Sacred Journey makes no sense

ChumboWumbo · February 14

Why does it STILL fail at 60 Chiv? Like what feels like over 50% of the damn time? It has a minimum skill requirement of 5 ffs! 3rd level mage spells take a minimum of 10.1 Magery to cast, and have a 100% success rate at only 50 magery.

Make it make sense. It's not even in line with Recall (4th Level), because at 60 magery, Recall (the spell) has a 90% success rate. Why is this teleport method so needlessly gimped?

Pawain · February 14

You can use a 90 charge book to travel with. No skills required.

Grimbeard · February 14

Pawain said:

You can use a 90 charge book to travel with. No skills required.

This is a troll bearing not a thing about his question

ChumboWumbo · February 14

Pawain said:

You can use a 90 charge book to travel with. No skills required.

Irrelevant. This is regarding the formula of Sacred Journey making no sense and not being in line with the requirements of other teleportation skills. A spell I have a more than proficient skill level to be casting at a near 100% rate is still failing 50% or more of the time. A spell that for all intents and purposes, is just an alternate version of Recall, which does not have this same issue.

The button is right below "charges" in the atlas, and it costs no tithe points to even use, while a recall typically costs 150+gp a pop. Why the hell wouldn't I use a spell available to my build, you know, unless that spell is needlessly gimped for no reason what so ever?

KroDuK · February 14

Now I need to see that build.. show the skill sheet.

ChumboWumbo · February 14

KroDuK said:

Now I need to see that build.. show the skill sheet.

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/iy/03ytlmlr81j6.png

Chiv is locked at 60 to maximize my point usage without relying on +skill gear, specifically jewelry. Anything at 0 and locked is one of my other skills I have access to on a soulstone. Outside of the Sacred Journey issue, it works quite well on almost anything. When theres less debuffs to worry about, I usually opt for Anatomy to hit the 300% dmg cap easier. Consecrate could be better at 60, but that's an issue that's easier to deal with/less obnoxious than having to recast Sacred 3-4 times to teleport.

KroDuK · February 15

ChumboWumbo said:

Consecrate could be better at 60, but that's an issue that's easier to deal with/less obnoxious than having to recast Sacred 3-4 times to teleport.

I was going to say.. now u'd need 80 chiv for consecrate.. personally my sappire/"sampire" is wraith form.. in wraith form u can use recall at 100% with no magery skill point.

Edit: also with higher chiv u can pop ennemy of one easier.. stacking with honor/bushido.. it help a TONS to reach that 300% PvE cap.

Grimbeard · February 15

Still not one reply addressing his question and realistically only a developer can do that..

ChumboWumbo · February 15

KroDuK said:

ChumboWumbo said:

Consecrate could be better at 60, but that's an issue that's easier to deal with/less obnoxious than having to recast Sacred 3-4 times to teleport.

I was going to say.. now u'd need 80 chiv for consecrate.. personally my sappire/"sampire" is wraith form.. in wraith form u can use recall at 100% with no magery skill point.

Yeah, Consecrate only applies to about 50% of hits, and only lasts 7 seconds at 60. Again, it could be better, but Consecrate is easily spammable thankfully. The trade off for those extra 40 points going into Parry and Bushido is immense. Most of the time I can't keep up my Counter-Attack because it's going off as soon as I can load it and a Whirlwind up, but this also means in a funny way Counter-Attack is a reliable healing option because it can be trusted to pop far more often than not. I can't even estimate the amount of times it's saved me from 5% or less because I instinctively hammer on it when death is looking probable.

Another reason I really prefer to use SJ is because it does not unequip you when it's cast. Sure "git gud" and remember to re-equip your weapon every time you Recall, but I can't be the only person who's absentmindedly ran into combat without doing so after a Recall, especially when switching to another character. If it's an option, I want to use it to prevent myself from being a dumb dumb as much as possible. If that's the trade-off for making the "perfect cast ceiling" higher (and being able to move while casting, but it can still be interrupted), it just feels really lopsided. I'm no mage, so its not like Spell Channeling is worth the slot use for that same benefit either. The thing that drives me nuts is that "5" minimum requirement. If its anything like Recall, and logically it should be mechanically speaking (formula), then at 35-40, SJ should no longer fail. Yet at 60, it is still what feels like 50%. It especially doesn't make sense because it's not like Chiv has a gigantic repertoire of utility like Magery does. It's very basic, and almost completely combat focused, there is no reason one of their few unique utility spells should have such a punishing cast success scaling, especially if it is just emulating a low level Magery spell that has a work around for non-mages.

KroDuK · February 15

Grimbeard said:

Still not one reply addressing his question and realistically only a developer can do that..

cuz.. the real problem came out.. now it can be address
(the 150 gold per recall non sense.. I was like use wraith)

ChumboWumbo said:

(and being able to move while casting, but it can still be interrupted)

Almost sound like a design choice for a question of balance (for the good guys to flex out).. wich is why I was like why the consecrate change?? When I knew I had to bump chiv from 75 to 80 on the sampire.. almost like the designer that did this change on consecrate didn't knew we already had a REAL good reason to use 75 chiv.. nothing like being able to move while teleporting.. 75 chiv is a little price to pay.

