Is it "legal" to buy gametime codes from other players for gold?

My understanding is that it's not. But the question came up on the "other" forum. With another poster saying it was fine to do so.@Mesanna @Bleak @Kyronix If possible please respond with a quick no, or yes, so this can be answered decisively. Thanks!
If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
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Comments

  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    Why wouldn't it be.  So you are saying you can buy everything but gametime codes for gold from other players.  Understand that there is no way to ensure that the code you are buying hasn't already been used and UO will not assist you in retrieving your gold, it is a BIG buyer beware.
  • Own gold, own risk. Don't ask broadsword if something is wrong.

  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    Own gold, own risk. Don't ask broadsword if something is wrong.

    Well, I, and others,  would like to know the answer. @Mesanna @Kyronix @Bleak ;
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • Garth_GreyGarth_Grey Posts: 1,175
    I suppose technically you could say, you nor I actually own the game content, EA/BS does. So technically we wouldn't be allowed legally to sell it to someone else because we don't actually own it. However if I decide one day to enact a transfer to another player, I can give them a large amount of gold and click the box, and they can do the same, transferring my gold to them. What they then do from there is anyone's guess. My guess is that this thread will most definitely get locked though. 
    You and Several Others like this.


    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    Why should it get locked? It's a valid question. 
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • Garth_GreyGarth_Grey Posts: 1,175
    edited February 2020
    Because the simple conversation of it is typically frowned upon. As someone has said, you won't confirm if the code is good until you yourself try to claim it. If it should fail, who are you going to hold accountable ? Plenty of people have done and still do this. It was a popular method for getting quick gold on Siege especially, we just never asked or expected BS to get involved in the transaction. :P
    You and Several Others like this.


    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,819Moderator
    The official stance on this, and similar problems, can be found in the newsletters. I will quote:

    THIRD PARTY RESELLERS
    We would also like to reiterate that the Origin store is the only guaranteed provider of codes for Ultima Online. The validity of a code purchased from a third-party seller (be it a friend, in-game acquaintance, or recommended site) cannot be guaranteed. Furthermore, any codes we find to have be fraudulently obtained will be disabled and an account that applies any of these codes will have that code removed from said account. This can result in the loss of game time, character slots, expansion access, Sovereigns (and the items purchased with them), in-game items and more. Please be advised that we cannot assist with any issues stemming from codes purchased via non-Origin means; you will be required to contact the vendor from which you purchased the code for further assistance.




  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    Mariah said:
    The official stance on this, and similar problems, can be found in the newsletters. I will quote:

    THIRD PARTY RESELLERS
    We would also like to reiterate that the Origin store is the only guaranteed provider of codes for Ultima Online. The validity of a code purchased from a third-party seller (be it a friend, in-game acquaintance, or recommended site) cannot be guaranteed. Furthermore, any codes we find to have be fraudulently obtained will be disabled and an account that applies any of these codes will have that code removed from said account. This can result in the loss of game time, character slots, expansion access, Sovereigns (and the items purchased with them), in-game items and more. Please be advised that we cannot assist with any issues stemming from codes purchased via non-Origin means; you will be required to contact the vendor from which you purchased the code for further assistance.




    I read that as well, my question concerns the difference between "guaranteed" and "allowed". A simple no, or yes, would be sufficient to remove any doubt. :)
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,617
    edited February 2020
    Regionalization.....

    Sometimes, in some countries, the exact same digital products or codes are sold for a significantly different pricing because of regionalization, different cost of living and all that.

    Usually, this is avoided by Publishers, to my understanding, by blocking out of that Country ISPs to be able to purchase those Digital products/codes at those reduced pricing from those Countries who have them cheaper.

    Same thing with Promotions and discounted sales which, at times, might be available for a given country but not for another.

    And masking one's own IP address, to my understanding, to bypass those regionalization restrictions, I seem to understand is something not permitted.

