Black Gate Feedback

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Comments

  • MissEMissE Posts: 727
    Merus said:
    Kyronix said:
    Merus said:
    Kyronix said:
    @ keven2002 - I brought the feedback up with the rest of the team and we decided it was best to keep it one per character.  This is to address two concerns.  Firstly, buying/selling/trading to obtain items is part of the game world.  It fosters interactions between individuals, promotes trade which drives the economy, and creates a market for items that are often scoffed at as "just deco".  Secondly, allowing one character to chain complete the quest over and over again often leads to complaints of abuse.  So to address those concerns the quest is only available once per character.

    Thanks for the feedback!
    So your first stated reason is to promote trade... but you make the items shard bound, thereby restricting the market significantly.  

    Your second stated reason... well this completely escapes me... isn’t the point of paying our subscription to PLAY THE GAME?  I can understand limiting clicky type gifts to characters or even accounts, but limiting playable content seems very counter productive to a sandbox type game.  Concerns about abuse should be handled in content design, not simply slapping a limit on participation.

    It is decisions like these that are driving players away, not bringing them back.
    I look at it from this perspective.  Currently, Atlantic serves as the primary economic hub because it has the highest population and thusly the highest demand.  What this ends up doing, with non-limited content is creating a situation where players farm low-population shards then return to Atlantic to sell those items while not actively being a part of that shard population.  As a result we often here feedback that we aren't doing anything to help boost population on low population shards. 

    Now I'd offer this - with the current implementation we have a situation where there is opportunity for players who normally wouldn't play on lower-population shards to visit that shard, play through the quest, collect the runes, sell/trade with the players of that shard to generate complete sets.  This fosters interactions between individuals on those shards and helps to build the community of that shard (player + interaction = community).  The results of those transactions can still be transferred (gold, gear, loot whatever) so we still have the benefit of game-wide trade being available.

    On a final note, as I've read, and is often said - you are making these items shard bound, why isn't item XYZ shard bound too!?  This system is new hence we have a lot more leeway to change the implementation.  Altering existing implementations is often challenging with established norms (i.e. those items are not currently shard bound). 

    Thanks for the feedback!
    I appreciate your comments.  

    I would challenge the basic premise you relied on in your position.  Your position presumes that there is a substantial enough population on low population shards to entice players to transfer there to complete content in order to effect commerce.  Unfortunately, as someone who regularly plays a low population shard, this assumption is false.

    Players farm low population shards as a means to more efficiently gather resources in a competitive environment.  Those resources are then sold/moved to the location where the demand for those resources exist.

    If demand for those resources exist on low population shards, players will sell them there... even if those resources aren’t shard bound provided the price on the low shard is competitive with the price on other shards.  This provides the incentive to play lower population shards.

    By making the items shards bound it has the opposite effect.  There is so little demand that most players will not find it worthwhile to invest in playing there... thus further reducing the population of those shards.

    IMO, you need to pick one or the other... either make them shard bound and let players collect as many as they want on their shard, as well as buy/trading to complete sets within their community OR limit it to 1 per character... definitely not both.  Personally I feel like given the fact that, as a developer, one of the paramount goals is people engaging in content, I find the first option more in line with a positive game experience.

    Couldn't agree more Merus.  People ONLY farm low pop shards for highly sort after items that are pack drops or super rare.    No one is gonna come to Oceania to get shard bound stuff.  If it wasn't shard bound once they did it per toon on their home shard they may then decide to do it on another shard with toons there, but not if stuff is shard bound, why would they bother especially as the rewards are so hit and miss and you can't even 'select' the virtue you want on the reward?  They don't have a house to display it and the time and effort required wouldn't make it worth the bother. 

    I am so close to quitting UO for good, really been hanging around to see what the major game changing announcement is, but if this event is anything to go by then the odds of me lasting much longer are slim.  I am so disappointed:

    • Shard bound deco.. ... I mean seriously?  
    • One per toon.... again... seriously?

    What those two things do is mean instead of me firstly getting a complete set for my collection, I would then normally keep doing the event for as long as I felt the urge to compile a nice stock of these items for sale/trade now and well into the future.  The content would keep me busy for the entire time it runs giving me value for money as far as game play time is concerned.  No with the way this is set up. I will do it once per toon that is ABLE to complete it then stop, why bother any more?  I can't take extras to the ONE shard that may have a market for them, nor can I do it multiple times to obtain backstock for my shop so that the things will be available in 2023 and onwards for players in the future.  Those two 'conditions' just killed the market for me as a shop owner and merchant.

    Totally useless rewards.. sick to death of eye candy, when there has been nothing offered in the way of new pets, new armors, new craftable objects, stuff that is of some USE for my characters gameplay in over a year.   What am I paying for?   The actual NICE deco sets aren't even available unless you go to shop and buy em.  Like ok, a pillow, wow........... yet the stable set or the mage set I have to pay extra for.

    This is becoming NOT MY GAME anymore.  It used to be for your subscription you got full content, full updates and expansions, now you get a deco rune and the odd item tossed at you for over a year of paying, most of us paying MORE than one account.   Like I pay over $700 bucks a year for this game and after 12 mnths they offer me a rune (which I can't even select)  and some other minor things like the  pillow etc.  As for the 'seasonal gifts' they have also just been  eye candy with zero useful items. 

    I am trying to think when the last time was a useful item was included in the gifts (ie something that a character would USE on a daily/weekly basis as part of regular gameplay and I had to go back to 2017 for the rehashed rewards token that offered previously issued items including, Scroll of Alacrity Book, Scroll of Transcendence Book, Powerscroll Book, 16 Anniversary Pony Mount, White Leather Dyetubs.  I mean seriously what exactly do we need to do to get stuff that is USEFUL that we don't need to pay for in addition to our subscription... ie anvil of artifacts... oh right that is EXTRA........... EXTRA to what?

