Does Sacrificing Fame for the Virtue of Sacrifice always yield same dots' gains ?

Whether one sacrifices 5,000 Fame, or 10,000 Fame or 20,000 Fame, does it always yield the same incemental number of dots towards the Virtue of Sacrifice ?

Let me explain my question better.

Say that Sacrificing 5,000 Fame yields 3 dots, would sacrifice 10,000 Fame yield 6 dots and sacrificing 20,000 Fame 12 dots ?

What I am trying to understand is, whether there is a linear pattern towards earning dots for the Virtue of Sacrifice or whether it goes with an entire other Formula.

Does anyone know ?

Comments

  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,194
    You cant test this yourself?
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,795
    Pawain said:
    You cant test this yourself?
    I tried, but I seem to get strange results.... maybe it depends on whether one starts at zero, or is seeker or is follower ?

    I am trying to understand whether there is any logic in how gains work but am having a hard time to find a pattern, if one exists to start with....
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,194
    edited August 23
    Read about it here: https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/the-virtues/

    If you really want to learn to use it, read on and do what I tell you.

    The only use for this virtue is the self res.  When you have 10k Fame you go to a mob such as a Lich.
    You use the virtue, you are now a Knight of this virtue and it is full. You now have a 24 hour period to use the self res.

    There is little benefit in doing this in under 10k fame increments, you still need the total 10k to be Knight.

    My main guys have Spellweaving, I don't waste my fame on this virtue.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,795
    Oh, I know how the Sacrifice Virtue works, have been using it for long now and, by the way, it is way better as the Gift of Life from Spellweaving....

    How so ?

    Because Gift of Life gets one stuck to only use it where one died.... unfortunately, if one died, this means that the chances are that, by resurrecting with Gift of Life in that same one spot, one would get rez killed by the MOBs which caused the death.....

    Sacrifice, instead, permits one to "walk away" in Ghost and resurrect at a safe place and, also, get one's own all belongings saved anything which a Monster may have looted already.

    This is, to my opinion, how Gift of Life from Spellweaving should work https://forum.uo.com/discussion/6168/spellweavings-gift-of-live-not-much-usefull-as-it-is ;

    What I need to better understand now, is the "process" through which one can gain in the Sacrifice Virtue towards becoming a Knight.

    The thing is, that Fame has "diminishing" earning rates.....

    For example, if one starts at 0 Fame, say that a given Monster was to give 300 Fame per kill at 0 Fame, as one goes up in Fame, say at 5,000 Fame, that 300 Fame decreases and, now, every kill only yields, say, 250 Fame....

    What I am trying to say is, that the higher one's own Fame gets (10,000, 15,000, 20,000 etc.) the more kills (and thus spend more time) one needs to invest in order to gain that same Fame....

    For example, say that it takes 18 kills of a given Monster to go from 0 to 5,000 Fame, to go from 5,000 Fame to 10,000 it would not take another 18 kills of that Monster, but likely, instead, some 30 kills..... this, because of the diminishing returns in Fame gains as one goes up in Fame.

    Of course, though, killing that same Monster for the purpose of Fame farming takes the same time so, what happens here, is that if to go from 0 to 5,000 Fame one needs an hour or so, to go from 5,000 to 10,000 Fame one would need 2 hours or so.

    This are just made up figures for the sake of the discussion, of course some players are faster in killing while others are slower and some even script kill and so they do not care how much time it takes them to farm Fame....

    Anyways, "if" the amount of Fame turned in towards earning the Sacrifice Virtue is linear, then, I see it pointless to wait until one's own Fame is higher before Sacrificing it.... it would only increase the time to get Knight....

    For example, if Sacrificing 5,000 Fame gets 3 dots, and Sacrificing 10,000 Fame gets 6 dots, and Sacrificing 20,000 Fame gets 12 dots (a Linear Progression), since the earning of Fame as diminishing returns, it is more beneficial and time efficient to actually Sacrifice at lower Fame Levels rather then higher Fame Levels which take more time to reach.

    If, instead, the Virtue of Sacrifice gainining progression is not Linear, but a different one with higher Fame actually yielding more dots of gain.

