Parry on PvP
good evening
I come here to complain about Parry that is very strong in these servers, Nowadays you can not hit the target on account of Dci and still Parry and all players are adding parry in their pvps because it is very overpower
Mage for example with parry gets almost immortal due to defense
can heal in a matter of seconds and yet the enemy misses all the damage due to the dci and parry
I would like to know when you are programming a change to the skill Parry
I come here to complain about Parry that is very strong in these servers, Nowadays you can not hit the target on account of Dci and still Parry and all players are adding parry in their pvps because it is very overpower
Mage for example with parry gets almost immortal due to defense
can heal in a matter of seconds and yet the enemy misses all the damage due to the dci and parry
I would like to know when you are programming a change to the skill Parry
Comments
To give an alternative viewpoint;
People are taking Parry up because they have to, they are forced to, because short range weapon users are way too strong. Dismount is a huge issue, short range weapon users are now able to do this entire operation so fast you don't stand a chance. Everyone has become a weapon user, so the remaining mages are having to take up Parry.
I don't use Parry on my mage, and my only alternative right now, is to quit PvP.
I know an entire group of mages, some with, some without parry, who are winding down their PvP in the current scenario.
Parry is not the disease, it is the only a symptom. Fix the main issues, and parry won't be required so much.
I guess it depends on what scenario you PvP in, but in an open running group/solo battle, mages without parry don't stand a chance right now, they are being ripped to shreds.
In a close confined space, a mage without parry, can just about get away with it, if there is an entire group of you, and you have the entire place fielded up. Remember, Mages with Parry, sacrifice 80 Statpoints that have no other purpose than just to make parry work - which is 80 statpoints they need in mana to cast a decent amount of spells. Parry disadvantages mages so much, that if you like to cast spells, like I do, you can't cast enough.
How much Mana do I require to play a mage = 200. Much like Dexxers often aim to reach for 200ish Stamina. You try fitting 125 Str+80 Dex+150 Int = 355 Stat Points into your template, then building the +25HP increase on, then the +50 Int increase (= 430 required Statpoints), it's not possible imo, also to reach all the other required maximums. My point is here - to achieve 80 Dex, Parry Mages sacrifice a lot, those 80 points in Dex, do nothing else useful for a mage, whereas Weapon users can use all their stats to very good purpose, and they do.
So currently Mages have the option of having Parry and being able to survive at least - but not being able to cast much, or having no Parry and being able to cast a decent amount of spells - but get ripped to shreds in PvP.
I would personally, be ok if Parry as a requirement was dropped, we could survive without it, but I want the ability to cast a decent volume of spells.
Hi Higgs,
I would like to see a return of pure warriors myself. I think the big issue for them, is the main skill - healing, which is what you'd expect to be the main healing skill, is so weak in comparison to other methods - hence the rise of bushido, or sampires. Buff healing massively, to enable pure warriors to compete I believe.
Regarding the 66% block rate, ie 1 in 3 success chance of hitting, it only takes that 1 hit for you to be dismounted, and it's game over for the mage - it's that little fun out there right now. You may only have a 1 in 3 chance, but that 1 hit is all you need and the mage is ganked to pieces.
And no matter how you look at it, getting 80 Dex , 150 HP, and 200 mana, is not easy, easpecially to maintain all the other maximum stats you need. When I run a parry mage - I cannot kill any spawn to actually pvm. It completely ruins the mage.
The issue of pvming on a mage is completely different problem. The fix to mage pvm is actually pretty simple, just add leeching benefits to spellbooks.
The 66% block rate doenst include the hci/dci check which can cause them to miss as well as the 5% chance to just straight wiff for no reason. There is literally 4 checks the dexxer has to make it through to hit you one time which is completely absurd. This is based on 1v1 fight because ganking is ganking no matter what template your playing. The parry mage will always have the 4 checks every swing no matter what, whereas any other weapon skilled template can have their checks reduced by disarming. If wrestling was actually seen as a weapon skill like swords they wouldn't be able to chug while still having the max defense of the template. That's the issue with the setup. Every template in the game has some kind of penalty to either offense or defense, whether it be disarm or mana vamp or whatever. The wrestle parry mage in pvp has no penalty to play it all. Their numbers on offense and defense will always be the same no matter what. That is what needs to be fixed. Look at it like this, if bushido chars could still evade damage while disarmed would that be ok? I don't care if parry mages are played its just the combination of wrestle/anatomy with parry that needs to be adjusted.
All I know from experience right now, of playing a mage without parry, is it is not possible to match the dexxers.
So parry has to add additional benefit, and I've explained all the negatives having parry does to a mage, so many, I don't even like playing it. So I have no issue if parry were not a requirement, but we need some other protection v Dexxers right now, as without parry, I cannot PvP, I'm one of the only ones even trying it. I would like Weapon Skill Dismount Special nerfed, in response to Parry being nerfed, that may balance the playing field.
Right now, without Parry, dexxers instant hit every time, dismount, gank, dead.