    Having someone else buy it in the Country that has them cheaper, and then sell it for in game currency, likely at a discounted price since the original real currency cost was reduced to start with, because of that regionalization, basically I guess, might hurt sales in those countries that have higher prices for those same digital products/codes....

    As an example, and I am just making up numbers for the sake of the discussion, if a monthly subscription code for playing a game online costs 10 in country A, but only 5 in country B (of that same one currency of course), a player living in country A would be better off not buying the code in their own country at 10 but buy it in game for in-game currency from someone who purchased it in their own country at 5 since the in-game currency charged, will be, chances are, I would imagine, reflecting an initial cost of 5, not of 10....

    I imagine, then, that buying these things/codes in game might, perhaps, hurt the overall world sales for the Publisher....

    Am I wrong in my thinking ?
  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    Any Devs care to chime in with a yes or no? @Mesanna @Bleak @Kyronix 
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • PawainPawain Posts: 5,089
    The police or FBI will not be called.  Therefore it is not illegal.

    They do not recommend you do that. And they will have no clue if you did do that.

    Prettly clear.
  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    As clear as mud. :) I guess a better way to put it would be, IS IT A VIOLATION OF THE ToS? 

    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • Just like multi clienting, it is allowed, but not supported.

    And if you buy a code that doesn't work, don't page about it, there will be no recourse for you.
    Dunno how much simpler it can get
  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    It doesn't say it is allowed, and the phrase "Furthermore, any codes we find to have be fraudulently obtained..." Hence the question!
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • IvenorIvenor Posts: 1,035
    edited February 2020
    popps said:
    Regionalization.....

    (...)

    And masking one's own IP address, to my understanding, to bypass those regionalization restrictions, I seem to understand is something not permitted.

    (...)
    Not "permitted" by whom?

    Leaving aside the impact on the specif UO case for one sec, "R." is a really controversial question: frequently more an example of bulling toward customers than any other thing, incessantly fought by EFF and others such Orgs, strictly related to the equally controversial "DMCA Overeach", "Buy vs Licence" & "Secondary Market Intervention Abuse" issues.

    Returning to UO, The reply of @Mariah is, IMO, the most correct one to the question of the OP, and the only one that can be formally asked for. BS is in NO obligation at all to provide support for UO Codes that haven't been bought ***directly*** on ***a*** Origin Store.

    If, instead, BS (or EA) have the legal "right" to compel Custromers to buy from his "Local" Origin Store and can refuse support for a legit Code bought from any Origin Store of Buyer choice, is a "High Fees(1) Lawyers" question... :D

    (1) Fees as high as, at least, 10 times the total UO entire biz value... B)




  • MordredMordred Posts: 102
    edited February 2020
    it is a matter of who you TRUST or buy from!
    Some of the sellers that I know provide original Order # receipt of purchase (original from origin.com) and code is delivered from origin.

    as far as everyone knows , you cant say or promote on Gen chat that kind of thing, because than you will be into the solicitation ban   hahah.

    you can buy sovereigns , you can buy tokens, you can buy a lot of things and resell ingame for gold, there is nothing wrong with that and the money are going into UO's pocket or Origin. as long as the code is not from a Russian site, I dont see any problem with.


  • This begs the question, just charge the same rate globally, to the lowest common denominator. 


  • poppspopps Posts: 2,617
    monkgamer said:
    This begs the question, just charge the same rate globally, to the lowest common denominator. 


    The problem with that, is that cost of living across the Countries of the planet can really vary greatly... if it was to be charged to the lowest common denominator (i.e. weighted on the country that has a cost of living that could afford only a very low charging), then such a cost would be way too low for those Countries who, instead, have a higher cost of living and, thus, higher salaries/income.

    Furthermore, if the seller is based in a higher income Country, if all of their World Wide sales were to be based on the lowest common denominator, they might then not be able to get by with the taxes/management costs which they have to endure in that higher income Country (which has higher salaries, office space costs etc. etc.).