    In my example above, it would be like Sacrificing 5,000 Fame yielding 3 dots, Sacrificing 10,000 Fame yielding 8 dots (more then Sacrificing 2 times 5,000 Fame) and Sacrificing 20,000 Fame yielding 20 dots which would be more then Sacrificing 2 times 10,000 Fame or 4 times 5,000 Fame.....

    Did I exmplain myself well enough ?

    What I am trying to understand, the bottom line of it is, is whether it is more efficient and beneficial towards having to waste less time, to Sacrifice Fame at a lower level or at a higher level.

    I searched the various UO info sites and Forums looking for this but could not find it anywhere.

    Anyone has any idea of how it really works ?
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited August 23
    It’s been a while but I found having higher fame and sacrificing a higher famed creature (succubus in fel)gave the greater gains. 

    I may be wrong.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,194
    edited August 23
    @popps I told you already but you had to write a book instead.  10K fame gives full Knight status.

    Why mess around trying to get partial status?  it makes you start from 0 fame.  Just do it when you are at 10k fame.

    Or, you can test like this:  resetting to 0 sacrifice after each.

    Get 7k fame use it on the mob you will be using.  See how high it is.

    Get 8k fame use it on the mob you will be using.  See how high it is.

    Get 9k fame use it on the mob you will be using.  See how high it is.

    Get 10k fame use it on the mob you will be using.  See how high it is. (it will be max)

    If you find you need less than 10k, great!
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,194
    Mervyn said:
    It’s been a while but I found having higher fame and sacrificing a higher famed creature (succubus in fel)gave the greater gains. 

    I may be wrong.
    I know what you are doing. You want him to go to a place where he uses it and dies when the next one spawns.  Evil man.  hehe
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,795
    Mervyn said:
    It’s been a while but I found having higher fame and sacrificing a higher famed creature (succubus in fel)gave the greater gains. 

    I may be wrong.
    Actually, according to https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/the-virtues/
    The following is a list of monsters which may be redeemed with the sacrifice of one’s Fame:LichEnslaved GargoyleGargoyle Enforcer(Regular) DemonSuccubusEvil Mage
    If the list (as it looks like, at least to my viewing...) goes from the weakest to the hardest creature, the grandest gains should not be Sacrificing to a Succubus but to an Evil Mage.....

    As in regards to the circumstance where having higher fame gives the higher gains, that comes without saying.

    What I am trying to find out, though, is whether Fame Level and gains obtained through Sacrificing is a "linear" thing or whether gains in the Sacrifice Virtue become "exponential" the higher the Fame that one Sacrifices...

    The answer to this would consequentially indicate whether it would be preferable to Sacrifice a whole chunk of Fame in 1 go for maximized Sacrifice Virtue gains, or whether it would be more efficient and less time consuming to Sacrifice smaller Fame in various steps....
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,795
    edited August 23
    Pawain said:
    @ popps I told you already but you had to write a book instead.  10K fame gives full Knight status.

    Why mess around trying to get partial status?  it makes you start from 0 fame.  Just do it when you are at 10k fame.

    Or, you can test like this:  resetting to 0 sacrifice after each.

    Get 7k fame use it on the mob you will be using.  See how high it is.

    Get 8k fame use it on the mob you will be using.  See how high it is.

    Get 9k fame use it on the mob you will be using.  See how high it is.

    Get 10k fame use it on the mob you will be using.  See how high it is. (it will be max)

    If you find you need less than 10k, great!
    I told you already but you had to write a book instead.  10K fame gives full Knight status.
    Are you serious ?

    From 0 in the Virtue of Sacrifice to Knight of Sacrifice with only Sacrificing 10,000 Fame ?

    That is, 30 dots of gains (10 for Seeker, 10 for Follower and 10 to Knight) just Sacrificing 10,000 Fame in 1 go ?

    Hallo ?
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,194
    edited August 23
    Yes. That's how it works. I told you twice already.

    These type virtues are scaled in difficulty. Are you sure you have used this?
    No easy button.
  • TimStTimSt Posts: 1,058
    @Pawain, I used 14k on a demon and only got 6 dots of sacrifice.  That is not a good rate of return.
  • SethSeth Posts: 718
    In my memory, I think to get knight need around 3 to 4 rounds of 10k+ fame donation.

    But this is not an issue either, I would prefer not to die too often because of insurance cost. One death is 15 -20k.
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited August 24
    popps said:
    Mervyn said:
    It’s been a while but I found having higher fame and sacrificing a higher famed creature (succubus in fel)gave the greater gains. 