    Sorry if it sounds negative, but frankly it IS.


    Cheers MissE

    For more info about Angelwood Warehouse Events go to the A.W.E Forum
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 783Dev
    @Merus - I appreciate the response!  Engaging in feedback in good faith helps us make better decisions for the future, so thank you for that.  It's easy to just dismiss everything with one or two sentences of dissatisfaction (or often times a wall of text!) which doesn't result in any meaningful feedback.  Unfortunately I think this is the trap most forums and exchanges have fallen into, so kudos to you for elevating the conversation!

    In your previous post you state, 

    "I would challenge the basic premise you relied on in your position.  Your position presumes that there is a substantial enough population on low population shards to entice players to transfer there to complete content in order to effect commerce.  Unfortunately, as someone who regularly plays a low population shard, this assumption is false."

    What I'm relying on is the principle that the only way to reverse the downward trend of population is to apply selective pressures to reverse that trend.  Let's say, for example, in this situation we hadn't put the restrictions in place on this content.  This results in a couple of predictable outcomes,

    • Players will intermittently congregate on lower population shards to avoid competition for completion resources while not contributing to the overall health of the community of that shard in service of obtaining a reward.
    • Those rewards are bulk transferred to Atlantic, devaluing the need to complete the content by those who play on Atlantic because there is an abundance of gold that can be traded in exchange of doing the content.  It's natural to always take the path of least resistance (gold vs time).

    Neither of these is desired outcomes.  It reduces the number of interactions between players on that shard (as they only need to farm the content, then transfer off).  It also continues to keep dead shards dead - they only serve as farming hubs for Atlantic, again not doing anything to better the health of the overall community.

    "If demand for those resources exist on low population shards, players will sell them there... even if those resources aren’t shard bound provided the price on the low shard is competitive with the price on other shards.  This provides the incentive to play lower population shards."

    I disagree this would be incentive enough to play on a lower pop shard.  You are relying on the assumption that an item can have greater value on a low population shard than on Atlantic.  I don't think this can ever be the case UNLESS the communities of those lower population shards reach a threshold of economic viability - a threshold we will never meet without selective pressures I talked about earlier OR the item has such rarity it has value everywhere.

    "By making the items shards bound it has the opposite effect.  There is so little demand that most players will not find it worthwhile to invest in playing there... thus further reducing the population of those shards."

    Again - this goes back to providing those pressures to increase demand.  Collectors are going to want to collect.  In this situation the only way to acquire a full set of the runes is for multiple characters to complete the content.  This has a couple positive outcomes, 
    • It encourages aspirational gameplay as a means to achieve a higher goal (I need multiple "good enough" characters to complete the quest objectives....what gameplay do I have to engage in as a means to achieve that goal?)
    • It encourages indirect cross shard trading, further building community through increased interactions.  (I have a Justice Rune on Lake Superior that I will trade you a Valor Rune on Chesapeake OR I will help you get Runes on Sonoma if you help me get Runes on Pacific).
    To conclude, I don't think anything is gained by once again isolating players further onto island of self-sufficiency.  Over the years pressures to promote character-character interactions have slowly been eroded in favor of one goal or another.  This quest is an experiment in seeing what happens when we dial those back.  I'm excited to see where the metrics validate.

    Again, big thanks for the response!

  • TimTim Posts: 614
    As a player on a low population shard I agree with everything @Kyronix  said.

    I also feel decorative is much better then "useful" additions. If it is just a decorative item it may or may not be something you want but it doesn't change the game. If it is something that players will use every day it will just be more power creep or change the game in some major way. I rarely use a moon gate to get to Ilshenar since I got a jawbone. That may be a good thing but changes that large should be considered VERRY carefully. 
  • MissEMissE Posts: 727
    LOL seriously you prefer decorative over useful?   well that's fine, as for the past two years ALL WE HAVE HAD IS DECORATIVE.  And most of that you have to buy in the UO store. 

    Cheers MissE

    For more info about Angelwood Warehouse Events go to the A.W.E Forum
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,782
    Kyronix said:
    Merus said:
    Kyronix said:
    @ keven2002 - I brought the feedback up with the rest of the team and we decided it was best to keep it one per character.  This is to address two concerns.  Firstly, buying/selling/trading to obtain items is part of the game world.  It fosters interactions between individuals, promotes trade which drives the economy, and creates a market for items that are often scoffed at as "just deco".  Secondly, allowing one character to chain complete the quest over and over again often leads to complaints of abuse.  So to address those concerns the quest is only available once per character.

    Thanks for the feedback!
    So your first stated reason is to promote trade... but you make the items shard bound, thereby restricting the market significantly.  

    Your second stated reason... well this completely escapes me... isn’t the point of paying our subscription to PLAY THE GAME?  I can understand limiting clicky type gifts to characters or even accounts, but limiting playable content seems very counter productive to a sandbox type game.  Concerns about abuse should be handled in content design, not simply slapping a limit on participation.

    It is decisions like these that are driving players away, not bringing them back.
    I look at it from this perspective.  Currently, Atlantic serves as the primary economic hub because it has the highest population and thusly the highest demand.  What this ends up doing, with non-limited content is creating a situation where players farm low-population shards then return to Atlantic to sell those items while not actively being a part of that shard population.  As a result we often here feedback that we aren't doing anything to help boost population on low population shards. 

    Now I'd offer this - with the current implementation we have a situation where there is opportunity for players who normally wouldn't play on lower-population shards to visit that shard, play through the quest, collect the runes, sell/trade with the players of that shard to generate complete sets.  This fosters interactions between individuals on those shards and helps to build the community of that shard (player + interaction = community).  The results of those transactions can still be transferred (gold, gear, loot whatever) so we still have the benefit of game-wide trade being available.

