Devs, nerfing Taming to address scripters looks pointless and, yet, Taming gets hurt...

poppspopps Posts: 2,373
edited December 2020 in General Discussions
As this Thread https://forum.uo.com/discussion/7889/anyone-gonna-stop-the-scripter-lvl-2-ice-on-atlantic quite showed it, the " nth " nerf to Taming to address scripters by making Paragons reveal, retarget and what not, has not done much to scripters but only made the gameplay of Tamers way more difficult.

A Tamer is on foot, if they are controlling a 5 slot pet which most often is the case (unless they are a Gargoyle and there is very few Gargoyle Tamers, most are humans or Elves..., besides, there is plenty reasons why a player might want to have a human or elf Tamer and not a Gargoyle...) and Paragons are damn fast and hit damn hard.

There is simply not a single chance for a Tamer on foot to outrun a Paragon and now that they can reveal all the time and retarget the Tamer, this only aggravates a Tamer's gameplay beyond being it reasonable.

I understand that you did it as an attempt to address scripting, and that is commendable... YET, as we have seen, scripters simply adapted, got several accounts as tamers (or perhaps just got 2 Warriors cross healing one another unless facing a disarmer, and scripted a go go....), and using scripts which synchronize them, got again on top being able to kill Paragons before they can hurt their characters...

And what is left ?

The hurt to the legittimate player who only plays 1 account and 1 Tamer who, instead, has hardly any way, being on foot, to counter a Paragon that can reveal them all the time, retarget them all the time, quickly outrun them and kill them easily.

Of course, Revealing and retargeting do not affect Warriors, obviously, they only or mostly hurt Tamers.

This is the same, at least to my viewing, as the randomization or resources, again another change to address scripters.... did it affect scripters ?

Nope, they just run their scripts 24/7 and still gathered their resources.... it still affected the legittimate players running only 1 account who was now in much greater trouble to gather the resources that they needed....

Please, PLEASE, look for ways to address scripters OTHER then these ways which hurt the legittimate players who, not scripting, do not have the way that scripters have to counter your changes to their advantage...

And please, revert some of the tamers' nerfs you have done over these years because they have made Taming really not enjoyable to play.

- Pets do half damage in PvM (the latest Events Paragons being an example of this);

- MoBs most always retargeting  making it difficult for the Tamer to stay there and heal the pet ;

- MoBs doing AoE damage making it almost impossible to use Veterinary to heal a pet, saved a few, rare exceptions ;

- Way slow casting spells make it harder for a Tamer to keep up helping one's own pet, often, with how hard some MoBs hit pets, by the time a heal is cast (tamer with protection on), the pet has already taken heavy damage.... not to mention the poisoning of pets and the Tamers having to recast from heals to cures all the time which, when having protection on, means a very very long time before the pet actually gets healed up...

- Pets always changing target even if the Tamer has 120 Animal Lore and 120 Animal Taming making it extremely annoying to always say All Kill and target the one Mob that one wants killed, it often happens to me that I command All Kill to the nearest MoB and then, after attacking it, the pet immediately retargets onto a MoB that is farther away leaving the Tamer exposed to being attacked by that nearer MoB....

- The pet Ball of summoning having lots of places where it does not work. The Ball is important because many times, it could be used to save a pet from dyeing and thus loosing skill points which then have to be regained... yet, yelling All Follow me often simply does nothing when the pet is being aggroed by several MoBs.... if the Tamer was to be able to run away in a safer place and use the Ball of Summoning, instead, this would save the pet a needless death and thus avoid it to loose skil points upon dyeing...

- Tamers being revealed all the time and thus having a hard time being able to stay by their pet to help it (this especially with the new Paragons, has it has been already pointed out);

- Pets' pathfinding being very lacking, oddily enough, Paragons can very well go around ANYTHING and get to the player being targeted but a pet cannot use the same pathfinding that Paragons use and gets stuck anywhere and so easily ?

These are only some of the most annoying nerfs hurting much Taming, one could go on and on and on with stuff that makes playing a Tamer way less enjoyable....

I do not know others but, personally, I have had enough of dyeing as a Tamer to Paragons and having to spend tons in insurance plus wasting a royal time in having to get ressed, res the pet etc. etc. continuously .... it is getting really old.

And yes, I REFUSE to make a Warrior/Sampire simply because you made Taming almost impossible to play because of all the nerfs.

