How does Throwing+Parry+Using a Shield work?

CookieCookie Posts: 612
edited July 21 in General Discussions

I'm after the exact calculation of what happens here, does anyone know?

The best I've found is from UOGuide;

"Shield Penalties

All the throwing weapons are one-handed in nature which allows the thrower to equip a shield or other item in their off hand. The player will suffer a defense and hit chance penalty for using a shield while using a throwing weapon. These penalties can be offset by investing skill points into Parrying. Player’s with no skill points in the Parry Skill will now have a minimum chance to hit. "

But this is too vague.

What is the exact DCI and HCI penalty, and exactly how much can the Parry skill mitigate the penalty?

So if you had 120 Throwing + 120 Parry + 45% HCI + 45% DCI and equipped a shield, how much would your HCI and DCI be affected?

Does anyone have a formula?


Comments

  • MissEMissE Posts: 728
    Sorry I can't help you with  your query as I don't have parry or know the forumula.  However I would also like to know the above.  I would also like to know why it is not a penalty but pretty much a destruction of the whole skill if you equip a shield.  @Kyronix

    From my experimenting the hit chance penalty using a shield makes the throwing skill pretty much UNUSABLE.  

    I have tried using a shield while throwing and 'hit' the target with 110 throwing about 1 in every 20 attempts when a shield is equipped (if that), yet hit it 99% of the time when it isn't.  With 45/45 HCI on my character. 

    I am not sure why the hell it is set up like this but don't even bother equipping a shield unless you also have parry (can't say I have seen if that works as I don't have parry on my thrower).

    It makes it so you have to have parry (again assuming it works) on all your throwers which severely impacts what other skills you can have if you want to equip a shield.  I guess it is because it is a ranged skill so unlike a warrior who gets NO penalty for equipping a shield with a one handed weapon gargoyles with throwing are severely penalized.  As my thrower is mainly a spellcaster with the throwing as an additional attack I really would like to equip a shield for the defensive properties.  I don't mind if there is a small penalty but making it so it pretty much negates the whole skill I think  is a bit much.

    My thrower template is:

    Throwing
    Mysticism
    Focus
    Spellweaving
    Tactics
    Hide
    Stealth
    Chivalry

    I do NOT have room for parry but the penalty is so severe it is STUPID. 


    Cheers MissE

    For more info about Angelwood Warehouse Events go to the A.W.E Forum
  • poppspopps Posts: 1,794
    MissE said:
    Sorry I can't help you with  your query as I don't have parry or know the forumula.  However I would also like to know the above.  I would also like to know why it is not a penalty but pretty much a destruction of the whole skill if you equip a shield.  @ Kyronix

    From my experimenting the hit chance penalty using a shield makes the throwing skill pretty much UNUSABLE.  

    I have tried using a shield while throwing and 'hit' the target with 110 throwing about 1 in every 20 attempts when a shield is equipped (if that), yet hit it 99% of the time when it isn't.  With 45/45 HCI on my character. 

    I am not sure why the hell it is set up like this but don't even bother equipping a shield unless you also have parry (can't say I have seen if that works as I don't have parry on my thrower).

    It makes it so you have to have parry (again assuming it works) on all your throwers which severely impacts what other skills you can have if you want to equip a shield.  I guess it is because it is a ranged skill so unlike a warrior who gets NO penalty for equipping a shield with a one handed weapon gargoyles with throwing are severely penalized.  As my thrower is mainly a spellcaster with the throwing as an additional attack I really would like to equip a shield for the defensive properties.  I don't mind if there is a small penalty but making it so it pretty much negates the whole skill I think  is a bit much.

    My thrower template is:

    Throwing
    Mysticism
    Focus
    Spellweaving
    Tactics
    Hide
    Stealth
    Chivalry

    I do NOT have room for parry but the penalty is so severe it is STUPID. 


    I imagine, that this penalty was put in to "somewhat" balance out Throwing, a one-handed skill, with Archery, a two-handed skills (aside from the Balanced property but which does have limitations too...).

    The problem is, though, that Throwing already has a Ranged Penalty whereas damage is reduced "unless" one throws at X "exact" tiles from the target.

    Of course, this is only a theoretical thing since, in the reality of a fight where the target moves, there is surrounding spawn that forces the Thrower to move etc. etc., it is almost impossible to be able to keep always an exact distance from a target to maximize one's own Throwing damage...

    The bottom line is, that ALREADY Throwing is at a gross disadvantage as compared to Archery, to my opinion, so, this Shield penalty just makes it worse....

    I think it should be toned down and quite a bit.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 612

    The issue for me, is that dexxers are so strong in PvP, that you absolutely need Parry.

    You just get destroyed without it, this therefore takes Throwers straight out of PvP.

    But like Misse says, my experience of equipping a shield, just destroys the template.

