such as 340 skill points and the locking of a Level 3 Mastery.

    Breaking something (hiding and stealthing) to fix one thing (to go after scripters) is not a good way to do things, to my opinion.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    I dont understand what is the point of farming this event in stealth tho, clearly you are missing on what template is ideal for this , investing in stealth and hiding will clearly not help you kill the monsters faster, and you clearly wont be able to solo these high end paragons with that template, move on and invest in skills that do damage.
    You may have missed this Post here https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/47944/#Comment_47944 that well explains one of the possible needs for Hiding and Stealthing in certain circumstances, and also, there are players out there who do not have dozens of characters but only 1 or 2, maybe, and if their preferred Template, a hider and stealther is screwed by Paragons auto-revealing "no matter what", that makes their participation to the Treasures of the Undead Lords in Deceit basically not possible.

    Besides, the main argument that I am trying to raise is that it ain't right to break something (the ability of players who invested heavily into the ability of hiding and stealthing) in order to fix something else (make life difficult to scripters).

    This should be a valid argument for today, and also for the future.

    We have seen this many times in the past in Ultima Online.... to fix scripters script gathering resources what did Developers in the past do ?

    Make resouirces spawn randomly which screwed up way more the legittimate players rather then the scripters who just got their scripts run longers and still kepts gathering the resources they wanted regardless of the randomness...

    What I am trying to say, is that BEFORE putting in such a game breaking change (Paragons revealing anything no matter what), I am only saying that the Developers should think about all those players who legittimately play a Hider/Stealther and how enormously this is going to change their LEGITTIMATE game play.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 5,157
    What is your goal in Deceit?  To stealth around? Or kill stuff. You cant kill stuff while hidden.

    Others have told you. Use a template that works for an encounter. UO is not a cookie cutter.

    Do you take your stealther to Exodus?
  • JackFlashUkJackFlashUk Posts: 422
    edited October 2020
    popps said:
    Its much better for sure.

    However what evidence do you have to support your complaint, apart from a few mins gameplay. how many hours have you accrued in order to try to effect change. Have you emailed Mesanna asking for clarity?

    Do you have a samphire or a tamer, these seem to do well in the dungeon, its not all about stealth you know.

    Do you have any idea how many people will be affected by your complaints in ALL subjects in game? surely you have more than 1 char with diff skill sets to adapt to different situations?  Paragons reveal stealthier, then take another char in.
    I have hours spent in Deceit plus posts from fellow players but really, it only takes a few minutes to go down there with a maxed out Hider/Stealther to see how there is not a single chance to avoid being revealed by Paragons, regardless of the maxed out settings....

    When I say maxed out settings, I am talking of, all real skill points, mind you,

    - 100 Hiding
    - 120 Stealthing
    - 120 Ninjitsu
    - Level 3 Shadow Ninjitsu Mastery always active

    It did NOTHING, nada, nils, no help whatsoever in avoinding getting revealed by Paragons.

    And, mind you, they revealed as soon as the template reached 10 tiles distance from the Paragons and regardless of line of site.... that is, Paragons revealed across walls, across corners, anywhere and anytime.

    This is, frankly too much. It renders an enormous investment of skill points and the locking of a Mastery null, void, totally wasted.

    I EVEN tried, out of curiosity, the rats form which, supposedly, adds +20 Stealth skills thus reaching a fat 140 Stealth skill which should guarantee not getting revealed but it did nothing, as if I had not changed into that animal form....

    As I said in my OP, better ways should be found to fight scripters which do NOT hurt players' preferred gameplay and this, ESPECIALLY when the ability seeked by players involves such a huge investment in real skill points such as 340 skill points and the locking of a Level 3 Mastery.

    Breaking something (hiding and stealthing) to fix one thing (to go after scripters) is not a good way to do things, to my opinion.
    100% the WRONG template for this event. Adapt, use another char, surely you have a tamer or samphire ready to go?
  • You should not expect one character type to fit all events. This is not an event for a stealther. I have a bard, I love playing her, but there are places I know she's not the character to take. Creatures that can't be barded, Travesty who would use her skills against not only her, but anyone with her. Take a tamer or warrior. 
  • TyrathTyrath Posts: 380
      After a few days of realizing just how much I hate playing melee templates, I went back to using my stealth tamers and stealth mystic/mages effectively down there determined to find a way to make it work.  The stealth mystic/mage template just is not viable.  The Stealth Tamer Template I use is very viable and won't work unattended.  but invis potions, smoke bombs and max fc/fcr for quick invis are key when a paragon wanders within the 10 time range.  Quick invis to break them targetting you and retarget to yer pet and you can then run off the safe distance and hide again or run consume damage.  Works best on low pop shards where the fighter types are not constantly running around with every paragon ram and el in tow.  But I just stealthed between lvl 2 ent to the east area and the two rooms west and southwest  and pulled 34 in one hour using the store potion and died once.  Enough diversity walking that route to stay out of the diminishing returns toilet that this Dev team loves so much.  LOL Liberals and their "The harder you work the less you get mentality" even in video games :)

    Noticed zero difference in the drop rates between hidden and visible running consume. 