Please, make Taming again an enjoyable playing Template.

Thanks.

Comments

  • and yet another novel...

    Once again, not every toon is good for all situations as well as pets. Learn to adapt. My tamers do quite well in some areas and not others. I adapt my pet to them as well. The right tool (pet) for the right job. A tamer is not a UO God. And, a sampire is not either. 

    Disclaimer. I dont read all your posts, just skim em. Told you 1000's of time to quit writing pages and pages. Nobody reads all that garbage.  Play the game. Learn the game. OR....FIND ANOTHER GAME! 
  • vortexvortex Posts: 75
    Here we go again....
  • JackFlashUkJackFlashUk Posts: 374
    edited December 2020
    He will not be satisfied until everyone with skill is nerfed so they can be as crap as him.  Beyond pathetic now 

    time for the moderators to start gagging him

    he has opinions on everything regardless if it’s relevant to his chars, and feels the need to speak on behalf of others when it’s not needed or welcome  
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 919
    edited December 2020
    1) Ice has NEVER been the best place to play a tamer, current event not withstanding. Too many creatures in there have AoE - and have had for many, many years. The only place you might find a tamer in there would be at the white wyrm, either farming leather or taming a new pet.

    2) Tamers who have played in Ilshenar know that the way to deal with Paragons is to stand still and teleport, not to run.  Think of them as T Rex in the movie Jurasic park.

    3) The reason your pet doesn't come to you when you use 'all follow me' when attacked by multiple mobs is, it can't. It can't push through things like a player can. It's stuck. All follow me is exactly the wrong command to give in that situation. You stop the pet fighting, causing it to die even faster. Pre cast invis, get as close the the pet as you can, drop the invis on yourself, then recall out - a runebook default would be the quickest exit.

    4) Tamers no longer have vet is a generalisation I hotly dispute. I have vet and when using both vet & magery I can keep my pet alive where simply casting might not be enough.
    5) Pets can pathfind, but not with the follow command. Try 'name' come. You might be surprised.
    6) Playing a tamer is very enjoyable. I love being a 'team' with my pet. but then I know what I'm doing when I play one.  I also know where not to play one and choose a different template.
  • @Mariah / Mods can we please just close this thread from this troll?

    I'm not sure he even plays the game; all this guy does is post stuff to get a rise out of people.
  • IBTL
  • RadstRadst Posts: 45
    .
    Anyone that has been on stratics for the past 15yrs would know there is a specific SOMEONE who would post like crazy but 99.9% are nonsense.

    I'm glad stratics has a new feature to block/filter posts from any users, so I am finally free from reading junk, tho I already skip certain users.

    GUESS WHO THAT IS

    :D :D :D
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,373
    edited December 2020

    Good points as usual, I will try to adress my point of view about them...
    1) Ice has NEVER been the best place to play a tamer, current event not withstanding. Too many creatures in there have AoE - and have had for many, many years. The only place you might find a tamer in there would be at the white wyrm, either farming leather or taming a new pet.
    That is true, nonetheless, we have been seeing MoBs doing AoE pretty much very often, if you recall it, during the Invasions in Moonglow the fire spawn was doing it also, and it was not a Dungeon....

    My point being, that the Developers have been using MoBs doing AoE too much and too often, to my opinion and this, pretty much only affects Tamers who this way cannot stay near their Pet to vet it...

    Sure, also Warriors are affected, but they can still get their heals from MoBs while they are hitting (a Tamer needs to distract from tking care of the Pet to take care of him/herself) if they are a Sampire or use healing or other way to heal while they keep swinging their weapon....

    So, pretty much, as I see it, AoE is a Tamers' nerf and quite a bad one too.... and it is being used too often now, to my opinion.
    2) Tamers who have played in Ilshenar know that the way to deal with Paragons is to stand still and teleport, not to run.  Think of them as T Rex in the movie Jurasic park.
    This is simply not true. I do that a lot and, while it is a little less likely that the Paragon will retarget, it still does, even though the Tamer stays still or teleports. I know, because I have that happen to me all the time...
    3) The reason your pet doesn't come to you when you use 'all follow me' when attacked by multiple mobs is, it can't. It can't push through things like a player can. It's stuck. All follow me is exactly the wrong command to give in that situation. You stop the pet fighting, causing it to die even faster. Pre cast invis, get as close the the pet as you can, drop the invis on yourself, then recall out - a runebook default would be the quickest exit.
    That is what I usually do. I am finding myself to recall out and then having to get back in way too often.... it is taking the fun away...
    Besides, if there is Paragons there which usually is the case when the pet is overwhelmed (i.e. too much stuff spawning all at once so chances for Paragons to spawn are much higher...), they reveal 10, 15 tiles away thus making that hardly possible...
    It is ridicolous and absurd gameplay that I have, with Protection on, mind you, for ovbious reasons, to make a step, cast invisibility, make another step, cast again invisibility and so forth until I can get close enough to the pet to recall out with it...
    And, mind you, all this BEFORE the pet gets killed and casting at ridicolous slow speed because of having Protection on...