    On a final note, as I've read, and is often said - you are making these items shard bound, why isn't item XYZ shard bound too!?  This system is new hence we have a lot more leeway to change the implementation.  Altering existing implementations is often challenging with established norms (i.e. those items are not currently shard bound). 

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Now I'd offer this - with the current implementation we have a situation where there is opportunity for players who normally wouldn't play on lower-population shards to visit that shard, play through the quest, collect the runes, sell/trade with the players of that shard to generate complete sets.  This fosters interactions between individuals on those shards and helps to build the community of that shard (player + interaction = community).  The results of those transactions can still be transferred (gold, gear, loot whatever) so we still have the benefit of game-wide trade being available.
    The bolded part is mine to highlight how I so much agree with the Developers on that !!

    That is precisely the main scope and role of Shard Bound items !!

    That to promote players to actually PLAY on low population Shards to enhance and better the economies of those Shards through Shard Bound items and not only further boost Atlantic which does not need it.

    I am all in for Shard Bound items !!

    Kudos to the Developers and thanks !!

  • poppspopps Posts: 1,782
    Merus said:
    Kyronix said:
    Merus said:
    Kyronix said:
    @ keven2002 - I brought the feedback up with the rest of the team and we decided it was best to keep it one per character.  This is to address two concerns.  Firstly, buying/selling/trading to obtain items is part of the game world.  It fosters interactions between individuals, promotes trade which drives the economy, and creates a market for items that are often scoffed at as "just deco".  Secondly, allowing one character to chain complete the quest over and over again often leads to complaints of abuse.  So to address those concerns the quest is only available once per character.

    Thanks for the feedback!
    So your first stated reason is to promote trade... but you make the items shard bound, thereby restricting the market significantly.  

    Your second stated reason... well this completely escapes me... isn’t the point of paying our subscription to PLAY THE GAME?  I can understand limiting clicky type gifts to characters or even accounts, but limiting playable content seems very counter productive to a sandbox type game.  Concerns about abuse should be handled in content design, not simply slapping a limit on participation.

    It is decisions like these that are driving players away, not bringing them back.
    I look at it from this perspective.  Currently, Atlantic serves as the primary economic hub because it has the highest population and thusly the highest demand.  What this ends up doing, with non-limited content is creating a situation where players farm low-population shards then return to Atlantic to sell those items while not actively being a part of that shard population.  As a result we often here feedback that we aren't doing anything to help boost population on low population shards. 

    Now I'd offer this - with the current implementation we have a situation where there is opportunity for players who normally wouldn't play on lower-population shards to visit that shard, play through the quest, collect the runes, sell/trade with the players of that shard to generate complete sets.  This fosters interactions between individuals on those shards and helps to build the community of that shard (player + interaction = community).  The results of those transactions can still be transferred (gold, gear, loot whatever) so we still have the benefit of game-wide trade being available.

    On a final note, as I've read, and is often said - you are making these items shard bound, why isn't item XYZ shard bound too!?  This system is new hence we have a lot more leeway to change the implementation.  Altering existing implementations is often challenging with established norms (i.e. those items are not currently shard bound). 

    Thanks for the feedback!
    I appreciate your comments.  

    I would challenge the basic premise you relied on in your position.  Your position presumes that there is a substantial enough population on low population shards to entice players to transfer there to complete content in order to effect commerce.  Unfortunately, as someone who regularly plays a low population shard, this assumption is false.

    Players farm low population shards as a means to more efficiently gather resources in a competitive environment.  Those resources are then sold/moved to the location where the demand for those resources exist.

    If demand for those resources exist on low population shards, players will sell them there... even if those resources aren’t shard bound provided the price on the low shard is competitive with the price on other shards.  This provides the incentive to play lower population shards.

    By making the items shards bound it has the opposite effect.  There is so little demand that most players will not find it worthwhile to invest in playing there... thus further reducing the population of those shards.

    IMO, you need to pick one or the other... either make them shard bound and let players collect as many as they want on their shard, as well as buy/trading to complete sets within their community OR limit it to 1 per character... definitely not both.  Personally I feel like given the fact that, as a developer, one of the paramount goals is people engaging in content, I find the first option more in line with a positive game experience.
    Players farm low population shards as a means to more efficiently gather resources in a competitive environment.  Those resources are then sold/moved to the location where the demand for those resources exist.
    My opinion is, that players, for the most part, end up farming low population Shards for items to then take them to Atlantic not because they cannot sell them on those low population Shards, but more, because on Atlantic they can sell them for more gold as compared to what they could be selling them on that lower population Shard....

    So, is my viewing, it is not a matter of not being able to sell those items on a low population Shard but, rather, a matter of wanting to sell for more gold as they could sell them for on that lower population Shard....

    Infact, there is a lot of "resellers" who do not even farm for those items on lower population Shards BUT, rather, they "scout" the Vendors on lower population Shard to buy those items much cheaper on those lower population Shards, and take them to Atlantic to resell them there at a considerably higher price....

    If items where shard bound, these resellers could not do this.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,782
    Kyronix said:
    @ Victim_Of_Siege - you will have plenty of time - that's the can-do spirit I've come to expect from seasoned Britannians! Good luck!
    @Kyronix ;

    On the topic, can Endless Journey characters participate in the Quests AND get the stones Rewards just fine ?
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,782
    So I tried one of my EJ accounts and i was able to complete the Shamino quest on it. If this is intended for EJ, then problem solved, i'll just make mages and use my tamer to support their efforts in killing the UBEV, Trogs, And Dragons. Should be no issue, unless of course EJ shouldn't be able to do the quests @ Kyronix

    *i'm thinking EJ isn't as i can take the quest from Jaana but i cannot get the scroll to pop in my pack to complete it.