That is pvp right now, you cannot discount it by saying ganking is ganking. Everyone PvP's in a team, and if you are being wiped out that fast, it's no use.
I always find myself wondering where you get your information from.
Since you're an expert I shouldn't have to explain that there are only 2 checks, HCI vs DCI and then parry.
But I would LOVE to see how you come up with a 66% block rate prior to hci/dci, Oh and this phantom 5%Check 1 - Weapon skill (wrestling/anatomy) 50/50 chance to hit
Check 2 - HCI v DCI 50/50 Chance to hit
Check 3 - Parry 35% chance to block hit
Check 4 - The 5% swing and miss -- If you have used a sampire in the last 7 years you would notice you can miss swinging at a slime, which at max can have 34 wrestling and you have 120 weapon skill. According to the games calculation if your weapon skill is 60 points higher then what your hitting you shouldn't miss but yet you do. But hey maybe slimes are refined to 70 DCI, LOL!
Also investing 100 points with todays loot is not a penalty considering you have a whole extra 120 skill on your template from just your suit.
I agree with the other who have continued to point out that mages resorting to so much defense (parry and anatomy) is a symptom of an unbalanced melee equation. Most mages would love to play a more balanced offensive/defensive template (heck I know I would) but for the most part it isn't very viable. A mage without anatomy/parry is toast the moment they are disarmed.
120 Skillpoints in Wrestle/Anatomy.
120 Skillpoints in Parry.
80 Stat points in Parry.
That's a lot of skillpoints (240 - 33% of entire skills template)/statpoints (80 - 30% of entire statpoints) mages are having to invest in defence - I see nothing like that from Dexxers currently being invested in defence. Heck - most even drop Resist Spells and/or don't have Healing. Dexxers are able to use all those points freely to do whatever they want with. And boy they do.
Maybe if current Dexxers were forced to invest more in Defence, and were not so offensive orientated, you could balance the mages by reducing their requirement for so much Defence.
You can't throw the fact you can gain 120 of a Skill from suit properties as being a reason to nerf Parry, Dexxers are equally able to throw 120 into any other skill they want. (I argue gaining 120 Skills into a balanced suit is very difficult anyway).
I see only 2 checks,
here is the formula;
FORMULA: Hit Chance% = ( ( [Attacker's Combat Ability + 20] * [100% + Attacker's Hit Chance Increase] ) divided by
( [Defender's Combat Ability + 20] * [100% + Defender's Defense Chance Increase] * 2 ) ) * 100
Minimum hit Chance% is 2% at all times.
Disarming the shield is a horrible idea. You want the last few mages to quit? What about bushido? That seems like a bushido increase again, the penalty to bush has always been disarm nerfs a lot of it's defense. But let's make shields pointless. I say a timer on specials, so you can't spam the same one nonstop. Use some different weapons. Use stamina on every swing? I mean from a mages point of view we use and consume mana for everything, while trying to get enough defense to not get shredded. I'm always out of mana on any mage I play when pvping, yet we are too strong? No sir, dexxers are too strong now and in a game that has always been about magery it's ridiculous. The difference you fail to see is that mages practice their craft non stop, especially PvP mages. So to bitch about some guy being better then you, because he puts time and effort into playing his class while you are off crafting and tmapping is ridiculous.
Dexxers have been buffed non stop for the past few years and it has resulted in the majority of mages quitting. So yeah it's working well if you want no one to fight and to say you are the best because there is no competition..
This game should buff the mage, it's the core staple of UO.
Ive suggested that shield disarm before, they insta cry when its mentioned. Magery is still the most dominate template played and is the best period. Just cause some mages just aren't good enough to play without easy button wrestle/parry doesn't mean magery is weak somehow. Like I said before you cant add in being ganked cause that doesn't make any difference. If you are footed on a mage the dexxer still has chances to miss you on a mage regardless if you have parry or just a mage weapon, If the mage team foots a dexxer the mage is guaranteed to deal damage on the dexxer. So I don't see how you guy scome up with this false information. In order to become a good mage in UO, it takes lots of practice over a long period of time. Once people get it down this will be a meaningless conversation.
Parry-Mage vs dexer 95% of the time there are 3 outcomes, but only the first two should ever happen... because Parry-Mages are so hard to hit on average you'd hit 1/3 swings, you'd need to land 4-6+ hits in a row to kill ANY "good" mages.
#1) Dexer Runs Away... (this is a loss in my book... because it's definitely not a win).
#2) Dexer Dies. (they will if they don't run)
#3) Dexer kills parry mage, because the mage has no idea how to play UO.
(I feel this way even if the mage doesn't have Parry.)
*Dexer - a player that has no ranged "Casting" abilities, relying solely on "Weapon-Based Attacks" for both interrupts & damage output.
*Mage - Anyone with Magery & Eval-int, relying on "spells for both damage, healing & interrupts.
One of the main reasons (IMO) that dexers are so easy to beat, is because they're limited to 1.25s attacks or slower, they will ALWAYS have a chance to miss anyone at a minimum of 5% (you cannot reach 100% chance to hit anyone anymore, it's been this way for at least 6 years)
Perhaps, if Wrestling/Anatomy + Parry isn't going to be reduced somehow. dexers should have a swing speed cap of 0.75s instead of 1.25s...