    Having Customers dodge Regionalization might at times become quite an issue to the accounting of a Company selling those items, if it happens too often, I would need to imagine.

    This sometimes also happens with physical goods which are purchased by resellers in a Country where they are cheaper and then, through various channels, taken to Countries where they are sold at a higher price and often, this way, the reseller can still price the goods cheaper even if including the various shipping costs and middlemen as compared to those same goods sold in that higher cost of living Country.

    It should be also noted, at least to my opinion, that this moving around of goods likely has a bad  side effect of contributing to Global Warming, since the shipping across the Planet of all these goods I need to imagine has an impact because of the CO2 emitted for the transportation of all of such goods.....
  • MargeMarge Posts: 507
    LOL!  :D Leave it to popps to bring Global Warming into this thread.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,617
    Marge said:
    LOL!  :D Leave it to popps to bring Global Warming into this thread.
    Well, we only got this one Planet to live on.... if we totally trash and screw it, it is not like we can go somewhere else.....
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,819Moderator
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. I can't speak for current situations, but I am aware that in the past some codes were removed from players' accounts because they had been bought with fake, or stolen, credit cards.  This information was made public at the time, and I'm sure there are a few players with memories as long as mine who can confirm that.
    You can do it, but it's at your own risk.
  • IvenorIvenor Posts: 1,035
    edited February 2020

    popps said:
    monkgamer said:
    This begs the question, just charge the same rate globally, to the lowest common denominator. 


    (...)

    1) Having Customers dodge Regionalization might at times become quite an issue to the accounting of a Company selling those items, if it happens too often, I would need to imagine.

    2) This sometimes also happens with physical goods which are purchased by resellers in a Country where they are cheaper and then, through various channels, taken to Countries where they are sold at a higher price and often, this way, the reseller can still price the goods cheaper even if including the various shipping costs and middlemen as compared to those same goods sold in that higher cost of living Country.

    3) It should be also noted, at least to my opinion, that this moving around of goods likely has a bad  side effect of contributing to Global Warming, since the shipping across the Planet of all these goods I need to imagine has an impact because of the CO2 emitted for the transportation of all of such goods.....

    I don't want to be warned by the Mods for derailing the Thread, but, speaking geneally and not about UO in particular and underlining that this is not a personal attack to you but only a discussion for the pleasure of confronting different PoVs:

    1) sorry, but my heart bleeds not for the Bottom Line of Corporations that use far worse means (e.g.: exploiting cheap labour in some part of the World) to produce the same Goods that  sell with obscene margins in other parts, plus lobby Governments to damange the Consumers Fair Use Rights with Private Protetionistics Laws (e.g.: the part of the DMCA that makes a crime to "circumvent" the aforementioned Regionalization protection codes);

    2) beside the fact that this is exactly what happens in UO with ATL vs any other Shard, so what? Freedom of Commerce is good only for Corporations and not for Customers? Again, I think not;

    3) about 70% (if you wish I can search for the data source) of industrial pollution is made by producing tout court some Goods, 15% by moving them around the World for distribution & Sales and only 15% by disposing of the broken, obsolete Goods (the last 15% is simply the most visible for many of us, and so the most targeted by whom want to make a (lot of) quick buck(s) with environmental "Virtue Signaling"). This means that when some Goods have already been produced, the added impact of some Customers moving a small part them again is negligible. And all this beside the fact that we are speaking here of digital Goods... :)
    popps said:
    Marge said:
    LOL!  :D Leave it to popps to bring Global Warming into this thread.
    Well, we only got this one Planet to live on.... if we totally trash and screw it, it is not like we can go somewhere else.....

    :o U sure??? *He launches UO Client*... :D ;)

  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,819Moderator
    Back on topic please.
  • IvenorIvenor Posts: 1,035
    edited February 2020
    Mariah said:
    Back on topic please.

    OK, I've been (informally) Warned!