    I may be wrong.
    Actually, according to https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/the-virtues/
    The following is a list of monsters which may be redeemed with the sacrifice of one’s Fame:LichEnslaved GargoyleGargoyle Enforcer(Regular) DemonSuccubusEvil Mage
    If the list goes from the weakest to the hardest creature, the grandest gains should not be Sacrificing to a Succubus but to an Evil Mage..
    You’ll probably find this list is in order of whatever Mariah could remember first :p 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • SethSeth Posts: 718
    Will be good if there is info of the gain with virtue shield. That will help us decide if it is worth buying it from the store.
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • Garth_GreyGarth_Grey Posts: 1,094
    I"ve never been a fan of how Fame was coded. If you have high fame, you kill something huge and you get " you have a gained a little fame" . But regardless of your level of Fame, when you die, you lose a horrendous amount that never equals the largest amount you can gain...
    You and Several Others like this.


    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,194
    edited August 24
    TimSt said:
    @ Pawain, I used 14k on a demon and only got 6 dots of sacrifice.  That is not a good rate of return.
    Use a Lich they must give different amounts. I did not know other things could be used. Demon too easy.
  • Mene_DrachenfelsMene_Drachenfels Posts: 95
    edited August 24
    Beat me or not ;) but please do not confuse the Knight State of the Virtue  with the Lord or Lady State!!!

    To short this.:
    You need 30 blue "pearls" in Sacrifice-Virtue to be Knight of Sacrifice
    10 Blue Pearls : Seeker of Sacrifice
    20 Blue Pearls: Follower of Sacrifice

    10 K Fame give you the Lord or Lady Status that you can sacrify at f.e. a demon.
    Peerless Minis like Miasma f.e. give you massiv fame to gain fast the Lord or Lady State. You can also sacrify at lower fame points - and this only one time the day ! Than you have to gain again for Lord or Lady State before you can bring your next sacrify ;).

    In the lower state of making Sacrifice Virtue on the way to seeker you gain you get more points sacrifying them than on the Follower and Knights Way. Which again depends on whether one gets more or less blue "pearls" escapes my knowlegde - this is either higher mathematics or a long hidden secret which I do not understand ... and really - must I always understand all the game mechanics????



    A little less ego-thinking, know-it-all and rumbling compared to others who aren't so "great" and the UO-life would be a whole corner easier

    (Ein bisschen weniger Ego-Denken, Besserwisserei und Rumprollerei anderen gegenüber die halt nicht so "toll sind" und das UO-Leben wäre ne ganze Ecke einfacher)







  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,316Moderator
    Different creatures give different fame, but sacrificing that fame gives the same result. The number of blue dots you get in return for that fame will depend on your level. I have not recorded the exact number of dots earned at each level.
    Always sacrifice at 'lord/lady' with 10k fame, taking it higher than that has no benefit
    0 to seeker needs less sacrifices than seeker to follower, and follower to knight only gets 3 dots per sacrifice.
    My personal choice when farming fame is Demon Temple in Fel, where I can also sacrifice the fame once I hit the 10k target. As a side benefit I sometimes find a cache treasure map.
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,316Moderator
    Pawain said:

    You use the virtue, you are now a Knight of this virtue and it is full. You now have a 24 hour period to use the self res.
    Sorry, but you are totally wrong on this.
    1. one sacrifice will not take you to knight, you will need many, each sacrifice earns blue dots until you eventually reach knight.
    2. There is no time limit on the virtue
    3. Each self res uses up some of the virtue, not all. It will only slowly go back down to none if you don't top it up. (or not so slowly if you die frequently as many of us did in the recent 'treasures' testing events :D )
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,795
    Mervyn said:
    popps said:
    Mervyn said:
    It’s been a while but I found having higher fame and sacrificing a higher famed creature (succubus in fel)gave the greater gains. 

    I may be wrong.
    Actually, according to https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/the-virtues/
    The following is a list of monsters which may be redeemed with the sacrifice of one’s Fame:LichEnslaved GargoyleGargoyle Enforcer(Regular) DemonSuccubusEvil Mage
    If the list goes from the weakest to the hardest creature, the grandest gains should not be Sacrificing to a Succubus but to an Evil Mage..
    You’ll probably find this list is in order of whatever Mariah could remember first :p 
    In such a case, perhaps @Mariah might want to adjust it in the order going from weakest to hardest Creature ?