Edit: I believe you for the non sense about the % I still believe if it's the case the non linear line was a design choice for sanctum viatas.

loop · February 15

Probably just good old RNG and memory bias. We tend to remember negative things or things that confirm our beliefs a bit better.

Min skill is 15 and max is 65, so at 60 it should be like 92%. If you’re keen on it, take a large sample size and see how it averages out over the long haul, and you might know better if there’s an issue.

Edit:

Actually, AI says formula is

(your skill - min skill) * 2

So like 90% at 60

Pawain · February 15

Grimbeard said:

Still not one reply addressing his question and realistically only a developer can do that..

So you reply, why?

Grimbeard · February 15

Pawain said:

Grimbeard said:

Still not one reply addressing his question and realistically only a developer can do that..

So you reply, why?

Because you trolls are trolling

KroDuK · February 15

Grimbeard said:

Pawain said:

Grimbeard said:

Still not one reply addressing his question and realistically only a developer can do that..

So you reply, why?

Because you trolls are trolling

instead of tickling each others.. go on this topic: https://forum.uo.com/discussion/15735/eclipsed-dawn-event-questions#latest

I'm waiting for someone to bite... anyone, make urself useful

Seth · February 15

SJ is a warrior recall ability and allows him to do it without need to disarm. They are not apple to apple comparison though they serve almost purpose. Magery is for mages.

Your build is for a sampire? I think u are better off dropping resist and up chivalry to max, then add anatomy.

Sampire needs to maximise damage, it sucks health from damage. High resist is not critical.

ChumboWumbo · February 15

Seth said:

SJ is a warrior recall ability and allows him to do it without need to disarm. They are not apple to apple comparison though they serve almost purpose. Magery is for mages.

Your build is for a sampire? I think u are better off dropping resist and up chivalry to max, then add anatomy.

Sampire needs to maximise damage, it sucks health from damage. High resist is not critical.

I have no issue dealing damage or maintaining my health, even when I'm not running Anatomy. Resist Spells has far too much usefulness to just drop entirely. When I'm running it, Paralyze is pretty much useless on me, debuffs at most drop around 9 points, my resists cannot go below 40, and very importantly, I'm not 1 shotting myself from Blood Oath. When it's not a spellcaster, Anatomy is the better option and I switch accordingly. My lower Chiv rarely, if ever, causes me issue in combat, kiting and proper threat mitigation work wonders for any mishaps, and it's not a difficult matter to make an elemental weapon if I want to forgo constantly spamming Consecrate. The point of sanity is purely that SJ is not in line with other teleportation methods mechanically speaking. There is no reason you should need 80 for a 5 skill requirement spell to not fizzle. If it was even 75% of the time at 60 to balance out its other uses, I wouldn't even be ranting about it, but a coin flip is maddening when you're just using it as a spell channeling Recall. I find it way too unwieldy to be of any more realistic use in fleeing than Recall, nor do I PvP, so the fact you can move while casting doesn't hold a lot of weight to me. Recall with some FC is damn near instant to be fair, so the movement option of SJ really doesn't feel that special.

KroDuK · February 15

Like he said it's no apple for apple.

You need 65 chiv for 100%
Loop gave u the formula 60-15= 45x2= 90% chance to cast Sanctum at 60 chiv.

Do not listen to the non sense I did, no one took the bait; blaming the dev cuz I had to change my sampire build (last time i played him was in 2008) from 75 chiv for 80 chiv in 2024 (like u'D need to do 60 to 65 chiv.. saying this is non sense.. this is call design #balance.

so to resume.. it's fun to keep your weapon, being able to move (next u'd ask the same from recall).. 150 gold for recall scroll is not too much gold (buy them from NPC for WAY cheaper than the 150 gold u complaint about)

It's all about a question of fairness.. u want your lemon to behave like an apple.. got it!

loop · February 15

I’d love to continue the trend of shaming the OP’s sampire, but here are some samples I did on test center:

50 casts, 11 failures, 78% success

So either:

Sample is too small to determine anything
Description of the formula is incorrect
Actual issue if the formula is correct

I lean toward #1. Didn’t feel like automating it if you know what I mean

Pawain · February 15

My imbuer has 90 LRC. I will get the needs reagents msg a lot. But I also expect that if I noted 1000 tries it would be 90%.

We notice failures and don't notice success.

Arroth_Thaiel · February 15

Just tested on TC.

60 Chivalry
0 Karma

100 Casts
88 Success
12 Failure

RNG is streaky. 9 Failures in the first 50 casts, 3 failures in the last 50 casts.

88% success with 100 samples seems right on par with the formula. Push it out to 1000 samples and you'd probably be at 900 / 1000, or 910 / 1000, or 890 / 1000, something close to 90%.

