Requesting PvP Meta Changes

ReikoReiko Posts: 9
edited September 19 in PvP / VvV
While UO has seen some small changes to the PvP scene... the meta has grown stale isn't attracting new or returning players who prefer alternate play styles. The changes that have happened "recently" aren't PvP changes that bring forth anything meaningful to PvP.  

Instead of posting about how "x" and "y" should be fixed, perhaps post suggestions on things that can be reworked/adjusted so the meta shifts and we are presented with a new PvP scene? A bug fix to a mount, while good, isn't exactly shaking up how people play. Most modern and popular PvP games have regular balance patches that will nerf/buff various things to breath fresh air into a meta so players aren't just fighting with or against the same things over and over.

Some ideas:

Buffs to Necromancy school of magic.
  • Most of Necro is made useless from Enchanted Apples (curses), refresh pots (pain spike + Strangle dmg), EO+Poison combos (Cure Pots), amongst other things. Perhaps a way can be made to make Necro spells have more stick? Such as adding to the Necro mastery that prevents the dispel of Necro debuffs or some sort of consequence to those who spam ways to remove Necro debuffs
  • Making Conduit, Necro Spell Mastery, useful in more situations. Increase the area or reduce the penalty.
Buffs to Focused classes
  • Ways to buff those who get focused in a skill, like Magery. Pure mages suffer from not being able to go Parry
  • Revert SDI cap nerf for Pure Mages?
  • Focused Necro doesn't have usage for PvP. Could tie into buffs mentioned above.
  • Focused Chivalry? Buff to Holy Fist or some way to make EoO viable in PvP.
Buffs to Underused Skills in PvP
  • Increase bard mastery spells effectiveness in PvP. Allow the chance for a "support" template to shine in the Meta for teamfights/large champ spawn battles. Such as buffing Provo mastery Invigorate
  • Buffs to Poisoning. Currently underutilized from spamming of Cure Pots w/ EP. Poison mastery "Injected Strike", maybe make changes to make the lethal poison uncurable under certain conditions or add news poisons with different effects (Temp Reduce Skills, Pseudo Splinter, AOE dmg Poison, etc)
  • Stealth/Hiding/Ninjitsu: Combo of skills underutilized except for ganking, deathstrike, animal form for mobility, and stealth. Add bonus upon attacking from stealth? "Stealth attack". 
  • Imbuing vs Focus. Obviously everyone goes Focus w/ Mystic in PvP, maybe allow a branch path? If you go Focus, you do more damage w/ Mysticism. if you go Imbuing your support spells have more effectiveness (Buff to Cleansing Winds, Purge, Stun chance on Bombard etc)
  • Meditation - With how good suits can be now adays, Med isn't used. Create synergy w/ Mana Shield from Spellweaving to allow pseudo mage tanks.
  • Alchemy - I hated years ago when everyone would spam explosion pots at max range.. but perhaps a buff to Alchemy to make it more offensive when combined with certain things. 
  • Stealing: When combined w/ wrestling or a weapon skill that has capability to disarm, perhaps allow a passive % chance that attacks will disarm their opponent without having to use the special? Fits in the fantasy of "Stealing" their weapon. While this may be a bit OP, it may be balanced with a proper % chance and the fact that at a minimum 200 points (stealing/snoop) have to be used to obtain. Or even adding a Stealing mastery that gives a spell for a ranged disarm.
Variety in Weapons
  • Besides specials, could use some more rock-paper-scissors from other games on weapon skills. 
  • Buff up base damage on all the maces? Apply passive stamina damage on mace weapons in PvP? Allow maces to apply a debuff that prevents stamina regen for X amount of time? 
  • Fencing - Chance to proc extra swing at lower damage, with the idea that fencing is faster and can interrupt mages/casting easier. This extra "hit" won't proc hit spell or other effects. Purely for the interrupt.
Stuff I found that was done well: The Shield Bash from Parry Mastery. Spellweaving Mana Shield. These two allowed some variety in templates. Simple things that allowed skills to be utilized in different ways. 

Just some ideas. Regardless of what is said, everything and anything gets stale after playing with it for over a year. It would be nice if there was a rotating PvP meta, aka "seasons" from other games, where certain templates are the dominant and then fall out of favor for new ones to rise in meta.

Side Note: Like other popular game forums, troll posts/hate posts are generally just ignored/"down voted" and moved on. No good discussion ever comes out if every other thread is closed. 

Comments

  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    I think Alchemy is plenty offensive already. Someone killed me with alchemy this week.

    I’ll be honest, I don’t actually have a problem with PvP at the moment, it’s never been so balanced.

    Would be nice if they done something for VvV, like for one fixed the pricing of essence of courage, and stopped giving free silver to people who join. Maybe gave more silver for actually killing someone than claiming alter. 