      EJ characters can start the quest but not complete it. If you take the quest, then go to Julia's pool of blood, you'll get the message that you collect a vial of blood, but none will appear in your backpack. A closer inspection of the system message will reveal the "EJ accounts cannot access this item" notice when clicking on the blood pool. (I tried this first, that's why I was trying to come up with the next easiest way to do it!)
    That's odd.....

    I mean, EJ accounts are a means to get new players get hooked up to Ultima Online and, I would imagine, being able to participare to these new Quests might work as a way to get them appreciate playing Ultima Online and eventually want to subscribe to it....

    In theory, EJ accounts doing these new Quests might be seen to work against promoting players to trade double stones with one another and, thus, help the interaction between players which is always a good thing BUT, is my opinion, this is only an "apparent" concern because, in the end, even if a player was to use 10 EJ accounts to get lots of these stones, if this players ended up (being them random) with, say 5 or 6 of the same type, why wouldn't they then want to trade them with other players missing those stones ?

    Furthermore, being Shard Bound, it is not like permitting EJ accounts to get these stones would end up with such an over production of them ending up on Atlantic.....

    So, is my conclusion, I honestly do not see how permitting EJ accounts to do these Quests would be detrimental in any way.

    Players would still trade their doubles.

    The only thing which might suffer could be the "sales" of these stones as more accounts being able to get them would mean more stones existing on any given Shard and, thus, their value going down....

    But I would not see this as a big concern at all.... there is plenty way to make golds in UO that we do not need these stones to be yet another way to further accumulate gold....

    At least, that is how I see it.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,782
    Larisa said:
    Pawain said:
    I will get a full set on Origin if it kills me. I will keep deleting a character and stoning skills until i do, if that is what it takes. Hopefully @ Kyronix, it will last long enough for that to happen
    I have a bunch of the quest items that require no fighting on Origin. Nobody wanted to buy them.
    Because those are the easiest ones to get! Do the Dragon one or the Compassion Sage one and I will buy them ;)

    My crafter can kill 50 trogs.....but not 5 greater dragons....so help a lady out!

    And I can't get compassion sage to save myself....worst...luck...EVER!

    I will buy any items you have though because I do want a set of the quest items as well as the stone tiles.

    I'm happy that they are shard bound....hopefully it will make each shard dependent on themselves and not Atlantic :/

    I'm happy that they are shard bound....hopefully it will make each shard dependent on themselves and not Atlantic

    I think likewise and appreciate the Developers' decision to make them Shard Bound.
  • MissEMissE Posts: 727
    The fact they cant farm your shard to take them back to atlantic means they wont bother at all. 

    Seriously do you actually play this game popps or just spend your days on the forum? No one is gonna come to a low pop shard and do these quests just to have items to sell to the people on that shard.  Firstly they dont have vendors there, secondly if they are that intent to get  these items adn want to sell em for more money they are more likely gonna just stone skills on their account delete the char and chain the the thing on their home shard and given most play atlantic then that is where it will happen.  People are already saying they are deleting chars to do just that.

    I mean I can't believe all that stuff you just wrote.

    AS for the 'reward' and I use that term loosely.... does ANYONE ever put in any thought to items that are churned out for our supposed entertainment?   So I spent close to 6 hours doing the quest on origin today  as it isn't even LIVE on my shard yet, granted my char was only gm in skills but she could complete it but it took that long.

    After all that rigmarole I get a lump of rock with a humilty staff engraved on it.
    Whoopee. 

    Just IMAGINE what could of been.  Instead of this utterly useless item, imagine if by clicking on that 'rune' you could get 3 blue gem dots of the relevant virtue in your virtue gump, so ie three dots of sacrifice virtue or humility virtue etc.  Not on every char but the stone allows one char per day to collect 3 dots towards getting their Knight status in the relevant virtue depicted on the rune.  THEN IT WOULD OF BEEN USEFUL.  But no, we have another useless item to lockdown.  Another opportunity lost.



    Cheers MissE

    For more info about Angelwood Warehouse Events go to the A.W.E Forum
  • TimStTimSt Posts: 1,057
    Remember this is the first quest to use the new quest engine. The Black Gate is basically a big test of the new engine.  They are tweaking and fixing things as we find them. Deployment has had a few glitches.  Having deco pieces as the first reward limits the damage if someone finds an exploit.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,782
    Kyronix said:
    @ Merus - I appreciate the response!  Engaging in feedback in good faith helps us make better decisions for the future, so thank you for that.  It's easy to just dismiss everything with one or two sentences of dissatisfaction (or often times a wall of text!) which doesn't result in any meaningful feedback.  Unfortunately I think this is the trap most forums and exchanges have fallen into, so kudos to you for elevating the conversation!

    In your previous post you state, 

    "I would challenge the basic premise you relied on in your position.  Your position presumes that there is a substantial enough population on low population shards to entice players to transfer there to complete content in order to effect commerce.  Unfortunately, as someone who regularly plays a low population shard, this assumption is false."

    What I'm relying on is the principle that the only way to reverse the downward trend of population is to apply selective pressures to reverse that trend.  Let's say, for example, in this situation we hadn't put the restrictions in place on this content.  This results in a couple of predictable outcomes,

    • Players will intermittently congregate on lower population shards to avoid competition for completion resources while not contributing to the overall health of the community of that shard in service of obtaining a reward.
    • Those rewards are bulk transferred to Atlantic, devaluing the need to complete the content by those who play on Atlantic because there is an abundance of gold that can be traded in exchange of doing the content.  It's natural to always take the path of least resistance (gold vs time).