Looks like 90% success at 60 skill to me.

Pawain · February 15

Ya 90% feels like 50% when it does not work.

So, no problems here. Works as intended.

Victim_Of_Siege · February 15

Pawain said:

Ya 90% feels like 50% when it does not work.

So, no problems here. Works as intended.

If you aren't guaranteed to succeed 100% of the time, then it is 50%. either it will succeed, or it won't. At least with the UO RNG . . .

Pawain · February 15

KroDuK · February 15

loop said:

I’d love to continue the trend of shaming the OP’s sampire..

Yeah my bad, the lemon comment was too tempting.

Personally, the 90% acting SUS, is the thing I admit he's not crazy.. Sanctum Viatas is OP compared to recall and imo the 65 chiv is a little price to pay.. the fact he's 5 point short.. is.. you know.

We had this discussion before with @username and other people.. the RNG system is pure RNG on each roll it does not consider the past roll. (law of diminishing return or the opposite ain't in the code/formulae)

Considering this; Victim & Paiwan mind set is perfect.

But yeah, acting like Sanctum Viatas ain't OP compared to recall and you wanna streamline all the "recall" for a question of fairness.. was a real bad take.. u got enough necro to use wraith form if sanctum ain't better and too cheap to spend the ~44 gold on recall scroll..

If he assume Sanctum is the goat of recall.. spend that 5 points.. great investment!

Victim_Of_Siege · February 15

And there's the 1 point of unneeded necromancy. you could put that into Chivalry. puts your chance at 92%

Theo · February 17

Ah the RNG discussion.

As a statistics minor in school I’m well versed in what Random means. As a former coder and software executive I also know how a binary computer can only simulate true randomness.

Every RND calculation needs a seed to work from as an input to the rnd calculation. I have never seen the code but I really believe somewhere they are using the location/tile in the game as part of the rnd calculation. Why?

Because I will be in one spot and with 95% chance of success at recall or sacred or imbuing or making an EX weapon and I will fail one, two,three times in a row which is highly statistically unlikely. But when I move one tile I’ll succeed on the next attempt.

The RND Calc needs to change. It needs to not be tied to your location. This gets my sampire killed often. You hit a tile with a bad rng seed and you get three fails in a row, no leech and you die and the thing you are attacking is something you should hit almost 100%. For this reason I make sure to keep moving slightly esp if I get one miss because it’s highly likely 2 and 3 are right behind.

I’ve played this game 20+ years and noticed this way way too many times. The chance to fail 3x in a row with a 95% chance of success is 1/20*1/20*1/20 =0.000125 or 1/8000 times. However I’ll see it once every day or two if standing on the wrong tile. Move one tile and succeed immediately.

It would even feel better if the rnd calc was going to keep using the tile as the seed if it rotated around the 6 tiles around your toon. First rnd use tile 1. Then second rnd use tile 2 and loop through the 6. Then if it hit the ill fated tile it would be every 6 instead of the same tile over and over. Way less 1/8000 streaks and more random results.

Pawain · February 17

Yes, long ago I read that the tile you are on affects RNG for boss drops. Along with oth other things.

KroDuK · February 17

Theo said:

Ah the RNG discussion.

As a statistics minor in school I’m well versed in what Random means. As a former coder and software executive I also know how a binary computer can only simulate true randomness.

Every RND calculation needs a seed to work from as an input to the rnd calculation. I have never seen the code but I really believe somewhere they are using the location/tile in the game as part of the rnd calculation. Why?

Pretty sure it has something to do with how u training your skill (something in the code to punish AFK pps not moving while training skill).. It was faster gaining skill when u were moving.. It was better skill gain to loop on a moving boat (traveling around the world) than looping not moving in your house.

Pawain said:

Yes, long ago I read that the tile you are on affects RNG for boss drops. Along with oth other things.

Big Delusion.. I read long time ago mashing f5 u would DL the starcraft map faster when you're joining a lobby.

NuSair · February 18

KroDuK said:
Big Delusion.. I read long time ago mashing f5 u would DL the starcraft map faster when you're joining a lobby.

No Delusion. Although the statement is a little too narrow. I want to say it was Draconi that made a comment in relation to skill gain, RNG, and tiles. It has been a number of years ago (15+), but to paraphrase- each tile/small group of tiles was part of the RNG calculation. He also mentioned that each subserver does it's own RNG. Draconi was amazing and I loved how he'd pull back the curtain from time to time.

KroDuK · February 18

I don't believe that at all.. imagine the server charge for none sense luck calculation.

As for the skill gain.. Most players already knew this 25+ years ago.. who ever this Draconi was.. he was late at pulling the curtain.

Pawain · February 18

Yes I found that very bad, so I just ignored it cause I'll never be able to figure out the correct spot to stand.

@KroDuK ; When Battlenet was very crowded and slow for D2. I used to write. Press Alt + F4 to reduce lag!

A few came back and called me names.

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