    Shard Bounding powerscrolls would be the ultimate PvP boost
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • CookieCookie Posts: 610
    edited September 20

    It's never been so balanced, but it all revolves around Dismount...

    It's not even possible to play in teams without a dismounter.

    I prefer fast fluid tactical fights without dismount, because it's such a sucky way to go, and it's even worse when you get caught 1v5 and instant dismount death, there is no respect in that, there is no fun. I think it's the number one way to die, that makes players not come back.

    The other day, 4 of us, met a really poor team with a dismounter, they destroyed us for a good hour when we didn't use a dismounter, so we brought one in, and it was a game changer, we destroyed them when the teams were balanced in terms of dismounters, it makes that much difference.

    All dungeon fights, and all open area running fights, all need a dismounter to swing a battle, but they make it way too easy, it's an IWIN button. In dungeons, you can use fields far more, and cover up the need for dismounters partially. In VvV or openworld PvP you cannot.

    The other day, we used 4 dismounters in our team, and were completely unstoppable. But I still hate that that is how it is.

    It is even more pronounced now, with EC, and the speed EC Dexxers can dismount, it's completely instant, you don't stand a chance. Everyone is screaming out about speeders and the suchlike, I don't believe people are using speeders, it's just EC Dismount macro is off the scale in terms of speed.

    My Meta change, would be to move PvP away from Dismounting. Dismount forces everyone to have parry. Dismount is behind BOK mages stunning, so the target can be dismounted, it is behind splintering weapons so the target can be slowed then dismounted, etc etc. Dismount is behind Ninja forms for escaping, and so much stealth and hiding. The entire PvP set-up revolves around the worst aspect of PvP - That's when you know it is broken, when everything revolves around it.

    In the old days it used to revolve around tactical Mageplay. Move-counter move, it was much more fun.

  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598
    I think you're giving dismount too much credit on the demise of pvp. It's always been a major thing. The mid 00s during the golden era every guild had a dismounter. Everyone carried a bola. There was even an entire guild of nothing but stealth archers. 

    I haven't pvped in many years now with no plans on trying again. It's not skill anymore. It's who has the most plat to get suited and who has the most members on. 
  • CookieCookie Posts: 610
    edited September 20
    Urge said:
    I think you're giving dismount too much credit on the demise of pvp. It's always been a major thing. The mid 00s during the golden era every guild had a dismounter. Everyone carried a bola. There was even an entire guild of nothing but stealth archers. 

    I haven't pvped in many years now with no plans on trying again. It's not skill anymore. It's who has the most plat to get suited and who has the most members on. 


    Bolas were slow, it was very pronounced someone was going to use it, you had a chance to get away when you saw the bola swinging, you stood a chance.

    Now they've added in so many forms of Dismount, as a special on every type of weapon, there is absolutely no warning, and you would not believe how fast you get hit sometimes. I think Dismount needs to be removed off all weapons, just leaving bolas. In EC they can sprint up to you, Unmount, Dismount special, remount in less than the blink of an eye - for a move so overpowered, this kills PvP. Another suggestion could be that the Dexxer using a Dismount special is forced to remain on foot for 10 seconds after.

    I don't think I am giving it too much credit, I've been there the whole way from the start until now. (Ok aside from a large break, but I was there at the start, and now).

  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,146
    Urge said:
    I haven't pvped in many years now with no plans on trying again. It's not skill anymore. It's who has the most plat to get suited and who has the most members on. 
    AMEN
  • ezikelezikel Posts: 76
    Cookie said:
    Urge said:
    I think you're giving dismount too much credit on the demise of pvp. It's always been a major thing. The mid 00s during the golden era every guild had a dismounter. Everyone carried a bola. There was even an entire guild of nothing but stealth archers. 

    I haven't pvped in many years now with no plans on trying again. It's not skill anymore. It's who has the most plat to get suited and who has the most members on. 


    Bolas were slow, it was very pronounced someone was going to use it, you had a chance to get away when you saw the bola swinging, you stood a chance.

    Now they've added in so many forms of Dismount, as a special on every type of weapon, there is absolutely no warning, and you would not believe how fast you get hit sometimes. I think Dismount needs to be removed off all weapons, just leaving bolas. In EC they can sprint up to you, Unmount, Dismount special, remount in less than the blink of an eye - for a move so overpowered, this kills PvP. Another suggestion could be that the Dexxer using a Dismount special is forced to remain on foot for 10 seconds after.

    I don't think I am giving it too much credit, I've been there the whole way from the start until now. (Ok aside from a large break, but I was there at the start, and now).

    true right now the game only  turn around splintering and dismount .but i think you overestimate EC .its not more fast just more fluid and less laggy.but you get other stupid shit like you attack your pet went you remount or get footed by someone that not even close to you .we all know that the best dexxer are not using ec .
  • CookieCookie Posts: 610
    edited October 13
    ezikel said:
    We all know that the best dexxer are not using ec .