    Neither of these is desired outcomes.  It reduces the number of interactions between players on that shard (as they only need to farm the content, then transfer off).  It also continues to keep dead shards dead - they only serve as farming hubs for Atlantic, again not doing anything to better the health of the overall community.

    "If demand for those resources exist on low population shards, players will sell them there... even if those resources aren’t shard bound provided the price on the low shard is competitive with the price on other shards.  This provides the incentive to play lower population shards."

    I disagree this would be incentive enough to play on a lower pop shard.  You are relying on the assumption that an item can have greater value on a low population shard than on Atlantic.  I don't think this can ever be the case UNLESS the communities of those lower population shards reach a threshold of economic viability - a threshold we will never meet without selective pressures I talked about earlier OR the item has such rarity it has value everywhere.

    "By making the items shards bound it has the opposite effect.  There is so little demand that most players will not find it worthwhile to invest in playing there... thus further reducing the population of those shards."

    Again - this goes back to providing those pressures to increase demand.  Collectors are going to want to collect.  In this situation the only way to acquire a full set of the runes is for multiple characters to complete the content.  This has a couple positive outcomes, 
    • It encourages aspirational gameplay as a means to achieve a higher goal (I need multiple "good enough" characters to complete the quest objectives....what gameplay do I have to engage in as a means to achieve that goal?)
    • It encourages indirect cross shard trading, further building community through increased interactions.  (I have a Justice Rune on Lake Superior that I will trade you a Valor Rune on Chesapeake OR I will help you get Runes on Sonoma if you help me get Runes on Pacific).
    To conclude, I don't think anything is gained by once again isolating players further onto island of self-sufficiency.  Over the years pressures to promote character-character interactions have slowly been eroded in favor of one goal or another.  This quest is an experiment in seeing what happens when we dial those back.  I'm excited to see where the metrics validate.

    Again, big thanks for the response!


    "If demand for those resources exist on low population shards, players will sell them there... even if those resources aren’t shard bound provided the price on the low shard is competitive with the price on other shards.  This provides the incentive to play lower population shards."

    I disagree this would be incentive enough to play on a lower pop shard.  You are relying on the assumption that an item can have greater value on a low population shard than on Atlantic.  I don't think this can ever be the case UNLESS the communities of those lower population shards reach a threshold of economic viability - a threshold we will never meet without selective pressures I talked about earlier OR the item has such rarity it has value everywhere.
    I totally agree with @Kyronix there, to my opinion, players, on average, take items to Atlantic not because they cannot sell those items on the low population Shards, but because on Atlantic they often can sell them for higher prices as they would sell those items on those lower population Shards...

    And promoting this habit, is detrimental to those lower population Shards as they never get to be repopulated to the point to have a healthy and lively economy, because items keep being ferried to Atlantic....

  • Mene_DrachenfelsMene_Drachenfels Posts: 92
    edited September 23

    *rolleyes*

    I hope now that my translator for English is doing a good job here. What I’m saying now would sound pretty harsh in German!

    --------------

    As a long player and also nearby 22 years old veteran and player on a Low-Populated Shard (Drachenfels) to these game I can only say this:

    Might be hard and painful to someone what I say now – but everyone who have a similar long playtime to the game as I would say the same:

    We have these problems since the possibility to use Shard Transfer Shields – up to this moment the crazyness started to take everything to ATLANTIC for better and higher sells – and this crazyness went on up to nowadays!!!

    An economy is always determined by supply and demand. And a shard can’t build an economy if you almost take away everything valuable!

    The economy of all shards suddenly went down the Mississippi, when on the so-called lower populated shards everything was farmed, which was also useful for the players on these shards. That started with artifacts, went over from power scrolls to other useful things, also you got some through global events, veteran rewards or through Anniversary or Holiday-Gifts. We can make this list as long as we want.

    Quite harshly said: If you really want the economy to get back on track on these shards, these shields and the associated char transfer shall be forbidden! That and only that, in my humble opinion, has basically destroyed the Lower Populated Shards and their Economy! And this to my humle and maybe to simple way of thinking would stop these odd behaviour of circle rounding between the shards. Shardbound surely is a kind of solution – but honestly – we first allow shard transferring and than make items again shard bound? What inconsequense ist that?

    How stupid that is for these players, who then have to wait to find friends or trusted fellow players, who already have the age for the shields, to then turn for totally exaggerated and completely irrational pricing, which now only consists of 6 digit numbers and higher, to get the necessary things back to your own shard, where he might even originally ATLANTIK.

    If you then run a shop on a Lower Populated Shard, you are almost forced to adopt this extremely fatal pricing policy – a) in order to prevent the stuff from being dragged back to ATLANTIK and b) if it has to, then it's also closer to the ATLANTIK price.

    However, this also has the consequence that the potential new players or returnees are deterred from continuing to play the game because they simply can't or don't want to afford it - both in terms of price and time, because even in UO the gold has to be earned first. A Newbie does not start with Peerless Mini bosses and fights around with PvP-Rezzkillern at the Champs - a Newbie starts with a Mongbat and is happy if he has survived it. And the returnees fall out of all the pink clouds when they realize that so much has changed during their absence - and not always for the benefit of the players and the game.

    If a Lower Populated Shard hasn't been overly damaged yet and it still has a good number of players, hopefully the economy will recover and also make new players stay because there are shops again where they can find what they need for their gameplay. Thanks to the new Commissions vendors, this is possible again.

    Of course, I also need a home where I can leave all my stuff at some point, which accumulates in the game so. Decoration is nice and sometimes also useful - see Worker Stations. But mainly I as a player of this skill and item-based game also need gold, good armor parts and stats and powerscrolls as well as a few good and ambitious shop operators, who also offer me this at reasonable and quickly available prices.