    The reason for saying this, is that "if", and I am stressing the "if", the gains are greater if one Sacrifices Fame onto the hardest Creature, perhaps, it would be better # 1 to mention this in the WIki and # 2 to indicate what Creature would be the hardest (putting it on top of that list...) so that players getting to that Wiki page for reference would know that, if they want the grandest gains fro Sacrificing their Fame, they should do it onto the hardest Creature and not one of the weakest ?

    Personally, I took that Evil Mage, being the last in that list, as the one that would give me the highest gains from Sacrificing my Fame...

    In doing that, I assume, I have lost perhaps quite a few dots which I could have gained if I had Sacrificed my Fame to a Succubus, rather....
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,795
    I"ve never been a fan of how Fame was coded. If you have high fame, you kill something huge and you get " you have a gained a little fame" . But regardless of your level of Fame, when you die, you lose a horrendous amount that never equals the largest amount you can gain...
    Indeed, that is another point....

    When trying to gain the Sacrifice Virtue, dieing does not help since if loses a whole lot of Fame which, instead, one could have Sacrificed and get progress towards becoming a Knight in that Virtue...

    This is another valid issue on why I would like to assess whether dots gains are "Linear" with higher Fame Sacrificed just giving same dots gains, proportionally (that is, my example of 5,000 Fame giving 3 dots, 10,000 Fame giving 6 dots, 20,000 Fame giving 12 dots... a linear progression) or whether it is "Exponential" with higher Fame Sacrificed giving a higher return in dots gained (in my example above, 5,000 Fame yielding 3 dots,10,000 Fame yielding 8 dots -more then Sacrificing 2 times 5,000 Fame- and Sacrificing 20,000 Fame yielding 20 dots which would be more then Sacrificing 2 times 10,000 Fame or 4 times 5,000 Fame.....).

    The reason for this being that, if the progression is linear, then it would be more advisable, to my opinion, to Sacrifice smaller installments of Fame, say 5,000 or at most 10,000 per Sacrifice, so as to avoid losing any to death and also, since Fame gains are with diminishing returns.

    If the Virtue progression is not linear but exponential, of course, it would be instead more efficient to get as much close to 30,000 Fame before Sacrificing in order to gain the most dots from it BUT, of course, this would expose one to lose a whole lot of it upon dieing and having to regain it all back which it is a waste of time....

    So, determining whether the Virtue of Sacrifice gains are linear or exponential looks to me quite important to then decide what would be the best behaviour to follow to Sacrifice one's own Fame.
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,316Moderator
    In point of fact, the list is exactly as it was given in the publish notes:
    The notes, and the virtue page, also quite clearly say
    The character will gain a certain amount in Sacrifice, depending on how much Fame was lost in the redemption, the greater the Fame loss, the more Sacrifice is gained
    The creature you choose to sacrifice your fame to is irrelevant. It is the amount of fame sacrificed that determines the amount of virtue gained.

  • poppspopps Posts: 1,795
    Mariah said:
    Different creatures give different fame, but sacrificing that fame gives the same result. The number of blue dots you get in return for that fame will depend on your level. I have not recorded the exact number of dots earned at each level.
    Always sacrifice at 'lord/lady' with 10k fame, taking it higher than that has no benefit
    0 to seeker needs less sacrifices than seeker to follower, and follower to knight only gets 3 dots per sacrifice.
    My personal choice when farming fame is Demon Temple in Fel, where I can also sacrifice the fame once I hit the 10k target. As a side benefit I sometimes find a cache treasure map.
    Always sacrifice at 'lord/lady' with 10k fame, taking it higher than that has no benefit
    This is a fundamental information to know, to my opinion.....

    As others have said, upon dieing one loses a whole lot of Fame which, to be gotten back, especially at higher levels, takes a lot of time and kills.

    Therefore, if taking Fame any higher then 10k does not bring any "additional" benefit, I do not see the point to take it, for example, up to 20k or even 30k before Sacrificing it....

    Going that high in Fame would only increase the risk of dieing and thus losing a whole chunk of it thus then having to waste time to gain it back.