    If it is not EC, I'd be interested in knowing what it is?

    I genuinely don't know?

    I know of ****, I know people use this to autocure, autoheal, autoloot, relative tile wall cast, but I also know this causes a lot of them to crash randomly, so I smile when they crash, and kill them.

    I know of ****, and the incredible targetting features/UI this has.

    I know of *** scripts and how this can speed up CC for casters.

    I know of EC macros.

    But in the case of most dexxers, or incredibly fast players, it really seems to be that they are using EC client? It seems that client is so underused, they have an entire client to themselves, so are just speeding to the rest of us.

    I have never heard of a genuine speedhack program that genuinely works? I'm not sure it is even possible?

    My opinion is, if they are using something that is really game-breaking, it should be named, so players know what it is, and can deal with it. Or even the Developers can deal with it if it is that bad.


  • TailTail Posts: 43
    These are the Issues that I see and how I think one could go about changing them.

    #1 Issue - Dismount is being used by teams to kill (Solo and Team) players. This makes it impossible to be un-guilded.

    Possible Change: Make a Dismount Timer. If 10 players dismount me....and I am able to get remounted..they shouldn't be able to dismount me again 5-10 seconds later. They should have to Sync Dump me or find another way to kill me.

    #2 Issue: Necro Spells Need some love.

    Possible Change: Make strangle do more damage since its so easily removed, Increase Pain Spike Damage since you can only use it once really. 18 Damage isn't much for the low amount of damage. Maybe 25-30 would feel better. 18 was good when people could only fit 120 Hit Points on their suits but now its not been updated with the 150 hps everyone has now + all the HPR.

    #3 Issue: Inscribe should give better bonuses for pure mages. There is no Pure Mages anymore because the game no longer allows it. .

    Possible Change: Add Parry to pure mage and increase SDI for inscribe.

    #4 Issue: 10+man syncs are making the game not fun.Getting hit with 10 Hailstorms at the very same second (Thanks to Illegal Scripts . .and yes we all know its happening) What about lowering damage if you have been recently hit with that same spell multiple times?

    Possible Change: What about lowering damage if you have been recently hit with that same spell multiple times? 1st time full damage, 2nd time 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 1 damage.

    Just a few Ideas.


  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited September 20
    I have a slither, and 2 legendaries, i use the free VvV crytalline ring, the free VvV orni bracelet, and 2 legendary pieces of armour, the rest is imbued/reforged.

    I am sick of people saying PvP is item based.

    Although i might say it is more knowledge based, over skill based. A lot of people don't stand a chance because the game is so complex. And it doesn't help that the mannequin is going around telling people that spell damage increase is capped at 15% and that you can still have parry as a focus mage...

    I am definitely too old and partially blind, but somehow i manage to compete still.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598
    Mervyn said:
    I have a slither, and 2 legendaries, i use the free VvV crytalline ring, the free VvV orni bracelet, and 2 legendary pieces of armour, the rest is imbued/reforged.

    I am sick of people saying PvP is item based. 
    I've always been a fan and viewed your responses as completely well rounded and logical but this time i would like to point out that not everyone prefers or excels on a mage. A basic parry mage set up is relatively inexpensive but more damage producing hybrid templates require a lot more. 

    To make a max swing speed ai archer it takes items. Lot of very expensive items. Skill or knowledge just can not replace that. 
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598
    Tail said:
    These are the Issues that I see and how I think one could go about changing them.

    #1 Issue - Dismount is being used by teams to kill (Solo and Team) players. This makes it impossible to be un-guilded.

    Possible Change: Make a Dismount Timer. If 10 players dismount me....and I am able to get remounted..they shouldn't be able to dismount me again 5-10 seconds later. They should have to Sync Dump me or find another way to kill me.

    #2 Issue: Necro Spells Need some love.

    Possible Change: Make strangle do more damage since its so easily removed, Increase Pain Spike Damage since you can only use it once really. 18 Damage isn't much for the low amount of damage. Maybe 25-30 would feel better. 18 was good when people could only fit 120 Hit Points on their suits but now its not been updated with the 150 hps everyone has now + all the HPR.

    #3 Issue: Inscribe should give better bonuses for pure mages. There is no Pure Mages anymore because the game no longer allows it. .

    Possible Change: Add Parry to pure mage and increase SDI for inscribe.

    #4 Issue: 10+man syncs are making the game not fun.Getting hit with 10 Hailstorms at the very same second (Thanks to Illegal Scripts . .and yes we all know its happening) What about lowering damage if you have been recently hit with that same spell multiple times?