    Just my two longer cents ;)

    Greetings Mene

    (Finally I could take this post - 1 hour fight with these forum here;)




    A little less ego-thinking, know-it-all and rumbling compared to others who aren't so "great" and the UO-life would be a whole corner easier

    (Ein bisschen weniger Ego-Denken, Besserwisserei und Rumprollerei anderen gegenüber die halt nicht so "toll sind" und das UO-Leben wäre ne ganze Ecke einfacher)







  • poppspopps Posts: 1,782
    TimSt said:
    Remember this is the first quest to use the new quest engine. The Black Gate is basically a big test of the new engine.  They are tweaking and fixing things as we find them. Deployment has had a few glitches.  Having deco pieces as the first reward limits the damage if someone finds an exploit.
    Spot on.
  • SethSeth Posts: 704
    edited September 23
    Need to be realistic.

    Low population really means lower demand for goods. You cannot even find daily necessity, so forget about deco. 

    All these theories are very idealistic.

    What is really needed is to amplify cross shard trading instead of limiting it. Allow us to trade cross shard via a Courier system, instead of having to send a character over. 

    The idea of forcing us to play in a low pop shard and selling to the already low pop there.... is a waste of time.

    You need to think about how to increase population instead of forcing whoever is left to fly all over the world to get a decor and sell only on that shard. Does that not sound weird? 
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • Mene_DrachenfelsMene_Drachenfels Posts: 92
    edited September 23
    Need to be realistic :
    All Humans are equal  > all players are equal ( yes some are more ;) ) ... we all have the same wishes - if you are on more populated shard or on on lower ;)  - there's no difference !

    A little less ego-thinking, know-it-all and rumbling compared to others who aren't so "great" and the UO-life would be a whole corner easier

    (Ein bisschen weniger Ego-Denken, Besserwisserei und Rumprollerei anderen gegenüber die halt nicht so "toll sind" und das UO-Leben wäre ne ganze Ecke einfacher)







  • SethSeth Posts: 704
    I can say for sure I won't fly to any other shard.

    I cannot place a house to put a vendor.

    I don't want to spend time find someone to negotiate a vendor spot, esp. if low pop...

    Even if I can sell, the local pop probably cannot afford much gold. So its not worth a trip there to move there just to make a small amount of gold out.

    Luckily, its only decor. So I will just do on one char for the experience or fun on my main shard. If the decor is like Tabard then fine, but pillow, or useless home decor maybe no. 


    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • SmootSmoot Posts: 290
    edited September 23
    i farmed the compassion sage today, from a vendor it took 2 seconds.  100 percent drop rate.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 610
    Smoot said:
    i farmed the compassion sage today, from a vendor it took 2 seconds.  100 percent drop rate.


    2m apiece on Atlantic vendors, and plenty of them, I'll be over there to help their supply soon :)

    On Europa, not been any on VS for a long time, but it's also really easy to farm them, or we all have them anyway.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 610
    MissE said:
    The fact they cant farm your shard to take them back to atlantic means they wont bother at all. 

    Seriously do you actually play this game popps or just spend your days on the forum? No one is gonna come to a low pop shard and do these quests just to have items to sell to the people on that shard.  Firstly they dont have vendors there, secondly if they are that intent to get  these items adn want to sell em for more money they are more likely gonna just stone skills on their account delete the char and chain the the thing on their home shard and given most play atlantic then that is where it will happen.  People are already saying they are deleting chars to do just that.

    I mean I can't believe all that stuff you just wrote.

    AS for the 'reward' and I use that term loosely.... does ANYONE ever put in any thought to items that are churned out for our supposed entertainment?   So I spent close to 6 hours doing the quest on origin today  as it isn't even LIVE on my shard yet, granted my char was only gm in skills but she could complete it but it took that long.

    After all that rigmarole I get a lump of rock with a humilty staff engraved on it.
    Whoopee. 

    Just IMAGINE what could of been.  Instead of this utterly useless item, imagine if by clicking on that 'rune' you could get 3 blue gem dots of the relevant virtue in your virtue gump, so ie three dots of sacrifice virtue or humility virtue etc.  Not on every char but the stone allows one char per day to collect 3 dots towards getting their Knight status in the relevant virtue depicted on the rune.  THEN IT WOULD OF BEEN USEFUL.  But no, we have another useless item to lockdown.  Another opportunity lost.




    I do like your posts :)

    I'm on the side of the fence that thinks Shard Bound for these items is a good thing. I'll do the quests on Europa, get as many as I can, maybe collect the set. I may then pop to Atlantic, and farm Compassion Sage, or do 1 just to sell. So I think I'm in disagreement with you on this point. I think it's a good thing, for a shard to have to get it's own stuff, and stand or fall on their own work-rate.

    I do completely understand your 2nd point, I'm not a Deco person myself, and I have skipped much of the last couple of years content due to the fact the rewards just have no practical use to me. Having said that, I've taken part in some, because the event questline is interesting enough. I do like the latest artwork on a lot of their recent rewards, but I also agree your suggestion would take it to another level.

  • SethSeth Posts: 704
    Cookie said:
    MissE said:
    The fact they cant farm your shard to take them back to atlantic means they wont bother at all. 

    Seriously do you actually play this game popps or just spend your days on the forum? No one is gonna come to a low pop shard and do these quests just to have items to sell to the people on that shard.  Firstly they dont have vendors there, secondly if they are that intent to get  these items adn want to sell em for more money they are more likely gonna just stone skills on their account delete the char and chain the the thing on their home shard and given most play atlantic then that is where it will happen.  People are already saying they are deleting chars to do just that.

    I mean I can't believe all that stuff you just wrote.