    This might sound fun for some, it does not for me. This is an absurd way to try compensate some unreasonable nerfs done to Taming over the years to curb on scripters but, as we have seen, have done nothing to stop scripting, only aggravated the fun of playing a Tamer....
    4) Tamers no longer have vet is a generalisation I hotly dispute. I have vet and when using both vet & magery I can keep my pet alive where simply casting might not be enough.
    Well, good for you I guess, the sad reality though, is that less and less Tamers have Veterinary simply because it now is pretty much used, due to ll the nerfs done to Taming, only to res a pet... and there is alternate ways now, and quite a few, to res a pet other then using Veterinary...
    So why bother using it at all ?
    5) Pets can pathfind, but not with the follow command. Try 'name' come. You might be surprised.
    I had no knowledge of that. I do not understand the logic of it... and why saying "<petname> follow me" would get a better pathfinding as compared to "All follow me", I mean, one would imagine the code for that to be the same... but of course I will give it a try and see if their pathfinding becomes as good as that of the Paragons who can find their Target around any corner and obstacle....
    6) Playing a tamer is very enjoyable. I love being a 'team' with my pet. but then I know what I'm doing when I play one.  I also know where not to play one and choose a different template.
    I used to also enjoy playing a Tamer back in the days.... but now, with all the nerfs to Taming, it has taken the fun out of it.... I like the new (for me) training mechanics for pets, it is all of the gameplay hurdles which have been put in in the attempt, I seem to understand, to curb on scripting (which, as we have seen, have pretty much failed as scripters have quickly adjusted and compensated them...) that are taking the fun out of it.

    When I have to res a ton of times because of the way Paragons reveal, retarget and fastly move and quickly kill while I am on foot, when I have to get my pet ressed a ton of time and then have to work its skills back up much because its effectivity against Paragons has been halved due another nerf, it takes too long for it to fight them (yes, I am using a proper pet in Ice Dungeon...) and so it becomes overwhelmed by new spawn popping up while it is fighting a Paragon (and I have a hard time to stay close to keep my pet healed), when I have to recall out a ton of times to keep my pet from dying....... all this quickly takes the fun out.

    One thing is making it challenging, an entire other thing is putting in so many nerfs against Tamers that, by them all adding up, they leave no way out for the Tamer to have a feasible gameplay of the Template.

    They only become aggravating to the Taming gameplay and, thus, take the fun out of playing the Template...

    At least, if all these nerfs to Taming had any success in curbing down Scripters but, as we have seen, they have not.... scripters adjusted and found a way to still end up on top...... these nerfs only ended up hurting much the legittimate player who, with only 1 account, tries to have fun playing a Tamer....

    So what are the Developers going to do now, make the gameplay for Tamers even MORE impossible because they cannot stop scripters from scripting ?

    I think that it is the approach that is wrong. It is NOT addressing gameplay and making it more difficult that scripting can be take care of, that only ends up affecting legittimate players with scripters always finding a way out since they use scripts, can run multiple accounts and do not spend their time at the keyboard to get stuff done in UO....

    But again, this is something, as I mentioned, that we also saw when Resources spawn was randomized... it was "thought" to be succesfull against scripters who gathered resources but it did not.... it only affected the legittimate player who played one account and tried to gather resources playing at the keyboard.... the scripters would still run their scripts 24/7 and get their resources regardless of the randomization...

    What I am trying to say, is that I would like to see the Developers think about ways to address scripters that did NOT affect legittimate players and their gameplay because, in the end, is changes to the game do not end up hurting scripters much but they DO affect instead legittimate players who try to have fun playing the templates which they like, this will eventually cost to Ultim Online players base and paying customers...
  • The Books of Popps......

    one mark: Veterinary brings stable places - and Petra is right ... that tamers have no longer Veterinaty is a generalition...