  • Max_BlackoakMax_Blackoak Posts: 504
    I don't have a formula for this but I sometimes run a chiv parry thrower template with healing in PvP and haven't seen any hit chance penalty at all as long as I keep 120 parry on it. It's actually a nice template with great survivability. If you get dismounted, simply dismount everyone around you with 1.25 swings ;-)
    Without parry the hit chance gets so low I can't even hit ratmen with 120 throwing.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited July 22
    Cookie, 

    You could just go on test centre and after you parry something, the devs helpfully added the "last parry chance" to your weapon & shield. And do this for various parry %ages. Perhaps you could publish your results and we'll then be able to reverse engineer the formula. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • Max_BlackoakMax_Blackoak Posts: 504
    Mervyn.

    Parry chance has nothing to do with hit chance...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 612
    I don't have a formula for this but I sometimes run a chiv parry thrower template with healing in PvP and haven't seen any hit chance penalty at all as long as I keep 120 parry on it. It's actually a nice template with great survivability. If you get dismounted, simply dismount everyone around you with 1.25 swings ;-)
    Without parry the hit chance gets so low I can't even hit ratmen with 120 throwing.


    That's helpful Max, and what I was hoping, but wasn't sure.


  • CookieCookie Posts: 612
    Mervyn said:
    Cookie, 

    You could just go on test centre and after you parry something, the devs helpfully added the "last parry chance" to your weapon & shield. And do this for various parry %ages. Perhaps you could publish your results and we'll then be able to reverse engineer the formula. 


    I may have to also, I'm not really a test centre sort of person, I just like playing the game.

    But yes, what you said is something I had thought of, and it could be worked backwards, I was hoping someone else had done the legwork :)

  • CookieCookie Posts: 612
    edited July 22
    Mervyn.

    Parry chance has nothing to do with hit chance...


    Hey Max,

    The guide states that both HCI and DCI take a penalty, so it would allow you to look at the DCI side of the equation, and compare it to your normal Parry DCI without Throwing, to work out the DCI penalty.

    Maybe. :)

  • This again?

    10% at 120 parry.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Mervyn.

    Parry chance has nothing to do with hit chance...
    Sorry, I didn’t read the post properly.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • NorryNorry Posts: 271
    I know without parry, it would put you at negative to hit with a shield, and they bumped it to 5%.
    Hci and dci stack on that
  • Max_BlackoakMax_Blackoak Posts: 504
    The official wiki ( https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/throwing/ ) has this to say about the hci+dci penalties: "These penalties can be offset by investing skill points into Parrying."

    The word offset suggests that by investing enough skillpoints (i.e. 120) in parrying you won't suffer any penalties.
    I never felt I was getting hit more or hitting less with my chiv-parry-thrower so I would assume this is correct. I have to admit I never ran an actual test though.



  • CookieCookie Posts: 612

    Yep, thanks for the responses guys, it has helped a lot.

    It's put my mind at rest on something I'm creating :)

  • Cookie said:

    Yep, thanks for the responses guys, it has helped a lot.

    It's put my mind at rest on something I'm creating :)

    So where did you land on this template? 

    I'm actually creating a Gargoyle imbuer, but putting throwing and mysticism on him so he can explore and defend himself.  I'm starting to collect a bunch of shields and hand weapons, but wondering if I should find space for Parry....or just stick to the main function as an imbuer.
    • Focus (for now, but will set this to go down as my imbuing goes up)
    • Imubuing 
    • Mysticism (only needs Imbuing or Focus)
    • Throwing
    • Tactics
    • Chivalry
    • Hiding
  • CookieCookie Posts: 612
    edited November 19

    Hi @apogipinoy ,

    It worked well enough I subbed the 2 endless journey accounts that I created for my 2 boys.

    I trained them up fully through the Deceit event, them often joining me on my support Garg Parry Mystic Mage, and by the end of it, the 3 of us were highly effective in Deceit, or, myself solo on either of their Parry Throwers was a good template. {I managed to farm the shoulders and boots for them, and 2 books for myself - so I considered it a success, even though it was very hard work, as I was not using luck, fortune potion, or the best templates).

    Basically, the Parry at 120, made the Throwing hit chance feel much better, playable even, that was what I was worried about. I don't know facts and figures, but for me, it's about how it feels playing it, and in that scenario it worked well. I think you need Parry at 120, to mitigate the Throwing penalty as much as possible. Their templates are 120 Throwing, Tactics, Anatomy, Healing, Resist, Parry.

    I have not created maxed out PvP gear with Hit Lower Defence weapons/211 stam/55% SSI etc, or trained them for that, to see how that works out yet.

    I've also not taken them through the full games PvM content - but in theory, first signs are good.

    It felt quite tanky as a template, it was interesting, shorter range faster weapons like boomerang felt ok, because you didn't mind being hit so much, you are playing something in between a ranged character, and a full out melee character, you are like melee with a bit of range which is interesting.

    The negative re Throwers, is they have so little weapon choice compared to say swords or archers. You also cannot enhance their weapons with anything useful like you can with say wooden bows or bokuto's.

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