    My bad, apologies... :)
  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    Mariah said:
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. I can't speak for current situations, but I am aware that in the past some codes were removed from players' accounts because they had been bought with fake, or stolen, credit cards.  This information was made public at the time, and I'm sure there are a few players with memories as long as mine who can confirm that.
    You can do it, but it's at your own risk.
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. Says who? Is this your opinion, or fact? This is where the  I would prefer a DEV to answer the question please. A simple yes , or no, will take about 2 seconds, and will put an end to the question. 
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • There was a supreme court case that allowed a person to buy school books form a different country and sell them cheaper here in the states, of course the publisher didn't like that so claim all the usual copyright etc , so legally its been tested and legal to do such a thing.

    Digital goods may be different of course, but I don't think anyone is keen on testing that expensive question.

    In the end though, BS and EA can ban who they want for whatever reason they want, so whether its allowed in game seems to be as long as it snot obtained first in a bad fashion such as code theft or bute force etc.




  • PawainPawain Posts: 5,089
    KHAN said:
    Mariah said:
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. I can't speak for current situations, but I am aware that in the past some codes were removed from players' accounts because they had been bought with fake, or stolen, credit cards.  This information was made public at the time, and I'm sure there are a few players with memories as long as mine who can confirm that.
    You can do it, but it's at your own risk.
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. Says who? Is this your opinion, or fact? This is where the  I would prefer a DEV to answer the question please. A simple yes , or no, will take about 2 seconds, and will put an end to the question. 
    You trying to say that I cant buy a Lasher from the store and sell it for UO Gold?   :D
  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    edited February 2020
    Pawain said:
    KHAN said:
    Mariah said:
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. I can't speak for current situations, but I am aware that in the past some codes were removed from players' accounts because they had been bought with fake, or stolen, credit cards.  This information was made public at the time, and I'm sure there are a few players with memories as long as mine who can confirm that.
    You can do it, but it's at your own risk.
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. Says who? Is this your opinion, or fact? This is where the  I would prefer a DEV to answer the question please. A simple yes , or no, will take about 2 seconds, and will put an end to the question. 
    You trying to say that I cant buy a Lasher from the store and sell it for UO Gold?   :D
    I'm not saying that at all, I'm just saying I would like an answer, from someone qualified to give it. NOT someone's OPINION. It's not rocket science!
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • Garth_GreyGarth_Grey Posts: 1,175
    KHAN said:
    Pawain said:
    KHAN said:
    Mariah said:
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. I can't speak for current situations, but I am aware that in the past some codes were removed from players' accounts because they had been bought with fake, or stolen, credit cards.  This information was made public at the time, and I'm sure there are a few players with memories as long as mine who can confirm that.
    You can do it, but it's at your own risk.
    'Fraudulently obtained' doesn't refer to you buying them for gold, but to how they were obtained in the first place. Says who? Is this your opinion, or fact? This is where the  I would prefer a DEV to answer the question please. A simple yes , or no, will take about 2 seconds, and will put an end to the question. 
    You trying to say that I cant buy a Lasher from the store and sell it for UO Gold?   :D
    I'm not saying that at all, I'm just saying I would like an answer, from someone qualified to give it. NOT someone's OPINION.
    It's not a policy that EA/BS condones or promotes so you're not going to get any answer other than Mariahs, which should have been enough . If you want to buy a code from someone for in game gold, then do it, it's that simple. If you're afraid that you're breaking some law and will get admonished or banned, I wouldn't worry about that, unless you're selling fake codes, which none of us think you are. If you're looking for absolution for your potential "omg is it illegal" act, none of us really care what you do in game. At some point in life you need to make up your own mind. Illegal means, doing so breaks a law of some sort. There is no current law governing this type of ingame activity, but there's also no warranty or guarantee in regards to the transactions outcome.
    You and Several Others like this.


    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    It seems like some people are getting their "feathers ruffled".

    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
This discussion has been closed.