Then maybe the people would actually be correct when saying things like "I'm Forced to play with Parry or simply stop playing mages"... it's unbelievable some of these guys.
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Ya we should definitely let these guys balances the game
Obviously I wasn't being serious about the 0.75s thing... merely stating that if it should occur, then there would actually be logic behind the whole "Forced to have parry" argument.
IMO, anyone that feels "Forced" in to having Parry because of Dexers, is very inexperienced in mage-pvp. It was made fairly clear in my previous post. anyway...
IMO a block-chance penalty should be slightly greater than it is with Parry + Bushido, because there are much less disadvantages to Wrestling OR Anatomy + Parry, than any other combination.
Parry-Mages remain close to 70% chance to completely avoid damage, with up to an even greater chance to avoid spell interruption vs dexers if Casting Focus is factored (75% / 79%) 12% CF/ 17% CF with scribe respectively. It's fairly obvious that Mages have the upper hand against anything relying on weapon-based damage & interruptions.
The Devs add Parry to the focus spec restriction list, Instead of implementing a block chance penalty similar to Parry + Bushido + 1-handed weapon.... the block chance penalty would have addressed the problem. but at least they're not the best in both offense & defense anymore...
The Dexer's trade off is always defense for the ability to chug potions, they have a reduced chance to block AND invest more skill points into Bushido and Parry + 1-handed weapon...
2-handed weapons either Block OR they're "balanced" so you could chug potions... Where's the equivalent to a Wrestle/Anatomy+Parry? They give up "weapon damage"? shield bash hits just as hard as most weapon specials.
Wrestling + Parry mages can also disarm... as if they need it. (lol)
How exactly is that balanced?
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Have you ever pvp'd since 97 Covenant? You seem stuck in a dexxer dark age in your viewpoint.
I'll invite you to our shard, and we'll set you up a pure mage so you can see what it's like.
Or we can give you a shard shield or something, to get a premade pure mage over.
Very serious offer, I'm not going to bother arguing with you, unless you take this offer up, so you know what you are talking about.
Regarding experience, over the weekend, our team (with me in - 8v8) won the PvP event, did an uncontested Harry on Saturday night because no-one would take us on, then did a few hours PvP yesterday raiding a Dragon Turtle spawn, then an hour or so more in the evening trying to take someones Harry. Many of these fights include 30 odd players from 3-6 guilds. I've only ever PvP'd on a mage as my core, and I've been doing it for almost 2 decades. Our guild is highly experienced at PvP, and mainly made up of PvP vets, original Factioners etc.
We mainly PvP against Dexxers (and it's boring as hell), why is that? We have had a couple of better non Dexxer Dismount gankfest fights recently, where the opposition were not using PvP crutches, and I even had to compliment them for a good fight, first I've had for awhile.
I have shard-shields I can go just about anywhere.
I play mages 80%+ of the time, but I can make a character for whatever shard you play on.
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Europa guys, it's very active, and ton of fun.
(for pvp).
I do know i'll never ever build a mage with parry. my old pvp templates are pure scribe mage and chiv holy light spam mage, i have no idea if they're still viable but i dont plan on changing them much.
I do have an old eval hybrid im up in the air on what to do with and open to suggestions on.
Should templates in pvp be balanced towards 1v1 or group vs group. The overwhelming decision was group v group. Parry IS NECCESARY when you are fighting 5v5 and have 3-4 archers switching onto a target, heal blocking with mortal/poison and laying waste. 1v1, yep a parry char has a decisive advantage over a dexer.
the OP plays alone, by himself, no team and plays an archer only. No mages, no anything else. He is a solo archer in the world. You can see how he formulates his opinion on the subject.
Dunno, man I play mages 80%+ of the time in pvp, I don't play Any dexers that don't "cast" spells, simply for interrupting mages because without it, it feels like a waste of time.
I could kill most people much faster on a mage, because with spells, you don't need to rely on the RNG of landing hits. Yet, I have a similar opinion as the OP on dexers vs mages (especially Dexer(s) vs Parry-mage(s))
The OP may play solo and only play archers, it doesn't matter... you know why? because parry does make mages near-immortal vs dexers. All because they keep their maximum level of defense + a hand free for potions. This is why the Adjustment/nerf/tweak - whatever you want to call it, needs to be targeted specifically to Wrestling And/Or Anatomy + Parry. No one else would have a hand free without at least temporarily dropping defense for a potion.
Also, shield-bash - as a parry-mage there really isn't any other mastery that could compete with it, deals damage roughly equivalent to an Armor Ignore + paralyze.
You're saying the OP is likely biased with the last comment, and most of the time it's safe to assume that, except the problem is there have been numerous posts about Parry being Overpowered if Mages are using it (on stratics), and the nerf the devs have applied doesn't address Parry, it Addressed Focus-Spec. Hence why Parry is still overpowered.
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