    So ...IBTL .... ;)

    A little less ego-thinking, know-it-all and rumbling compared to others who aren't so "great" and the UO-life would be a whole corner easier

    (Ein bisschen weniger Ego-Denken, Besserwisserei und Rumprollerei anderen gegenüber die halt nicht so "toll sind" und das UO-Leben wäre ne ganze Ecke einfacher)







  • vortexvortex Posts: 75
    Figure out what other tamers are doing cause your the only one complaining about it...I have no problem with mine.
  • vortexvortex Posts: 75
    keven2002 said:
    @ Mariah / Mods can we please just close this thread from this troll?

    I'm not sure he even plays the game; all this guy does is post stuff to get a rise out of people.


    keven2002
    said:
    @ Mariah / Mods can we please just close this thread from this troll?

    I'm not sure he even plays the game; all this guy does is post stuff to get a rise out of people.
    If they do there will be a new post and be all about sampires and tamers and thieves... People reply to his posts and he just ignores advice and then argues about it.... Reminds me of my ex.
  • AaylaAayla Posts: 162
    I don’t see any problems playing a gamer in those event. If it’s too hard for you maybe you should go play some Candy Crush. 

    I totally agree with all that has been put in place to prevent a scripters to farm and this just make the game more fun. 

    You might be the kind of tamer to send your pet and hide while you do nothing. You’ll have to learn how to play a gamer. 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,654
    Another example of Popps getting correct answers then spending time disputing them instead of learning how to play his tamer.

    Also someone with 1 pet with 90 chivalry is not the spokesperson for tamers.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,373
    Aayla said:

    I totally agree with all that has been put in place to prevent a scripters to farm and this just make the game more fun. 

    Only detail is that, as it has been pointed out already (see https://forum.uo.com/discussion/7889/anyone-gonna-stop-the-scripter-lvl-2-ice-on-atlantic ), all of the Taming nerfs did nothing to hurt scripters....

    Just like the Randomization of Resources did nothing to hurt scripters there too AND, some players say (I spare you the links to the various posts...), ALSO the changes to IDOCs did nothing to affects scripters....

    All those nerfs and changes only aggravated the gameplay of legit Tamers, Resource gatherers, IDOC players who play their account and that only.... scripters remained unharmed by them, it seems...

    I am just inviting the Developers to look at OTHER ways to address scripting and not through ways that only aggravate legittimate players gameplay.

    It is a GAME, supposedly players play it to have fun, relax, enjoy their time in it.

    As soon as the gameplay become tedious, aggravated, annoying, what is the point of playing and paying for one's own subscription ?

    And I assume that players' subscriptions are wanted and, the more the better....
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,654
    edited December 2020
    @popps you are arguing to remove tamer reductions that were put in place to prevent afk farming by using an example of a tamer that is afk farming? 

    According to the OP of that thread.

    Do you comprehend  anything here?  The only thing you will achieve is more tamer nerfs and more power to templates that are active, such as Sampires.
  • I had to look it up but... IBTL!! It's coming lol
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,373
    edited December 2020
    Pawain said:
    @ popps you are arguing to remove tamer reductions that were put in place to prevent afk farming by using an example of a tamer that is afk farming? 

    According to the OP of that thread.

    Do you comprehend  anything here?  The only thing you will achieve is more tamer nerfs and more power to templates that are active, such as Sampires.
    More Tamers' nerfs ?

    And to what purpose if I may ask ?

    Scripters, as it is clear to me at least, laugh at the changes that make a profession more impossible to play...

    Where scripters stopped by making resources randomized ?

    Not at all, it is my understanding that they kept their scripts go running 24/7 as they were botted, and none of their time wasted at the keyboard...

    And what about the changes to IDOCs ? Did they stop scripters to have a field day at IDOCs ?

    Not at all again, looking at various posts on these same Forums about IDOCs still being scripted a go-go....

    And the nerfs to taming did anything to stop scripters maybe ?

    Nope, as the Thread mentioned quite well showed, scripters just adjusted, for smarter scripting, used multiple accounts all key synchronized and kept doing what they are used to do.... script AFK, again perhaps laughing at the changes...

