Devs, to give thieves some love, why don't you make the ICE drops spawn in Dungeon Chests ?

Max_Blackoak

popps said:

Kyronix said:

“an ELF, with 100 Hiding, 120 Stealthing and 120 Ninjitsu and running a Ninjitsu Shadow Mastery would still get revealed by Paragons no matter what.”

Superman is always gonna have his kryptonite

That being said, obviously the schedule is pretty tight, but the top of my list for future enhancements to Dynamic ToTs is adding support stealing.  

Thanks for the feedback!

@ Kyronix

Well, thanks for the heads up....

If you are planning to add support to Rogues in Dynamic ToT (picking Locks, Removing Traps, and looting Dungeon Chests, I would not personally call it stealing, more Treasure Hunting or a Rogue thing.... but I can see how to others, taking from a Dungeon chest which is not theirs could be very well seen as stealing....) which is truly a great thing, but PLEASE, do consider then some way to find mechanics to support Thieves/Rogues need to stay hidden and be able to stealth since, given the heavy load of skills that they need to carry for their Profession, they simply cannot be fighters and fight spawn, especially the Paragons.... their only defense is to STAY hidden and do their Chests' picking, traps removing and looting while staying in the hide....

Check it out....

- 120 Stealing
- 100 Snooping
- 100 Lockpicking
- 100 Detect Hidden
- 100 Remove Trap
- 100 Hiding
- 120 Stealthing

That's already 740 skil points there.... no room whatsoever to have any fighting abilities for a seriously invested Thief/Rogue. Hell, there is not even any room for Magery for a recall !!

If it needs be, make it necessary to have them all be REAL skill points by finally introducing Thieves' Masteries (can this be a suggestion ? https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/45491/#Comment_45491 ) so that it won't be possible to create hybrid Templates using skill items and, if necessary, make it also that such a Mastery to help keep a Thief/Rogue STAY hidden, will have to have ALL those skills in real points on their Templaye (yes, 720 skill points all REAL in Stealing, Snooping, Lockpicking, Detect Hidden, Remove Trap, Hiding and Stealthing) but please, permit to Thieves/Rogue to remain hidden and stealthing while doing their profession or, at the very least, if not from stealing, at least allow the staying hidden from picking Dungeon Chests, Removing their Traps and looting the chests with all related skills being maxed out and leaving the getting revealed, sometimes (not a 100% guaranteed reveal... the thief would still be totally defenseless if caught into fighting....) when stealing from someone is involved...

But please, do not force fighing on a Template which has hardly any chance to self defend, given how heavily the Template needs many Rogue related skills in order to fully function for that profession.... a thief's or Rogue's best defense is staying in the Shadow, unseen, and not in the plain out sun light....

Thanks.

you make it seem like everytime a stealther gets revealed he's dead. Just run around a corner to break line of sight and hide.

Victim_Of_Siege

popps said:

Seth said:

Maybe someone should try the chests in Ice. After say 100 chests maybe can find some drops in there too.

From the news, something about thieves:

The present winter…

Each night, the thief dreamt of losing all his ill-gotten wealth. Sometimes, a great chasm would open to swallow his treasure horde. Other nights, he was running through the snow, arms filled with coins, jewelry, and magic weapons, only to have the wind snatch all of them away. Purlonio could not allow this to happen.

The thief had burgled a mage with a reputation for collecting powerful artifacts, hoping one of them could protect his treasure. Purlonio moved his stash to the frozen caves north of Wrong prison. It was far from the city’s bustle and avoided by people like him.

The thief decided to start with the smallest of the stolen baubles and work his way up. Picking up a silver locket, Purlonio waved it in the air. When nothing happened, the thief pried it open with a knife.

There came a great cold and terrifying roar from the locket, and the thief threw it across the cavern. Frost and snow billowed from the silver trinket, and Purlonio could see monstrous forms in the chaos. The terrified thief fled.

The locket was open, and the winter was free.

Maybe someone should try the chests in Ice. After say 100 chests maybe can find some drops in there too.

Do you know how long it would take for a Rogue to go to 100 dungeon chests, pick the locks, remove the traps, and how many deaths and investment of time would be necessary for all that ?

