General question about animal training (especially special moves)

keven2002 · December 20

Pawain said:

@ keven2002 See how many items are in that tiny field! I say locked down items should not count towards storage.

I agree with you. I don't decorate because I can't spare the extra 200+ lockdowns to build a themed home; if they made lockdowns not count towards the house count I'd definitely create something.

Ahua · December 20

So the rule stated on the wiki does not always work, I'm sad to be the bearer of bad news.

Did a test with a clydes, thought I'd play it safe... took bladesweave, smooth training bushido and ninjitsu as passives... then took talon strike... smooth nice combinations sometimes, love it.

Then I did the grave error of adding Chivalry. Pet forgot everything else... or it just seems like it?

Only uses chivalry now, I tried various situations, various level mobs, groups, solo: bladesweave completely stopped in its tracks, no more gains at all. Pet is always at full mana almost using nothing letting himself be beat on sometimes and casting heals.

Also not casting heals out of combat? intentional?

I see a very rare talon strike, and chivalry spells, more chivalry spells. often the same, heal heal when it does not need it, then no heals when he does.

Only chivalry is training, bushido and ninjitsu dead stop so it'll never be good.

I'm reading on UO-CAH and the pages are full of this and that ability is bugged... so I'm playing safe. I avoid those.

Still I'm breaking them.

What did I do wrong here? Is it possible to make something different or only one build works? please be honest with me here...

Ahua · December 20

I guess the bladesweave passive count as magical abilities... and it is not stated anywhere.

So they don't balance well... I just saw one bladesweave spell in two hours very actively watching.

So it still exists... its just not really working working.

*sigh*

PS - Its not broken, just not balanced in its use, understatement... my best guess is because the passives have been displaced as active magical abilities would.

Mariah · December 20

Bladeweave – The Warrior becomes one with their weapon, allowing it to guide their hand. The effects of this attack are unpredictable, but effective. Can be set to offensive or defensive mode via a context menu on the weapon. Both modes still have a chance to select all available moves but will have a higher chance to select certain moves. Offensive: Armor ignore, bleed, Mortal strike, crushing blow. Defensive: feint, paralysing blow.

Are you seeing none of these possible moves?

Ahua · December 20

I know I should have assumed it was too powerful to be true ._. again, I was so into it, very fun but seeing it struggle when its supposed to reach its summum is so painful.

I will keep them all just in case something can be done in the next years

I think Pawain was hinting about it when he said they are weighted, could mean some powerful abilities might carry weight in magical abilities. There's a maximum of spells pet can chose from kind of formula, and some combinations drive it over, so it forgets or displaces some.

We're just missing some information here, does passive abilities like bladesweave have weight in the magical ability category? and if yes then maybe I should just have went with bladesweave and no extra magical ability, just extra moves...

Please don't worry for me I'm having a lot of fun! I would just like to know the real rules.

And yes, I've seen some bladesweave moves, but I'd say they happen less than 1% of the time.

So its not gone, just displaced I guess. So it will now train really, really, slow, no matter, onto the next pet

Pawain · December 20

Bladeweave works with chivalry. I did a whole thread about testing it on Cus.

It does have an offensive and defensive mode which can only be accessed with EC and knowing what to do. They did not finish that part well.

I had a player come change mine for testing. In defensive mode you do less damage over time.

Yes a lot of the abilities descriptions sound great. They just are not impressive. And newer mobs have abilities to counter them. Like Mortal Strike only stops healing. Event mobs have hit point regen.

We do not know what ability the pet will use and when. Make a weaving pet. It will do EoO at any target HP but rarely when really low HP.

Basic AI/chiv pets do the most damage. Sure I wish other things were nearly as good, but they are not.

Ahua · December 20

Yup I agree the AI will need some love and could indirectly "res" those pets eventually, I can wait

I thought that's what made bladesweave not OP, having no idea how lucky you're going to get so yes its lots of spells, but could be unlucky. I kind of ignore those issues. What I'm reacting to is when you have so very few choices, and you take even less than most pets will have with innate abilities just to play safe, and it still is completely unbalanced in use.

But can my theory make sense as to the basic rules?

You said that innate abilities do count and reduces your choices, so a fresh Clyde's has none, no extra skill like poisoning or healing or anything along those lines.

Could everything "count" as a spell and be queued much like a macro is, and that the selection of those spells follow the weight rule across those magical skills?

So when we add Bladesweave, Bushido comes as primary passive skill, so some weight is given to the abilities (2 choices from these first 3 categories) and some weight is given to the magical abilities side (even if not listed and passive)?