    Pets I am running are pretty much my lesser hiryus and trained up all 120s 2 slot reptalons with goo and FWW.  the Goo/FWW Reptalons did much better than the Bushi Hiryus and in comparision the Cus and Tritons were not even worth taking down there IMO but I don't have the must use a CU fetish for everything that many seem stricken with.

    Keeping Sacrifice at knight or close to it is real handy as well for the self rex and not having to get back to yer corpse.

     Store Potions made a huge difference in drop rates ran the second hour without using a pot and got 9 drops, 3rd hour with potion and got 21 drops, also running a max luck suit don't know if that makes a difference in the drop rate or not though.  But 6 hours worth of runs with potions and with out every other run 34-9-21-8-23-11  So the pots are worth using IMO if you spend more time alive and killing than you spend dead...... the pot timer does not care if yer alive or dead.

      Instead of complaining about what you can't do adapt and figure out what you can do.  One thing is certain is you get A LOT more drops if yer alive and killing than dead and running out to rez no matter which character template yer running :)

     The higher pop shards like ATL and LS is a different matter entirely and the CHiv, warrior, healer toon does MUCH better than the stealth tamer.  Oh and my points invested in stealthing is 190..... 100 hiding and 90 stealth.  Totally pointless to invest 340 points into a stealther in my experience even on Siege :)

      And that has been my experience with deceit in this event and what I am doing is working very well fer me, so I don't really care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.  Another couple of days and I will have enough to turn in across the 4 shards I play on to get everything I want from the shopping list. Which amounts to more Jawbones, spell books and eps
  • PawainPawain Posts: 5,157
    @tyrath ; Ill sell you a non shard bound 50% book for 200 points or 2 SSI epaulets.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,633
    Tyrath said:
      After a few days of realizing just how much I hate playing melee templates, I went back to using my stealth tamers and stealth mystic/mages effectively down there determined to find a way to make it work.  The stealth mystic/mage template just is not viable.  The Stealth Tamer Template I use is very viable and won't work unattended.  but invis potions, smoke bombs and max fc/fcr for quick invis are key when a paragon wanders within the 10 time range.  Quick invis to break them targetting you and retarget to yer pet and you can then run off the safe distance and hide again or run consume damage.  Works best on low pop shards where the fighter types are not constantly running around with every paragon ram and el in tow.  But I just stealthed between lvl 2 ent to the east area and the two rooms west and southwest  and pulled 34 in one hour using the store potion and died once.  Enough diversity walking that route to stay out of the diminishing returns toilet that this Dev team loves so much.  LOL Liberals and their "The harder you work the less you get mentality" even in video games :)

    Noticed zero difference in the drop rates between hidden and visible running consume. 

    Pets I am running are pretty much my lesser hiryus and trained up all 120s 2 slot reptalons with goo and FWW.  the Goo/FWW Reptalons did much better than the Bushi Hiryus and in comparision the Cus and Tritons were not even worth taking down there IMO but I don't have the must use a CU fetish for everything that many seem stricken with.

    Keeping Sacrifice at knight or close to it is real handy as well for the self rex and not having to get back to yer corpse.

     Store Potions made a huge difference in drop rates ran the second hour without using a pot and got 9 drops, 3rd hour with potion and got 21 drops, also running a max luck suit don't know if that makes a difference in the drop rate or not though.  But 6 hours worth of runs with potions and with out every other run 34-9-21-8-23-11  So the pots are worth using IMO if you spend more time alive and killing than you spend dead...... the pot timer does not care if yer alive or dead.

      Instead of complaining about what you can't do adapt and figure out what you can do.  One thing is certain is you get A LOT more drops if yer alive and killing than dead and running out to rez no matter which character template yer running :)

     The higher pop shards like ATL and LS is a different matter entirely and the CHiv, warrior, healer toon does MUCH better than the stealth tamer.  Oh and my points invested in stealthing is 190..... 100 hiding and 90 stealth.  Totally pointless to invest 340 points into a stealther in my experience even on Siege :)

      And that has been my experience with deceit in this event and what I am doing is working very well fer me, so I don't really care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.  Another couple of days and I will have enough to turn in across the 4 shards I play on to get everything I want from the shopping list. Which amounts to more Jawbones, spell books and eps
    Totally pointless to invest 340 points into a stealther in my experience even on Siege.
    This is what drives me mad.

    Not the Siege part, as I play on prodo, but the investing of 340 points into Hiding/Stealthing/Ninjitsu being totally pointless.....

    This is DEAD wrong, to my opinion, flat out.

    At lower levels sure, Paragons should reveal, but at THAT heck of an investment of real skill points?

    No way.

    This is what I am contesting. The need to address AFK scripters should have never ever killed that much of an investment of real skill points on a Template, to my opinion.
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