HOURS.....

Better get started then. 

Seth

popps said:

The KEY to have players be able to play WHATEVER Template that they would like, is by giving them "moreless" the same drop rate in the same amount of playing time.... anything different WOULD NOT WORK, to my opinion, since players, that I noticed, then to most always maximize their drop rate...

Hmm, why didn't you ask for Power Scrolls, Mastery, and all the other 1000s of artifacts to be obtainable by ANY template we like to use? I would love my beggar to get a Cameo within one hour.

Pawain

popps said:

Who, I need to wonder, would EVER want to spent that much time for a single drop when, with another Template, they could get a LOT more drops ?

Then why are you trying to do this?  

Seth

popps said:

Do you know how long it would take for a Rogue to go to 100 dungeon chests, pick the locks, remove the traps, and how many deaths and investment of time would be necessary for all that ?

HOURS.....

In that same time, the same exact player with a Warrior, could get HUNDREDS of drops, not just 1....

What makes you think warriors are having a good time collecting the drops easily? Didn't we just feedback the paragons are really tough and sampires cannot leech life from them?

100 chests is too tough... so you mean you want to have a drop in every chest, or several drops per chest. Do you think that is fair to warriors, tamers and mages who die fighting paragons and hundreds of monsters just to get less than 5 drops an hour?

So you want an easier way for your preferred template to get the drops than other templates?

popps

Pawain said:

popps said:

Who, I need to wonder, would EVER want to spent that much time for a single drop when, with another Template, they could get a LOT more drops ?

Then why are you trying to do this?  

No, I am talking about something different....

I do not want to see being used Templates which would take forever to get a drop as compared to a Warrior, for example, that can get a drop way, but waaaay much faster....

I would like to see something else, in order to see game mechanics to appeal players more to use not just Warriors for their "besting" drop rate but at least a variety or more Templates (for example Tamers, Bards, Rogues etc.).... which it is, to have drop rate times be more "equalized" in between the various Templates possible for players to use for that Event.

Only in this way, I am convinced, players would feel sufficiently free to really use whatever Template they enjoy to play and use and not the one that "works the best" because the Event mechanics happen to award that particular Template of the best and fastest drop rate among all various Templates possible for that Event.

popps

Seth said:

popps said:

Do you know how long it would take for a Rogue to go to 100 dungeon chests, pick the locks, remove the traps, and how many deaths and investment of time would be necessary for all that ?

HOURS.....

In that same time, the same exact player with a Warrior, could get HUNDREDS of drops, not just 1....

What makes you think warriors are having a good time collecting the drops easily? Didn't we just feedback the paragons are really tough and sampires cannot leech life from them?

100 chests is too tough... so you mean you want to have a drop in every chest, or several drops per chest. Do you think that is fair to warriors, tamers and mages who die fighting paragons and hundreds of monsters just to get less than 5 drops an hour?

So you want an easier way for your preferred template to get the drops than other templates?

I am just saying, take what the "average" Warrior drop rate is in X playing time and make the mechanics for "other" Templates, be them Bards, Tamers, Rogues, whatever which are enabled to play that given Event for drops, be given the same "average" drop rate considering the different time to kill that Bards or Tamers might have as compared to Warriors and for Rogues to open up Dungeon Chests....

Average vs average.

Then, is a player is really good with their Warrior or with their Bard or Tamer or Rogue then can well get more drops in that X time, but on "average", all Templates intended to play a given Event should be given the same drop rate in the same X playing time, me thinks.

RockStaR

popps said:

Seth said:

popps said:

Do you know how long it would take for a Rogue to go to 100 dungeon chests, pick the locks, remove the traps, and how many deaths and investment of time would be necessary for all that ?

HOURS.....

In that same time, the same exact player with a Warrior, could get HUNDREDS of drops, not just 1....

What makes you think warriors are having a good time collecting the drops easily? Didn't we just feedback the paragons are really tough and sampires cannot leech life from them?

100 chests is too tough... so you mean you want to have a drop in every chest, or several drops per chest. Do you think that is fair to warriors, tamers and mages who die fighting paragons and hundreds of monsters just to get less than 5 drops an hour?