I am thinking, because the performance of the pet is much like the one in which I picked two magical skills... Since those were two full weight magical skills on that previous pet, they completely overide each other, and the previous skill starts to decrease. I understood that part the hard way.

But what if for example, applying the chivalry would displace Bushido but not fully in spell selection? This would explain why a pet that has innate magical ability like poisoning can then learn necromage or another full weight skill and still use both. Some might weight more than others, and we cannot seem to rely on the listed "weight in training points" which is not the same measure.

Since it procs so little, and the skill is really low (I raised .1% bushido in 4 hours of heavy training, while I raised 10% in chivalry, it clearly shows us the ratio of time it will cast and possibly gain) then the cast just fails its checks and this explains the long pauses between chivalry casts?

Before I picked Chivalry, on the previous level, bushido and ninjitsu were training slow, but then again more weight is given to bushido, so it was training at a very slow speed, like chivalry, but normal speed. Ninjitsu was however extremely slow, as if it had very little weight, and when I added chivalry, it took all the weight from bushido, and now strangely ninjitsu raises faster than bushido.

See what I mean? This is irrefutable proof that we're missing a crucial math equation to understand how to even make informed decisions.

I like the take one magical and 2 from the other categories rule, but its just a guidelines that often will work, it does not explain the real rules and again, many will fall prey to it.

I'm seeing more and more broken pets... tamers harassing me to take 100 million $ pets that are supposed CHIV AI perfect builds but apparently didn't work. Not kidding I can rarely go at stables without being proposed dragons and CUs and many rare pets. They want to get rid of it to start over, again, some tell me over 50 broken pets...

If we're meant to break them and waste all this time and money, I'd like it to be listed in game, warn the players, this can fail as much as a craft can. I should not have to feel like I'm beta-testing the system, having to do all these copies on TC, wait, use gates.

I did use everyone's tricks, but its limited... and the fun is understanding the rules and playing by them.

Hard to complain being offered so many rare pets, but after trying those pets, mine that I trained with your information in mind perform much better. And I have no more room now, I prefer keeping my broken pets until they just I guess rebalance the AI weight selection, than getting multiple "perfect" pets with all the same build. I know they are technically ok, just not working right now.

And you just told me secret procedure only available in the EC? I will find it lol, challenge accepted.

Ahua · December 20

I'd even say the whole AI is different per animal and they don't behave the same with the same skills (weight/decision on the behavior tree). For example my CU will proactively come and heal me when I'm hurt, my triton with the same healing and build never will. Hasn't tried to heal me once.

Both my CU and Triton need to be told to "guard me" and then they will use their healing on themselves out of combat, if I don't, then they're very happy to be at low health apparently, even under 10% they just stand there and do nothing.

I love the concept as it leaves a bit of mystery in how the pets will behave, I like all the complexity and mysteries.

I did a test with blades weave, and when you add frenzied whirlwind to it, it also displaces bushido in favor on ninjitsu. If we could have just this part of the equation elucidated, I wouldn't need to bother anyone ever again with my questions and emotional reactions (lol). I'd just be playing the game.

Pawain · December 20

They put Bladeweave on Cus because when it uses Bleed, it removes bleed from the Cu.

But, it then randomly chooses the ability it uses.

Ahua · December 20

Doubt its fully random, this is not how behavior trees with weights work. This is my point.

If it were truly random then I have about the same amount of "spells" in BW and Chiv... so they should proc the same.

Now 20% gain in chiv, and still .1% in bushido... its literally gone. Thought it might react differently to single mob and multi-mobs but it does the same...

heal heal heal when its 98%, as soon as it gets a few good hits and down past 80% the heals almost stop and it consecrates its own weapon like 5 times in a row, lol, completely useless.

It will let itself die without heals.

I program behavior tree and various AI agents for a living (senior technical designer/engineer), way before it was popular and mainstream, which is why I'm so interested and passionate about this system.

It can't be random, or my Triton would randomly try to heal me too, its way more complex than this, which is why its interesting, still need the basic math equations to make informed decisions.

Ahua · December 20

Yeah I did extensive testing now, and I MUCH prefer my pet with only blades weave and talon... it would heal more too (not sure why, bushido passive maybe?) so strange...

Chivalry completely ruined it... almost 90 chivalry now and bushido has not moved more than .1... at least its not going down but I estimate the proc rate about .01% for bladesweave... not broken as other pets, but almost.

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General question about animal training (especially special moves)

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