    Possible Change: What about lowering damage if you have been recently hit with that same spell multiple times? 1st time full damage, 2nd time 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 1 damage.

    Just a few Ideas.


    #2 i would give it a 60/40 shot for being resisted and take away apples removing it. I would go a step further and put a timer on when a stam potion could be used after pain spike. 

    The rest i totally back. Good ideas!
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 598
    Cookie said:
    Urge said:
    I think you're giving dismount too much credit on the demise of pvp. It's always been a major thing. The mid 00s during the golden era every guild had a dismounter. Everyone carried a bola. There was even an entire guild of nothing but stealth archers. 

    I haven't pvped in many years now with no plans on trying again. It's not skill anymore. It's who has the most plat to get suited and who has the most members on. 


    Bolas were slow, it was very pronounced someone was going to use it, you had a chance to get away when you saw the bola swinging, you stood a chance.

    Now they've added in so many forms of Dismount, as a special on every type of weapon, there is absolutely no warning, and you would not believe how fast you get hit sometimes. I think Dismount needs to be removed off all weapons, just leaving bolas. In EC they can sprint up to you, Unmount, Dismount special, remount in less than the blink of an eye - for a move so overpowered, this kills PvP. Another suggestion could be that the Dexxer using a Dismount special is forced to remain on foot for 10 seconds after.

    I don't think I am giving it too much credit, I've been there the whole way from the start until now. (Ok aside from a large break, but I was there at the start, and now).

    There was a time when you couldn't outrun a bola and it hit everytime. People figured out they could teleport 2x before it was thrown. People also timed it to dismount at just the right time it was thrown so it wouldn't hit them. Point is even then it was annoying as crap. 

    But i can see your point too. I've seen EC people and they do look so much faster. 
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited September 21
    Cookie raises an interesting point,

    The insta weapon switch which is now enabled on both classic as well as enhanced client gives the receiver 0 chance to interpret or predict the next attack special. 

    How about adding a delay to actually using a special attack when switching weapon? 
    Say you could only use a special if you’ve actually swung once with a non special attack.
    This would also return some functionality in actually choosing a weapon to use, because currently everyone can simply perform any special at any time. Which makes the idea of different weapons each having 2 carefully selected specials currently obsolete.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • I think a huge problem in pvp is the ridiculous amount of consumables and damage mitigation skills/spells.  It basically impossible for 1 person to kill another (1v1).   

    This a combined issue that has piled up over years of updates, starting with ability to go to 55 lmc, this allowing people on dexxers to literally spam specials.  Then refinements added in to increase resists to take less damage, then add in mana shield, weaving buffs, spirituality buff.  Then you still have 200 consumables to use after all that.  LOL.

    It was a consensus by everyone that when making pvp changes it should be based on 1v1, yet 1v1 has long been dead ever since all this came around with the major loot upgrades (which was completely ridiculous by the way).

    I think to start if you want to go to higher lmc, then you shouldnt be allowed the bonus of higher resists.  Get one or the other.  I would personally lower the lmc cap back down some, so there is some strategy back in the game instead of just spamming AI till they fall over.

    There is more to be adjusted but I think it all starts here first.
  • AniAni Posts: 14
    edited September 22

    PvP needs more attention than ever.  Minor changes do not fix major imbalances players have been complaining about for the past few years.

    Mages should not have to be forced to use Parry on every single template to defend themselves.  Some magery/necro spells are useless and don't put out enough damage alone.

    Players should be able to choose and customize more template variations so we are not stuck having to pick the "latest and greatest" template. 

    Also, I get people have their own play style but I thought PvP was supposed to be player vs player, not player vs bane dragons that can dismount bleed.

    VVV and town fights need a major improvement, some of us don't get enjoyment out of zerging 15v5.  This type of fighting is unfair to solo or players who prefer to compete in smaller groups.

    Suits: PvP should be more based on skill instead of looking for hard to find gear with 8 mods or abusing wall relative tile scripts and using overpowered pets.

    I don't know why they removed "Fire Fish Pies" but kept "refinements" for suits.  This is unfair to players who don't have time to build the best suit possible based off the "in" template.

    General global chat is poison.  Endless Journey account players should not be allowed to join chat except "help" channel.

    We shouldn't have to deal with people spamming personal real life attacks and derogatory filth for hours a day.  They need to crack down on this for the sake of UO's reputation.












  • jazz_handsjazz_hands Posts: 24
    edited November 4
    Another self serving post, it's like me saying bring back moving Armor ignore's, scratch that give me moving double shot. Your last Idea is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard a player say. Opps wrong again, Kat said to make all fights 1v1 and eliminate looting and a player that dies cannot be attacked for 5 min. LMAO
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