So you want an easier way for your preferred template to get the drops than other templates?

I am just saying, take what the "average" Warrior drop rate is in X playing time and make the mechanics for "other" Templates, be them Bards, Tamers, Rogues, whatever which are enabled to play that given Event for drops, be given the same "average" drop rate considering the different time to kill that Bards or Tamers might have as compared to Warriors and for Rogues to open up Dungeon Chests....

Average vs average.

Then, is a player is really good with their Warrior or with their Bard or Tamer or Rogue then can well get more drops in that X time, but on "average", all Templates intended to play a given Event should be given the same drop rate in the same X playing time, me thinks.

Ummm.. @popps

Excuse me??

Pretty sure they all have the same drop rate, some just kill faster than others. Drop rate is a very small percentage chance poops. You're now mixing up drop rate and killing time. Which you are too busy on here to get any killing done. Trolling looks bad on you poops. All templates have the same drop rate in  x playing time, you just have to kill as many. Have a good day poops.

Seth

popps:

I am just saying, take what the "average" Warrior drop rate is in X playing time and make the mechanics for "other" Templates, be them Bards, Tamers, Rogues, whatever which are enabled to play that given Event for drops, be given the same "average" drop rate considering the different time to kill that Bards or Tamers might have as compared to Warriors and for Rogues to open up Dungeon Chests....

Average vs average.

Then, is a player is really good with their Warrior or with their Bard or Tamer or Rogue then can well get more drops in that X time, but on "average", all Templates intended to play a given Event should be given the same drop rate in the same X playing time, me thinks.

Ok fair enough, let’s compare average to average. 

As an average warrior, I think I can get about 5 to 8 drops an hour depending on luck. Sorry I lost count how many paragons or monsters I have to kill.

So for your Rogue, how many chests can you pick in an hour? 

Pawain

popps said:

The KEY to have players be able to play WHATEVER Template that they would like, is by giving them "moreless" the same drop rate in the same amount of playing time.... anything different WOULD NOT WORK, to my opinion, since players, that I noticed, then to most always maximize their drop rate...

Classic.  What if I want to play my mindblast mage,  I do not care if all the mobs have 80+ cold resists my mage is afraid of fire.

Then I want to get the same amount of drops as everyone else does with my camping/taste id/Arms lore/ forensics/ begging/ animal herder. 

This isn't fair if I I cant use what I want!

Victim_Of_Siege

Pawain said:

popps said:

The KEY to have players be able to play WHATEVER Template that they would like, is by giving them "moreless" the same drop rate in the same amount of playing time.... anything different WOULD NOT WORK, to my opinion, since players, that I noticed, then to most always maximize their drop rate...

Classic.  What if I want to play my mindblast mage,  I do not care if all the mobs have 80+ cold resists my mage is afraid of fire.

Then I want to get the same amount of drops as everyone else does with my camping/taste id/Arms lore/ forensics/ begging/ animal herder. 

This isn't fair if I I cant use what I want!

you forgot Item ID, just sayin . . .

popps

RockStaR said:

popps said:

Seth said:

popps said:

Do you know how long it would take for a Rogue to go to 100 dungeon chests, pick the locks, remove the traps, and how many deaths and investment of time would be necessary for all that ?

HOURS.....

In that same time, the same exact player with a Warrior, could get HUNDREDS of drops, not just 1....

What makes you think warriors are having a good time collecting the drops easily? Didn't we just feedback the paragons are really tough and sampires cannot leech life from them?

100 chests is too tough... so you mean you want to have a drop in every chest, or several drops per chest. Do you think that is fair to warriors, tamers and mages who die fighting paragons and hundreds of monsters just to get less than 5 drops an hour?

So you want an easier way for your preferred template to get the drops than other templates?

I am just saying, take what the "average" Warrior drop rate is in X playing time and make the mechanics for "other" Templates, be them Bards, Tamers, Rogues, whatever which are enabled to play that given Event for drops, be given the same "average" drop rate considering the different time to kill that Bards or Tamers might have as compared to Warriors and for Rogues to open up Dungeon Chests....

Average vs average.