    YET, who did all these changes TRULY hurt if I may ask ?

    The legittimate miners and lumberjackers, the legittimate IDOCErs, the legittimate tamers who all just played their 1 account at the keyboard, using their time, and enjoying mining, lumberjacking, IDOCing, Taming BEFORE they got changed and deeply hurt by those changes...

    So, now we should see a perpetration of what I see as a mistaken approach ?

    We should see further making legittimate players' gameplay more aggravated in what I seem to understand looks a futile and useless attempt to address scripters but who, it  would seem, might instead keep laughing at the changes and keep doing their botted scripting to their hearts content ?

    Seriously ?

    To me it looks clear that the approach to aggravate legittimate players' gameplay achieves nothing to address the scripters issue and that ANOTHER approach must be found.

    Alienating legittimate players from the gameplay that they used to enjoy but no longer have fun with because of the changes put in in what I can't help seeing as a failed attempt to stop scripters, seems to me to not be the right way to go... it only risks loosing players to Ultima Online and, thus, revenues.

    I am the first one that wants scripters gone for good, I am just saying that nerfing any and all gameplay aspects of Ultima Online only deters legittimate players from having fun playing the game, but does nothing to address the scripters issue.

    Some other way to get to scripters and get rid of them needs be found, to my opinion, and it must no longer be making gameplay increasingly more frustrating and aggravating.

    Please, make Taming enjoyable and fun again, end the nerfing.

  • AaylaAayla Posts: 162
    popps said:

    Please, make Taming enjoyable and fun again, end the nerfing.

    If you don't like taming there's a lot of other possibilities, like quit.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,654

    @popps said
    Nope, as the Thread mentioned quite well showed, scripters just adjusted, for smarter scripting, used multiple accounts all key synchronized and kept doing what they are used to do.... script AFK, again perhaps laughing at the changes...

    So to curtail this, the devs need to do more to weaken tamers... Thanks

    The legittimate miners and lumberjackers, the legittimate IDOCErs, the legittimate tamers who all just played their 1 account at the keyboard, using their time, and enjoying mining, lumberjacking, IDOCing, Taming BEFORE they got changed and deeply hurt by those changes...

    So I am not allowed to play on more than one account?  I can kill beacons just fine with my 3 accounts. And post this reply.  You know you can set your monitor to see 4 screens pretty easily.  I just mouse to what I want active.  Beacon dead now.
  • @popps - Just go play test center 1. You can have all the drops/arties you want and make whatever template you can think of. This way you don't need to learn actual game mechanics. 

    Can we lock this troll's thread please? I don't think there is anything left to say here.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 93
    Tamers don't need nerfs. Its fine.  The person running 5 accounts is paying for 5 accounts.  Its fine.  Its not overpowered. I went to Atlantic and had no problem getting items on my single character with 75 swords.  I'll bet you I get more than one person sitting in one place attacking one respawn.   If they want to pay 70/month to get the same amount of items I do for $13 a month then fine.   Good for UO.  More content.  

    I swear you worry about things that don't really mater.  Lebron James has a nicer house and makes more money that you.  How do you sleep at night?  How about you do you?
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,373
    Theo said:
    Tamers don't need nerfs. Its fine.  The person running 5 accounts is paying for 5 accounts.  Its fine.  Its not overpowered. I went to Atlantic and had no problem getting items on my single character with 75 swords.  I'll bet you I get more than one person sitting in one place attacking one respawn.   If they want to pay 70/month to get the same amount of items I do for $13 a month then fine.   Good for UO.  More content.  

    I swear you worry about things that don't really mater.  Lebron James has a nicer house and makes more money that you.  How do you sleep at night?  How about you do you?
    A scripter does not really have to pay for 5 accounts... he can pay for 1 and get the drops there and use the remaining 4 as EJs just in support (to kill spawning Paragons instantly) of the paying account which gets the drops....

    Would the scripter get less drops ? Possibly, but why would the scripter care when all that, is done through a script and without spending time at the keyboard... the script can be left running way longer then a legittimate player actually being at the keyboard ever could, unless they really had a ton of free time to play a game....

    So, I guess, it not necessarily is "fine".... yet, it gets legittimate players playing their Tamer much hurt because of the nerfs to address scripters which are not much affected by those nerfs....

    Just sayin.....
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,729Moderator
    Time to put a halt to this one I think
This discussion has been closed.