Consecrate Weapon & Enemy of One not Working Properly in PvP

Lynk

When I play UO, I really enjoy theory craft and coming up with templates.  I do a lot of the math in advance to understand damage potential.

My goal was to see how hard I could hit.  What the actual damage was came out far below what I had on paper.  I decided to dig in to figure out where my math came out wrong. For the purposes of this test I used a lower end damage weapon, not trying to max everything out.

My math normally is not wrong.  When I use the same logic below to determine evil omen impact, ornate axe crushing, etc the damage all works out with my math.

My test was against an opponent with 70 resists in every resist, except 75 fire.  I did not pot up for the purposes of this test, so that damage window of 42-58 is a constant (screenshot below).  I was using a crafted 100% physical damage weapon.



So, you take the damage window of 42 * .3 (going against 70 physical) - my minimum damage should be 12.6 (rounded down).  Highest should be 17.4 (rounded down).  I should hit anywhere between 12 and 17. 

100 test swings, no damage ever rolled higher or lower.  Great, math works.

Next - add Consecrate weapon.  This image is taken from my buff bar after casting it on this character.  Previous publish notes indicate that enemy of one, consecrate weapon, slayers, crushing blow, and all that other extra damage from spells/specials is treated as modifiers (subject to 300% cap in PvM but not PvP).



I should be able to take my original damage window of 12.6 + (42*.15*.3)  [low end damage * modifier % * .3 because 70 phys). 14.49, same math on the up side comes out to 20.01.  Ok, damage range should be 14-20.

Actual damage range after 100 swings:  13-18. 

I figured, maybe we are rounding down to the integer value at every level of the equation.  Nope, because that would put the range at 13-19.  Never saw higher than 18.

Then I said, maybe it's not an actual modifier but damage increase?  Nope, because it did move my range up by 1 on the low and high end of actual damage output.  

I repeated the test for enemy of one.  See below, taken from my buff bar on the character doing the attacking.



Normal math says my damage range should be 16.002 - 22.098 (round down to 16-22).  [same math used -   12.6 + (42*.27*.3) and then repeated for the high end.

Actual damage range after 100 swings - 13-18.

Again, I did the math rounding at every level of the formula and that put the range from 15-21.  So still not right.

Again - not treated as damage increase because my damage range did in fact move up 1 on both low and high end.

And lastly, when I cast them both to hit my target.  

Normal math says damage range should be 17.892 - 24.708 (rounded down to 17-24).

Actual observed damage range: 14-19

Doing the math rounding down at every level shows 16-23.

Again, not damage increase because it bumped my damage range by two on both the low and high end.

Lynk

Update - with the help of a friend we were trying to figure out how we could possibly make this math actually work.  It appears that it is not assigning this to the Damage Modifier (which is multaplicative), it is assigning it to the Damage Increase, which is additive.  When I used the stratics damage calculator and added the 15% from consecrate and the 27% from enemy of one, the math worked out.

Essentially, instead of calculating with 100% DI from items, it was 142%.  Traditionally, the damage increase value cannot exceed 100% (grapes of wrath, and other consumeables).

My question is, is that intended?  Why would it be considered a modifier and subject to 300% cap for PvM but simply added in to the damage increase.

Lynk

Why is Enemy of One and Consecrate Weapon 'Damage Increase'  (additive) in PvP but 'Damage Modifier' in PvM (multaplicative)

quickblade

I would think maybe the damage modifiers from consecrate weapon and EoO would be on the base damage of the weapon before your DI from items is applied, what weapon were you using ?

Lynk

just a crafted disc mace.  It's not what you said.  That was the first thing I checked.  I did the math, and the damage lines up exactly as taking 'Damage Increase' over the 100% mark.  The added percentages are supposed to go toward damage modifier, which is multaplicitive.

Lynk

Hi, the damage bonus type is still incorrectly being applied to Damage Increase over 100 cap rather than Damage Modifier.

Lynk

Good morning, the damage bonus is still being applied incorrectly to damage increase and not modifier from both Consecrate and Enemy of One.

Aragorn

For EoO, there is a hard cap in PVP at 16% (https://www.uoguide.com/Enemy_of_One)

so the maths seems right if you do rounding at each level. 

Not sure if there is any cap for consecrate weapon in pvp I can't find any info yet. 

Lynk

No the math doesnt work that way i did the math and walked through the formulas above with specific results.  The math only works if you treat it as damage increase that goes over 100%.  Dont read 1/3rd of a post and respond.

quickblade

I think I figured it out, your consecrate and EoO are acting like damage increase because it is damage increase, in pvm its a 300% cap apart from the 100% DI from items... in pvp there is the 300% cap also its just impossible to reach the full 300% because players arnt slayer vulnerable (unless he's in undead form or wearing opp. slayer item), players arnt honorable and values from EoO are much lower in pvp. Try some grapes of wrath with 100% DI from items , and see if it increase your damage on a player, or maybe the bard songs or other DI consumables/buffs

Lynk

I already said that.  I said its taking damage increase over the 100 cap.  Grapes of wrath dont break the 100 cap.