Then, is a player is really good with their Warrior or with their Bard or Tamer or Rogue then can well get more drops in that X time, but on "average", all Templates intended to play a given Event should be given the same drop rate in the same X playing time, me thinks.

Ummm.. @ popps

Excuse me??

Pretty sure they all have the same drop rate, some just kill faster than others. Drop rate is a very small percentage chance poops. You're now mixing up drop rate and killing time. Which you are too busy on here to get any killing done. Trolling looks bad on you poops. All templates have the same drop rate in  x playing time, you just have to kill as many. Have a good day poops.

I must be unfortunate to explain myself well enough.... sorry about it...

The drop rate should NOT be the same because, as you said, the ability to "trigger" that drop is not the same among different Templates...

Let me explain myself better....

If the drop rate is only tied to a "kill", of course that those who kill faster will get more drops as compared to those who kill slower....

Now, if this was contained among players all playing the same Template, this would not be an issue because it would depend on players playing that same Template better and, thus, killing faster and thus getting more drops.

But when we address "different" Templates with a different ability and speed to kill, then it becomes clear that it is NOT possible, for different Templates, to tie the drop rate to a kill because then, this would create gross inequalities among players in their ability to get drops with different Templates.

And that is where I am saying that the drop rate should be "different" depending on the Template with the Designed mechanics having the goal to produce for players the SAME amount of drops in the same amount of time for different Templates.

Let me make an example to further better clarify myself.

Let us assume that, a player playing a Sampire can, on average get 10 kills a minute (1 every 6 seconds) or 600 in an hour of gameplay.

In that 1 hour of gameplay the Sampire gets, let's say, 10 drops.

So, on average, the drop rate would be like 1 drop every 60 kills.

Now, let's take a Bard.

The Bard, let's assume, that he can only get 1 kill per minute or, 60 kills in an hour of gameplay.

So, the efficiency of the Bard in killing a MoB is 1/10th that of a Sampire.

Now, "if" the drop rate was tied to the number of kills (1 every 60 kills), in 1 hour of gameplay, the Bard, killing only 60 MoBs in 1 hour playing time, would only get 1 drop in that hour...

Now, THIS is what I see it as wrong.

The common denominator, to my opinion, should NOT be how many drop per kill BUT, rather, the SAME (o moreless same) number of drops in the same amount of playing time to equalize the different Templates and, thus, give to players freedom of choice of what Template they might want to play with.

So, in my example, to make it possible, to my opinion, for players to be freely able to play with whatever template, the mechanics for drops should be so that, if a Sampire had a drop rate of 1 drop every 60 kills, the Bard, instead, should have 1 drop every 6 kills.

This way, in the same 1 hour of game play, they would both moreless get those 10 drops only, the Sampire would have to kill 600 times while the Bard 60 times.... but in the end, it would take them that same 1 hour playing time since to Bards killing MoBs takes more time as compared to Sampires.

I hope that this time I was better able to explain myself and my argument.

Pawain

So you want to stand in the entry for an hour and have your rewards drop into your backpack at a given average rate.

Does not take a novel to write that.

Aragorn

Pawain said:

So you want to stand in the entry for an hour and have your rewards drop into your backpack at a given average rate.

Does not take a novel to write that.

for camping skill yes, i think this is what he’s referring to. 

popps

Seth said:

popps:

I am just saying, take what the "average" Warrior drop rate is in X playing time and make the mechanics for "other" Templates, be them Bards, Tamers, Rogues, whatever which are enabled to play that given Event for drops, be given the same "average" drop rate considering the different time to kill that Bards or Tamers might have as compared to Warriors and for Rogues to open up Dungeon Chests....

Average vs average.

Then, is a player is really good with their Warrior or with their Bard or Tamer or Rogue then can well get more drops in that X time, but on "average", all Templates intended to play a given Event should be given the same drop rate in the same X playing time, me thinks.

Ok fair enough, let’s compare average to average. 

As an average warrior, I think I can get about 5 to 8 drops an hour depending on luck. Sorry I lost count how many paragons or monsters I have to kill.

So for your Rogue, how many chests can you pick in an hour? 

It depends on the environment and the mechanics involved.