    AS for the 'reward' and I use that term loosely.... does ANYONE ever put in any thought to items that are churned out for our supposed entertainment?   So I spent close to 6 hours doing the quest on origin today  as it isn't even LIVE on my shard yet, granted my char was only gm in skills but she could complete it but it took that long.

    After all that rigmarole I get a lump of rock with a humilty staff engraved on it.
    Whoopee. 

    Just IMAGINE what could of been.  Instead of this utterly useless item, imagine if by clicking on that 'rune' you could get 3 blue gem dots of the relevant virtue in your virtue gump, so ie three dots of sacrifice virtue or humility virtue etc.  Not on every char but the stone allows one char per day to collect 3 dots towards getting their Knight status in the relevant virtue depicted on the rune.  THEN IT WOULD OF BEEN USEFUL.  But no, we have another useless item to lockdown.  Another opportunity lost.




    I do like your posts :)

    I'm on the side of the fence that thinks Shard Bound for these items is a good thing. I'll do the quests on Europa, get as many as I can, maybe collect the set. I may then pop to Atlantic, and farm Compassion Sage, or do 1 just to sell. So I think I'm in disagreement with you on this point. I think it's a good thing, for a shard to have to get it's own stuff, and stand or fall on their own work-rate.

    I do completely understand your 2nd point, I'm not a Deco person myself, and I have skipped much of the last couple of years content due to the fact the rewards just have no practical use to me. Having said that, I've taken part in some, because the event questline is interesting enough. I do like the latest artwork on a lot of their recent rewards, but I also agree your suggestion would take it to another level.


    It is good to have a noble feeling how you think a shard "should have".

    Do you really enjoy doing what you just said you would do, or is it just to support the hypothesis of the Dev?

    Do you intend to open a new account and place a public house to display these rewards in these low pop shards?

    I think everyone enjoy the game in their own way. We have to agree to disagree at some point.
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 194
    edited September 23
    @Kyronix - While I see your theory, I do not agree with it for two reason that I will list below.

    You previously said:

    I disagree this would be incentive enough to play on a lower pop shard.  You are relying on the assumption that an item can have greater value on a low population shard than on Atlantic.  I don't think this can ever be the case UNLESS the communities of those lower population shards reach a threshold of economic viability - a threshold we will never meet without selective pressures I talked about earlier OR the item has such rarity it has value everywhere.

    • This statement (bolded) is just outright false as I have been to several different shards to play events etc and sometimes I will just do a random search to see if I'm able to get something I need cheaper. The results are that most of what I'm looking for is either not available or higher priced (examples: Legendary Fishing Scroll (many legendary powerscrolls in general)/Imbuing Ingredients/ Compassion Sage). This honestly isn't surprising given that there is no price competition on low population shards so this actually leads to price gouging and it's actually better off to buy on ATL. I know this for a fact when I had a set of archmage cuffs on my vendor at the lowest price at the time only to log in the next day to see them still on the vendor and 3 other sets marked below mine (on ATL shard).
    • People who are established on a high population shard like ATL are very unlikley to set up shop on a low pop shard to make sales because as another poster outlined; I can't have a house there to place a vendor which means I need to find someone that does have one just to sell something I have; that's more trouble than it's worth just to do content on a different shard. An example of this: I have jumped around to various shards to do the treasures of events over the past couple months and I've looked to buy some pieces I am looking for. On Origin right now if you look of "of orcish kin" you will get zero results. I have a few extra random pieces but I don't have a vendor to sell anything nor the demand from what it looks. 
    I personally will only be doing this on my home shard where I can actually lock down the decoration (or sell it) because I have no use for it on some low population shard where it either just sits in my bank box forever or have to spam in gen chat forever to get someone to buy it. So if anything applying all of the restrictions, at least in my case, had the exact opposite effect that you might have been hoping for. 

    That said, I do think that applying all 3 things (Shard Bound / 1x char / random) was a little extreme and 1 should be removed which would still promote trading / market place. I'd say the easiest for everyone to get a "win" would be to allow people to choose their reward so that at least if I'm looking for a particular stone and say "paying/trading for X" we could at least have a few people respond.
  • LarisaLarisa Posts: 351
    I would hope that having these quest/event items shard bound would encourage people to populate other shards and not just flock to Atlantic. Being on a less populated shard, I can say, at least for Origin, there are people there always willing to help. I think it's up to each shard to promote their shard, use forums, social media...get people excited and make them want to join your shard. Build a new player center...think of ways to make people want to be there and STAY there. I know that has always been my goal for Origin and I don't do enough but we are working on it.



  • jelinidasjelinidas Posts: 272
    I have toons on many shards. I have houses on few. I will not ever do this event on a low pop shard that I have no housing. One per toon is only hurting the casual player that runs one account. Shard bound is bad. Once per toon is bad. Random rewards is bad. Do the devs actually play the game they work on?
  • TimTim Posts: 614

    Just IMAGINE what could of been.  Instead of this utterly useless item, imagine if by clicking on that 'rune' you could get 3 blue gem dots of the relevant virtue in your virtue gump, so ie three dots of sacrifice virtue or humility virtue etc.  Not on every char but the stone allows one char per day to collect 3 dots towards getting their Knight status in the relevant virtue depicted on the rune.  THEN IT WOULD OF BEEN USEFUL.  But no, we have another useless item to lockdown.  Another opportunity lost. 
    My point exactly. That sounds nice and I would probably use them if available. But how much of the game would be made totally redundant and never done again by anyone.

    Useful items must be thought out very carefully and should only be introduced if a real need for it is seen. Do we really need another peace of armor that makes all the stuff we have now obsolete?