Its supposed to be modifier but its being applied as damage increase.  Plenty of things act as modifiers on people.  Crushing, evil omen, etc.

To be clear there is no question as to whats happening, im saying whats happening is wrong.

Pawain

Since this is an active thread.  May I ask some questions about PvM that came up yesterday.
Yesterday a player wanted to kill an air elemental over and over with melee so they made an air elemental slayer weapon and wore an  elemental Tali.  
Those 2 items made them have 300% Damage increase.  

So the question:  
If they also have 100% DI on items would they now do 400% damage increase from the base damage?

If not, do you only need 100% DI from items and a  specific slayer to get Max damage?

Would EoO increase damage in either scenario above?

I do not want to confuse players in PvP so make sure your answers say PvM.

Thanks.

quickblade

Which patch notes mentionned eoo and consecrate were damage modifiers?? its always been damage increase (300%) and apart from the 100% DI from items cap afaik.

Mariah

@Pawain to the best of my knowledge this page is accurate for pvm: Melee Damage Increase

Aragorn

@Mariah do you have the damage cap info for pvp ? is uoguide accurate in this case ? your page doesn’t have damage cap info for pvp 

Mariah

I have searched past publishes, the rest of uoguide site and googled the internet. I cannot find where that information comes from, and the only other reference I found was on grey shard sites, which have simply copied it from UOGuide. I can only appeal to @Bleak for clarification.

Pawain

Mariah said:

@ Pawain to the best of my knowledge this page is accurate for pvm: Melee Damage Increase

I came here because someone else was doing the math.

So I run 100% DI.

1. If I use a super slayer tali am I at the 300% at this point and do not need anything else?

Seems like and easy question.

Lynk

There is damage increase (from items, grapes of wrath) and then there is damage modifier (300% pvm cap, no cap ever listed for PvP because there is no way tobget there).  Modifier is for things like Crushing, evil omen, slayers, EoO and Consecrate (in pvm but not working correctly in PvP.)

The formula for all of this is on stratics as Well.

I know eoo is modifier because it was addressed in an old five on Friday and the math adds up.  Hit a mob, cast EoO, hit again.  The damage difference reflects the multaplicative nature of the damage bump.

This isnt a debate or mechanic explanation.  My observation is correct, i just want to know if its a mistake or intended.

Lynk

16 months since initial report and its still broken without acknowledgement.

Arroth_Thaiel

It might be intended @Lynk. Evidently, there were a number of other damaging "actions" that were originally Damage Increase and not Modifier, some of which exceeded the 100% Damage Increase cap, but not the 300% overall Increase cap.

Former dev Logrus spoke about some of it here (italics mine):
"May want to actually test the DI on battle lust. It is applied similar to Crushing Blow which may exceed the 100 DI but not the 300 cap."
https://community.stratics.com/threads/battle-lust.305779/

Yes, he is talking about Battle Lust, but notice he says Crushing Blow was DI and exceeded the 100 DI cap. "Was" being the key word here. Crushing Blow is now obviously Modifier. Maybe EoO and CW were also like CB and BL, but were never converted from DI to Modifier for PvP? Or maybe they were always DI for PvP?

I've been testing damaging stuff lately and have run into a lot of things that have been changed around since Logrus explanations years ago.

Seth

Pawain said:

Mariah said:

@ Pawain to the best of my knowledge this page is accurate for pvm: Melee Damage Increase

I came here because someone else was doing the math.

So I run 100% DI.

1. If I use a super slayer tali am I at the 300% at this point and do not need anything else?

Seems like and easy question.

UO is the only game that is confusing if we don't use Excel whether for crafting, gearing or simply knowing what damage to expect.

For pvm, I have done my calculations on Excel since 2015. Parameters are based on unguide, and final results are quite accurate though I may not be as precise as Lynk.

The Total Damage Increase cap is 300%  which includes damage bonus from skills + damage increase from items.

For Damage Increase, the maximum is 3x, theoretically,

Base Damage equals Weapon Damage + DI x Weapon Damage

In the above example, 53 is from 15 + 2.56x15

For Damage Modifier, the maximum is 2x, theoretically,

Final Damage equals Base Damage + DM x Base Damage

In the above example, 159 is from 53 + 1.97x53 (some rounding errors I think)

The above is just one of the templates I used when configuring my character, and all the calculations are built in, including skills and specials.

Happy to correct the table if there is anything wrong but so far the above damage figures are broadly within range of (MIN and MAX) based on my damages in PVM in the past years. 

Application

So in short for DM, the final damage is maxed out when using a lesser slayer say Air Elemental. By right, there is no need for EOO, talisman slayer, etc.

If using Super Slayer, e.g. Elemental on Cameo, then he just need another Elemental slayer on weapon.

If you honor + EOO + Consecrate, its almost close to 2x but slightly lesser. There is no need for slayer in this case, or use this when there is no slayer for a monster.

===

Back to the OP, its interesting to note how pvp would be different since characters only have 150 HP max before curse and they certainly will get poisons, omens, and bleeding and damage attrition before we land the deadly blow - which cannot be the same as PVM because those guys have 10000 HP.