Would Paragons or intense cold reveal the Rogue so that he/she would have to run away, not being able to self defend for lack of combat skills ?

Then this would greatly slow down the ability to open up chests thus greatly reducing the ability to loot them.

In such a case, the frequency to find drops in chests should be very high to compensate for that.

Also, what about the trap ?

Would having 100.0 Remove Trap make it possible to remove the trap and then open the chest while remaining hidden ?

Because, if the failure rate was to be high also at 100.0 and the failure had the trap go off revealing the Rogue and damaging him/her with spawn around that could then more easily kill him, this would farther slow down greatly the looting process...

Furthermore, "theoretically" having high Nijitsu, being an Elf, using the Shadow Mastery "should" make it possible to sustain more damage without getting revealed... would this work if a trap went off from failing to remove it and thus remain the Rogue hidden also from fails ?

This would also make a difference in the time that a Rogue could be able to open up dungeon chests and loot them....

So, it is extremely difficult to give you an answer without knowing what the related mechanics will be.

popps

Pawain said:

popps said:

The KEY to have players be able to play WHATEVER Template that they would like, is by giving them "moreless" the same drop rate in the same amount of playing time.... anything different WOULD NOT WORK, to my opinion, since players, that I noticed, then to most always maximize their drop rate...

Classic.  What if I want to play my mindblast mage,  I do not care if all the mobs have 80+ cold resists my mage is afraid of fire.

Then I want to get the same amount of drops as everyone else does with my camping/taste id/Arms lore/ forensics/ begging/ animal herder. 

This isn't fair if I I cant use what I want!

For that matter, one could also ask to use a character with Begging and want drops from begging from Monsters inside a Dungeon....

I am not saying that any and all Templates should be able to equally get drops, whether using Camping, Begging or a Mage using Mind Blast.... or whatever else....

But at least, there should be, to my opinion, "some" flexibility given to players to "at least" be able to use a number of Templates, say Bards, Tamers, Rogues, Spellcasters and some others while still being able to get the same amount of drops that Warriors get, even if their killing rate or dungeon chests' openings was to be slower as that of the Warriors.

This, because, I am convinced that, as long as players won't be able to get by using other Templates moreless the same amount of drops in the same playing time as Warriors may get, it is difficult that most players might want to use a Template that is not "as efficient" as a Warrior is, in getting drops, even though they would enjoy playing another Template more then a Warrior....

Aragorn

We shouldn't let thief to get all the loves from devs!

Blacksmith / tailor / carpenter should have a chance to get a drop when they're salvaging loots from treasure of mobs. 

Artificer should have a chance to get a drop when they are unraveling loots from treasure of mobs. 

Detective should have a chance to get a drop when using forensic evaluation on treasure of mob's corpse.

Treasure hunter should have a chance to get a drop when doing the treasure maps dropping from treasure of mobs.

Fisher should have a chance to get a drop when fishing in the dungeon when the event is activated. 

Miner should have a chance to get a drop when mining in the dungeon or smelling the iron ore dropping from snow elemental when the event is activated. 

popps

Aragorn said:

We shouldn't let thief to get all the loves from devs!

Blacksmith / tailor / carpenter should have a chance to get a drop when they're salvaging loots from treasure of mobs. 

Artificer should have a chance to get a drop when they are unraveling loots from treasure of mobs. 

Detective should have a chance to get a drop when using forensic evaluation on treasure of mob's corpse.

Treasure hunter should have a chance to get a drop when doing the treasure maps dropping from treasure of mobs.

Fisher should have a chance to get a drop when fishing in the dungeon when the event is activated. 

Miner should have a chance to get a drop when smelling the iron ore dropping from snow elemental when the event is activated. 

Reductio ad absurdum ?

No thanks.

As I said in my post here https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/50784/#Comment_50784 , trying to make such an extreme argument to prove my point as not valid has no ground, to my opinion.

As of now, it is Warriors, and ONLY Warriors who are the most effective Template for drops.

I am NOT advocate for using any and all Templates to be able to get drops likewise BUT, at the very least, to have a good number of viable and feasible Templates then YES, by all means I think should be possible to make the Event setting more viable and varied, with players being freely able to play different Templates, because they would not suffer a loss in drops in doing that.