    Not to pound on anyone but the basic disagreement on this is do you do the content because you enjoy it or for the reward. I'll do the content because it looks interesting and fun. The reason I play a game.  The prize at the end is just to keep score.
  • SethSeth Posts: 704
    edited September 23
    Larisa said:
    I would hope that having these quest/event items shard bound would encourage people to populate other shards and not just flock to Atlantic. Being on a less populated shard, I can say, at least for Origin, there are people there always willing to help. I think it's up to each shard to promote their shard, use forums, social media...get people excited and make them want to join your shard. Build a new player center...think of ways to make people want to be there and STAY there. I know that has always been my goal for Origin and I don't do enough but we are working on it.



    If its not for guild or group hunt, one of the main reasons is because Atlantic has the most vendors.

    This is why I say to expand cross-shard trading - make it easier to trade between shards, so no one would feel left out. Any new player can purchase a spellbook and or mastery book from Atlantic and not wait 14 years. My goodness.

    And once you open up cross shard = ECONOMICS..

    Supply goes up, price goes down.

    The purpose is to take care of new players, draw in new players.

    The purpose is not to make a dying pool of vet players play on every shard to boost the population.
    You and Several Others like this wishlist:
    Making wearable artifacts shard bound is the worst idea in entire UO history.


  • PawainPawain Posts: 3,171
    edited September 23
    @popps you said:
    My opinion is, that players, for the most part, end up farming low population Shards for items to then take them to Atlantic not because they cannot sell them on those low population Shards,

    That completly contradicts your argument . We can't sell these items on our home shard. And if I am short a piece, the price on my shard is higher than Atlantic prices. There are green armor pieces on vendors for 50M. Your statement proves that we need a larger supply market like Atlantic to support the need of smaller shards.

    Y'all don't understand that low population shards have few things to sell because players get items and put them in a chest and the items never see the market .

    I bring more items from Atlantic to LS than all others the other way many weeks.

    Take for example rubble. All the pieces from LS are in someone's house. If we didn't have the ability to get Rubble from Atlantic nobody on LS would be able to add new Rubble to their houses. Same goes for any item it has a finite quantity.

    Not being able to transfer finite items from a Shard is only going to hurt the small shards because there's not enough people finding the quantity needed future use. They find enough for themselves and stop.  Players who miss the event are out of luck since they can't get the item anymore and none are for sale at a reasonable price.

    There is a reason that the Walmarts in RL have made the local stores go out of business. Walmart does not have to rely on regional items. Because small regions do not make enough goods to supply themselves at a low cost.
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,782
    keven2002 said:
    @ Kyronix - While I see your theory, I do not agree with it for two reason that I will list below.

    You previously said:

    I disagree this would be incentive enough to play on a lower pop shard.  You are relying on the assumption that an item can have greater value on a low population shard than on Atlantic.  I don't think this can ever be the case UNLESS the communities of those lower population shards reach a threshold of economic viability - a threshold we will never meet without selective pressures I talked about earlier OR the item has such rarity it has value everywhere.

    • This statement (bolded) is just outright false as I have been to several different shards to play events etc and sometimes I will just do a random search to see if I'm able to get something I need cheaper. The results are that most of what I'm looking for is either not available or higher priced (examples: Legendary Fishing Scroll (many legendary powerscrolls in general)/Imbuing Ingredients/ Compassion Sage). This honestly isn't surprising given that there is no price competition on low population shards so this actually leads to price gouging and it's actually better off to buy on ATL. I know this for a fact when I had a set of archmage cuffs on my vendor at the lowest price at the time only to log in the next day to see them still on the vendor and 3 other sets marked below mine (on ATL shard).
    • People who are established on a high population shard like ATL are very unlikley to set up shop on a low pop shard to make sales because as another poster outlined; I can't have a house there to place a vendor which means I need to find someone that does have one just to sell something I have; that's more trouble than it's worth just to do content on a different shard. An example of this: I have jumped around to various shards to do the treasures of events over the past couple months and I've looked to buy some pieces I am looking for. On Origin right now if you look of "of orcish kin" you will get zero results. I have a few extra random pieces but I don't have a vendor to sell anything nor the demand from what it looks. 
    I personally will only be doing this on my home shard where I can actually lock down the decoration (or sell it) because I have no use for it on some low population shard where it either just sits in my bank box forever or have to spam in gen chat forever to get someone to buy it. So if anything applying all of the restrictions, at least in my case, had the exact opposite effect that you might have been hoping for. 

    That said, I do think that applying all 3 things (Shard Bound / 1x char / random) was a little extreme and 1 should be removed which would still promote trading / market place. I'd say the easiest for everyone to get a "win" would be to allow people to choose their reward so that at least if I'm looking for a particular stone and say "paying/trading for X" we could at least have a few people respond.
    Oddily enough, my experience is rather different....

    I often find on Low population Shard that items, if they are listed on Vendors because they indeed are more scarce and hard to be found as compared to Atlantic, are cheaper, not more expensive....

    And, I guess, for good reasons.... 

    On a low population Shard, as compared to Atlantic, it is harder to sell items, it takes more time since there is less buyers as there are on Atlantic and, furthermore, usually players, on average, on lower populated Shards, are less wealthy as compared to average players on Atlantic...

    Hence, on a low population Shard, in order to sell a given item it is necessary to price them cheaper as compared to Atlantic.

    And, infact, it is not unusual that players hop to low population Shards, brownse the Vendors, and buy items cheaper to then resell them higher on Atlantic....

    So, I am afraid that I need to disagree with your point of view keven2002 , and I need to say that I agree with @Kyronix ....
  • jelinidasjelinidas Posts: 272
    @popps

    Give us an example of a low population shard you play and a couple of items you found less expensive. I find quite the opposite.
  • JepethJepeth Posts: 125
    For those of us without shard shields anything that keeps wealth and items on our shards is very welcome.
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