    By doing some further research on the topic, though, I read at https://www.uoguide.com/Sacrifice the following paragraph.... 
    Sacrificing may only be done once per 24 hour period. You have to be at least "Great" to be able to sacrifice - the higher your reputation level, the further you advance on your Virtue path. Sacrificing a Lord/Lady title will yield far more progress than just a Great or Glorious status. Also, the more powerful a monster is you sacrifice to, the more you gain. You will have no fame remaining after a successful sacrifice. 
    I highlighted in Bold the part which I find not sufficiently clear.

    "the higher your reputation level, the further you advance on your Virtue path."

    Is that meant on a "Linear" Basis whereas, in my example, 5,000 Fame gives 3 dots, 10,000 Fame gives 6 dots, 20,000 Fame gives 12 dots ?

    Such a progression "still" fullfills the statement "the higher your reputation level, the further you advance on your Virtue path".....
     
    Or is it perhaps meant in the sense of my second example, the "exponential" gains, whereas higher Fame Sacrificed would give an increasingly higher return in dots gained.
    My example, for the sake of the discussion, with totally made up figures, indicated 5,000 Fame yielding 3 dots,10,000 Fame yielding 8 dots -more then Sacrificing 2 times 5,000 Fame- and Sacrificing 20,000 Fame yielding 20 dots which would be more then Sacrificing 2 times 10,000 Fame or 4 times 5,000 Fame.....

    Also such an exponential gains progression would "still" fullfill the statement "the higher your reputation level, the further you advance on your Virtue path".....

    So, what is the actual way that gains work ?

    Reading your statement
    Always sacrifice at 'lord/lady' with 10k fame, taking it higher than that has no benefit
    seems to make me understand that the Virtue of Sacrifice gains progession is then "Linear" and that, therefore, there would be no "additional" benefits towards higher gains when Sacrificing Fame at higher Levels ?

    I mean, working Fame up to 20,000 or even 30,000 before Sacrificing, if it was not to provide "greater" gains as compared to Sacrificing 10,000 Fame and, by saying that, I mean greater then "double" or "triple" gains as compared to Sacrificing 10,000 Fame when Sacrificing 20k or 30k Fame, then it would be pontless and actually very risky to wait too long before Sacrificing one's own Fame....

    Risky, because there would be of course always the chance of dieing and losing a whole lot of Fame from it thus having to then waste a whole lot of time to gain it back....
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,316Moderator
    1. Fame is earned in diminishing returns, the higher your fame the less you will get from a particular monster, therefore getting beyond 10k is difficult and slow. I have never taken fame beyond 15k when working towards sacrifice, and at that point virtue gained was the same as at 10k
    2. 10k is the point at which the character earns the lord or lady title. There is no fame title beyond that point, you cannot gain any more reputation.
    3. As previously stated the amount of progress gained through the virtue levels decreases as you go higher. It takes more effort/sacrifices to get from follower to knight than it does to get from seeker to follower.
    4. UOGuide says the more powerful a monster is you sacrifice to, the more you gain.
    I can find no publish notes stating this and do not, at this time, know whether that is correct or not. IF I can find the source of that statement, or can prove it via testing, I will edit the wiki accordingly

  • TimTim Posts: 618
    Since you mentioned T-Maps the "hag quest" also provides Sacrifice points.
  • ChrilleChrille Posts: 104
    Mariah said:
    3. Each self res uses up some of the virtue, not all. It will only slowly go back down to none if you don't top it up. 
    At knight you have 3 self res per week without loosing any virtuepoints.
  • MissEMissE Posts: 728
    Chrille said:
    Mariah said:
    3. Each self res uses up some of the virtue, not all. It will only slowly go back down to none if you don't top it up. 
    At knight you have 3 self res per week without loosing any virtuepoints.

    Actually I think that is now wrong, it changed. It used to be that you could only sacrifice 3 times a week and after that it wouldn't let you sac again, but now  you can sacrifice many more times than that until  your virtue level runs out.  I have used sacrifice 5-6 or more times in a week sometimes draining my sac down to seeker level :( when there has been a new event on which requires a few deaths til you get it worked out.   I now if  I have used the sacrifice 3-4 time in any one go I ensure I go work fame and sacrifice as much as possible over the week to keep it from dropping too far.

    Cheers MissE

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