My point being, why should it always be Warriors when it can "also" be Tamers, Bards, Rogues, Spellcasters and some other Templates who could participate to these Dynamic ToT Events without necessarily wanting to bring into the argument also skills like Camping, Begging, Taste ID and what not to reduce the validity of the argument of wanting more Templates besides Warriors as viable at these Events ?

Pawain

Warriors YES.  This is a an event where you kill stuff to get drops!

Do the content for the skills you have, Beggers get a month of drops from begging. Crafters get BOD rewards year round.

Do the things your skills were made for.

And any warrior template can get drops if you can kill the easy mobs there.  This is the 3rd time I have invited you to come to LS and look at all the templates having fun in Ice right now.

Ignorance is not a reason to ask for changes.

popps

Pawain said:

Warriors YES.  This is a an event where you kill stuff to get drops!

Do the content for the skills you have, Beggers get a month of drops from begging. Crafters get BOD rewards year round.

Do the things your skills were made for.

And any warrior template can get drops if you can kill the easy mobs there.  This is the 3rd time I have invited you to come to LS and look at all the templates having fun in Ice right now.

Ignorance is not a reason to ask for changes.

I can understand that some players playing Warriors Templates enjoy the status quo and do not want it changed because their Template most always gets the best.... that does not mean though, that "other" Templates which "other" players happen to prefer and enjoy playing should not be made "equally" playeable (which, in my book means being capable of getting moreless the same number of drops in the same playing time as Warriors, "on average" do....).

Sure, a player who only had a Tamer to play or a Bard would still be playing it.... the point I am making is an entire others which it is, that most players who have various Templates to play, with these Dynamic Tot Events seem to most always pick the Warrior rather then other Templates to play the Event....

And why is that ?

Because, apparently, the Events' mechanics seem to favour them making Warriors the "most efficient" Template to be used (i.e. to get most drops in the same given time...) as compared to other ones.

And, to my viewing, this should not be if we wanted to really give to players the freedom to use the Template of their choice and which they enjoy, and not the one that "works the best"....

Aragorn

popps said:

Aragorn said:

We shouldn't let thief to get all the loves from devs!

Blacksmith / tailor / carpenter should have a chance to get a drop when they're salvaging loots from treasure of mobs. 

Artificer should have a chance to get a drop when they are unraveling loots from treasure of mobs. 

Detective should have a chance to get a drop when using forensic evaluation on treasure of mob's corpse.

Treasure hunter should have a chance to get a drop when doing the treasure maps dropping from treasure of mobs.

Fisher should have a chance to get a drop when fishing in the dungeon when the event is activated. 

Miner should have a chance to get a drop when smelling the iron ore dropping from snow elemental when the event is activated. 

Reductio ad absurdum ?

No thanks.

My point being, why should it always be Warriors when it can "also" be Tamers, Bards, Rogues, Spellcasters and some other Templates who could participate to these Dynamic ToT Events without necessarily wanting to bring into the argument also skills like Camping, Begging, Taste ID and what not to reduce the validity of the argument of wanting more Templates besides Warriors as viable at these Events ?

Tamers and mages are doing good if you are using the right area of damage pet / spells. 

Bards have issue with provo and devs are looking into it. 

Rogues are being added into the to-do list thanks to your persistent effort. 

I've proposed what it could be done for other templates and you're saying I'm too extreme. 

We've covered all scenarios what else you still want to complain? 

RockStaR

@Aragorn it's classic that Mr. Poops is saying that you're too extreme. 

McDougle

Aragorn said:

We shouldn't let thief to get all the loves from devs!

Fisher should have a chance to get a drop when fishing in the dungeon when the event is activated. 

Garr Grimbeard approves of this message in fact he demands a drop and a hummer lobster with every cast !!

Seth

lol, I find the above posts quite entertaining and amusing, nice jokes for the weekend and stressful days. Finally there is hope I can Beg my way to whatever I want.... Legendary Begging and mastery should allow drops to poop from paragons in one hour's effort... 

Valis

One day the mods will just start insta locking threads that popps makes. Because they are all the goddamn same.

Mariah

Locked by popular request